 All right. I have the top of the hour. So let's begin. Let me welcome everybody. Welcome to the future transfer room I'm delighted to see you all here today We have two fantastic guests on the vital subject and I'm absolutely pleased to be able to do this today My name is Brian Alexander. I'm your host. I'm the forum's creator I'm your chief cat herder for the next hour and I'm really looking forward to our conversation We've been talking about strategy in a higher education since we launched almost six years ago We've touched on it in various subjects. We've hosted campus leaders from vice presidents of various sorts Provost and deans more than a few presidents and a couple of trustees now I'm just delighted to ensure these Joey King and Brian Mitchell Now this is partly because I know them as writers and I've used their previous book on how to run a university in some of my Classes and it goes over really well I strongly recommend that book for Johns Hopkins and this new book on leadership and strict strategic leadership Also from Johns Hopkins is an essential way of looking ahead and how we can run and manage and take Institutions forward through a very chaotic future now. I also have to confess on a personal level. I've known Joey for years We work together in the National Institute for Technology and Liberal Education And it was a delight to work with them So even more so it's a delight to welcome them back on stage So first of all, let me beam Joey on stage so you can get a sense of who this character is and we can start a conversation Welcome Joey Hi there, Brian. It's good to be here. Well, it's good to see you. Where are you today? I'm just here at home. I put the tie on for the occasion, but don't worry. I got slippers on underneath We'll take your word for the latter We're glad to see you it Joey We I talked a little bit about the past but our forum is about the future and that's how we like to have people introduce themselves What are you looking forward to for the next year? What are you planning on working on and and what ideas are up of top of mind for you in 2022? You know, I think probably the one that's that's most on my mind is a lot of us have been worried about 2026 and Nathan Graus Cliff of enrollment, but you know since 2019 Enrollments down six six point six percent according to the Washington Post this morning. I think I'm worried about those trends Particularly at the community college level. Yes, it's just it's a very troubling trend Here in Arkansas community colleges have lost about 18 percent in the last couple of years and you know, I think at a time when when when education and And civility and the things that you learn in college, frankly are becoming so critical Having fewer and fewer people going is not it's not a good trend. So that's that's probably the thing I'm thinking about most this year Understood and that's a deep deeply laid long-running trend. That's not gonna go away with a flick of a switch Thank you. Thank you. And and but we've had Nathan Graus a guest previously in the session His major book on demographics of higher education. I strongly strongly recommend Well, no, we have Joey here tie fuzzy slippers and all let me add another Brian because we need to Brian's to be able to balance one joy Let's see Brian Hello Where are you this morning? Where this afternoon? I'm actually in Arlington, Virginia just across the river from from Washington. Oh, very good Very good. We'll have to drive over and see you once the plagues ups being a pandemic I'll be a lovely and I appreciate the product placement you have behind your left arm. That's Well, John Hopkins to be pleased I did that that's why I did I think you'll find I think you find they are Brian I have to say setting aside the terrible problem of spelling in your first name What are you? What are you planning on working on for the next year? What are the big projects or the big ideas that are top of mind for you? Well, if you think about it, we've done two books together through Hopkins The first book was a kind of primer on how to run a college a kind of Book that set the the notion that there are three inflection points in American higher education first during the American Civil War with 750,000 potential college found dead the second during the Great Depression and World War two as you might expect and the third now The second book which is the book we're here to talk about today is leadership matters And this takes a look at that sort of third inflection point as the starting point for this book and asked Okay, how does one respond then to the third point which is a combination of the Great Recession the collapse of the tuition revenue model and COVID in the post-pandemic era that we'll all be facing What worries me clearly is the way things are going whether or not colleges and universities are going to remain Sustainable places at least as they define themselves today So I think what would interest me in terms of writing and thinking as we go forward Is a conversation between and among thought-meeters college and university presidents and others on the big important points of the day and To see what they're thinking and then try to interpret what we're hearing and then offer our own perspective on That would be a fascinating conversation to have Just I think so I think so offhand. I'd be delighted to help host some of it We can do that in this form. Thank you Yeah, we we you can see on the screen. There's three of us We can actually cram six people on here at a time And that and the conversation flows very smoothly depending on the president Well, we know who those people are already Well, that's that's what a book is for as anonymity Friends if you're if you're new to the future transform My role here is not to be the inquisitor, but just to be the facilitator I'm going to ask a couple of questions for our great guests And then it's over to you to hear your questions and thoughts So as we start talking start thinking about what questions you'd like to put to them Maybe in terms of demographics, for example, maybe in terms of presidential level thinking This is your form and your venue And I I'd like to begin by asking both of you About the trend that Joey articulated this morning that I've also been blogging about which is the question of enrollment For various reasons. It looks like higher education enrollment has been declining for 10 years Slightly year by year until the pandemic and then struck the two and a half three and a half percent The past two years each So a question I wonder is has America just changed course on the idea that we want higher education for everyone And that's what we grew up with the idea that the more people the more college the better But have we just had a kind of quiet sea change and we're going to start backing away from that Well, I'll go ahead and start. I I don't know if it's if it's a national Decision making or if it's really just a combination of demographic factors I mean, we're seeing more first-generation students than ever When you come from a family, I'm a first-generation student myself And you know when you come from a family that's not familiar with higher ed It makes Getting engaged in that process all the harder and I think When we throw prices up even state University prices that for most families seem shockingly high So private institutions like Brian and I have run Are struggling mildly with that You know, we get in a situation where we're we're having to describe a value proposition which we absolutely believe in but You know families are skeptical because it is more money than they've probably spent on anything but a house And many of them don't have houses, you know, so it it really is a challenge I I think these these factors are driving it, you know, kind of separate Entities, but together it turns into a really difficult challenge Yeah, I'll pick up Brian a little bit on what Joey's saying. Um, I'm a I'm a graduate degree guy in history And I'm a strong liberal arts. I'm also a boston guy. I guess since I just said liberal arts Liberal arts guy as well. I believe that that's fundamentally the core of what American education should It should exhibit is its kind of bedrock analysis That being said the demographic the demographics are also driven by the realities of the situation And candidly the tuition revenue model is failing now it fails in different ways. It fails because of lack of public support it fails because Consumers are voting with their feet and moving to community colleges From private colleges and universities and estimated 52 or more Of the first time first year experiences begin now at community colleges, which draws down that market And then finally even in the research universities the what the patterns of support for research universities are changing are changing substantially So the question then becomes if the revenue models are not working and the demographics are working against them What does the the trend suggests and you know, it's it's a bit ominous The the presence of something I support which is online education Can be both good and bad the move towards certificate degrees over Certificates rather over degree granting institutions is of real concern And as we move through this third inflection point Those are factors that have to be considered because the way on what market exists For colleges and universities as they seek to attract students Again this inflection point has all kinds of possibilities to it Friends you can see what a rich vein of thought we have embodied and joey and brian Let me stop asking questions and start picking up yours to begin with we have uh dolla clark coming to us from across the atlantic And he asks we've had a tsunami of leadership books courses and talks So why is there so little of it higher education has falling enrollment ridiculous costs and you need to go to college to be civil Wow Joe you want to go first? Sure, I mean, I think you know, one of the things that that really troubles us As we study higher education is you know leadership in colleges and universities is very different from practically any other Industry in that it's it's driven by shared governance. So you've got these these these three sets of potential leaders And you know, I think that we have been watching boards of trustees and faculty Not being as engaged in this leadership process as they should We've certainly always had the problem of having presidents and administrators who are overly zealous about their leadership role but You know now that we're dealing with these sort of existential challenges and I felt this great deal during covid You know Just convening meetings isn't enough. I mean these different governing bodies have to be equal to the task of stepping up and leading And you know, I think that that's probably the most troubling trend is that on many campuses That's not happening either. It's not happening because it's broken somehow or the those governors Just aren't interested in taking on that responsibility Yeah, I think joey raises a good point. Um governance is Is something that is unique and idiosyncratic to american higher education Um The weakest link in governance is where the ultimate responsibilities lies Lives rather in terms of the direction of the institution. That's what the trustees. They're voluntary. They come in three or four times a year They're not particularly well trained and they're badly informed We also have a public relations disaster that is compounded by social media And if you look at various roles, we'll just pick on the president as an example Somebody somebody asked me once what a president was and I said he he or she had a corporate title Trying to act like a 19th century political ward boss dispensing favors. I'll try to manage a medieval craft guild It's extremely difficult to to sort of understand that in fact, it's not a corporate job But at the same time we joey and I argue in the book that there are three types of presidents Each one appropriate depending upon circumstances The first is the presider The second is the change agent and the third is the strategist so To answer the question directly We believe and what we argue in the book is that while all three may be appropriate at least in the shorter midterm Over the long term It's the strategist that really has to step forward in order to answer your question correctly The the problem was we've often had presider presidents We haven't had nor have they've been encouraged to be the kinds of strategists. They must become it at the third inflection corner presiders in chief Donald Clark just raised his hand. So let me put him on stage so he can You can follow up on this Greetings, sir either Yeah, just a couple of comments really I mean I was I was sort of taken aback by that and the idea that one has to go to college to learn these You know middle-class skills of being polite and civil-wide, which I absolutely disagree with because I think we've created a graduate class and that comment Was part of this that looks down on other people in a funny sort of way as if they were lesser beings I don't think that's leadership. And in fact, I think many of the leadership books these bromides about, you know A trust and listening. It's all abstract nouns and I agree with professor Pfeffer Stamford. He's very famous book on leadership That the leadership industry has been the problem here pumping people up To have this arrogant view of the people who don't go to college causing huge social divisions Trump Brexit the g-league on france And I think the problem around leadership is the arrogance of higher education And these are the people who have created a system that is ridiculously expensive That is selective that is exclusive that is built small city states by adding sports And I think we're just you know to hide under the cloak of governance and blame social media Or blame the trustees is to avoid the central problem, which is a lack of competence You know, I think you're honest. I think that's what you're trying to address here But that's the real problem here a combination of arrogance that you that that going to college is everything in life And that the rest of the world is As the other half as it were in fact more than half the majority people are down upon And secondly the driving of this sector into ridiculous price models Almost 1.7 trillion of federal debt. This is is bizarre to me What do you think joey and try I'll go ahead and start I The point that I was making about civics was really the fact that we stopped teaching at the united states to take through 12 level and so we can't expect Students not to know anything about civics or understand it if we don't teach it at all And in fact many times many students only encounter it in the core curriculum in college Um, you know, and that's a that's a failing. I think of k through 12 curriculum As far as as you know the sort of military industrial complex universities I agree with you. I think that you know, they become everything But focused on their core educational vision and you know for some for some good and some bad I mean only a good medical research happens because you know large universities are doing lots of medical research, but you know that That notion of driving the cost model through an institution that is Focus far beyond its original mission is is troubling and I I agree with you I think that you know, it's creating Cost models that are beyond unsustainable and you know, we can't just keep staring at people and saying Why don't you think this is worth it? Because it's you know, they can't they just can't possibly afford it. So Brian, I think you probably have some Well, and first of all, Joey, I agree with you on the civics argument I think that there are plenty of competent people in American higher education and in Education globally and I think the situation varies depending upon what global setting what particular educational institution you're associated with Um You know the the joke is the the air smells different at Stanford And there's an argument to be made there to support your position At the same time, um, I'm not sure it's a question of arrogance I think it's a question it's a question of a collapse of the university model in terms of how it's financed And I think in some respects in the third inflection point the issue will tend to take care of itself because although there is a growing Cognitive dissonance and a growing chasm between the very rich schools And the the poorest schools I can say having represented 90 of the Pennsylvania in an earlier job That among the little catholic schools and among the smaller less well endowed schools and colleges in Pennsylvania A great deal of good work in terms of getting students at an affordable level With an affordable debt level As they graduate through an education that gives them the same kind of promise that That the american west provided for immigrants in the 19th century in terms of the land they could own Makes a certain amount of sense in those kinds of places So it isn't a problem that is uniform across the board. It's a problem that is Specific almost to location type of institution and the overall and overriding situation Which is the collapse of the financing of what you're arguing Just a quick clarification question. Brian when you said that This may to an extent take care of itself Are are you envisioning that the Local and regional colleges and universities might mutate rapidly in order to serve their conditions Or do you instead envision them just going out of business? I don't I think the answer is yes and yes They don't have a choice So they're going to have to adapt or they're going to either merge or they're going to close But the one thing that it's you know, there is a the national high rate associations make a case that I always think is Long when they say it's very hard to kill a college. It isn't hard to kill a college. It just takes time but time for some of them is running out and For those institutions that are sustainable and adaptable They're often the small less endowed colleges because they have to be more creative And I'll just say I'll just say very quickly look what's happening in Pennsylvania For example among the public sector the state system colleges and universities Which are going through also merges is beginning beginning to see the the the seeding of change Donald thank you for the great question I put a link to your blog in the chat because it's a terrific blog And I hope you have a good night there on the nighttime side of the atlantic Brian and joey. Thank you for superb superb answers friends, if you're new to the forum Those were two examples of text questions and video questions So just click the raised hand if you want to follow donald I don't know if you can beat his wonderful scott's accent, but you can try Or put in more questions in the in the q&a box And we've got a really really good one from uh, raj did a second young at momloth university And he asks He asks Could the panelists comment on a bombastic and intentionally provocative statement that a liberal education is a luxury this generation can no longer afford Is the joyless pursuit of money the future good question too Joey I I had the last comment you want to take that one maybe Well, you know, I think as presidents of liberal arts colleges. We we endlessly Are components of liberal education and liberal arts. I don't think that they should be a luxury I do think we do ourselves a tremendous disservice when we talk about them though because I think we talk about them in ways That sound elitist and or are elitist And in fact, you know, what we really should be focused on is what what we mean by those skills that underlie you know a knowledge of the humanities and and Writing and speaking well and and the things that we we actually intend to do unless uh, you know Under that rubric of liberal arts. I mean, I think I'm not, you know, I'm not the first to observe But there's been some great observations that it's like the worst branding ever It has the word liberal in it and it has the word arts in it which in the united states I don't know that you could pick two words that would make that worse Um, we all we all know that that's not where those words come from or why we use them But when you get to the point having to explain that you basically lost the argument Joey had a good piece recently on the liberal arts. So I want to call attention to that. I'll say very quickly Liberal arts is not it's not about being liberal and it's not about being the arts to pick up on Joey's point It's about the ability. It's the way I would argue it if I were arguing in a in a public setting for one of the institutions I used to serve I would say liberal arts really it's about the ability to articulate to write To apply quantitative methods to use technology and to work in a collaborative setting And if you're arguing in fact to our colleague at Monmouth today if you're arguing in fact for the liberal arts Who would oppose that? Isn't that isn't that the purpose and function of what we do? As as educators in a post-secondary setting And if you can get past the politicization of it you can begin to understand that that's the core the bedrock As I said in an earlier comment of what we're trying to do Well, thank you. Thank you. Raj. Thank you for the very pointed question and Thank you gentlemen for the answer. We have more questions coming down the pike And I want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to share theirs Here's one coming from another Virginian This is mark rush at washington lee who says just a comment on the luxury reference I find it peculiar ironic when I read an article in chronicle of high red Telling the students that english majors make as much money as accounting majors That's not a question so much as a comment I mean is I I guess mark, please correct me if I'm wrong But but you're seeing that this seems to be how we think of higher red In terms of what roge called the joy the first aid of money That are you seeing that organizations like the chronicle or at least people writing like that are Making that case that we are really profoundly about the marketplace Well, well mark shoes on that one. Now. He's probably sorry he asked Let me let me share a few more questions that come in. This is from university south dakota Karen kar She asks the tuition revenue model has been broken for years. It is now going to be addressed by external stakeholders Why have higher education leaders not addressed it? Good question Sure, I'm happy to start with that. I mean first of all, remember this is a creeping disease I mean the cost disease was diagnosed, you know decades ago about the arts and higher ed a number of other similar sorts of Of operations that are mainly dependent on human capital But you know our costs aren't entirely driven by that, you know, we look at the higher education price index So-called happy And we see that we we have a we have an industry where those costs go up about twice as much as as fast as inflation And you know, I think that over 10 20 30 years and you're now, you know, radically Deviated from the inflationary rate. So that's that's one part of it. The other part is the cost disease Is true, um, you know, as bill bone would say It takes six minutes and 29 seconds to play a quartet with four musicians now as it did in, you know 1787 the problem was those musicians are more expensive Uh, and you know, that's that's the critical element here Now that's not I don't want to be the apologist for ignoring this. I think I mean I think that we were recipients of bad advice through the years from from from a lot of people in regard to Where those price inflection points would could go and how much you could actually expect as far as as families abilities to afford higher education And we let that drive decision making whether it be capital expenses or you know, kind of runaway You know student life perks and country club campuses that were not wise And they're not sustainable and worse than that now. They're becoming old and need to be fixed or removed so, you know, there's all those things going on and But it's my final comment is, you know, the other thing that's been happening is the average Tenure of presidents and provost has been getting shorter and shorter It's like in the corporate world when you're rewarded for what happens in the next three or four quarters You're not worried about what somebody's going to inherit 20 or 30 years from now Good point I'll I'll say two things. I want to respond to the washington and and lee colleague Principally because I have two sons and both are graduates in history From washington and lee and full pays I might add. Well, I can I can bring him up on stage It's just to yeah, just to sort of comment on that the notion of english and accounting majors Um, we felt strongly that the children should get a good education. We thought washington and lee was a good place It's where they wanted to go and we were determined to have them go wherever they wanted At the same time if you look at the chronicle in other places America is a competitive situation and gaming Is the rule think of the u.s. News and war report ratings are the leading example It's wrong it is wrong because you know, I When bucknell won the uh 2005 patriot league championship, I think I forget where it's quoted. Los angeles times are someplace I'm not sure where but I said these are the poets Uh and the scientists and the engineers who come to play basketball And I said that deliberately because I wanted to make that point Which is I think the point that you're trying to make there's a need In in a book called leadership matters is a need for us As I think we do to call out the fact that those are the kinds of comments Arguably that american high-ride leadership should be making to our colleague from south dakota You know, I'd say it's it's a history. It's a history lesson If you look at the way that budgets worked As the vietnam war began and college applications began to increase dramatically. It was these are the expenses So we'll bring revenue up to meet the expenses It was a mum and pop shop in terms of the way it was characterized that began to work Until prices now at least sticker prices are approaching 75 to 80 thousand dollars per year If that's the case that then becomes a question as to what's fueling at joey's point is a really good point In fact, we're not only seeing that in fact there are There are climbing rock walls rock wall climbing rock walls rock walls, I guess for which you can call Climbing walls. Thank you climbing walls. Uh, but they're also now fully depreciated dorms that are cash cows That are helping to support to support the undergraduate or even graduate in some cases education That while they're fully depreciated, they're also in terrible need of repair And so we've got the situation now where the tuition model doesn't support Support the kinds of qualitative and quantitative changes that are necessary to move to to move it forward So I'd say two things first of all it is as joey suggested incremental It's now reached the crisis point the third inflection point and in addition to that We're now seeing all the sort of week underbelly starting to come come out to the forefront and we'll pay a dear price first Wow Well said brian Mark, I brought you up so you can respond. Uh, do you want to? I don't know what to respond to that was a lot, but which part of boston you're from Uh, I'm from originally from lowell. Although I until september 21st. I lived downtown. We just moved to allington in september I grew up in boston I don't know if you can see there's a Several bits of redsox paraphernalia back there in the background. Yeah One of the more intelligent folks on the on the call today, clearly Well, thanks Okay Um, you know the comment I offered, um Was really one. I mean, I hope it didn't come across the wrong way But I find it terribly ironic because so much of the complaints in many cases About american model of higher education is the pursuit of the buck even though it is becoming Extraordinarily expensive and mom and pop certainly do want to return an investment um, and I just find it ironic that Some apartments who seem to be struggling do make the case that well, we're all against that We'd like to point out that you can judge us as wealthy Um with an english degree or whatnot and so the message becomes the same. I Unfortunately, uh, I find Julia I post another comment though. I just wanted to ask this. Um, you know, so is perhaps the european model better I mean do or is the american tradition of Beautiful expensive to maintain campuses really becoming sort of a thing in the past. Do we need to become Uh, a country full of more cosmopolitan community based or a university is where you know sports is out sorts Sports is out sorts to clubs The choir is actually in the town. Uh, you grow up you go to school nearby Um, this would be much more affordable. It would wreak havoc with diversity, of course Washington only would never diversify Pomona would Um, but if we think about it, uh, what we're paying for is, uh, you know, the trappings and the desert rata Of the american higher ed, you know, environment, which are very very expensive European schools cosmopolitan schools don't have this problem Joe you want to Joe you want to respond to it? Well, yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that I think that you're going to see a lot of change in that regard I think that those sorts of decisions are going to be a thing of the past at most institutions and even the best endowed ones Will start to say to themselves. We should be using the fruits of those endowments for The things that we think are critical to our our mission moving forward and most of that is going to be, uh, Human capital. I mean it just is and so that you know, what brian said earlier is what both of us believe When we talk about these inflection points is in a way Like an ice age they solve themselves, right? They they they force decisions and decision making that wasn't happening before They force leaders to be different and you know, I agree that all these books about leadership platitudes And that's what we tried not to do here are kind of ridiculous Uh We believe that the actual Stress that's going to be applied to the higher end system will create the leadership that will be needed But it but it's beyond just the president provost. It's all the other Parts of shared governance. They're going to have to also Step up and and I think that in a way They were muted when a lot of these ridiculous, uh, you know climbing all decisions were made Yeah, I guess I guess what I'd say is there's going to be a Uh chasm between the haves and have nots in American higher education The washington and lees and the places I represented like bucknell. They're always going to be the places that Really have really nice dorm rooms and really good libraries and incredible athletic facilities in and members of the patriot league Which in bucknell's case, for example Now there will be divisions among that for example as you may know in division three sports There is but there was an active decision as long as a decade or more ago even 20 years ago That sort of took the two levels of division three where the the sort of scholar athlete has its best representation And it said, you know, we want to be a certain type of scholar athletes who we do not want to go to It's a division two or division one model and there's The any the nca is like the papacy. It's it's it's a place you can go into but never fully understand And so there is that kind of question However, there were also changes beginning to occur and joey you and I were talking about like of places recently like national university A place where it's a little bit closer to the european model because it's more online It's more direct. There's not a huge campus infrastructure Those kinds of places are going to become more important in this country because there will be mergers. There will be acquisitions There will be adapt adaptations. There will be Certain kinds of levels of a particular type of creativity And there will be need And the thing I worry about is that that can change the notion of what a degree means In terms of looking at the overall perspective of what happens in higher education We really do think that calling it a third inflection point is accurate for just that reason This is this is very very rich bark. Obviously your your boston brain has has kicked us up a notch and we appreciate that Let me uh, let me just focus a couple of questions in on one theme that has come up And this is uh, this is referring not to the c change joey that you were calling for but the The gap between uh halves and halves not halves and have nots We had a quick follow question from the awesome steve airman Who uh, who asked us to uh Think about this What fraction of students are interested in the half schools as you've described them? So what what proportion of students are interested in the elites? Joe you want to take that or you want me to I'm gonna let you take it I'd say uh, let's answer it from the college university's perspective Uh, they're going after the same top 10 percent of the country So the answer to the proportion from the college and university side is the same kid from the same demographic marker from the same Six high schools in a particular geographic region In answer to the question from the student perspective I think that's very hard to tell because the case and it's a point show we raised earlier the case is so muddled Uh in terms of where they should go in for what reasons I don't think a 17 or 18 year old Who comes to when I was serving as a college university president who comes to me as they would sometimes and says I want to be a cardiologist necessarily fully understands what that means Where necessarily should even be thinking that at 17 or 18 So the larger question then becomes well, what is the value to that individual student? The perspective the percentage is therefore very hard to define because the student And the intelligent not the intelligence the student but the maturity of the of the Thought process that the student goes into making a decision Is often not it's not really there yet. And so it's hard to say I So many of my friends from rural massachusetts where I grew up wanted to play football or basketball That's why they went to college So it's it's really hard to say joey sure Well, I yeah, I think you're right and I think that you know But we are seeing some some fairly substantial change in the trends there. I think testing Is I mean standardized testing the ACT and SAT The dynamic of their controlling your destiny in regard particularly to elite institutions has changed More than I ever thought possible honestly At least in the short term it uh, you know, my daughter applied for college during the The pandemic and she wasn't interested in sending scores to anybody. Uh, even though she had them You know, and and they were all optional and I think you know We know, you know, we're not naive. We know that the elite institutions have other ways of determining Uh capabilities and you know, they have their own their other own ways to make those profiles But for the vast majority of students, that's a very very big difference that it's not all positive You know, I've run non elite institutions and you know Those scores for us were actually critical in understanding where the student was as far as their ability to do the work That was embodied in our curriculum. So, you know, uh, I think that that they may become more of a diagnostic tool But they really have changed in the way that they affect admission and you know, it that's a fascinating change Thank you. That's a that's a good run from both of you at this question. Let's let's take us a little further forward Uh, Tom Haymes had a question along these lines as well about the disconnect Tom, why don't you uh, why don't you join us? Hello sir Hey, so I'm going a little further out in the whole um Have not spectrum here And the question, uh, I sort of have is that you know, a lot of I teach at community college And the struggles my students have now there's significant economic struggles There's significant connectivity struggles. There's a lot of disruption that happens in their lives But there's also a cultural struggle, which I think often gets overlooked Um, these students come from schools in many cases that do not prepare them for a college experience and um, they're then taught by Uh professors even at a community college level That come out of an experience more akin to what you'd get at a liberal arts college or an elite university or upper-tier public public institutions And this is the way college is done Right and that that whole wheel is very unapproachable for them I have so many students who sort of try to grab onto the ride But then fall off because they don't understand the point to what they're doing And um, and that's because those students who are have learned how to learn Understand the point to what they're doing much more so Uh, at least know how to play the game to a point where they start to it starts to make sense to them But these students are so culturally disconnected from the experience of school As first-time college students as students who only see college through the perspective of the outsider And very quickly come to the conclusion of oh, this is not for me And then fall off You know, that's the big thing with commit with with these with with uh First timers, especially is not not getting in It's easy to get into a community college. It's staying in It's it's maintaining that uh retention through one semester persistent from one semester to the next um I was wondering if you guys could speak to that that cultural aspect of higher education I mean, I came from it absolutely I went to a large First line public university of texas and I went to graduate school where where brian spends part of his time at georgetown I mean these were not You know, i'm not i'm not a product of the community college system But i've had to learn really hard lessons that i am not my students And I think that's very typical about them a lot of professors is that We we our background our environment or educational experience is not that of our students So how do we bridge that gap because I think that's that cultural gap often gets overlooked. It's not just about money I think you're you're right on. I mean the last two institutions. I've I've worked at We're majority first generation students and We in the selection of faculty and particularly in the in the tenuring process We're absolutely focused on their ability to teach The sort of students that we were called to serve and you know, and there were plenty Who came and couldn't I mean we we in fact Tended to to go to uh to short term You know to your contracts to begin with just because there were so many You know faculty who come into that model who like many of us, you know came from a Tradition where you know, we went to more rigorous and elite institutions and they just had to learn that, you know These are students many of them functionally Were barely literate. I mean from that standpoint of a college level and you know, if the faculty weren't willing to put in the time to not only do that remediation and the time to closely monitor those students and and and help them over the hurdles They weren't the right faculty and that's just that's a reality that I think More and more institutions are going to grapple with you know, some institutions are bringing on, you know, teaching faculty I you know in a way. I really support that in another way. I think it's a terrible trend But you know, we're not here to debate that for now But I do think it's a it's a realization of the difficulties of having students who are Much less prepared and or don't understand how this credential is connected to why am I taking this riding class? I mean, how did those even connect? Tom, I want to ask you a question because it would help me provide an answer in In addition to what you always said Why did they come to a community college? What brings a student to a community college? They don't understand where they're getting to but how did they get there in the first place? Hmm. I think a lot of times there's an expectation that the only way you get yourself out of your current predicament is by getting a college degree Right, but they have no idea what that means and and why why that's the case No one's ever explained it to them and there's also an incredible amount of pressure just to sort of shepherd them through So if they ultimately get that college degree and I worry about them when they get out of that experience Not having the skills when they hit an upper level college Or in the in the job market as a whole that they don't have the thinking skills that people expect of people Who have a college degree now? That's another set of issues Which isn't unique to you to community colleges either is that you know We're graduating a lot of people with lousy critical thinking and writing skills and the kind of things you expect to get out of But it's worse for them in some ways Well, you know, I'll go back to my earlier assessment Frederick Jackson Turner's argument that the the american west provided a safety valve for the immigrants that came across education Oh, second of education provides the same level of safety valve your argument is that the students are pragmatic But uninformed which is an interesting argument and I think the correct one to make I think it starts at the at the high school level in terms of counseling I think it goes to the education level in terms of how well the students are prepared Almost the pre-preparation before they sit in class that first day I think it goes to the financial aid practice I'm recently living in boston for 10 or 11 years and we all know what the scandals were when the boston global uncovered the fact that Tens of thousands of dollars were being Misused because the students would acquire the debt Simply because it was an easy way to acquire the debt and pay living expenses And so they began to use the system in the wrong kinds of ways I think joey's point about hiring is absolutely critical And then I was I'll use boston again at bunker hill. It's a thousand students per a college counselor When you have that kind of representation and that kind of management in terms of how you handle your students It's a recipe for disaster Absolutely, and there's no there's no it doesn't surprise me at all that community colleges are seeing this this hit in enrollment uh because They're like it's too hard. I can't do this with everything's going on in my life You know it was it seems like it's a bet on the future I have to deal with my present right now I think that's part of it But I also think there's a certain amount of well my buddy joe went and he lasted for one semester And all they did was talk about these highfalutin concepts that make no difference to his daily existence Why should I waste my time and money on this? Back to the uh Yeah That's a concern Tom, thank you so much. Um It's always good to see you um and great answer brian I I I'm reminded of tressy mcmillan codham's book on uh for-profit education called lower ed Where she has the great idea of the college gospel and uh, it's uh going to college is the thing you do because it will make you better um We have a question that follows up on some of these points from greg britain Like I said the hardest working editor in higher education and greg uh Greg brings us back to presidential leadership here thus Given the challenges that higher education faces. What are the qualities you should be looking for in presidential forces? Joey I've been out of it for a while. I think that's a question for you But before we do joey greg leadership matters Good book. I should get this You know, I think that it comes back to what has always, you know Been important when you when you go to hire a president and that that is, you know fit for the mission uh Really strong understanding and belief in shared governance um You know Sort of the selflessness that's hard to measure But you know the best presidents I know have it in that, you know They're the last to talk about themselves. They talk about their institutions They take responsibility for problems and they rarely take responsibility for the good things that happen and you know, it's It's no surprise that they're you know The presidents that really do well and that are very much respected are the best colleagues So, you know, I think that the committees need to focus on that I mean, there's clearly the credentials and there's all the things that are on the cv But you know, don't go don't go calling people, you know, at other institutions and asking them what this person was like because Generally, you're going to get an axe grinder You know Be fair to them like you would with any colleague and you know, let the process do its do its work and do it well um And and I think that that will yield a successful president but um In the coming, you know, 10 to 20 years where these Many of these These problems and issues we're seeing are going to become real crises I think we need to think about beyond just, you know, all those qualities What sort of leader are they and you know, we we've broken it down into, you know, three types You know presiders change agents and what we call strategic visionaries and strategists Uh, I I recognize that's a very reductionist view but it's useful because I think that there's institutions encounter more critical issues and issues that haven't Been in there in in their realm of understanding or realm of dealing with With that sort of difficulty Um, you know, they're going to need the kind of leaders that can tackle that and It's going to I mean, I hate to say it's probably going to show up a good number of presidents in the process either because they're going to have to do things that are very difficult or unpopular or they're just going to Burn out as a part of the process which is unfortunate, but You know, I think that that's that's really what what committees should be looking for Uh, I you know, I think that they they should be, you know, very diligent when reviewing CVs and backgrounds but you know those soft qualities of actual leadership and collegiality and and and Being good shared governors Are the things that they really need to be sessing out in that process more than they might have been in the past Nice answer very good. Thank you. Greg for the uh, uh pointed question and thank you, uh, Joey for the very careful answer in the in the chat We have as always a perceptive comment from greg station He says fit to or fit for the institutional mission sounds like what gets missed in the left successful president But an unclear mission might be part of the problem Uh, and then uh, George because he's in california sites curse california master plan. He has to do it Which is important. Um, we have a follow-up question on this Back from roge again, uh, who asks for a president's perspective or some qualities you would like to see in your program Well, I'll start. Um, ron and I are in agreement that we think provost is the hardest job on campus And so The first thing i'd like for in provost is somebody who's equal to that task because they're I mean You could just change the title of a thankless job. I mean it is it is a very very difficult job it is It's critical of the shared governance process because they stand on both sides Typically if you've had a tenured a faculty member who's become provost and you know, they're now wearing both the faculty and an administrator hat and You know, they're getting trustees calling them out of the blue. Uh, so they're really getting it from all three sides and you know, it uh, it's something that that most department chairs frankly and division chairs don't have the experience doing so that's why many provosts don't last long Um, and why many who are good at it, you know, look at the presidency and say no, thanks You know, that that's not the that's not the sort of thing I want to take on so Uh, that's what I look for ron Well, I think joey you will emphasize the correct point which we both agree that provosts have the most difficult positions of any senior officer at ecology university Um, I think provosts have to be comfortable with academics and I know that sounds silly, but if you understand what I mean It's necessary to understand. It's necessary to be comfortable in your own skin Because it is precisely that such a difficult job. I also think the provost is the place where good things get done The provost office, I guess is more specifically correct Where good things get done and where what we talk about in terms of some of Innovation which is the implementation of a good idea into the mainstream construct of what ecology university does Where innovation and creativity can occur You know, I'm not sure if uh, I were sitting president I'm not sure whether it's more important to give the president discretionary money or the provost Um, because the provost if you believe that academics is the core which I do of what ecology university does The provost really can I'll use a marketing term can build the brand Can really can really be the the one who articulates the case for the liberal axis I tried to define it earlier who can build the case for excellence quality and coherence And I think if that's the case then you have to look very carefully at a provost and you can see Why provost don't want to become president because the president is somebody who has A tremendous breath, but very little depth by next by virtue of what she or he does And you lose that if you move from provost to presidency Just in the in the chat greg shutman pointed out uva's provost was just named president of penn after only two years of their job So maybe that provost wanted some of that depth change Well, the I'll just say that very often there are breeding grounds if you're in and if you're in a not only an elite institution, but if you're in an id institution that Attracts I think often wrongly, although probably not in this case that attracts wrongly the Um that person to the presidency or for example of a good liberal arts college because he has or she has the dark It's it's the it's the inner qualities that make You able to skate to where the puck is going to be Not not where you went to school In my uh And one of my Georgetown seminars this semester We had the students play a simulation game where they had to take different parts different roles within a university So we had one student as a president one as a provost one as the head of athletics One the science faculty one the humanities and so on we had about nine students And by far the student playing the provost had the hardest time Uh, he he was he was just really by the end just exhausted And uh, it's good game. Oh very good game. Well, I'll be glad to tell you about later But but later was the point because somehow we have just raced through an hour of conversation We have more questions and more ideas and more ways you want to pick your brains gentlemen, but but we have to pause here for now Let me just ask how can we keep up with the two of you besides buying this great book? How else can we keep up with your thinking and your working? Uh, do you maintain newsletters emails? blogs twitter or do we actually keep stalking you as far as we can? Yeah Brian Well, I think the easiest way to keep up with us. Joey's a senior counselor right now for us as well with us as well And a founder is to just go on the academic innovators website. You'll get all the media that we're doing You'll get the not only the books, but any of the print stuff or any of the commentary in the press And you'll also see how we're trying to affect change. So uh, that website is being reconstructed It'll go live by next monday or tuesday again after being down for about three months. So maybe go there Well, please uh, if if you if you could Brian when it comes up, let me know so I can share it. I will I will thank you Uh, thank you both for a terrific conversation Thank you for being so generous with your thoughts and grappling with a wide range of questions It's been a pleasure hosting both of you. Thank you. Thanks, Brian Well, be safe and take care, but don't go away everybody Please point out what's happening next uh in the forum First of all, uh, we have a whole series of topics coming up as I mentioned before Everything from student debt and public higher education to eco media literacy If you'd like to keep talking about these questions of the gap between haves and haves knots Is leadership actually desirable quality? What the heck is it? Please join us on twitter. Use the hashtag Or tweet at me or the shindig handle Or you can join us on the on my blog bryanallexander.org If you'd like to go back into the past and check out our conversations with previous presidents and provosts and other leaders Uh, just go to tinyurl.com slash fdf archive and subscribe Uh, thank you all for your great questions I really appreciate the boldness and provocation of these questions and your willingness to think deeply together Which I think is a great strength in this year of 2022. I hope you all are working very well I hope you're all above all safe and sound. Please take care. We'll see you next time online Bye. Bye