 It is the 15th of July. This is Docs Office Hours Asia. Topics on the agenda today, action items, news, upcoming change log, look and feel improvements for the Jenkins website, a status report on Google Summer of Code, longstanding pull requests and progress there and more details on modernizing a plugin. Meg, anything else that you'd like to add? That'll do it and I'm gonna abandon you about 20 minutes early. Okay, well, and I think let's go through these items, see which ones are of interest to us and which ones we can just skip over. No progress on action items, sorry about that. News, we released a new LTS this week and we released a new weekly. The weekly still requires Java 11, no Java 8 support and the September baseline will also require Java 11. Now one item- We'll install on Java 17, it will just support Java 17 for other purposes. No, it also supports, we already support Java 17, so- Okay, well, I never know what exactly we mean by when you say it supports Java 17. So I can install Jenkins on top of Java 17 now. You absolutely can. So it requires Java 11 or 17, could you just say? Yeah, exactly, yep. Yeah, we weren't, I wasn't sure that we would get the Java 17 thing in, but it turned out we did. Oh, goody. And oddly enough, the stories are a little surprising there. We're finding the person who's been leading the Java 17 work, Basil Crow, has found that Java 17 is actually, has been on two or three occasions, a source of a backport to fix a problem in Java 11 that affected us. Oh. So it turns out Java 17 actually looks a little better than Java 11. Yeah. So now one more news item, I may need to cancel our meeting in two weeks because I'll be in Los Angeles at the Southern California Linux Expo that night. Oh, okay. And Kosuke Kawaguchi will be there. Oh, wow. Please give him my greetings. I will. I will certainly tell him you said hello. I still get to follow his exploits on Facebook, which is fun. Oh, good. Yeah, so he and Alyssa and I will be there. Great. I love to Alyssa too, I need to drop her. I will certainly tell her you said hello. So next. Tell her to go sour there, we really need her at the Dynatrace. Oh, I certainly will not tell her that. We've got all these conferences and they can't figure how to get the swag out. It's just hysterical and I'm sitting there. I have no idea, call Alyssa. I will certainly not tell her that. She reports to me and there is no possible way I will say that to her. So, all right. Next topic was Jenkins 2.346.3 change log. We don't have a release lead yet. So the release lead hasn't been identified nor have any back ports. Release date is scheduled, it's August 10. And so about July 28th is when we'll need the change log. Just a reminder that it's coming. Okay. Now next topic, I've got a cool demo to show you. This one we've got to see. So here's the, this is a poll request from, dear, I forget his actual name. Priyanshu Singh, who has submitted a poll request to improve the look and feel of the Jenkins.io site. And so let's take a look at the environment to give you a sense of how it looks. Oh my, oh, I like blue so much better than orange. So he's got my heart already. Exactly, it's a, this is a very, very elegant, nice, nice layout. And when we go to any other page, the bar shrinks. Oh. And so it's still, every bit is readable on the other pages. I think it's much more readable than in the old one. That white on dark blue, it's very nice. And that's, I think very attractive. Now, right now we've got one open item, which is the plugin site needs to reuse the markup from the primary site. Right. And it, Gavin Mogan attempted to use this new layout and something went wrong. So we won't merge it yet, but it looks very attractive. Now, there was one change that I've asked for. It was that what he did was in order to give a visual separation, he moved the thing we call the jumbotron one slot lower. And my problem is that, that means the jumbotron is now below the fold. Yup. And we want this thing, because it's the thing that moves, we want it above the fold. Right. So he's proposing, hey, he'll try to put it back. And then we can compare it to see why. He didn't care for it in the upper position because it didn't give any separation between the top segment of the page and the jumbotron. And I understand that, right? This is a visual thing. And the question is, what visual look do we want? Right. You know, really, I don't care. And I have no aesthetic background at all. The color of the documentation, that blue on there, I don't really like that blue against the other blue or the red that's there. The buttons up at the top. Sorry. Oh, you mean these over here? No, no, no underneath the blurb about Ukrainian people. Oh, okay, wait a sec. So yeah, right where your arrow was. Right where your arrow was. Okay, right there. That blue and that red, I find really glaring. Okay, so the download button, you might prefer a different color. And then maybe just a different color. I'm not a red person anyhow. But though, you know, the artists have the color wheels. There are blues and reds that go together. And to me, and the documentation is towards the turquoise, the teal, and it isn't that it clashes, it just isn't pleasant. Well, and now I looking at it, as you mentioned it, it's would it be better if we're in this color that's on this icon? That might be better. Yeah, interesting idea. Or the color of the dark blue, too. Or look at this one. Maybe that's the other. See, now that looks nice. Yeah, so maybe it is that we take that color and put it behind the documentation. Although the other is what if, what if the big button there, I guess it's probably good for that big button to be there because that is just this button, right? Or no, is it? What, where does it go? It goes, not quite. It's, where is it? It goes, I'm not sure how to get to that button. Oh, it goes to, no, huh. That's interesting. So it takes us to a whole overview concept that isn't directly accessible from there. Interesting. Yeah. Though I'm not sure that maybe, maybe it should be, this may highlight another navigation thing. Maybe it should be that this button is going to the exact right location. And this should go to that same location because this table of contents thing is not terribly useful. It's already over here on the left, right? So it doesn't help us much. So maybe let me make myself a note here that we just discovered a navigation flaw. All right, so. Although I might be, I don't know, this is off the top of my head, so I might change my mind. But what you do at the top is almost like a quick reference for experienced people to jump to it faster. And this one might, I don't know if this, you know, the full thing for somebody who's coming in brand new, if this, you know, if landing where you're landing from the big blue button is a better place to land. I'm not sure. Good question, good point. Yeah, so maybe we leave it. Or do something else, because the thing at the top is clearly good for regular experienced users who just want to get to something. Right, this is very fast navigation, right? Now, if I am brand new, if I am Jenkins curious, and I'm just starting to explore, well, I might skip tutorials or something, but if I hit that big blue button, I don't know if I see anything that really tells me, I almost, if I went, if I go in there, what is Jenkins about this documentation? I almost want a path. What should I do next? See for me, I was thinking, I see this page and then I can immediately choose things from the user handbook. Right. Or the tutorials. And so for me, it presents pretty clearly where I go next and I would naturally gravitate towards these or these. But I think you got an interesting question. What's the better way is this something better for expert to say, show me everything so I can search for it? Right. And the darnedest, we're old people. We still are used to books so that you need to know it. You know what the real link is? It's up in the upper right. It says search, it's that little white box. Uh-huh, yeah, right. Good point. So, yeah, but it is something to think about. I mean, do we need the double things? And if we do, what's the purpose of each one? Right. What's the right solution? But we may be obsessing over things that don't matter any house. Well, so I, but I want to grab, I want to grab a picture of what you were suggesting and included in the poll request feedback because I think you've got a good point. That this, okay, so now let's see, let's save that. Prefer another blue or download button. And yeah. Oh, for different documentation. Different blue for documentation and download. I think both of those colors are. And then, yeah, so less jarring red. The problem is I have no color sense, so. I don't have much and I'm really obnoxious because there's a few colors that I really, really hate. Ah, okay. And like orange and pink. Right, so let me grab. I, my sense is you need some talent to pull out their color wheel and find, you know, find a blue and red that look better with that. I love that. I love the color of the black or it's actually, it's not a solid color, it changes, but whatever they call that. Right, right, that gradient. Yeah, the gradient, that's the word. I love the looks of that. Agreed, yeah, okay. There's also something that with red, like you have to be careful in some cultures. Reds have ramifications or something. Oh, okay. Interesting. I mean, for the Chinese, it's really good, but that's an ugly red. Okay, so let me. But all in all, with no changes, big improvement. Oh yeah, very nice. Okay. And so some additional area, a few additional items for your consideration. Let's see. So here, very nice blue on the register for DevOps world. So let's start with the positive, very nice blue here. And now we bring up like the color of the register button. All right. And then less attractive color on the, it was documentation. And what was the other one? Download? Download button, right. Okay, so thank you. Thanks for helping with this. Can we go back and look at the page one more time when you get this done? Absolutely. I have one other thought that I don't know if I think it or not. Okay, which one? I am one, that stuff that's at the top, Jenkins, build great things at any scale, really. And then the Ukrainian, I mean, totally in favor of it, strongly, et cetera, watching poor Oleg suffer through this. But what if the Jumbotron were up there and this were underneath the other stuff? What if you flipped with the Jumbotron in this? See, for me, I would hesitate to do that because I think this message, build great things at any scale, is more important than any one of the messages we put down here. Maybe, yeah. But, or break it up. I mean, yeah, you could have that. And we do have a documentation and download button at the top, but that might be something. But I don't know, what if we had Jenkins, the butler with this flag and the documentation and download buttons a little bit smaller and over to the left and the Jumbotron next to it? Interesting idea, Will. Okay, for us. I'm not good at this, I'm just... Well, maybe, what if... It's an interesting thought. Let me take a slight angle on what you're saying. What if instead of, what if this, this here, this section and the picture were one of the Jumbotron images? So it rotated through, in this case, four things, right? Now, the challenges that then may mislead people in that they don't realize, they arrive and think, oh, the top page is Jenkins stories. And, but it might be the thing if we put this, stop the war and this text in a Jumbotron entry and then move the Jumbotron to the top. Right. I mean, I'm looking, if you, like, this is freeze. I open it until I start scrolling, this is what I see. Right, exactly. And there's nothing there that's that important. Right, right. If you can feel great things at any scale, I don't realize. I have to start reading before I see that. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think it's an interesting thought. Should we merge the Jumbotron? Yeah, I'm not sure how to express it to the creator of the poll request because I'll take this poll request already if we can get it working without combining things. Right, absolutely. It's already such a nice improvement. But the impression I get too from is that, I mean, people have changed, there's a whole epistemological change. People like things that are constantly changing and moving. And, but I get to that page and it's just static. Not all that interesting really. Right, right. And I'm one who goes for the pros and most people today are not. Correct, yeah. But if we converge them, then that would move up this video segment to write underneath the navigation choices. Uh-huh. Although these aren't navigable. Oh, interesting. Okay, so I may need to think about that because I was expecting these to be clickable. Yeah. But then again, maybe not. I mean, those are features more than they are. Yeah. Actually, they're kind of waste of space, aren't they? Well, if I can't navigate with them, I've got to wonder, okay, what are they doing there? But we had them there before. Okay, maybe we should make them navigable. Maybe make them clickable links. Yeah. But even then, I don't know. I mean, if I already know Jenkins, they're not interesting. Not at all, right. If I'm a Jenkins novice, okay, everything says, have you ever gone to a webpage that says, this is really tough to install, but you're gonna level when you're done? Right, no. Everything is easy installation. It's usually a lie. Right, thank you. If you want something that does anything powerful, there's an easy installation that is happy path. Right. Easy configuration, give me a friggin' break. Well, now come on. It's a lot better than cruise control was. Okay. Yeah, if I want to run a Hello World, yeah, on a single server, yeah, that's probably easy configuration. But it's distributed, everything's distributed. We don't say it runs in the cloud. That's the other thing that's the watchword. What do you mean? It's kind of a waste. Well, I think you raise a good point that maybe it's time to revisit this section of the top level page and say, hey, what messages should we be telling there? Because it doesn't, under distributed, tell about the cloud solutions. It doesn't talk about Docker and about, so Docker and Helm and Kubernetes. Kubernetes and all that good stuff. Yeah, so plenty to improve here. Right, I mean, when what happens, click the download button. If you click download, does it just start downloading? No, no, no, it takes you to, because there are just too many choices there and there's information you need to have. Yeah, that's what I was saying though. So if you made the installation a link into the installation, would you take it into the installation documentation or would you take it to the download page? This one, I would take it to this page personally. Yeah. Now, maybe that's not friendly enough, right? But that, because there are... So in some ways, that's friendlier than the download page. But it, I don't know, it's somebody that I work with here that I really, really like is, but he posed that we said, we were starting with, you know, captain, which people don't know. But he's like, he said, let's just stick back and say, I heard the term captain someplace and I came here to find something. So the first thing I want is a snazzy one-liner that grabs my attention. Right. And then, you know, going on and then I want a little more description about what it can do. And then maybe I want a little friendly tutorial. We're Love and Killer Coda, by the way, both the company and the technology. Oh, good. And then I have a little hands-on that that's kind of simple, but it goes through and he did, well, we worked together, we were good at, but there's like, it takes three minutes to get, get kept and all installed and set up in your little environment. And there's stuff in the left frame that you can read some concepts and what the pieces are and what we're going to do. You know, you can do nice things with that. I do that. And then I want to go on to how I install it for real for myself, you know, but he said like, try to think about that whole path. Think about somebody who's coming because we don't have experienced users really yet. We've, you know, it's the, the technology is two years old. Right, right. It's, it's, it's brand new tech. Right. And, and so overwhelmingly, but we've got people coming in, you know, but just to sit back and think, but the Jenkins is of course much more mature and much more. But if I'm, and then, but think about, I hate all this stuff about personas because it's always done by the marketing people and it's always crap. But, but if you think about that, if I'm brand new to Jenkins, I keep hearing about Jenkins, I say, let me go look at it. What do I want to see? What do I need in order? And with all of this stuff, there's tons of information here and I don't know what to read first. I mean, I, when I started out user guide, what I'm thinking about end user, I'm thinking what, how does my mother access Jenkins? We may, you know, for, then we decide user guide is some, you know, building a pipeline to build your stuff, which is, you know, not exactly what I think of as user, but we liked it. So we called it that, you know, but, but even, you know, there, I don't see a place here at the top that said, if you're interested in setting Jenkins up because there's another thing, I just took a new job at a place that uses Jenkins or I'm interviewing and I want to quickly get an oversight. So I don't have to install anything. It's already up and running. I've got to quickly introduce how I'm going to build, make pipelines with it, how I'm going to use it. There's no place here that says, you know, if you want to learn how to build Jenkins pipelines, go here. If, you know, there's no happy path. There's just the documentation, which is huge. And some of it's good and some of it's crap. Yeah, an interesting exercise. But on the other hand, having said this, if this went up like this right now, it's a huge improvement. Cool. I should shut up. We've got more agenda. Well, I think actually we're approaching the end for your time. And we've covered most important things. I think that's, let's call this done for today because I think we've got good feedback what we've provided to Priyanshu and- It's really quick for the recording and because I'm curious and nosy, the update on GSOT because you're coming up. Oh, oh sure. Phase one ends on Monday, right? Actually, yeah, I don't remember when phase one ends, but yeah, so we're at the midpoint or very near the midpoint. It's like 25th, so there's, yeah. Okay. So we've got a new addition to the Jenkins Pipeline page that this doesn't scroll, the left-hand navigation, the table of content stays put. Yay. And we've got search on the Pipeline steps reference page. So when I look for checkout or if I look for milestone, instead of having to search with browser search like this where it's terribly painful, the example for me is this one. When I search here with checkout, I have to search one, two, three, four. It's not until the fourth that I find what I want. And I just did multiple clicks whereas if I use the page search, the built-in search inside the page, oops. Here we go, built-in search inside the page. Check out. It is on page. And I see what the options are. Sometimes, because I go to the fourth one, it's like, well, maybe the second one was what I wanted. Right, exactly. Oh, I was looking for API. And which of these APIs is important? Oh, I want something about Apache. No, well, that's interesting. How about HTTP? There. All right. Yeah, so very, very nice work that Vihon has done. And in addition, he's created a new component that may be reusable in the future as part of the REST API generator that's been a long-time project idea that we've never been able to get to. Oh, wow. Very nice work. Very, very cool. All right, any other topics you want to be sure we get to today? Have you just got one G-Sucker? Oh, no, no, we've got three other projects. Oh, okay. So in addition to those, we've got one on Jenkins File Runner. We've got one on the Plugin Health Score system. Oh. And we've got one on Git, Cache Maintenance Improvement Maintenance. Fabulous. Yeah, so I'm excited about all of them. Good, good. Session next Thursday to present them. Fabulous. All right, well, let's call this done then, Meg. I don't want to make you late for your next meeting. Not at all. And thanks very much. And well, thank you. Kudos to your people doing good work. Excellent. Take care, well, maybe we'll talk next week and maybe not, right? Next week will be fine. It's the following week. Oh, that's right. Yeah, two weeks. Okay, cool. Right. So next week we'll talk for sure.