 Hi, I'm Ross Tafsel from the College of Asia and Pacific here at the Australian National University. I'm here with Malaysian cartoonist Zunar, winner of the International Press Freedom Award and the Cartooning Award for Peace just last month on World Press Freedom Day. Thanks for joining us here Zunar in Canberra. Thank you for having me. Of course it's also some bad news in that you're being charged with sedition in Malaysia for cartoons and for tweets. This was the particular cartoon which you've been charged with sedition over. What kind of state were you in and can you explain this cartoon for us and why there's been such a strong reaction? This cartoon about the judgment on Anwar Ibrahim. Anwar Ibrahim is a very popular opposition leader and he's just been sentenced to five years to prison. People know this is all conspiracy and for me this the sentence is the motive of this sentence is to make sure to prevent Anwar from taking part in next election. And this this is Najib passing It looks like a very heavy political sentence. Yes, it is very heavy. This is why for me I'm very angry this is to show that how we cannot accept this type of sentence. And this is the law in the bin. The law in the bin. So for me this is all scripted, it's all a scripted sentence so that's why the Prime Minister like you said very heavy punishment. Very heavy punishment and you've certainly made enemies of the Barisan Nasional. In this cartoon you I noticed in a number of your cartoons you compare Malaysia's Prime Minister Najib with his father. Malaysia's second Prime Minister came into power in 1970 after the crisis of 1969. Why do you often compare him to his father? Because there are two very different characters. People love Tun Razak because he's the father of Malaysian economy where he introduced so many good policies. Whereas his son, Najib Tun Razak, destroyed everything what his father did. That's why I try to compare. Let's say as an example, Tun Razak he banned communists here. So he's an anti-communist, anti-communist. But come to Najib Razak, recently he banned activists. So he became like communists. So this is how I want this character, people to know those two characters here. In this one you've of course brought in the scandal, the corruption scandal involving Malaysia in the past few years. The 1MDB scandal and 2.6 billion ringer. Why did you choose here to compare him with his father? 30% for the Bumi, 100% for me. When Tun Razak introduced this is DEB, this is 2.6 billion. DEB is a new economic policy to give a 30% chance for Bumi Putra to involve in the economy. Previously the economic sectors are controlled by Chinese. That's why Tun Razak said we introduced this for the chance for Bumi to excel in the economy. So this is a very good policy. Come to the Sun, so Najib Tun Razak, he took 2.6 billion and 100% for me, 30% for Bumi, this 100% for me, for himself. So that's why I want to compare this to show that that's how you take for yourself this one he give it for everybody to share. Indeed the corruption scandal. This one I really like because it simplifies what can often be really complex if you read some of the media reports, The Wall Street Journal or The Edge. This one really simplifies and many Australians will understand the boomerang, the people's money going into the middle man's jolo. They come back to him. That's actually what he does, what he did, you know. Normally you technically put this money to another company and go far away and come back. I want to tell the people, you know he always said this is a donation. It's got nothing to do with YMDB scandal. He said that this 2.6 billion is a donation. It's not come from people's money. That's what he tried to tell. But through my cartoon I want to tell that this is our money. So that's why I make this picture for people to really understand. This is actually he put a comeback to him. So this is the purpose of this cartoon. In this one you've got Malaysia's strong man, I guess. This is Najib the strong man. Above the Lao Chin Chin Salatan, above the South China Sea. But underneath you've got here the international organisations. How would you say the international response has been around this corruption scandal? Because of the previous pictures show that YMDB money is located in an international bank all over the world. So now they all started, the foreign countries started to investigate money laundering. How come this money, the people can get so much money including step son of Najib in the United States. Which is they get the finance, the movie. So that's why the United States is investigating that issue. It's all about money laundering. He's already hitting Najib now. He is not strong. He looks strong from the surface. This is what this cartoon is all about. People in Australia may look, this is very strong. But in reality he's eaten up by this now. And do you think, I guess, is Najib the strong man going to sink? Oh yeah, it's a metal tank. I mean he's got two choices now. Whether he's going to become a dictator or he will definitely, you know, metal time he has to go down. So there's two choices now. You haven't just drawn Prime Minister Najib. In fact you've often drawn cartoons of the First Lady, Rosmar. Why is the First Lady fair game for a cartoonist like yourself? First of all it is an open secret in Malaysia. People know that she is the most powerful figure in Malaysia, not the Prime Minister. That's an open secret. People know that. So every decision by the government is actually she's her decision. It's not the husband's decision. So that is why I focus more on her. So she's the most powerful. So I make sure that even if she is not there, the ring will be there. The ring represents her will be there. So this is the thing. And she loves to shopping, of course. You don't have to shop. You have no problem to shop. People don't complain about it. Described as the First Lady of shopping in some reports. But you use people's money, that's what we are complaining. You can shop your own money, no problem. People money to shop. So this cartoon shows that previously they go to Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris, London, New York to shop. But now Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris, New York is about investigation. Right. When we talk about that they are very scared. And you've even got Sydney, I believe, here with the First Lady compared to the Opera House. And when people see the diamond, that's the First Lady. And when people see this little policeman with the twits and the handcuffs, what's that? This is actually the character of I.G.P. I mean Chief Police. When he appeared since March last year. When the day I was arrested, he used a Twitter posting to instruct these men to arrest me. So since then I make sure that in every cartoon I will put him with a Twitter. Which brings us to the last one and this incredible cartoon you've got. I guess this is yourself. Yes, this is a self-portrait. In jail. In jail with the Sedition Act, the Penal Code. And you're still drawing, I believe, until my last drop of ink. Is that what you're planning to do? Yes, that's right. This is the three laws used against me. Penal Code, Sedition Act and Printing and Princess Act. And I've got a philosophy here. How can I be a neutral? Even my pen has a stand. And also my philosophy of cartoning. And why pinch when you can punch? That is my way of doing cartoon. I make sure that, you know, I won't punch. I don't want to pinch. And finally, in one of the investigations, I told the police that you can bend my cartoon. You can bend my books, but you cannot bend my mind. I will keep drawing until the last drop of my ink. It's very inspiring, but you must worry. I mean, if you look at the case of Anwar, you know, the political sentence that was handed down to him, you must have times where you think, have I crossed the line? Should I pull back? We need to cross the line. This is a line of fear, we call it. It's not a normal line. It's a line of fear. If you don't cross it, you'll be trapped in there forever. So the system is very happy. The government is very happy if people don't want to cross the line. But if more, I know I'm crossing it. I hope more and more people will cross it. We have to break the system. If not, if not, they will be very happy. You can, now, you know, Malaysia has been governed by this party for more than 60 years. If you don't cross the line, we will give mandate for another 60 years for them. So, change will never happen. Zuna, thanks for coming in. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.