 OK, so welcome to this SOE Centre of Taiwan Studies film spring. So we're part of our understanding Taiwan through documentary and film series. I'm really delighted to welcome Professor Mark Moskowitz from University of South Carolina and who's the film's director and also Ray Tull who's the film's technical director. They're going to say a little bit about the film before we do the screening and then we'll have a kind of longer Q&A. This is the second session that Mark's done with us last night. He talked about the new paperback book, Popular Culture, in Taiwan. In that book Mark looks at Harry Potter, reading Harry Potter in Taiwan. I think it reflects the kind of very diverse kind of research that Mark's been doing, looking at things such as popular culture, pop music in Taiwan. In many ways the kind of stuff he does is one of the reasons why I think it's so wonderful to be in this field of Taiwan studies. I'm a political scientist, but by being involved in this field, I get exposed to subjects such as what we're going to look at in the film today, funeral stripping. As I was kind of walking over to my last class, maybe thinking about the talking that we were looking at in some of my classes today and yesterday. It was a little bit of overlap, but we were looking at political corruption. It seems to me that there's some nice parallel between corruption and funeral stripping. One of the problems we have when we look at the Taiwanese politics is we tend to look at it from a Taipei perspective. We can forget that there's so much diversity in Taiwan and urban rule diversity. Little corruption is one such example where we have values and norms on what is acceptable in terms of popular culture, little corruption. We have huge differences. I think there's a nice kind of way of linking our mornings with the topic of this film. Now I'm going to hand over to Mark just to talk a little bit about the film. He'll be able to go in a lot more detail in the Q&A session. Let's give Mark a B because so has to go. Thank you all for coming. Can you hear me without the microphone? Thank you all for coming. I'm really delighted you're here. I think it's so us. It's a particularly challenging thing to decide where to go because you have so many choices. We're both very flattered you came tonight. I want to thank Dapod. This has been a wonderful experience for us. Not just the talks but just experiencing London again. It's been a long time and it's such a wonderful city. Basically the film came because I had studied Taiwan for a number of years. I lived in Taiwan for ten years and yet it all out. It was kind of home and I wanted to try to do something with film. I had always written before and I had heard about funeral stripper or electric flower cars. They're also known for years and years and years. I thought this would be a good film topic. The bad side I should warn you is I knew nothing about making films. I had never used a camcorder, even a $5 camcorder. I had never used editing software. My school basically as part of the condition of my going there was a new job. I said, hey, can you buy me this equipment? They said, yeah, sure. Here's your equipment. Go ahead, Fong. That was the extent of training. One of the reasons why my wife is so pivotal in this film is I couldn't do the editing software. It conflicted with the PC I had at Abbot. She was able to go online and find the Chinese language instructions. Here's the glitch and here's how we fixed the glitch. Also, although I speak Mandarin fairly well, I don't speak Taiwanese. She was very pivotal to helping me understand what we had filmed if it was in Hokie. These kind of dynamics. With that, I apologize to begin with and hope you enjoy the film in spite of my weaknesses. Thank you. You enjoyed making that film. Actually, at the time it was so hot and I was running down the streets with 60 pounds of equipment. It was completely not the same experience as it was. I mean, one, as a political scientist, I've got to ask the question. Occasionally, we hear talk about strip shows in election campaign rallies. It was kind of, it did get one mention. I have seen one or two pictures from the early to the mid-1990s, but I've never been 40 enough to actually find these kind of performances. I wonder, did this actually come up in your kind of discussion? It was pretty rare that they brought it up. I didn't actually witness a political rally with this. The three shining girls, I think, just before I interviewed Sean Butler, father-manager, they'd just done a performance in Taipei, actually. But it was, I think, a more restrained show in some sense. And so, regionally, where you are in Taiwan, if you're near the city or the countryside, this changes things a lot. Before we continue, I should talk about what we saw technically, because we just showed the same film in Manchester, and I was horrified because Manchester, the screen, was bright yellow throughout the entire film. That's something about their equipment, transformed the film into this almost cartoonish vision. Here, the color was quite beautiful, but it was much darker than usual, and it had narrowed the image. So everyone looks much smaller, thinner than in real life. And the skipping, that sound burst at the end, that's never happened before. So, you know, just so you're aware of where the film begins and ends technically. One other thing I was wondering about was where these scenes were fulfilled. I presume we're talking about places like New Delhi in the countryside, and do you see a real big difference in terms of the views of this kind of performance between someone like Taipei and the countryside? Good question, Dan. Basically, in the mid-80s, when it really started to hit the popular press, it was just everywhere, just everywhere. City centres up and down Taiwan, the only place that was not taking place was downtown Taipei, which was the capital of the country. By the time we filmed, it was more or less restricted in Iter City, so it moved to the periphery, including Taipei, interestingly enough. And so the government was really much more strictly monitoring, monitoring what was going on with this. And so we had the privilege to interview a couple of government officials, which is very nice, and that was because of Al Ray. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, sure. It's this song? Yes, it is. Did you hear it? Okay, yeah. First thing, I want to back him out. Yes, he did enjoy it, because that was the first time I saw him. He really carried 100 pounds. I think he carried another me. He put a me, so two me together, filmed that film. And these two government officials, because back then I was working for a legislator, so I had some relationship with these government officials and happened to know one of them actually drafted the restricted regulation about electric, I'm sorry, I'm a little bit nervous. I'm not a scholar, and I'm not normally under the spotlight. So very fortunately we'll be able to interview these government officers. If under the normal channel, I'm not sure if we will have a chance because it's kind of forbidden topics in the political field. People, obviously they don't support it, but they don't want to talk about it on the view either. So very fortunately, and thanks to my boss, although he won't hear that. In Taiwan, I think very much, as with many countries, is very focused on connections, who you know. And so I was so lucky because I already graduated from Taidah in the law department, which is where most of the big officials, government officials, graduate. And I was also lucky because this practice had taken a real beating in the popular press, it had been really very criticized. Usually by educated men living in the capital, women outside of Taipei didn't care, in general women didn't care one way or another. Men outside of Taipei either didn't care or loved it. And so one of the issues when we did this film was the fear of us. The fear, are they going to be like the Taiwan press and really persecute us to store things. And I was so lucky to have Airee introduce us because she's from the south of Taiwan and is aborigining from Taiwan. And so I think people felt much more trustful of her because of that position in society than had it just been me or had it just been a Han Chinese from Taipei. So really this film would have been impossible without Airee's assistance. I think my second question would be about their safe warning because this is linked to anything that prostitution and against that or gang crime violence against them. So how safe are they and how old are they? How old are they? I think the age range probably maybe from what I heard from these performers when they started probably from 15 to 20s. You might think it's under age but if it's 15 they probably don't dress like that. So they probably dress more, cover more. But they start training from 15 because a lot of them, because the family also the community, one of the interviewees say they grow up in this environment and their parents are managers. So it's more like a family business to them. And for them it's an honorable job. So they won't feel like they're being looked down on to you because friends are around and they work very hard for this profession. And I'm not sure maybe it's funny here or why we didn't show. She told me that they're performing in all kinds of situations. Even if it's raining, it's storming, if they are higher they have to stand on that stage and perform. So unlike pop star in the screen they are under the roof at least to keep them safe. And they have to climb to that pole and if it's raining a lot of times the pole is very slippery. So they get hurt. So it's not the job you think is, you might, a lot of people might think it's so easy. You're just singing and then kind of just shaking on the stage but it's not like that. So I think that's why a lot of people keep them criticized without understanding what the job is. About the second question. You have a question or are they used by can I answer it? Yes please. Actually, one of the things I was struck by that I didn't expect is it reminded me very much of a circus community or a gypsy community in that they were very stigmatized outside of their community but they really watched out for each other. So to my knowledge, I just never heard of any sexual abuse, no pimps, nobody even accosted because often their managers were their relatives and they were watching out for each other very carefully and it's already pointed out because of that very close dynamic if anything I think they were far safer than say a waste waitress perhaps at a more risque kind of venue but it's an excellent question. Okay, we've got a couple of questions. We've got BU and then Ben in the back so we're building up a few questions. BU, I forgot to thank you. Thank you as well for having us. This is wonderful. I have two questions about me. The first one because in the film all sorts of occasions were sort of mixed together for example performing for weddings to funerals to babies' birthdays or whatever but can you let us know just elaborate a little bit. What's the difference between the entertainment for different occasions was there for example especially pole dancing for example is it especially popular among funerals or for little campaigns I don't know. Can you just elaborate on that? The second question is I notice they're mostly for men so is a man's entertainment is it the case or maybe I just got it wrong can you... I mean particularly thinking about the audience because that was one of the things I was going to ask as well about what is the gender breakdown in the audience because at least from the clips we saw it looked quite a family base actually it was quite me as actually I think the only difference with the performance might be in location rather than the kind of event they were celebrating so rather than divided from birthday to funeral well I think they did change the closer you got to the city the less likely you were to see full nudity and so for example I actually witnessed full nudity in part I think because I was filming but I hear it's very very prevalent in the countryside that seems to be the main division that it's a funeral or a wedding or perhaps a political event is more of a strain I'm not sure about that one assumes I did when I first started that it's for a male audience I think to some degree this is true it's primarily with the desirous aids in mind and given Taiwan's homophobia I don't think people are thinking this is also for women's pleasure which I think it is in some instances but I think one difference that does occur is the educational level of the children of the deceased sometimes comes into play in really interesting ways and so sometimes women less often but sometimes women have these funeral strippers hired for their funerals maybe a fourth of the time sometimes they do it because it's a temple celebration for the gods sometimes they do it because they loved it you saw that the only complaints I've seen communities again not from Taipei government officials is perhaps a usually son is now living in Taipei has now graduated from university and now has become a bit worried about this what does the world see this phenomenon and I think even the government officials are less concerned with the sexuality of it than the fact that they're aware that the West finds it amusing or troubling and this becomes an interesting dynamic as well the stigma is partially the gender issues we might predict for this what kind of role model is this etc but I think by and large it's really much more about oh no we don't want the outside world to look down on this and now becomes an interesting dynamic as well great questions I have pretty much free data after someone's died with history so a little like those funerals took about a month to prepare and get everything ready my question is because it seems like an area or a venue or a place where you can go against the conservative norms of a society how do you compare that with it has an element of significance of grandeur as well which usually in major major events there's a conservative element in other cultures the widest how I'm going to break the mould in that way and is there a male or transgender you touch on the sort of homophobia of it other say a growing market I guess for a male and other roles do you want to unfortunately I'm getting to the age where I forget so it may be to remind me of some parts of the three part question but let me start from the back and work our way forward occasionally there are men performing even to the point of men and women patronizing sex acts on the stage transgender I've heard of one case of it I didn't witness it particularly I didn't see it first hand and I think you're actually right that this becomes a time to trans normalize views of sexuality and I don't want to think people perceive of themselves as being quite conservative I'm not sure I agree I think in fact the number one reaction my Taiwanese friends have when they go to the US is how warring the US is how conservative Americans are they go there expecting to have a lot of fun because they think Americans is a bit morally decreed and are so disappointed by the religious element and such but one thing I think we all have to do in doing this film I learned a lot as well and then this question are assumptions about how one marks what we would call a solemn occasion very recently we've been hitting the museums because one has such wonderful museums and I was singing about this issue because we have such a culture of solemnity in museums as well you have to be quiet we have solemn no food why not go in there and get drunk and have fun certainly the paintings were hanging on walls where people were getting drunk and having sex and doing all these kinds of things and I think it's our puritanical background that has shaped our view of what you do as a marker of respect my father passed away about 10 years ago my mother passed away a couple of years ago and I'm not a good emotion guy I cry about once every 10 years I don't deal with emotions very well so for me it was very hard to process this and I was thinking how wonderful it would be to go somewhere with just this enormous range of distractions music and sights and sounds and like the Irish Wake maybe make it a celebration of a person's life rather than a sad marker of their passing did I leave I feel like I left one point out did I take that kind of cover a couple of times well good my brain is working better great questions lady at the ok then the one at the side and then we've got the one right behind you so we're getting quite a lot of questions and Dean as well thank you for the book I have one question and one for you the question is for you for director as well as for the audience from Taiwan can you assume that these kind of street dance during the funeral is mostly for the male disease but not for the female disease have you ever encountered in the street dance doing all that is for one of the students this is a question and then I do some research on this things much so it happens to me that one of the researchers that took me to the first person who transformed the car into a real electronic car and they this person is on Taizhou County Taizhou province and he was saying actually before these entertainers worked on electronic car it's kind of a question is part of the generalization process in Taiwan well that's an interesting issue I think this is thought of as being a very very traditional activity to some degree it is we had a farm team talking about ox carts before but it didn't really hit the public until the mid 80s that's when I hit the press so historically that's a pretty modern phenomenon and all the lights and the diesel trucks with the electric thing machinery in that sense it's also very modern so to me as an anthropologist the ways it represents tradition at the same moment that for those engaged in it it doesn't represent tradition at all it represents something very modern and exciting and perhaps tradition only at the point that well this is what we should do to show our respect from the interviews people told me that approximately one fourth of dinswacha were for female disease so it's not just for men but I did not hear of a woman requesting this for example when I die I really want those female students whereas I did hear many stories of men requesting it so there is clearly a gender bias but not to the extent that I would have thought I was actually if anything I was surprised at how ubiquitous it was among poor communities regardless of gender or religion you kind of already asked my question a little bit but I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about what the press in the States grounding for their criticism it seems to be about tradition how this is going against tradition but it never really seemed like the idea that they are being objectified never really seemed to come into this in fact most of the criticism I have seen has been Chinese language press which has just been very vicious towards it and I think there has been some discussion about the gender issues but you're right for the most part it's more about you know this is backwards why are we not modern and these kinds of things so again I think to some degree this is with an eye to the West and in Taiwan it's funny about this that to me the best parts most of the Taiwan society things that they are trying to control 9 markets for example used to be these wild crazy wild zones where anything went on and then they came in and put these restrictions and now you know there is a KFC McDonald's right in the 9 market there is a gap selling clothing and so part of the attempt to restrict Dien Zawatu is the gentrification of Taiwan to some degree and the acute desire to be global citizens and very profound ways does that answer to any question so I have two questions one is I'm quite curious that is this business quite competitive or is one of two family business the second question is what do the government really do to this situation for the phenomenon because I've seen that simply since there's police over there and some government say that we have to bring them the good direction and not the bad direction so what the government do actually do you want? I think I can answer a competitive question I think there's two level the performers they have agents so there's a performer industry and there's also Dien Zawatu manager they have the car, they have the stage so both of both of industries are very competitive in one county you may have I don't know the exact statistics but they always say that competition is so hard we can't survive and we are just small family run somebody may be richer somebody in a better location competition is very hard and for the performer industry as well because a lot of them and hire by different agents and the agents they were getting business Sule agents and so it is very competitive for Sule this industry and legally I think the laws were actually fairly restraint everything you saw was legal and we made a very conscious choice of that because we did see some things that were not legal and they have been so attacked and it's a very big division between anthropology and journalism all the stuff that cut out were the money shots but as an anthropologist I felt a certain responsibility the basic law is no full nudity and so when you saw those police and with the cameras it was essentially self monitoring at that point because the people performing saw them just as they saw me so they weren't about to do that in front of a camera and so that becomes an interesting dynamic and to some degree in the US they do this with traffic they'll just put a police car there nobody in it and people slow down because it's an empty police car and by sending those two policemen there with a camera it stopped the problem and they could have taken a very different approach like they have a mainland where they go undercover and then arrest people and it becomes a very serious thing so when I was interviewed the reporter felt that I had made the government officials look a little silly and now that I watch it again there's an element of that and I didn't mean to do it at the time I meant to create something that was very well balanced but my own bias is kind of sank in and it wasn't until I showed I was teaching a class at Peking University for one semester it wasn't until I showed it there that it struck me how incredibly and wonderfully restrained the government officials were that had it been at Peking at Beijing a government official there would have been none of that hesitation in the speech it would have been they need to stop this is immoral my only true regret about the film is unintentionally I was a little bit unfair about that because in fact what they were stopping were things like very Thailand-esque performances that had taken place before that I spoke with one anthropologist who was in Taiwan in around 85 and saw a woman squirting water out of her private parts and so respect I think I have a little bit more sympathy to the idea of where do we draw lines at the time I was just so obsessed with protecting the women who didn't attend I mean one thing that your question may be thinking about was the cross-strait service agreement and a whole new service could this be open up to mainland Chinese events ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?