 Welcome to the Packaging and Processing Women's Leadership Network Learning Circle. This is the second webinar in our educational series that covers some of the skill sets that can really catapult your career. And today we're talking about networking. And it seems straightforward enough, but understanding the nuances of networking can advance your career in your current organization. However, you have to have a strategic game plan to make it work to your advantage. So my name is Stephanie Neal. I am an editor at PMMI Media Group, and I'll be your moderator today. Joining me are two women who were featured in the recent published Voices of Women in Packaging and Processing Report. That was produced in collaboration with the OPEX Leadership Network and the Packaging and Processing Women's Leadership Network. And I'm going to just briefly introduce Nancy and Melanie before we get started. I'm going to read their bios so I don't mess this up because they've got a lot of good stuff here. Nancy Wilson is the CEO of Morrison Container Handling Solutions. Prior to joining Morrison in 2011, Nancy had a 25-year career in leadership positions at Ford Motor Company. Here she was a member of the Diversity Council and established herself as a mentor to foster the development and advancement of women at Ford. She now does the same in the packaging industry as an executive council member of PMMI's Packaging and Processing Women's Leadership Network. She's also a recipient of many awards, including Crane's Notable Women in Manufacturing, as well as a winner of the 2020 Step Ahead Award from the Manufacturing Institute, which honors the best female leaders in manufacturing. So thanks for joining us, Nancy. And then also here is Melanie Denney. She is a personal branding consultant, self-marketing expert, certified LinkedIn strategist and founder of the Empowered Presence Framework designed to help women of color gain visibility and capitalize on new opportunities to the power of personal branding. As an international career speaker who partners with associations for women around the world, Melanie has been featured in Forbes, HuffPost, Yahoo News, Fast Company, NBC News, OEM Magazine, and Countless Podcast. So welcome, Melanie. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Absolutely. I'm very excited for this today. Me too. It's going to be a good conversation. Before we start, I want to let everybody know in the audience that we want you to be part of this discussion. So please feel free to ask questions. There's a Q&A tab at the bottom of your screen. And if you click on that, you can put your question right in there. We're going to get it on the back end. After we have our conversation, we're going to answer some of your questions. But again, feel free to put them into the Q&A at any time that you want, and we will get them. So let's get started. Networking. Again, like I said, it seems so simple, right? Not so much. I do want to start with you, Nancy, because you have referred to networking as building a community. And I like that. I feel like it gives it a little bit more of a personalized touch. But can you explain what you mean by that, especially when you're talking about your own organization? Absolutely. Thanks, Stephanie. And to all of you, I'm really, really happy to be here. And I think it's just a great experience for us all to reach out and try to help other women, especially but all others, I would say, in the packaging world, where we live in a dynamic, fun world in the world of packaging. So it's just an opportunity for us all to help each other. So I guess I talk about networking as a community because really it's what you do and it's who you are and the people that you have. And I have many communities that I work in and live in here at Morrison, as well as through PMMI, where I work with the Future Workforce Committee and I work on and on the board, but also in my local communities here with the like Southland Development Authority and other manufacturing associations. So with those communities, you have a lot of opportunity not just to connect yourself, but to connect with others and connect other people to other people to help everyone stop and get ahead. And that's what I really like about this is a opportunity to help other people reach out and grow and ask a lot of questions and be curious. And what I would say about networking just a little bit more on that is networking is work. It's not just, you know, getting together and although you can have enjoyable things like a glass of wine when you're networking, it is work, but it doesn't have to be hard work and it doesn't have to be not fun. Network can be very fun. It's how you choose to represent it and how you choose to go about figuring out what's right for you. Well, I like that you said that it is work, but it can be fun and it should be fun. But what do you mean by it's work? Like do you have to have some sort of strategic plan in place? You do. You really have to decide what's important to you. You have to kind of do your own assessment of what do I need? Where am I going? What are my goals? And once you have your goals, then it's to figure out what do I need to get there and who can help me? And it's not just about me. Who can I help along the way as well? One of the most important things I learned in my years at Ford, I've been around this for a long time. So figuring out within an organization, especially a large organization, where's the power? Where does that lie? Who's making the decisions? Who has the ability to give knowledge to you? I mean, who can you go learn from? And so it's about learning. It's about being open, but it's about also positioning yourself to be with the people so that they can help bring you along, but you can also learn from them and they know who you are. In some big organizations, just being known who you are kind of is important. So it's about being thoughtful in this process of figuring out, you can't just sit at a desk and wait for somebody to tap you on your shoulder and say, here I have this big opportunity for you. You have to go make those opportunities. And I'm going to circle back with you on that because it's a really important point in how you do that. I want to explore a little bit more, but I want to turn the conversation over to Melanie because you've built a business on helping people with their personal brand. And Nancy just said you can't just sit at a desk and wait for people to come to you. So how do you build your personal brand and how do you create that presence within your organization? Yeah, I think it boils down to visibility. Like Nancy said, who knows you? It's not enough for how they always used to say it's about it's really about who knows you. Because there may be people backing for you because they've heard of some things you've done or someone else brought you to their attention. And you may not know them, but if they know you and they're in a good position of decision, they could potentially tap you on the shoulder. So it boils back down to how visible are you in the workplace. It's not about sitting at the desk getting your work done. That's wonderful, but it's not enough when it comes to your taking control of your career. You really have to like, we keep saying be strategic, intentional, really pinpoint, okay, who do I want to align myself with and going both ways, right up, down and across. So your colleagues as well, because you guys can learn from each other's experiences as well. And so it's about, you know, going to lunch with your colleagues going across departments and seeing how you can add value or help out, right? Asking people straight out, hey, will you be my mentor? Hey, will you be my sponsor? And being proactive about, you know, talking to people, not just about work, but just getting to know folks, getting to like them and them getting to like you because at the end of the day, we're all just people, right? You always say, I always used to say, find people, not jobs. Right. So if you want to rise up in the organization, again, who are the people that you really want to connect with. So you talk a lot about being your authentic self, Melanie. And so is that what you're trying to say here when you're like, be yourself, I mean, when you talk about it being visible at work, I mean, sometimes we get into little clicks. Sometimes we're in our own little group. How do you break out of that? And I mean, sometimes it's just, you know, an internal dialogue that you're having with yourself, right? That you feel comfortable in this group, but you need in order to expand your presence at work, you need to expand your group, right? Or who you're interacting with. But that can be difficult to do. Sometimes I would suspect. Yeah, I think it boils back down to, you know, thinking about this as I always used to like, I like to use the comparison between when you're a kid at the lunch table at school, right? Do you always sit with the same people? That's okay. But you want to try to see who else you can sit with today, right? Who else can I sit with? And sometimes it's literally, you know, the lunch at work, the lunch table, the cafeteria, whatnot, and you find someone to say, Hey, can we sit with you today? Sure. They may not say yes. But hopefully they say yes, and you just spark up a conversation, you know, how do you like your meals? Simple things, doesn't have to be earth shattering questions. Well, so that's a good segue back to Nancy, because Nancy talked about thinking about who can you learn from? Or, you know, is there a manager that you feel like you should get to know more? But I mean, is it okay for somebody who's maybe at an assistant level to sit at the lunch table with a manager that they don't know? I mean, how do you approach people that have a more of a leadership role that you think could help you and you want to get to know? I would love to talk about that. I think you all have a responsibility. When we talked about sitting at your desk, it's not just about networking as well. Doing your job and doing your job well is the price of entry. And so once you do that, then I think the networking has to happen above and beyond that. And when you're trying to sit at the lunch table with the higher ranking person, most people are more than willing to share and to talk about their life experiences. Be curious and then listen to what they have to say. Talk to them about if you were, you know, if you had this situation, what were you, what were you do? Or can you tell me about how you got in this business? Or you can talk to me about the product. You need to understand your products and the business that you're in and be an expert on that. And I often have advised people to figure out how to go to lunch with the lunch bunch. There's always a power lunch bunch. Figure out how to be invited, figure out how to go. And sometimes you might even be as bold as ask if you can go along. And it isn't comfortable necessarily at first. It really isn't. And one of the mantras that I've said for many years and I had to learn it over time is feel your fear, but do it anyway. Just feel, acknowledge it's there. Yep. This is going to, this is really uncomfortable, but this is what I'm going to do. And you'll be surprised if you, if you're curious, if you ask questions and you figure out who to be with and tag along and then be grateful for the information. But if most people, if you get them talking about themselves or what they've done and you're really listened and you're not thinking about what you're going to say next, but you really listen, they pick up on that and it's, and it becomes very genuine. The other thing I would say, as far as asking for mentors, that really works when you've built a relationship with someone. I actually believe that a strategy might be to have more than one go to person. And this is one of the things I did many, many years ago at Ford. I didn't ask them to be my mentor. I just said, what do you do? How does it work? And really understand, if you were me, how would it happen? And there's always a bunch of, for me at that time, they're all guys, bunch of old guys that were willing to say, this is how it really works. This is what happens. This is what you need to know. And so it's not any one formal mentor, because if I would have gone to them and said, would you be my mentor, I think they would have jumped back and said, I don't know how to do that. Right. But would you just give me some advice on this, or how would you handle this, or how would you do that? I think people are very receptive to helping that. And you can learn a lot from people. There's a lot of experience around all of us in our organizations, the people that have been around that are more than willing to share that because they want to be heard as well. Yeah. I do want to like explore more that feeling of being uncomfortable and feel your fear, somebody in the audience just said that they love that. And I do too, because you have to recognize that, all right, this is going on emotionally. I am nervous about this, but it has to happen. And Nancy, you've been in two male dominated industries, the automotive and the packaging industry. And I mean, how did you navigate that to move into a leadership role? You know, I have had a lot of good advice, a lot of mentors. I just have learned over time to speak up. Many women know that when you're in meetings, for example, you'll say something, and then nobody pays attention. And then the guy says it, and then it's a great idea. Then you have to actually speak up and say, that's what I just said. Or how is that different? And one of the other tips I would say is when you walk into a room, one, again, you have to know your product. You have to not speak for the sake of speaking. But in a meeting, try to be one of the first people that speaks if you can. If you can speak knowledgeable about that subject, speak up, be heard. You want to be memorable. And I've often said, you know, I obviously, I've grown up in a male dominated world, and especially my years at Ford. There was good and bad about that. And one of the very good things was I did stick out. I was memorable. My class of other Ford FCGPs, Ford graduate program that I came in with, there were only maybe one or two other women in it. So I was memorable. And I could use that to my advantage. And I think women can still do that. But I also think the world is a little safer now, and there's more opportunity. So I think we've done, we've made a lot of advancements, which I'm quite happy about. But I think there's, you can make yourself stick out, and you can make yourself be remembered, as long as you actively participate. And it's, you're not making it all about you, but you're making about the goal or the company or what you're trying to achieve in whatever session you're in. Yeah. And Melanie, do you agree? I mean, how do you find your voice and how do you make yourself stick out and be memorable within an organization or within an industry? And I mean, I'll let you answer that. And I want to talk a little bit more about, you know, some of your expertise online, like using LinkedIn as well. Yeah, I think there's a bit of self-reflection that needs to happen when you're, you know, your internal thoughts are telling you, oh, they're never going to respond. They're never going to accept me or all these negative things that we are allowing to dictate our actions. We've got to really sit with some of those. So I'm trying to really, you know, get to the root of it and determine, is this what I'm prioritizing over my career goals? Yeah. Right. And then really, like Nancy said, I say the same, I have the same mantra. Feel the fear and do it anyway, because it's bigger than your fear. Right. This is about you progressing, you adding value to the organization and allowing yourself to shrink because you're shy or you're the only woman. It's tough, but it can be done as we see from Nancy here. It can be done. So you, but the person, I think the individual has to recognize some of the shortcomings or some of the things that's holding them back, address those internally and put forth that confidence. Yeah. That's really what's going to drive you is yourself confident. So two questions just came in there, they're kind of similar. So I want to address them now. And it has to do with maybe working in a very individual based job, maybe you don't have a lot of colleagues, a small group or small team, maybe they travel a lot, or we're all working remotely now. So how do you network when you're working remotely, you're not in the same office with your colleagues? I mean, I don't Nancy, do you want to try to tackle that first? I think, I do think remote work is brought in a new set of challenges. There's no doubt about that. But we also are all much more accustomed to having conversations like this over teams. And you can reach out and we can use those groups. You can choose to create, you know, after hours or a cocktail thing or whatever you want to, I said I have this drink thing going, a luncheon maybe is what I should say, with colleagues or with others. And also for the person that is talking about I went in a small office, you can feel free to reach out to other people in industry. It's one of the main reasons why we created this group. The, you know, I was one of the, truthfully, after one of the PMMI meetings, there were a handful of women there and we were all together after hours and we talked about what can we do to create a group for women and to, and that's how this whole organization was born as a way for us to create a networking organization within the industry and use groups like this. But I really, again, I would emphasize understand your product, know where it is and reach out to others that are there that can help you understand and can connect you with people that are also within that industry, especially if you have some goals of where you want to get to. I guess those are what I would say about it. It is definitely different now. It's harder to have those, you know, water fountain conversations when there's nobody in the office. So you have to be a little more creative and how you get about, but I think you can be done. And I also see that I know mentors and people giving advice, they can be at all levels. They do not have to be somebody that's a hire or can help you maybe pull you up, but they can give you information. And information is so important and they can, they can help lead you if you choose to take that information. But I always say, listen, don't, you know, listen, you get the two ears, listen, and to what they're really telling you and then do your own evaluations. Well, and you answered a question that came in, which was, would you recommend a mentor needs to be in a higher position than you or even at your same company? So you just basically answered that and the answer is, yeah, it could be anyone, right? And you can get information from anyone and you can understand how the organization works from the people that have been around a long time and what they've seen happen. I still will go back to the figure out where the power is in the organization and align yourself with that power. And Melanie, you know, thinking about the remote work, there's a lot of online tools that we're all using now to communicate and collaborate. I know you're an expert with LinkedIn. I mean, are there things that we can use to connect us to peers in our industry? Absolutely. Absolutely. LinkedIn for sure. Zoom, right? Zoom meetings. I know it probably zoomed out, but sometimes it's a very simple thing now. Everyone, that's the standard now, right? So, you know, if there's a virtual event or something like that work, you go to the event and you participate and you mingle and then afterwards you contact the people you kind of spoke with and say, hey, we had a great time at that event, love to chat with you more. Here's my link or here's some availability I'd love to do a virtual coffee chat or something like that. The sky is a limit really, like it's just a matter of being imaginative and being creative and just creating opportunities for yourself. LinkedIn is one of my favorite, favorite tools. And a lot of people are on LinkedIn. A lot of them are not as active though, so messaging folks on LinkedIn may not necessarily yield a lot of results, but it definitely is a point of contact that you can move some of these relationships from, you know, the Zoom to the LinkedIn and to connect them in that way. Yeah. Are there things you should never do when networking? Yes. Well, I asked this because when we were talking once, Melanie, you talked about the same thing that Nancy talked about, like try to figure out a way to get invited to that lunch, but don't cross boundaries. Like, so, I mean, you have to be able to take social cues, right? They don't want me here. Yeah, you have to be emotionally intelligent and read the room, definitely for sure, but I think that you can definitely still, you know, do it without being pushy or disrespectful or just annoying, right? You know, if someone, you know, blows you off three or four times, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree and now who else can I, you know, kind of connect with? So you definitely have to read the room. Yeah. Nancy, do you agree? I do. I never do. I guess what I would say is never, you always have to be genuine. You always have to be yourself and be true to who you are and what your beliefs are. And I would say never cross that line. If you can't, if it just feels yucky in your gut, don't do it. I mean, you gotta listen to what your values are and where you are and what you're doing. So other than that, I think, you know, Melanie's right, read the room, figure out how you can be there. You know, if the guys want to go out and go play golf, learn to play golf. I mean, you can do things like that. You can choose to do things like that. Go take golf lessons. Go, go learn how to be a part of that. But the single biggest thing before you do any of those other tricks is know your business, know your product, be a professional, understand, be valuable at your workplace, and they'll seek to have you be a part of it. And those, that's kind of the secret is, you know, always look to be helpful. I remember many, many years ago, I was, was at a meeting and they were having trouble getting, I don't know, seats or chair. I don't remember what it was, something like that. But what I do remember is somebody that was very high in the company came to me later and thanked me because they saw that I needed that I saw something needed to be done with how the room was set up in the chairs. And I didn't say anything. I just did it because you're, you're, you're observing what's happening around you. You see some something needs to be done and it needs to be just quietly go do it. And there are things like that that you can do that you'll be remembered for that. I was shocked. I don't remember the exact action. I still remember the Ron Light, who was really high at Ford at the time of well above my, my pay grade, who came to me and thanked me for doing whatever it was. It was just paying attention to what needed to be done, paying attention to the situation and taking action. Right. Yeah. I love that. It's really about adding value, right. And I would say something to never do is take, take, take, take, take and never get it. Correct. Yeah. I always want big ask, please, please, but you're never offering anything. Right. So a big question is how do we find the time to do all this? I know that there's a question that came in from the audience talking about, you know, Melanie mentioned virtual coffee date. Does that happen during work hours? Like, where do you find the time to do that? Nancy mentioned learn how to play golf. Like, well, if you've got a busy life with things happening on the weekend, like, where do we find time to do that? And I mean, maybe that's more of a personal type of question where you've got to carve out time for yourself. But I guess it's an important part of the equation. Yeah. I would say we prioritize whatever we want. If you look at where we spend our time, that's our priorities. So if we're not finding deliberate intentional networking, then clearly that's not our priority. Right. So it's a matter of okay, well, maybe I need to shuffle some things around to put this ahead of some other things for now, as I continue with this desire to grow in my field. So like you said, it's a personal thing, but there's always time for the things we want to make time for. Right. I think that also goes back to being what I was saying before being true to your values and what's important to you. And I mean, people on this webinar have all chosen to be in the packaging and processing field, which is a really fun and dynamic organization to be in and everyone can identify with it. You go through the grocery store, you see what we do through all the different industries. And so it can be really fun. I guess what I would say is I agree with Melanie, you prioritize what's important. And if golf doesn't fit in your schedule, then you figure out what does. And the other thing I would challenge everyone is when you're there, be present. Be in the meeting. Be in the room. Be there. Put the phones down. Put the phones away. I'm probably as guilty as everyone else in that I get distracted. But you need to be present and you need to be heard and be curious and ask questions. And you'll make a name for yourself and you'll end up being heard. But if you're sitting in a meeting and you're scrolling through your phone and you're not, you look disinterested, you're also creating that brand for yourself. Right. Right. One other thing I want to add very quickly is don't expect us to go to lunch tomorrow and then have a full blown promotion. It is a long game. This is a long game. This is about building a nurturing, genuine relationships over time. So, you know, when you think about networking, people are impatient, they're microwaved real quick, but it takes time to build those relationships for people to figure out, oh, you would fit great in this type of role or whatnot or advocate for you and trust you enough to recommend you and things like that. So don't be impatient, you know, think about it for six months, nine months, 12 months out, and how you can strategically move when you're trying to network. It's an investment, right? Right. And don't give up after one lunch. That didn't work. It's keep trying. And like when I went back before, it doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't, I mean, make it fun. Be with people you want to be with. And if you're surrounded with a whole lot of people that the thought of networking with them is nauseating, you're in the wrong group. Right. Figure out where you need to be. Right. And there's a comment that came in that said one tech, one technique I learned is that we could treat networking as part of our work, like 5% of your work time instead of, you know, adding on to outside of work. So that's a good mindset too. It's like it's part of your work environment to reach out and create a community of people. I want to switch gears really quickly because we don't have much more time left, but I want to talk about networking outside of the organization in the more traditional sense. We've got our big breakfast coming up at Pack Expo Las Vegas in September. And it can be intimidating to walk into a room of 900 people that you don't know. And sometimes people are there with their groups and sometimes they're by themselves. So is there, do you have any sort of practical advice for maybe somebody who's a little more introverted to walk into that room and break the ice for themselves and figure out how to mingle and network with people at their table or in the room? I see you nodding your head, Melanie. So I think you've got an answer. So there's a trick I heard about years ago for mostly for introverts who don't want to be the first to, right, is where's something unique that, you know, and this may be, you know, not comfortable either because now you're drawing attention to yourself, right? But what I found is some of my, it works for some of my clients because someone approaches them and say, oh my goodness, look at your dress, look at your earrings, I love your whatever, your fringe, your glasses, whatever, shoot. And then you could say, oh, thank you, I got it from blah, blah, blah. And then now all of a sudden in a conversation, you didn't have to be the first. So I thought it was a nice strategy that people aren't really thinking about. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, and also I think, you know, you both have talked about like having the conversation and being knowledgeable, but I think too, you know, we walk in and a room of strangers in the first thing you say is, the weather's great, isn't it? I mean, it's a good one, but we've got to kind of come in there armed with information or knowing something about the speaker or whatever it might be. Do you, I mean, do you agree, Nancy, or do you have other tactics? I think, well, first of all, probably the single biggest thing that you can do is smile. Force yourself to smile because you'll look like you'll look more fun to talk to, like more comfortable. It'll help you exude confidence and it'll raise your mood. So smile when you walk into the room. And the other thing that I find the easiest thing to do is, so what brings you here? What intrigued you about being here? Again, get people to talk about themselves or why they're here or what they're here or what they're expecting to learn. And then just let the conversation roll from there. I try not to talk about the weather, but sometimes I do. You know, if you just need to, that helps and you can move on or you can go around the table and how are you all here together and did you know each other and try to make, again, the community, try to make the connections. Oh, you're from there. Oh, I used to work with somebody who was at that company. Do you know? And again, just trying to get people to talk about themselves, what they do and their role. And the other thing you got to put in the back of your mind is they're the same people that walked into the room with 900 people and they're probably looking for somebody to talk to. So they're there because it's a networking event. And so it makes it a little bit easier, I think, for to start some of those conversations. And you'll also, you know, again, observe, be aware of what's going on. If it's a table of everybody dressed alike and they're sitting down and they're by themselves and they're all from a company, probably not the best table to sit down with and try to mingle in with. You want to look for the people that are either by themselves or standing or so that you can kind of read the room and feel who looks like they want to share something. Right. So I don't see any more questions coming in. So I wanted to switch to, we've got a slide that has a list of networking tips that we can share with everybody. And maybe we can go through some of them that are, you know, that maybe jump out. You know, I know Nancy and Melanie both put this list together. I mean, is there anything, any big takeaways from this list? And again, I know it's a lot. So if everybody in the audience wants to maybe take a picture or screenshot this so that you've got that, please do so. But I mean, I think, you know, finding a mentor is a big thing. And, you know, you talked about finding a mentor everywhere and learning from all levels of people in the organization. I mean, are there any of these that you want to expand upon? I would just go back to the mentor. The word mentor can be intimidating to some people. But if you just talk to people and talk to them and you're using them as a mentor, but you're getting information and asking people for their opinion, after you've built a relationship for a long time, then you could maybe say the, you know, something, I don't know how to decline that call. Here I go. Sorry about that. No problem. But you can, you just don't let the word mentors be intimidating, I guess, to people. And after you build a relationship, then you can pick and choose and you can ask people and you can create mentors in your organization or outside of your organization. But that's why when I did that, I put mentors in prints because, or in quotes, because they really can be many sources of where you're getting information from. Yeah. And then I think along with in the vein of personal branding, I think it's important to know and understand the value that you're bringing, right? Because a lot of us go to work, do our job, we go home. We don't think about the impact that that project made on the company. We don't own that, right? So I would really encourage anyone listening to really go back and take inventory of your accomplishments and don't be afraid to talk about your accomplishments and to add value and to show the value that you bring because people won't really know or pay attention. They just know, oh, this was done great. Looks great. But when it's time to advocate for yourself in terms of looking at a promotion, moving up, you're going to have to sell yourself and you're going to have to show them what you have done to add value to the company and the organization. So as network and all those things, keep in mind that you want to also make sure that your value is being articulated along the way. I agree with that. I think many times women undersell themselves. And there's a big advantage to not just being very factual in terms of what you've been able to achieve in your accomplishments or putting them down on paper so that you're tracking them and sharing them with your supervisor and saying, is there anything else that you would like me to see or would you have liked to have seen here and how we did it? And I think that's a good exercise that everyone can do. Yeah, and I think once you nail that down, your networking will become easier because you're more confident about yourself. You're not shy and reserved because you don't feel like you're adding much. You know exactly what you're adding. You're going to bring that to the conference. It's a great point. I'm going to address one last question. We actually have questions coming in, but I know we're running a little bit short on time, but I like this question. What is the best piece of advice you've each been given and felt has helped you as a woman in industry? And this is from somebody who just entered the packaging industry just over a year ago. So any, I mean, I know this might give you pause and make you think a little bit, but any advice that you've been given or that you can give? I think for me personally, one big piece of advice that really helped shift my perspective and has ranked true as I went through life was trust the process, trust the journey, right? So we may beat ourselves up because, oh, we should be here or I suck at networking all these things, but if you're putting forth the effort and it's not working, that is a part of your journey and your story and you're going to learn from it and you're going to grow from it and it's okay if you feel like you failed and it's okay if it didn't happen the way in which you wanted it to happen, but if you keep going and you just consistently work towards whatever your goal is, you'll look back at the journey and you'll say, that's why I had to go through that. Wow. That taught me this. Wow. That really helped me through this next level. So that's my number one piece of advice that really helped me. Yeah, that's great. Love it. Yeah, I guess I would, I've probably talked about a lot of mine already. The one about being true to yourself and true to your values is probably the biggest single piece of advice I would give everyone is understand who you are and how it feels and make sure that what you're doing fits within your values and that's probably the single biggest thing and then my mantra of feel your fear and do it anyway. Those are the two that I would put into that for a piece of advice and the other things we've just talked about are more tactical, what to do, but it's really about your own feelings inside and how your gut feels. The gut check is really a genuine tool to use if you take advantage of it. Love it. Well, I want to thank both of you so much. We're going to have to conclude this discussion. I know we could do this for hours and hours, but people have work to do, but things that are really valuable discussion. We do have a couple of questions we didn't get to, so we will do our best to answer you if we do not address them be another way. Also, you'll notice there's a QR code that you could download the digital resource for the voices of packaging, voices of women in packaging and processing report that both Nancy and Melanie contributed to. Also be on the lookout for a follow-up survey to capture your thoughts on how we can continue to improve these learning circles in the future. So thank you so much for joining us today and I hope to meet many of you in September at Pack Expo Las Vegas. So have a great day and thank you Nancy and Melanie. You're welcome. Thanks. See you all in Pack Expo.