 Food is such a big lever that we can use to drive change, which is where I guess my optimism comes in because everybody eats. And if we eat three times a day, that's 1,000 meals over a year. And that's an opportunity each time we eat to put our dollars where our values are, but also to be able to raise our consciousness about doing that. And that's where I guess my optimism comes in. And that's where I guess my optimism comes in. Sharon Natoli is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Sharon is a communication expert who is passionate about creating a better future by helping individuals, organizations, and leaders speak up and be heard. She helps her clients own their voice, gain clarity around messages that matter and build personal, collective, and organizational power by sharing their thoughts, opinions, and ideas effectively and consistently with the world. Sharon believes when individuals are fully self-expressed, teams are connected, and organizations have an authentic voice about the future. Business thrives, innovation accelerates, cultures flourish, and relationships strengthen. She has 30 years' experience in communication, message development, speaking, and presenting, and has deep understanding of the power of the spoken and written word. Sharon has participated in hundreds of media interviews and been a spokesperson, filled spokesperson roles, regularly speaks at conferences and events, and has been a columnist, editor, and contributor to magazine, newspapers, and television programs. Sharon has extensive experience as an advisor to local and global food businesses on meaningful messages, development to enable future readiness and attract market attention. She is the author and co-author of four books and her background in food, nutrition, and counseling provides her with an in-depth understanding of the nuances of human behavior. This is the book that we will be discussing today, among many other things, with Sharon food for a better future is the book and wonderful gift from Sharon that she wrote wonderful things in the beginning of the book for me and gave me a real nice personal note. Also, she is a contributor to my book, which is a compilation of 34 plus other contributors called Menu B, and she speaks very wonderfully with all her understanding and knowledge in this industry to really engage with those readers and that I really want to thank Sharon for being on the show and welcome you to be here today. Thank you, Mark. It's great to meet you online after including your name in my book. You inspired me with a quote actually, and I was really taken with that, which was you mentioned something like our food, our products are not our products in relation to a company that you're involved in at the time, but it's how we produce them. And I think how is such an important part of the whole food and how we talk about food now is not just what, but how and why. That's absolutely so true. And it's really something that I say quite a bit and we mentioned it in the new book and I mentioned it pretty much every other podcast and in my speeches and discussions that I have around the world, it's really not the brands of the future or the products of the future or the food tribes of the future, whether it's vegan, flexitarian, paleo, keto on and on, and there's many more emerging every day that will solve human suffering, human health problems and our global grand challenges. And so I really kind of the mantra just to summarize the quote for those who might not have heard of before that is in your book so nicely put in there is it's really about how we produce that has the biggest impact to solve our global grand challenges in human suffering and human health. If we don't produce with pesticides, aromas, flavors, preservatives, high processing, things that are mineral and vitamin nutritionally empty to begin with and we don't produce packaging waste and environmental greenhouse gases in the process of that production, then it's very difficult, it's extremely hard to make one bad products that are bad for health or bad for our environment and it's just a better model to solving a lot of the problems that we have in our world. And one thing that usually falls under the radar with that is in that process of how we produce it's looking very strongly at the natural capital and the true cost that it costs to produce those foods which in our world has kind of gone under the rug or have been swept under the rug that we don't pay the true cost or the natural capital of those resources and water and transportation and many other things that go into the production of those products. So I really appreciate the nice addition of the quote in there, you've been doing this for such a long time and I'm so glad that we were finally able to find a time to speak on the podcast. I'm overwhelmed with your contribution so eloquently in the book. Having said that, you've been talking and discussing all these topics for such a long time and then 2020 boom, we were hit with some of the craziest times our world has ever faced very, very hard times, not just the pandemic and mutations of the pandemic but Brexit and the EU issues and Black Lives Matters and Asian racism and the inauguration of the United States, the craziness that rippled throughout the world that were really kind of saying these are the craziest times ever and I wanna know a couple of things. How have you weathered this crazy time? But all those years that you've been speaking about that there's better ways, better ways to communicate better ways to operate, has that helped you to weather this time any better? And how have you been and did it prove to be a more resilient or better model for life that kind of say, yeah, well, I made it through okay but here's some better models ways to live or I also had some learning lessons for my clients and things that I did that bubbled to the surface that have shown us. So if you could address that, I'd really appreciate it. I wanna know how you've been during this time. Yes, look, luckily in Australia we've been, I think pretty lucky with the way that things have been handled here in terms of COVID. We have had outbreaks and things but nowhere near as bad as certainly other areas in the world. So grateful that I do live in Sydney and in Australia. So I think that, so I guess weathered it fairly fairly well from a food industry perspective, obviously there was big changes and challenges with the distribution of food. And of course in Australia we have larger distances through which food needs to travel from place to place across between states and so on. But one of the good things I think out of this time is really getting accustomed to this way of communicating online that it's brought us closer together in many ways. And I'm a big fan of in-person connection and I think we can't replace that completely. And that recently I got together with some people who had only just met online over the course of the last 12 months and it was so nice to actually connect with them in person. And you do get those different, the ability to really, the touch and the feel and that sort of thing. But what I was able to, well what I did last year and was really good in terms of bringing people together was started an initiative called the Virtual Lunch Room where I interviewed people from across the food sector to hear their stories of change and hear what they were doing during that time. And so we got together over a virtual lunch and we provided a platform for them to share what was happening for them. And that was really to create that connection but also to provide a platform to the inspiration because inspiring change is I think really the way to go when it comes to the future. You know, when it comes to behavior change we can try and coerce people or we can try and motivate or we can inspire and I think inspiration is the way to go. So hearing other people's stories and what you do in terms of providing a platform for discussions and conversations is really important. And so I think when it's certainly one of the benefits from this last to 18 months now, isn't it? Nearly or more over a year is that we've got used to this way of communicating and so it feels quite comfortable now to be talking with you. You're in Germany, I'm in Sydney and you know, I think that's a benefit. We're more accessible, I feel through online communication and getting used to this, you know, video conversation. I really appreciate you giving us that very upbeat message of what you've experienced and you're a very positive person, you're big on bringing people together, making connections and having these positive communications. But I'm gonna hack a little bit deeper. I wanna go a little bit deeper and see how you're having this positive experience and staying so upbeat and positive and to tell us a little bit more. The reason I am, so Australia and even New Zealand have a very unique culture, a very unique culture around food, views of their life and some summer sex, super positive, super progressive when it comes to pandemics and rallying as nations and doing the right positive things. But in some other respects, a big struggle. Before the pandemic hit, you guys from November, December of 2019, clear into maybe February or even March or February, April, March, maybe even to April, you guys experienced severe brush-froling severe brush fires. I actually saw so extreme brush fires, it's unbelievable. And you're kind of close to New South Wales and really kind of the epicenter in some respects of seeing some of those issues bubble up just for the listeners and to put that into perspective because those brush fires since the pandemic started were almost brushed under the rug. Before the pandemic, we were seeing selfies and photos of koala bears and kangaroos and kind of in the midst of these flames. And I had John Pickrell on the show who wrote the book Flames of Extinction and talked about this extensively but this brush fire was actually worse than an atomic bomb going off for the emissions and for the amount of impact that it had. A year in Australia alone, your emissions for an entire year are really somewhere around 600 million tons of emissions a year. Just during that period from really from December to March or even February of those brush fires, you admitted more than your yearly, entire yearly carbon emissions for a country which is that in and of itself is unbelievable that I don't think humanity can fathom how big that is. 530 million tons annually I think is the normal but it was between 650 million and more accurate statements now are coming as we're getting more data to 1.2 billion tons of CO2 that I was admitted at that time. 19 million, 19 million hectares were lost in the fires. One lightning strike in the Blue Mountains which is a World Heritage Site burned 85,000 hectares in one month, three billion wild animal species were lost, seven billion tree trees were lost. Oh, those are huge numbers and I don't wanna be doom and gloom but to get into the reality about it and you're the expert there on communication, that's an impact that you just don't recover from and you're not hearing about that extreme biosphere, biodiversity loss and the impact of that. So I just kinda wanna get your views on that and how you've recovered it but also through all that loss, what's happening? What are you doing? Is that okay? Is that something that we can get back into range or how do you deal with all that? Yeah, so look, it was devastating, the bushfires, it was very, I mean, I'm in Sydney and we're in it, so we're in a city but we have the smoke and the effect of the bushfire even in the cities and of course all the devastation in terms of as you mentioned, the wildlife and the land and the biodiversity impacts and so on. So I think, yeah, definitely Australia has a long way to go. We're very much behind in many ways when it comes to climate change, action, policy, those sort of things and from a dietary perspective as well, we have the highest out of the G20, we have the highest per capita greenhouse gas emissions from our diet. You're right in terms of being in the country like Australia, there is a lot of work to be done and that's why I think one of the things about food, so my area of expertise is in the food sector is that food is such a big lever that we can use to drive change, which is where I guess my optimism comes in because everybody eats and if we eat three times a day, that's 1,000 meals over a year and that's an opportunity each time we eat to put our dollars where our values are but also to be able to raise our consciousness about doing that and I guess also to link that to things like the bushfires and the state of our climate and to put the power into the hands of individuals to make a difference. And one of the big things I think that we need to work on or drive a change of thinking in is that we feel as though we don't make a difference and so when we talk about big numbers or big impacts and climate change and sustainability, you know, these big things that we talk about can feel so big that we can think, oh, they're so big and so, you know, we're so far down the track, can we actually make a difference and feeling as though and so we've got to be able to, I guess walk a line between, yes, you know, we've got these big problems and we need to be realistic and aware that, yes, and in Australia, you know that we're actually quite a way behind where other countries are in many respects and our diets, you know, not sustainable. So, but how do we bring that down to then, okay, as an individual, I can make a difference and overcome that sense of indifference that I think drives us, you know, traps us in a sense of apathy. So that's where I think inspiration can come in is because being able to address indifference is, well, we can say, you make a difference, you know, Mark, yes, you are important and you make a difference and we can go, okay, but was that really gonna drive change or is that gonna change our mindset or, you know, we can connect people around a common purpose and create that collaboration and that feelings and sense that we're working together towards something. So talking about and connecting with people's values, creating connection around a common purpose, inspiring people is, I think, how we can address that sense of indifference. I really like that and that perspective. If you don't mind, I wanna go just a tad bit deeper. So the way I see it is really because most humans eat three times a day, it's really one of the biggest ways we can draw down some of the effects or having an influence on something that can seem big and overwhelming, but just in the way we eat, we do it three times a day over 1,000 meals a year and it's a way that we can really have an impact on that and connect by not just connecting ourselves to food, but also understanding a little bit where that source comes from. So I always say that the basic energy source for human beings is food. It's a breathing food and water, but really it is food. It's what the measurement, it's a caloric intake or a calorie is a measurement of energy. So I don't want you to count your calories, but I want you to understand it's a measurement of energy that regulates our body temperature and keeps, so to say, our motor running, keeps us, our body temperature regulated gives us the energy to work and do the things that we need to do. And to put that energy source in the hands or the reliance of someone else, to me would seem like a huge risk factor, a place where I'm vulnerable. I would never buy a car and not know where I'm gonna get the gasoline from or even an electric car and not know how I'm gonna charge the battery on limited mileages to drive that car or a cell phone that I couldn't know how I'm gonna charge it up so that I can use it. But to go more personal, I would never wanna put that full responsibility on someone else on how and where I get the right energy to keep my motor running. And so I think it's not only the biggest way to draw it down, but it's the biggest way to reconnect ourselves to that energy source, which gives us a lot of resilience, a lot of, it's a better operating system. It gives us a lot of empowerment to not feel overwhelmed on such a big thing. And during the, I don't know how it wasn't in Australia, but in the United States and in Europe, just a few days into the pandemic, shells of long lasting non-perishable items on the grocery store cells were totally empty. People were buying water and mastroves and toilet paper like unbelievable, you know? And there are some big questions around that. And so I wanna go even a little bit deeper is what are your thoughts on that, the culture and seeing that connection? And do you think that's bubbling to the surface? Is there more awareness and what are you saying that that awareness is gaining momentum now that we've gone through the pandemic? People say, boy, I don't wanna be in that situation ever again and I wanna kind of take more control. I'd like to get more feedback on your views. Yeah, yes, in Australia, we did have the same thing. The shelves were empty of pasta and flour and sugar and toilet paper. So we did see that. And one of the people that I interviewed last year was from a company that does food cubes, which is a grown system, you know, where you can grow your own food in a cube and it has a water saving aspect to it and a self-watering aspect to it is quite easy. And two weeks into the pandemic, his sales were more than tripled because people were concerned about food security. And so, you know, you can grow the equivalent of three adults, the fruit, the vegetables for three adults over the course of a year in these food cubes in a space besides of two car parts. And so, yeah, their sales really increased because people were concerned about food security. And so one way, of course, to address that is to grow your own food. And another person, excuse me, how I talked to last year from Sustain Australia also found that increased interest in home gardening and that people had found over the pandemic last year, not only that reconnects, you know, the food security side of growing your own food at home, but also that as an outlet for stress management, you know, in times of uncertainty, it's people gives you a focus reconnecting to nature and also connecting with others in community gardens and things like that. So there was the, yes, definite evidence of increased interest in growing food at home to address food security and also much more interest in local food. So Australian grown and made. And food that provided some immune benefits as well. So I think a lot of companies ended up dumping on that as a bit of a marketing thing, but how can I eat to protect my immune system? So there was, yes, change driven around more local and food production. And so, you know, where it comes from and how it's grown, I guess, more so where it's grown, but also from as people have more time at home and did more cooking themselves, that interest in food was, you know, become higher, which is a really positive thing to add up out of last year and this year. So I love the fact that you're also wearing your sustainable development goal pin. And you know that I'm an advocate for the SDGs and have been since 2015 and that that really is the world's first ever global moonshot, the sustainable development goals. And it's a date, September 25th, 2015, that is a historical date in humanity's history. It's the first time ever that 197 countries came together, which is unheard of, unprecedented and agreed not only on the sustainable development goals, but then later in December agreed on the Paris Agreement to keep our planet at 1.5 degrees of warming. A lot of people don't understand, oh, who are the sustainable development goals for? Are they for countries and cities or corporations? And they're really very misunderstood and they were presented to us very linear and lateral from one to 17 kind of a siloed approach of presenting them, but they are a system. They're all tied together. And the unique thing is for our area of focus is all 17 are tied to agriculture, seafood, food and beverage industries. They're all tied to food and they're tied together as a system. It's virtually impossible to work on one sustainable development goal and not touch on the others because they're a system. And so when companies or cities or countries say, oh, we're working on this one and this one, there's no cherry picking them because you automatically touch on them all. And they're the basic protection plan or the big plan for humanity and for our basic resources and our needs. And I really love that you've also embraced that and talk about it and in your contribution in the book, you really go into detail about the SDGs and how not only everybody has a seat at the table but how we can imply them into our lives and how we should look at them. And I just loved what you had to say about it that we shouldn't underestimate our ability. I just wanna reiterate one more time, it's the world's first ever global moon shot. It's a historical precedence. If you know anything about politics or delegates or politicians, it's hard enough for two countries to come together and decide where they're gonna eat lunch let alone 197 on a plan, a roadmap of action to get us to a better December 2030, a better future. And I look at it just like I said, a caloric unit, a calorie is a measurement of energy. I look at the sustainable development goals as an insurance plan for humanity and our earth to get us to a better future and also as a very set roadmap on how to get there. I've spoken to and have other people from Australia and New Zealand in the book. Nika Moles where she basically is a farmer. She's in a very arid area where she's doing farming. She's doing sheep and other animal agriculture in a very rough area to do that. And then there's Paul Noonham who is the head or CEO of SDG2 Advocacy which is number two SDG is zero hunger, basically addressing hunger and how we address that around the world. And many others where I'm getting to is I really think that not only to realize that there's a plan for the future but in each specific area of the world where we live we need to make kind of an assessment of how the infrastructure and the basic needs are being met and that's done through what you do. Communication, a form of advocacy, helping organizations and people understand what's the situation we're in how do we communicate that in a very positive way and what are the actions and the tools moving forward? And so I really wanna know maybe even if you could I don't want you to be too negative but I would like you to say what are the challenges that you face in your region with Australians? Is it because they're big meat eaters? Is it because they're looking for the government to solve the solution or what are some things that you've seen and what are the tools that you provide them to help them kind of do and talk about it differently but also maybe even not just food and other ways to talk about any topic at a world stage or at an organizational level that really can help them get onto a better track a better operating manual for their organization or their life. Yeah, it's a good discussion. We are having back when we could travel and I was in Europe and Italy in 2019 and the sustainable development goals are very much more part of the conversation in Europe compared to Australia. And we have very, I guess we didn't have any I guess research or data or anything looking at how well they've been adopted by food businesses in Australia. And I know that so from a business perspective they're more aware or startups and you know accelerator programs are well aware of the sustainable development goals but they're not as mainstream in Australia. And Food and Nutrition Australia, which is my business we decided to do a little bit of research into this last year as a bit of a project. And we looked at the top 100 food and drink companies in Australia and were they reporting against the sustainable development goals were they talking about them from a communication perspective because I think there's no doubt that like exactly what you said like that they're a global agreement about this is the way to go. So if you want to create a better future well, you don't have to make up the targets they're already there. So that's a I think that's a big benefit. You just go, yep, that's the way we're going. And then it's like how we're going to get there and how we committed to it. And we looked at, you know, we looked at publicly available information on the websites of the top 100 companies. So it's just a little bit of an overview, I guess, or a little bit of a dipstick into looking at how well the sustainable development goals were being taken up. And we found that 83% of the top 100 companies operating in Australia, they're the food and drink companies mentioned sustainability somewhere on their website. So that indicates the majority have that on their mind into some extent, I guess. And 61% took extra initiatives by having like they had a specific section around sustainability on their website. But many cases that was, you know, packaging was the main thing that they looked at. And only 18% actually mentioned the Sustainable Development Goals. And that doesn't mean that some of them don't have them somewhere within their business as part of what they do or, you know, in their reporting, internal reporting, perhaps, but it's a very, you know, it's a small number. It's 18% of the top 100 don't have the Sustainable Development Goals top of mind enough to put them on, you know, to put some sort of mention of them on their website as a starting point. And so there's a lot of agreement that this is important. But, you know, it's, there's much more. There's two things I guess there's, well, let's take, let's do more and take action because that's the right thing to do. We've agreed on that as a country. But it also makes sense to me from a communication perspective because the biggest currency for a business is trust. And the way to generate trust is to connect to the things that people value. And we know and we mentioned the bushfires and the climate change and that sort of thing. It's much, much more top of mind and it was very much, very much top of mind leading up to our last federal election. So from a political perspective, you know, from a business perspective, it makes sense to be talking about the things that people care about. And climate, the climate is one of them. Sustainable Development Goals are the way to go. And it's very, very easy as you said also to connect all of the Sustainable Development Goals. To food. And as you said too, you can't, you know, just pick one and not be off, not be actually addressing some of the others. So I think, I think there's an opportunity for companies to, to make a difference, but also for that to be good for business. And that's that, you know, idea of being purposeful and viable. You know, they go together. These days you can't, I don't think you can really have a business that's going to survive in the long term without having a purpose and doing the next right thing as well. That's beautiful. And, you know, that's so true. And really, I'm glad that we're hopefully emerging out of this pandemic and lockdown and the craze in the future. And maybe on the horizon. There, there may be other things and we know from climate change and that, that, that there will be other things that come. But I want to refer back to, you know, at the beginning and clear till. To this point. There's been economic. Extreme economic downturn and hardships. Crisis. There's been a lot of, there's been a lot of, there's been a lot of economic downturn and hardships. Crisis. There's been a lot around food insecurity and a lot of around. Around health that emerge. But the real concern for organizations that have had to lay off and close down, maybe you might not roll. Open back up and it's really food is an essential thing. And I think it's important to remember that. That we were allowed to remain open in the stamp to remain open during this time. And when we saw. During this period that those food organizations that were essential services and were allowed to remain open. That some of them thrived and flourished extremely well. And others who had the wrong model or the wrong structure. Really were affected not only with more COVID. But also with more and more COVID conditions in Germany. A big meat company called Tunis was had extreme problems, extreme cases and. Shut down and the shelves were empty for meats, but also because of contamination, many other things in the United States. The meat sector was a big issue. I don't know how it was in Australia or New Zealand. You could, you could tell us that. a transition or a journey over the last century really. And it's really started out as a health safety and environment or health and safety executives, then it went into compliance, then it went into corporate social responsibility, CSR. And now it's really went to environmental social governance. And maybe even before environmental social governance, there's been a lot of talk since 2015 around the SDGs and applying those into your business. What we saw in 2020, first quarter, second quarter, third quarter and fourth quarter of investing, those organizations that had applied the SDGs and environmental social governance into their business models, all weathered this pandemic and this economic downturn, better than their conventional counterparts. So in the first or second quarter of 2020, a lot of people say, oh, it's just a fluke. Maybe it's not real, it's gonna end. And that curve just continued, climbed and climbed and climbed to the end of the fourth quarter of 2020. So the NICI index, the New York stock exchange, the NASDAQ, the S&P 500, the S&P Globally. In the first quarter of 2020, the Morning Star Review said that 25 out of 28 of sustainable index funds outperformed their conventional counterparts 25 out of 28. That was in the first quarter. By the time we got to the fourth quarter, it was 27 out of 28 had outperformed their conventional counterparts. And the index funds, the ESG performance was on a hockey stick curve and it has not stopped. This year, we're into half of the year already. And the first two quarters, same thing, outperformings, it's proven to not only be profitable, it's proven to be a better secure resilient model. It's a better operating system and model for your business. So it's not like before the big talk was, boy, sustainability is expensive, it's hard, we don't understand, it's hard to implement. Now that's been blown out of the water because those who had implemented it before and even got on the bandwagon during 2020 and made changes that needed to be made in the organization, they're all like, why didn't we do this years before? And you kind of touched upon this in your discussion as well that organizations are kind of almost faking it. You said the SDGs, some have it on their website and we call that greenwashing, but it's this principle to kind of fake it until you make it, which is a very positive thing. So I encourage any organization to try to fake it until they make it and even if it's half-hearted because the results we've seen over time is that their customers, their employees, their contractors and in their organization will all say, even if they don't know their greenwashing, they'll say, wow, this is really seeing positive results and people are happy and they like that we're talking about this and they like that we're moving and that most organizations within less than a year have usually come back and said, wow, we only kind of half-heartedly did this because we thought that's where the trend is, but look what it's showing us that better results, better communication, people are buying even more, they love it and then they make that shift 100% and they're like, oh my goodness, this is a better operating system, this is a better model, not only for profit but also for human health and the environment and I don't know how you've seen that as well but it's just a time over time that's been proven and I wanted to see what you've seen in that respect. Yeah, yeah, I love what you've just said. I think that we do need to look like business from a business perspective, look more broadly at all of the good things that making a commitment to sustainability does because there is the climate part and the actual, I guess, the practicalities of it and what we need to do from a global response, being a responsible business, but bringing that insight then it does create that, it does help to retain staff to create a better culture because we know that more people are looking for to work for companies that are more meaningful. So if you can talk about how you're committed to the Sustainable Development Goals, you have those initiatives in place, then that makes, it makes so much sense for a food company in particular to use that as the meaningful part of what they do. So that creates that connected culture and therefore people feel better about coming to work, they feel more inspired, they're gonna do a better job, you're gonna move faster, and then that all sort of links together up the chain and then hopefully we do move faster towards the 2030 target. So yes, I think thinking more broadly and certainly we've seen in Australia, I think it's investment in like responsible investing has tripled since 2013. So when money goes in a particular direction and of course that helps to create movement as well from a business perspective. And the other thing I liked about what you just said is the idea that sort of a fake it till you make it, well, yes or no I guess, but the key thing out of that I think is the idea of talk about creating currency in better, like how can we, yes, let's just get better and create currency in that, like let's reward that, let's encourage that and not expect that we've gotta be perfect before we talk about what we're doing or go out and say we're making change because we can get stopped also from trying to do things, get to 100% have nowhere where people can criticize us. But today people are really interested, like transparency in what we're doing is talking about, well, we aren't perfect, we know that we've still got this to do but we're trying our best and this is what we are doing. And so I think a lot of the time from a business perspective, I can see that leaders and people in the industry are a bit reluctant to talk about some of the things they're doing because they might be doing this but they're not doing this over here. And so they're afraid that they're going to get criticized for this bit over here when actually if you're honest and transparent and authentic that actually people appreciate that. So yes, but I love what you said about fake it till you make it and then they go, oh yeah. Oh absolutely, open and transparency is very vital and I'm gonna let everyone in on a secret. So those organizations that are greenwashing or trying to fake it, not fake it till they make it they don't know that yet, they're just faking it. They're kind of following what they think is a trend and sustainability and kind of giving an outward presence of that. Those who do it are quickly, the curtains are lifted and whether they're truly faking it comes out very quick because of open and transparency and because consumers are smart and other companies and organizations are very smart as seeing whether that's true or not whether a project that they're doing that has a start and end date is just a project to appease humanity or if it's something that transitions and transforms the world for better. And when you follow up with them in a year no humanity hasn't forgotten what you said back then are you going to continue that process? Are you going to continue? So it's actually in some respects kind of a trick because once they get into that it's hard to go back unless you take a strong stance that you don't believe in climate and food and in the environment and those things. And so it's just an automatic path to go in the right direction. I wanna discuss just a tad bit more and then I'll stop harping on New Zealand and Australia as far as focus in on what's happening in that neck of the worlds but there's really so much positive and so many wonderful things there as an example to the rest of the world that I wanna bring up but also as a form of awareness. So to have that awareness and that knowledge of the true assessment of what's going on where you live and where you belong is so important because it keeps you from being ignorant about what's happening for the future and you won't arrive in the future and say how did we not know this or how did we not act or handle in the right way? And specifically towards that end is really this year it was just announced I believe two weeks ago that Earth Overshoot Day will fall on July 29th this year. Earth Overshoot Day is calculated based on a global hectare. 1.6 global hectares are replicable meaning that's replicable meaning if we each every human being on Earth had 1.6 global hectares they would have enough security, shelter, food, water and to live a long and abundant life 80, 90, 100 years of age if they had good stewardship over that global hectare. So Earth Overshoot Day in 2020 was August 22nd and because of the pandemic and certain things we gained I think 24, 25 days but now we actually have seen that we've actually on resources on emissions and many other things we're back to July 29th as the day we've gone beyond our finite resources because per person on this Earth we're using 2.98 global hectares per person on a global average which is a resource overshoot or a deficit. The reason I bring that up is for a couple. Germany reached Germany's overshoot day on Cinco de Mayo, May 5th. It's one of my favorite days. I love Mexican food, I love to eat it and for me it's a fiesta, it's a day of celebration. I go into food frenzy and I just love Mexican food and I loved that day. One of my good friends' birthday is on that day as well but I just love the food. Well, on that day, the 5th of May Germany had gone over their finite resources four months into the year and five days, unbelievable not even half of the year. And I'm like, how can that be? And you might have heard this before that if we all live like Germans we would need three and a half planets worth of resources. If we all live like Americans we would need like five and a half planets worth of resources. The reason I bring it up is Australia is so great place because it's such a big space and you have so much. You're the only country in the entire world living within the planetary boundaries and living within your global hectare. As a country, I believe you're the closest I think you might even be in December on your Earth Overshoot because of those hectares that you have and those resources which is in some respects it means that that feedback loop of seeing what the problems are are not as present because there's more space even though we're all on the spaceship Earth because of that, Australia is in a pretty good and probably doing the best just from sheer population and land size that hectare which is nice. But on the flip side, and this is ties to food a lot there's an assessment that we do on city levels community levels, state levels and country levels of how many workers for food are there how much is produced by farms and production and manufacturing facilities and then how much is exported and how much is imported. And for Australia, it's really where high animal agriculture sheep, pigs, cattle, which as we know we don't need to go into very heavy on environmental impacts and also human health impacts as a dietitian nutritionist, you really know the ins and outs on that and we can discuss that as well. But as we look at how much of those meat products or those animal products are shipped outside of Australia I think the last study I looked at it and it was in 2019 was saying that close to 90% if not even more of all the animal agriculture that was produced in Australia was being first shipped to China and then other places in the world. That's quite a substantial amount but then also the same amount was being there was not a same but a very substantial amount was being shipped back in and then other products that you do how many you ship out and then that same amount is being shipped back in and so it's like doesn't make sense why are we shipping this out and then shipping the same amount in and there's this assessment imbalance and what's going on but more so than that imbalance. I kind of give an analogy if my home was Australia and I says I'm going to go to Germany on vacation and I want you to come in and live in my home for a year and he says, oh great, no problem I'm gonna don't charge anything, you don't pay anything and the whole time you're here you never took out the garbage you never washed the dishes you never did the laundry and you just left all that mess and when I came back after a year boy my house was full of garbage of stank fruit flies and everything's everywhere and things were mildewing rotten the dishes were all piled up that waste and that was all left for me to handle and then you get to go back to your home where you were at and say, oh great in Australia when you produce animal agriculture there's the water resources there's the environmental impact of soil degradation and methane emissions and other emissions from those animals and the real natural cost the true capital of that cost of producing those animals the all the environmental impact remains on Australia and those that you're shipping that product to never get to, they're like, oh I'm so glad that Australia kept all basically and I hate to say it but it kept the shit in Australia because you're allowing others to shit on you and here's the caveat those products aren't being sold for true cost and true value they're being sold pretty cheap there's no environmental cost impacts true cost impacts being recouped in the cell of those products for all the environmental damage and human health damage on your air pollution that's incurred from that animal production in Australia and that's an imbalance that's a thing that just can't go on forever and I'm wondering why and it's not just Australia the same thing is happening in Brazil with the burning down of the rainforest to have farms and produce more cattle and agriculture and so I really wanna see is that truly in the minds of everyone in Australia whether they're tied to the agriculture place or not that those environmental and human health impacts of producing those animals isn't a long term being accounted for for those externalities which could have produced more brush fires or made the brush fires more intense or the certification more intense because of the way you're treating your land. Yes, so yeah, in Australia we have a I guess traditionally it's a high meat intake meat consumption is dropping because we know particularly younger people now are interested in much more of a plant-based diet so the demand, there's a shift in demand. I know that the industry has we did have a future of meat session in our virtual lunchroom last year where we spoke to someone from the sustainability manager from Meat and Livestock, Australia and they are looking at, you know what things like putting seaweed in the feed of the cattle which reduces the methane production of the animals and other initiatives on farm to look at how they can improve the production side of meat. So there are changes and I guess that's what we can hope for at this point is yes, there is change that things don't just dang the same so from a production perspective and then also from a local demand perspective there are changes. But I know that in that Eat The Port that I mentioned earlier last year that our Australia talked the list for greenhouse gas emissions per capita for our diet because meat is such a big part of it. So yes, there's change to be made and it's happening. I guess the question is how fast and I can't answer that specifically but there is change, yes, yes and we need to continue to work on that. What do you see the culture is there pushback from the culture of just creating a different food system and I just wanna caveat by no means so I say we all need to go vegan or stop eating meat. I believe that there are some very good regenerative practices on grass fed and grazing animals that are outside and very humane conditions that actually stimulate other types of agriculture that stimulates the soils and it develops and it helps avoid desertification and if it's done right in that combination of not just chickens and pigs and cattle can be a very positive effect. But how can we do it with the true costs and total environmental costs and those things? So don't please don't anyone get me wrong but I don't wanna be an extreme vegan and that's absolutely not the project. It's just these long-term effects that sometimes we don't see in the immediate moment and so I was hoping maybe if you've had to deal with those cultures and what your thoughts or pushbacks are what you've experienced because you are from there and you've experienced that I have family in New Zealand, in Auckland, New Zealand and Julie Busell who's a famous chef and cookbook and shows a host of food show as well. And so it is a big topic in general in the region and so I just wanted to know what the awareness and the transition and then also with the aboriginal culture as well there's a huge issue with the way diets have shifted and changed over the years which is creating all sorts of other social and health and economic problems in general. So I just wanted to get an insight from on the ground and what you're seeing and how that is progressing and improving or if it still has a lot of work to do. Yeah, so I think it's really important that we eat culturally appropriate diets and so I guess in Australia what is the culturally appropriate diet? But there is no one diet. I'm not an advocate for, there's one kind of planetary diet because one of the things, we talk about physical health but there's also the cultural aspects of food and so if you're Mexican, yes, either a Mexican traditional diet or if you're Indian-eater traditional Indian diet or Italian diet, that sort of thing. If we ate culturally appropriate diets I think that will go a long way and one of the things that we need to look at too is to slow down the adoption of the Western style of eating by countries like China. We're seeing that Westernization of their diet and China, that's one way that we can help to address some of the dietary problems that we have. I also, I'm not, one of the things that we saw early on and I think, and I'm starting to see this change is that we've been given that message about we'll eat less meat and that's less meat, less dairy. That's the best thing you can do for the planet from a dietary perspective. And we saw a lot of highly processed meat alternatives come in and we know that, so there's the eating less meat but is replacing meat with a highly processed alternative really the answer and not really because there's research to show that ultra high processed foods are bad for your health as well and some of these products fit into that. So now we're starting to see meat alternatives that are maybe made from more whole foods and they have a more whole food ingredient list which is better because we're going to get the benefits of the whole food like shiitake mushrooms we're seeing being used in meat alternatives and so on. But ultimately, there's beans and there's nuts and seeds and things that we can eat as alternatives which will do the job as well. So we're definitely, to answer your question on the ground, one of the biggest changes is that we are seeing people eat less meat. So you can go anywhere now and get a vegan option on the menu from fast food chains to restaurants to anywhere just like we saw maybe gluten free take off a few years ago. So that's one of the biggest trends that we're seeing. So there is that change on the ground and I think the other important point though around this too is that we speak a lot about meat and dairy and we often forget about just that we eat so much junk food in Australia 40% or 35% for adults and 40% for kids of our calories come from junk foods. So it's not, I think it's really important not to forget just that we need to eat better quality diets and if we reduced our intake of junk food and ate better quality foods then we'd have better health and we'd have a better environment. And reducing our intake of those kind of highly processed junk foods has almost as much impact as eating less meat. So I think we've got to keep that on the agenda as well as part of the discussion and the conversation. In your book, you also talk about some solutions and moving forward kind of nourishing the future and some tools and tips and tricks that people can use to have compelling communication, to connect cultures, to be compassionate leaders to understand this. So a lot of people don't wanna get into the discussion some that we've had today because they could be controversial or political or cross boundaries or hurt people's feelings because food is a very cultural and impersonal thing. You're like, I'm hungry and I don't give a crap what you're saying. I wanna eat and don't tell me I can't have this and people don't wanna be told what they're doing and on the flip side, a lot of people don't wanna put innovations in their mouth when it's so we have this wonderful innovation plant-based meat or whatever else and I don't wanna eat an innovation. I wanna eat because it's convenient, I'm hungry, I'm starving and I wanna eat that. And so I'd like to kind of maybe the tools or the things that you use if you don't mind giving us some sneak peeks or some things on how you would advise people and what you would tell them and how to help them on this journey to make a transition because it's not something that happens like that it's something that as a journey and you have to kind of wake up to this understanding on how the ripple effects and how it really impacts us long-term. Yes, yeah, it's having provided advice to individuals for a couple of decades. It is hard to change people's diets. So there needs to be some internal desire to change and we know that food, as you said, it gives us energy. It really provides us with our life force from within. So food is thinking of food as nourishment and it's this food nourishing me. I think it's a good question to ask yourself when you're eating and nourishing me doesn't necessarily mean nutrients. Is it nourishing me just from nutrients? It could be that perhaps sometimes you really do feel like I don't know, a piece of homemade banana cake or something and go, well, this is really nourishing me because it's something I made. I made a banana bread with my son the other day and it's just like really nourishing because you've made it together and it's winter here and it's really nice. So is the food nourishing me? And going back maybe even to the start, which is like how is the how around food? So how we eat is important too. So not just how food is produced, but sitting down appreciating, looking at the food and appreciating where it comes from, thinking about everything that's gone into it. If you look at a plate of food and you go, wow, you know, there's a farmer that grew that. It's come to me from wherever it's come from. It's being cooked or what have you. Having that sort of gratitude and mindfulness around food helps us to slow down and really enjoy what we're eating. And then eating with others too is helpful. So cooking together, eating together, appreciating the food together is, I think a nice way to go about it and to help us to slow down and to eat until we feel comfortable. And I like that there's a Japanese thing, which is Harahachi-vu, which means 80%, eat until you're 80% full and then stop. And that's another strategy too, is just to eat less. For us, where we're lucky enough to have a kind of full food supply at the moment, that we tend to, it's useful to stop when you feel 80% full and not to overeat. So, and then of course, not to waste food either. So looking at ways to if you've got leftovers, keep them, turn them into something else, buy what you need, buy what you need, eat what you need, stop when you feel comfortable. Some of those strategies I really like, rather than telling people what to eat. And so I'm a bit of a fan of the, there's some dietary guidelines which are based on how to eat, more around behaviors. So Brazil is a good example. And I quite like that idea as a way to give people practical advice that sort of, I think raises in our culture, we need to raise the value that we place on food or put more value onto food. And my in-laws are Italian and food is such an important part of the culture, which is a bit of a contrast to my upbringing as a third generation Australian. It was maintenance revenge kind of for dinner. And food wasn't that important in terms of our culture. So, yeah, appreciating food, being grateful for what we have and cooking, eating together, sitting down, I think a little good behaviors to adopt. I love that. And I have five last questions for you. Two of them are really probably the hardest ones that I have for you. And then the rest are for my listeners. The first one is really, do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world with the removal of nations, borders and divisions of humanity, one from another? With keeping in mind that COVID was a global citizen, food is a global citizen, air, water and species are a global citizen. How would you feel about a world like that? And do you think there's any benefits of that or how our world would look differently? So, do I see myself as a global citizen? Yeah, I think that we're all interconnected and that we are ultimately all on one earth. And so, if we, we are all the same, we are all part of the human race, no matter where we live, what country we're from. And so, yes, I would say I'm a global citizen from that perspective in terms of seeing us all as one and that there's so much opportunity to create a better world if we will embrace that common sense of humanity. What does a world that works for everyone look like for you? A world that works for everyone would look like helping each other, using each other, drawing on each other's strings and complimenting each other to be able to work together and collaborate, to create, I guess I'll work on projects that create a better world like together. Yeah. So, I'm gonna actually throw in one more question that's similar to what does a world that works for everyone look like for to you? But it's the burning question, WTF. And it's not the swear word that everybody thinks. It's actually what's the future or what's the futures? And I wanna know for your perspective, not from governments or community or cultures, I wanna know for you, what's the plan? What plan are you working towards and what's the future? Well, I like the future for me would look like reversing some of the impacts that we have created from a climate perspective and be able to regenerate nature, you know, land, water, air quality. So to be able to innovate in a way that creates that reversal of some of the impacts that we've had. And therefore, to be able and to be able to then have learned from the past to be able to sustain that world. So, yes, a little bit of, yeah, reversal and then maintenance from a wisdom perspective and an informed perspective. Yes. If there was one message that you could depart to our listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be your message? And it's okay if it's a couple of messages. You make a difference and that taking the perspective that in a lifetime, an average person may say, know a thousand people who know another thousand people, you're one person away from a million people. So knowing that you make a difference with what you say and what you do would be my message that, yes, you make a difference. And so thinking about what you do, taking responsibility because you know you make a difference would be my message. What have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start? I think now, like what I was talking about before about how we eat, I would adopt that much more early on. I've gone through the phase, when I first started working, we were talking all about low fat eating and high fiber eating and that sort of thing and so much about nutrients in food. I would drop all of that and just talk about how to eat and be an advocate for appreciating food and creating food culture that appreciates and elevates the value of food. And I would talk about the social, cultural, environmental aspects of food much more earlier on in my journey and not just the physical aspects. So that's been an evolution for me as a dietitian. We're trained in nutrients and the physical aspects of food more so than the social, cultural, environmental aspects. But we've talked about how everything's interconnected and that's all interconnected and that's what makes food such a powerful lever for change because we're not just addressing the physical and environmental aspects but we can bring people together and create collaboration and those conversations over food around a table. And I think we can create change faster if we eat together and we come up with our ideas over around the table. Absolutely love that. The United Nations has come together actually in 2020 the secretary general said that we will have a UN food system summit and they provided a seat at the table for anyone interested to talk about the complexities of our food system. And the pre-summit will be in July in Rome at the Food and Agriculture Organization, a UN organization in Rome for the pre-summit for the food system summit and then in New York in September and leading up to that matter of fact today I have a UN food systems dialogue meeting around the meat sector and the controversies in the meat sector and how it's emerging and how there's alternate proteins and many other things but I've been involved in several of those. It's a great opportunity for people to voice their concerns and have a seat at the table but also to get in and to understand the complexities of our food system and how it needs to be reformed on a finite planet so that we can have great energy sources in the future and one that's equal for all. Have you been involved in any of that or are you going to be involved in some of that and how do you feel about that opportunity? Yes, I was actually at a food system dialogue event the other week for the dairy industry here in Australia. So they have put together some thoughts and yes, one of my, I guess having been at that and it's a great opportunity to have a voice at a global level but we do need to provide the conditions for people to have their say. I think bringing people together is one thing but providing them actually with the opportunity to speak up and to voice what's on their mind and to contribute their ideas with another thing. And so we actually, when we get together often I think conversation can be dominated by a couple of people and you might have, I don't know, eight or 10 people around a table but you might only have two or three of them talking and so I'm sort of evolving now. My next thing is how do we create the, or give people the internal resources to speak up because we know that half people even though the environment may feel safe, half the people aren't going to speak up anyway. And so I think we have a lot of ideas that are trapped in people's minds that if we have the right conditions and provide them with the internal resources or personal power to speak up that that's going to be helpful. So yes, bring people to the table but give them the space to speak. I love that. And the dialogues are open for curators all over the world if you want to curate a dialogue yourself with whatever topics, there's five action tracks and then we have food heroes and food champions and many other things going on there. So please feel free to be involved. Really Sharon, that's all I have for you. We've answered all the questions. It's been a fabulous time and unless there's something that you didn't get a say then now's your chance to let us know what we missed or if I didn't let you get a word in edgewise to kind of tell us what you really wanted to say during our conversation. No, that's all right. Really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and it was really nice to meet you too. Sharon, thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas. It's been a sheer pleasure. It's good to finally see you and we'll find a time in the future to see each other personally again and for the first time and give you some copies of the book, Menu B. Thanks so much and have a wonderful evening. Thank you. Thank you. I have a good day. Yeah, thank you. Bye bye.