 To seal the breakfast and plus CB Africa, we look at the protection of the girl child. And we have a legal practitioner who joins the conversation, Justice Uwegbu, a human rights lawyer. Justice Uwegbu, it's good to have you join us this morning. Good morning. It is my pleasure. All right. Let's take a quick look at what transpired yesterday, more like reporting. The Lagos State House of Assembly has passed a motion seeking better protection of female children. The House, which earlier passed laws in favor of gender, hailed the state government for doing its best to safeguard the girl child. And of course, the Speaker presided over a session in commemoration of the 2022 International Girl Child Day, Obase, as is known, said the International Day provides an opportunity to talk about the challenges, including violation of minors, trafficking, drug abuse and cultism. It is also said it's also an opportunity to scrutinize the performance of government agencies, saddled with the responsibility of protecting the girl child. He added. Now, the motion was moved by Honorable Mojicola Ali Macaulay, who said that the theme for this year's celebration, our time is now and our rights and our future, seeks recognition of girl power, inclusiveness and political participation. And so the House Committee Chairman on Women Affairs and Poverty, Alleviation noted that girls worldwide have shown interest in politics, arts, education, poverty-related issues. Justice, once again, thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. But I'd like you to share your thoughts on this development. Don't you think that this is just a duplication of processes, or especially when we have the child rights law in Lagos that encapsulates, you know, all of this consent about the girl child? That way, rather, I see it as an advancement to the law. One of our legal Jewish professors who say that the law is to harmonize with the society. The implication of that is that the law goes alongside with the society. As the society goes, the law goes alongside with the society. So I would have to use this opportunity to turn the legal state out of assembly for doing a good job. And then no wonder the world is called the center of excellence here. There is child rights law existing, actually. But the issue we should be asking ourselves is to what extent has that law been enforced in our society today, especially as it affects the girl child? Many people, millions of Nigerians outside their state, abuse the rights of children in this country, especially the girl child, who see it every day, both on social media and everywhere. And there's little or nothing that most government agencies are doing about it. The government on its own has tried to an extent by setting out some agencies like the NAPTIB and all the rest. But the issue is that to what extent is this law being obeyed? The awareness during this time that adults, parents, guardians, leagues about the child law law, is it actually advancing, especially the girl child in our society? If you go outside there and see the sufferings of the girl child in this country, you will wait for our country. So I am totally in support and I applaud and thank the Lagos State as our assembly or government for coming up with such an advancement at the regularity of the girl child, Lagos State. Yes. So, I mean, that's fantastic what you have said, but it's also good that you pointed out the issue of enforcement. And so if we have the girl child, I mean the child rights law, which has been, of course, Lagos State has domesticated and that's why it's lower now. The consents are not different. So if you have a child, a child is a child, whether or not is a boy or is a girl. Not to say that there's anything wrong with protecting the girl child, but we're saying that the issues are not different from the issues that the girl child is faced with. So the issue of child marriage, prohibition of child marriage, child betrayal, exposure of child to the use of, you know, substances that are very toxic, the use of children in other criminal activities, sexual intercourse with a child, other forms of sexual abuses and what have you. Don't you think that it would have been important to ensure that, you know, that the lawmakers should pay attention to the issue of enforcement, ensuring that government agencies, everyone, there's a level of awareness rather than saying, well, at this point of moving another proposition or proposal where we say, oh, we need to pay attention because the issues with the girl child and the children in Nigeria are not almost different. They're one and the same thing. And like you have rightly stated, the level of enforcement is questionable. So what's the guarantee that if this becomes a law or if it's, you know, it's deliberated and it's been considered that implementation will be a thing? No, just like I said earlier, I see it as an advancement and an improvement to the existing law. And you see, we have a peculiarity in Nigeria whereby when laws are dear, many people for a long time, when they are not hearing anything about that law, they think that the law has become absolute or is no longer in existence. So if it is done on the agencies or the House of Assembly, the lawmakers to always keep on coming up with laws and the advancement in that particular direction. For example, I agree with you that yes, it was about the child rights laws, but the truth is this, when you talk about abuse of the child in our society, who are the vulnerable, it is the needy, it is the girl child, it's just like this issue of domestic violence in Nigeria. Domestic violence has been domesticated in several states in Nigeria, but to what extent has it been enforced? Today, we have one kind of orientation in this country that people do not see certain things as it is supposed to be natural. Some people will tell you we are in Africa, we are in Nigeria, we are not here to practice Western law or something like that. And that's one of the problems we have. So the most important thing is that once there is an advancement of these laws, remember that once there is an advancement of the law, the penalty also will change. If for example, the penalty for guilt child slavery or guilt child control is fixed or all the rest is wasted 10 years, once there is an advancement to that particular session of the law, definitely the punishment session will change. So these are some of the advantages of making an advancement to every law. So as far as I'm concerned, let me tell you the two, it is called review. As far as I'm concerned, first law is supposed to be reviewed every year. Alright. Justice Tuhuebo, we can't talk about the rights of the guilt child as we all mark international day of guilt child, and it gives us the chance to remember that we have some issues to fix as far as respecting the rights of the guilt child and indeed the rights of children are concerned, which you rightly said. But the rights of the guilt child, the plight of the guilt child, the fate of the guilt child in our society, like you said, is in a very, very, very bad situation, the rights are being trampled upon. But it's connected to the issue of gender equality, gender rights, which seems that the Nigerian society is not really receptive to. If you remember, the gender bill has tried to proceed or progress from the legislative stage to presidential assent and it's been struck down each time it's been brought up, even despite protests by the women and all that. What can you say about lack of rights for the guilt child in the larger context of the lack of rights for women in Nigeria and the apparent lack of acceptance of gender equality as a concept and a way of life in Nigeria? Well, you see, truly speaking, the issue of gender equality came, the campaign started more because of the kind of orientation we have in this country, in Africa generally and especially in Nigeria. Some other African countries have left Nigeria behind in that. So I have to tell you that, you see, today, there are so many people, especially in the Nigerian context, that do not believe that a woman should have a say when it comes to issues and they still have that orientation and which women assume they are nothing in our society. They forgot in Egypt, the 19th at that constitution, Simplicita, provides that you can never deny any person of anything, irrespective of his or her gender. So that is even equality we are talking about and that is even the gender sensitivity we are talking about. And how many people are adhering to this law? I have to tell you the truth, even the elites amongst us in the society are also guilty of this. Coming to various families, maybe they don't regard women as anything, but most of these people, they travel outside the country, they see what is happening there. But when they come here, they tell you, no, that is the Western world that we are in Nigeria. So for me, the women, we should keep on pushing. Women cannot only do it alone. And let us also remember that every person today in the world, in Nigeria, came to a woman. So we're even supposed to accord them more respect than even men. For me, that's my personal opinion. They are supposed to be treated whom they are by implication. But unfortunately here, we are not doing it that way. In politics, I tell you that women are coming up in politics today. But people still campaign against them. How can a woman come to rule us? How can a woman come to go on? But look at some countries that women have governed. Look at how well they are doing and all the rest or how well they were done at the past. So I saw them consign. The rights of a girl child should be a continual advancement on yearly basis so that this aestheticization can go around. So that if there are so many people that we believe you kill them today, they will tell you they can never respect a woman. But they forgot that they came to a woman. So our orientation at times, it works, but who's me? And moreover, like you said, even the constitution, the fundamental human rights, the section, the chapter four of the national constitution as amended that talks about fundamental human rights, is always talking about any person. Any person. He did not even say a man or a woman. So by implication, why should we not try to discriminate between a man and a woman? Okay, but let's talk about the consents of the house. We're talking about the house committee, chairman of women affairs and poverty alleviation, saying that the consents of a girl child worldwide includes their interests, they have indicated interests in politics, arts and education and what have you. Don't you think that we're already jumping, I mean putting the cart before the horse, especially where the basic needs of children, I would say children and also the girl child to be specific has not been met that we begin to talk about all this. We're talking about just the basic issues, having access to education, quality life and what have you. Don't you think that it feels like we're moving too fast? No, I don't see that way. I don't see that way because we say that without laws, women beings are the worst animal. So that is why laws should always come up every time. I don't know whether you are aware that there are some people in this country that believe that a woman should not even go to school, even at this age we are today, that believe that a woman, okay, for example, there are so many places in Nigeria, there are so many jobs in Nigeria that still believe and practice this doctrine of women can not inherit their property and all the way. It is an issue everywhere. So it becomes the issue of every time woman, woman, woman. Then you forgot the issue that every person, the law provides the quality before the law and that is part of the rule of law. So if there is a quality before the law, why should it come when it comes to policies, when it comes to sharing of properties, when it comes to gangs, you don't want to sideline the woman. Is this what the constitution is to play? If the constitution is actually our current norm, why are we trying to practice that? Even the elites, some of them even the law because they are even guilty of this when it comes to them. I know what I'm saying. I've had this, I've done so many cases on that. So I thought I'm consigned. This is not even supposed to be a state law. That's why I'm happy with the Augusta government. It's supposed to be a national legislation. Somebody tried to push for the gender equality last time at the National Assembly. But you saw how it felt. You saw how it felt. But Justice, Justice, I think that let's, you know, let's stay within the ambience of the conversation. I mean, let's stay within the poor view of this conversation. So we don't, I understand that women rights need to be understood. But we're talking about children here. We're talking about the female child. And so according to the constitution, a child is a child, the age would be from, you know, zero up until 18. That's what we're talking about. So the consents are, have we been able to meet the basic needs of our children, especially, you know, the female child? Since we're talking about the rights, you know, of the female, right? And so we're saying as a country and as a state, have we been able to meet the basic needs? Whether the constitution already enshrines that. The constitution talks about it. By the virtue of the fact that they are humans, they are entitled to all of this. And also looking at, for some of the state that has domesticated, you know, the act and then it has become a law, especially legal state. They're just basic needs, right? To live quality, live education and what have you. So have we been able to meet the basic needs of this, you know, the girl child that? Well, you asked, answering your question, you asked this question, but you also part of the society. You and I know that the answer to this question is, Captain, no, when you go outside there, now you see so many children hocking on the street. Is this supposed to be so? What is their right of compulsory education? What is their right of housing and all that? There are so many children outside there that are homeless and all the rights. And by virtue of the rights child law, if every child is entitled for you, for that is right. Today, what is happening today? Purpose means when there is any problem, especially in the world, or between a man and a woman, it is the children that suffer this. There are so many children today that even their parents, especially their father, doesn't care about them. Oh, it seems that since we have lost him, we have the network, play the fast one on him. Mercy, these are very important issues. I mean, I was just, you know, having a communication with someone, you know, I was shocked to hear a conversation with between my colleagues and listeners on radio and River State. When I worked there, River State about inheritance, female inheritance. I'm glad the guests talked about it. Women in most parts of River State are not allowed to partake of their parents' wealth in terms of inheritance. And I was shocked to hear most of the male callers attacked the presenters of that program over this issue of women should inherit a parent's wealth. It just didn't make sense. You know, I mean, so it's glad to know this year in River State, the River State governor passed three bills and in effect ended, you know, this culture and practice of women not partaking of their parents' inheritance. It just does not make sense. Very commendable. We have to go. Very commendable, you know, of the government. But in all of this, unfortunately, we lost connection with our guests. It would be important that we pay attention. I think that we always talk about the fact that we have too many laws in this country. We have lofty policies. Imagine that we implement half of it. It would be a better place. If we implement, you know, respect the Child Rights Act as it were, hasn't been domesticated in some of, you know, the states and Nigeria. Then we won't be talking about the consent of a girl child. Now we're paying emphasis on the girl child because we're not doing the needful. But that's the much we can take at this point in time. Thank you so much for being part of the breakfast. Please follow us on social media. We are across all the platforms you know. Plus TV Africa. Just type that in the search box and hit the follow button. Plus TV Africa. My name is Kofi Bartels. We return tomorrow. Thanks for joining us. And I am messy. It will pull to have a fantastic day.