 2020 has brought a bunch of unexpected developments, a global pandemic, the biggest uprising against racism since the 1960s and rapidly increasing tensions between the world's two major superpowers. But an event last night was even less likely to have appeared on anyone's 2020 bingo. Grammy and Brit award-winning artist Dua Lipa, who made Spotify's fourth most-streamed album of all time, tweeted this to her 5.6 million followers on Twitter. So it says, Autoconus, objective of an inhabitant of a place indigenous rather than descended from migrants or colonists. Most people would have read this. Not really, you know, what is going on here. Also, you're looking at that map. What is going on here? A little bit of research. It's Greater Albania. That is what she is referring to. So Greater Albania is an irredentist concept. It's the idea that Albania should grow to include or expand to include all areas with a majority ethnic Albanian population or which historically had a majority ethnic Albanian population. And we can get up a map now of what that would look like. So these would be the borders of Greater Albania. And you can see why it would be controversial, because it would not just include Albania, but also parts of Macedonia, parts of Greece, Kosovo, parts of Serbia and parts of Montenegro. So it's an ethnic nationalist concept. Ash, I'll go to you first. Dua Lipa and Greater Albania. I mean, I kind of rate it because her, I mean, obviously I don't rate the concept of Greater Albania, but her managers will be fucking screaming at her. They'll be like, why? Why did you tweak this? You know, they probably have an audience, you know, they probably sell records in Greece and Macedonia and in these other countries. So for her to this tweet that out to her 5.6 million followers was presumably controversial. Your thoughts. I mean, look, call me old fashioned, but I'm not really into ethno states. That's just my position as a leftist. I don't think ethno states are ever progressive, but I have to do a Lloyd Russell Moyle non-apology after taking about quite a controversial opinion. Catch me next week. But no, they're not progressive. And I think what this speaks to is two things. One is the way in which historical wounds are carried down through the generations. So when you have a people, which has been fragmented across different national borders because of conflicts, treaties, the movement of history, right? There's often a sense that this is a collective trauma because often that that process has been very traumatic. And sometimes that that collective trauma can be wielded for really reactionary and horrible ends. So for instance, after the treaty of Trianon in which Hungary was carved up after World War One, that's been this kind of nurtured wound, which is also then had an impact on nationalism, even antisemitism, xenophobia and racism. It's this idea of we are once strong proud people tied to this land were butchered, right? We were dismembered. When it comes to the existence of a greater Albania, as far as I can tell, the only time in which it has really existed in history was under Nazi occupation during World War Two. So it's something which has, I think, particularly horrible origins, even if Dua Lipa, having been shaped by her parents' experiences as Kosovo refugees, a really horrible impact of trauma, displacement and violence, might have legitimate reasons to feel, you know, quite assertive in her Albanian identity. The map that you see on the flag, when you see an abstracted map like that, you don't really know what kind of landmass it covers. And the first time I saw that flag was when a football match had to be stopped because a drone had flown in with the Greater Albanian flag. And I didn't realise just how much landmass that includes, because it doesn't just include Kosovo, but also includes bits of Northern Macedonia and Greece, you know, huge areas of land in which you do have diverse populations. Now, I believe in, you know, the protected right of people to self-determination. That's not the same thing as their right to forming an ethno-state regardless of the wishes of the other people who live there. And I actually think, you know, multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy is a value in itself. So, yeah, Dua Lipa, bit of a curveball, bit weird. Not that into it, not into ethno-states. Aaron, what do you make? I mean, to be honest, it seems like a niche, it seems like a surprising thing to tweet for the content, you know, as a British pop star, but it's not a rare opinion. So, I find a poll from 2010 conducted by Gallup in cooperation with the European Fund for the Balkans. I'm not sure who the European Fund for the Balkans are, but Gallup obviously a highly rated polling firm. 62% of respondents in Albania, 81% in Kosovo and 51.9% of respondents in Macedonia supported the formation of a greater Albania. What do you make of this tweet? Well, I think before we go any further, we need to find out what Rita Ora thinks. Secondly, you know, when you said, what's that? I mean, it's quite funny, the tweet, what does the word mean? What is this land mass? What is that national insignia? Who are these two guys? None of it is remotely understandable to the average person. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. You're basically asking for Yugoslav civil war mark, too. That's kind of crazy. And look, there's a broader context here, which is about, for instance, Kosovo. There's a good argument that Kosovo and Albania could be one country and so on. But irredentism, which is the idea that there is a part of the nation which has yet to be turned back to the kind of, you know, redeem, so to speak, is obviously a very old concept. You get it in Italy before the First World War. I think that's actually where it comes from. So parts of Dalmatia, for instance, which is Monday Croatia, were really parts of that essentially Italian. Now this concept can go back, you know, very far. We could talk about Greek irredentism would probably have most of northern Turkey, right? Or, you know, Calais, we want Calais back. You know, you could go back, you know, Korean irredentism, you might want bits of Manchuria. Indian irredentism, you're clearly, you might ask for a reunification of the Mario Empire. So you go all the way to, I'm gonna say the modern day Indian economy does not open Bangladesh. But yeah, you know, you go from Herat to Bangladesh, basically, right? So there are dozens of countries which have a very feasible historically, you know, explicable irredentism. But actually, right, I think what's really interesting about the case here of Albania is historically it's been a very marginalised unique country in Europe. You know, I think historically it's maybe the only along with Bosnia. They're very rare in being majority Muslim countries in Europe. And that sort of the amalgam of Yugoslavia brought together countries which were formerly from, you know, Christian, from the Austro-Hapsburg Empire, with these other countries which historically were part of the Ottoman Empire. And so there's a civilisational tension there almost, which makes it a bit different from, say, Italian irredentism. But I think, you know, it is interesting that kind of millennial pop superstar is talking about ethno-nationalism. And I do think it's an important point to talk about that a lot of the kind of identity politics when we talk about people coming from the global south, you know, it can, I don't think it often does, but it can merge into forms of ethno-nationalism, even the idea around cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is bad. I'm not saying it's a good thing. But, you know, the idea that culture is a fixed thing which is immutable, that only certain people can perform in certain places, you know, for me personally, I don't see a huge jump between that and ethno-nationalism, or at least, you know, not recognizing immediately that ethno-nationalism is quite a bad thing. And by extension of that, you know, we see often with discussions around Israel. People say, well, Israel's got the right self-determination. You know, if we're being serious about, you know, international protocol, settlers, Jewish settlers have been there en masse since at least the early 20th century. You can make a pretty solid argument about that. But then it becomes this kind of id-pole thing of historical repression, ergo means an ethno-state, which right now is quite rare, you know. But I think it's becoming quite a salient thing amongst younger people. It's kind of like this thing. That's quite worrying. You know, we need to have political identities forged on values and togetherness and meaning rather than the colour of your skin or the language that your parents might speak. And it's strange to me because Dua Lipra is, for me, again, I might be wrong, she's British. She's a British Albanian. And so if you're asking for an ethno-state, be careful because then you're not going to last here very long. I think it is in many ways actually expressing some quite important political conversations we've got to have on earth. Ash, do you see a straight line between cultural appropriation or concerns about cultural appropriation and ethnic nationalism? No, not necessarily. I don't necessarily see that link. But what I do think is true and I was wondering if you'd agree with this, Aaron, is that sometimes when you have people who live in the diaspora and they're, you know, that one stage removed from their heritage culture than their parents, maybe two steps removed, you do find sometimes people of our generation, our age group and younger going for really reactionary ideologies as a way of feeling closer to a culture, a place, a way of being that they're fundamentally really, really distant from. I remember when I was at school, for instance, there was a girl in my class who, you know, she had Hindutva everything. Like, you know, there's like clear big art folders that you had to take in. It was like Hindutva branding, like, and, you know, she had that kind of, you know, very funny mix of like, you know, bourgeois, Indian, Hindutva, but also kind of like entrepreneurial go get a spirit like kind of mainlining Reaganism. She's a really funny girl. But it's that kind of looking for a meaning and a history which has very contemporary, you know, potentially very violent and very oppressive consequences. But because you're that one step distance from it, you, you're a little bit, I don't want to be patronizing to anyone, but you're a bit ignorant, you're a bit ignorant of its full consequences. Your parents and your grandparents are the ones you have to live with the nuance. They're the ones who have to live with the facts that nations are diverse. And you might feel really strongly about an ethno state, but actually your neighbour is Serbian and they're ill and you take them there shopping every week and you don't actually want to see them kicked out, right? We all have to exist in the grey area where there aren't these hard and fast rules. But when you're that generation removed, you can look back and turn things up to high contrast. I'm not sure if I'm expressing it well, but do you know what I mean? It's a generational thing. I think it's a really important point you're making. Something Ash and I share that sadly you don't have with us, Michael, is that we have descendants of people who weren't from here. And so for people in Britain in the 21st century, it's about forging a meaningful identity that allows us to be happy and live well. And I think that's a really important conversation again for the left to have. And I think often there's this bizarre, vacuous, insipid thing about, oh, Englishness or Britishness. I'm not into that. I don't like it. But clearly, you know, we live in this political entity, which is actually incredibly mixed and diverse. And I wonder what kinds of togetherness we can forge in the 21st century. To me, that's a more appealing political project than, you know, some far away ethno state that actually I think if anything, appealing to that is a reflection of alienation, right? I think that by necessity, appealing to some abstract ethno state from a place you're not even living in, I think reflects a feeling of unease at the same time in the place that you are living in. And so I think for people of mixed heritage, I think for people whose parents are from other places, I can understand why that's appealing, the Hindutva stuff and so on. But I don't think it's going to help anyone. I don't think it's a particularly nice way to live. I don't think you'll be particularly happy doing it generally. But I do think there's a project there for people on the left to talk about coming together and forms of collectivity in the here and now, which aren't reflection of alienation, but actually the opposite.