 Hey, we're back. We're live on Jay Fidel. This is Stink Tech, Hawaii, and we're talking about global connections now at the one o'clock block with Carlos Suarez of HPU and a university in Mexico, both. And we're talking about what he likes a lot, international relations, international viewpoint. And so we're entitling this show, Foreign Reaction to Trump Meltdown. I guess there's two parts to that. One is what happened in the Capitol, the insurgency. And the other is Trump himself is melting down. I think he started melting down before the insurgency. But you get two parts. When you say Trump meltdown, you get two parts. Let's talk about both of them and see if people overseas make that distinction. Yeah, no, sure. And thank you again, it's always a pleasure to reconnect and share some insights. As you know, I've been many years, these past few years in Mexico, long connected with Hawaii, of course, 20 years there. But my perspective is also informed by that and a lot of travel that I do, I don't pretend to know the entire world, but I certainly, I have a lot of time explaining it to the world since I teach foreign students all the time and travel and lecture regularly. And of course, we're looking at, you know, these events in the past week have just been astonishing around the world, obviously, not just in the US, but the world is watching. And indeed, the events were greeted by, you know, different world leaders with a mixture of condemnations, a lot of shock and outright disbelief that a country long relied upon for global leadership, for democratic ideals. I mean, we can't emphasize that enough. The United States has a long, long history as being leader of the world, being, you know, a place that other countries look to for democratic ideals, the institutions, the norms and everything. And all of this has now descended into unprecedented political chaos. And so you can imagine the disbelief. Many of the leaders, again, a couple of quick quotes we saw right at the outset. I'm talking here, you know, the incident last Wednesday, the attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters. Prime Minister Boris Johnson called it disgraceful. Prime Minister, I'm sorry, the French president Macron tweeting that, you know, very defiantly that we believe in democracy having to reaffirm that the German foreign minister quoted in a tweet, the enemies of democracy will be happy to see these incredible pictures from Washington and, quote, the disdain for democratic institutions is devastating. And, you know, here, these are allies that have been, you know, strong, you know, friends of the U.S. and supporters. And today they are looking with quite a bit of alarm. Now, of course, in other parts of the world, we've seen different reactions as well. The Iranians, of course, one of the major adversaries for the U.S., their president, Hassan Rouhani, he made a statement in which he said the chaos unleashed in the Capitol exposed the fragility and vulnerability of Western democracy. Now, in past times we would kind of laugh that off. But the fact is, you know, we are seeing a very fragile political system. We are seeing clearly a lot of challenges to, you know, democratic liberal democracy, let's say. Now, in Europe in particular, there's been a rise of populist leaders too. And we'll come back to talk about those. But keeping right now the focus on just, you know, what this world reaction has been, it's quite astonishing. You've even got situations where now some countries, you know, places like Turkey or Bulgaria or even Saudi Arabia are issuing warnings to their citizens who are in the country or particularly in Washington, D.C., to, you know, obviously, stay home, be careful. And it's just, it's remarkable. Again, we have to appreciate that the world is watching. And in the midst of this, the United States, we've talked in different times how we've seen that an erosion of the U.S. influence and power. And part of it is a function of the rise of the rest, the rise of China, the rise of other, you know, emerging powers. But clearly part of it is that the United States, even more now, by looking inward, is now going through this tremendous, you know, political crisis. So it is hemorrhaging. It is hemorrhaging influence. It is hemorrhaging soft power, which has been an integral part of our foreign policy. As we continue our dialogue, I want to talk more about what are the implications for foreign policy. And I have some thoughts on that. But right now, let me maybe just turn to you. Again, we've got understandably a lot of shock and dismay around the world, but at the same time, affirming that, you know, the importance of democratic institutions. But I would say it's fair to say many are also seeing Trump behind this. In other words, it's like not a surprise. And in many ways, it's fueled by a lot of the, let's say, the style of leadership or lack of leadership from Donald Trump, aggressive, et cetera. I suppose the, you know, the knee-jerk reaction is to, for somebody overseas, the further away, the more knee-jerk it would be to say, ah, the whole country screwed up. Democracy as a concept, like in Iran, the whole thing screwed up. Rather than to get into the nuance of exactly, you know, what did Trump do as president? How, you know, how this is part of his, you know, continuing failure? And whether, and to what extent it was intentional, what happened? Or just Lucy Goose that we can talk about that. And then, of course, the people, the 74 million people, I think that probably affects their thinking more than anything else, because it is half the country feels that way. So you judge, you judge America by that electorate. You judge America by what that electorate did in the Capitol. And you can write off the whole country without ever getting to Trump. Trump is just part of the phenomenon of the failure of the American democracy. Or do they make a distinction? I'm really curious if you see that, you know, that within the articles you've read and the people you've talked to. You know, again, we have to always be careful. Who are we talking about? Because on one hand, foreign elites, obviously, they've got a certain view. And when I talked about this idea of the US, you know, leadership and liberal democracy, that those are ideas felt by, you know, elites, people who understand the other history, who, who deal with politics and government, et cetera. Now, with bearing views, but I want to say at the end of the day, like say the average person on the street on me, I mean, they're not thinking about the nuances of the electoral college or Trump or even the Republican Party. Instead, what they see, on one hand, Trump in some ways, he exemplifies or almost like the stereotype of the American, the bully, the sort of, you know, very overly confident and over and yet to an extreme. And so almost a stereotype that becomes a caricature, but it is there. And, you know, some of it is evident. I think, for the most part, my gut feeling is that most people are dismayed and quite shocked at what they are seeing, because the US, there's a lot of criticism for it for the policies the US has abroad towards different places maybe. But at the end of the day, it is more, I think the dismay is more what's happening domestically in the US. And in other words, people are watching this and saying, wait a minute, this is a country that, you know, it's gone through obviously a lot of struggle and challenges. But in the end, it's always been a source of inspiration, a story of, you know, struggle for rights and liberties and freedoms. And today, it is by far, the most politically dysfunctional and divided of all the world's advanced democracies. I mean, compared to Europe, compared to, you know, other advanced democracies, whether Australia or Japan, the US is at the bottom in terms of functioning. Let me offer a thought that you make me think of. And that's this. I mean, if I'm in Iran, I'm really happy about the failure of American democracy. I want to see the divisiveness. I want to see the, you know, dysfunction. If I'm Vladimir Putin, I've probably been dancing a jig for the past week. He's very happy. And who knows whether he's had some involvement, either by talking to Trump, counseling with Trump or sending social media that, you know, creates the divisiveness. I would not be at all surprised. And when we look further at this, we find out that Putin was sending, you know, sending messages to excite people and incite people just like Trump. But what I get is there's two camps out there. One is the camp that would be really happy, that is really happy to see us, you know, lose our mojo, which we've lost, and become completely dysfunctional. And the other is the camp of people, and here's what I want to ask you about, you know, who see not, not US is not only a statement of moral vision, a statement of world ethical moral leadership, post war, liberal order, you know, world order, but they also see the US as their, as the protector of those things, as the protector of their country, treaty or no treaty. If they get in trouble, if they're attacked, if they need help, even by a function of extreme weather, you know, who knows what kind of calamity, the US is there and the US will help them. But now, after this, it's very hard to believe that. It's very hard to believe that the US is your protector, that it cares about you, that it will intercede, intervene, and help you out in times of crisis. If I were in one of those countries that had, you know, embraced that sort of thinking before, now not a chance. What do you think? You know, I mean, yeah, I think it's going to vary in every place. You've described on one hand, you know, a situation where obviously for many years, the United States was looked upon and it had alliances and has alliances, I should say, that, you know, that were an important part of this international system, we might call the liberal international order in place the last 75, 80 years. But today, many of those alliances, whether it's with Europe, whether it's with even neighbors to the south, even, you know, other parts of Asia, that have held for generations, many of them are frayed. They're frayed now to the breaking point under Trump. As we know, again, the story of, as soon as he came to office four years ago, exiting the Paris Climate Accord, the Iran nuclear deal, quitting the World Health Organization during the pandemic. So all of that has simply added to it. Now, Biden can come in and reverse a lot of those, but the credibility question and maybe the ability of the US to gain, you know, support for some of its policies is going to be a real challenge. And I think here's one of the key things that I'm beginning to realize more than ever. I'm a scholar and a teacher of international affairs, of course. And, you know, what is the role of the US in the world? What is its policy, its strategy? These are, you know, the focus to the outside world. But more and more, that foreign policy, whether it be, you know, what it is or how we define it, or whether people take it seriously, is going to be dependent on our domestic policy and more than ever, I guess that's what I want to say. And in the end, domestic policy is going to have become a more critical element. And what do I mean by that? Well, we've got to get our house in order and the world is going to be watching unless the US addresses a lot of these challenges of inequality or even the pandemic, which we've essentially been seeing the failure in dealing with compared to other places. Once we get beyond that, the world is going to need to see that the US house is in order before it can be taken seriously again in the international arena. That's, again, a quick thought I have at the moment. We should talk about China too, Carlos. You know, we've been focusing on Europe and maybe the Middle East or Africa. But China is, that's a different kettle of fish somehow. Xi Jinping has said that in one of the five years time, he wants to exceed the American economy. And I believe he had a good chance before this happened, but he has a better chance now simply because, as you say, domestically, we have more problems and COVID is not over. And the variant COVID virus is not over. And we're having trouble distributing the drugs and the country is demonstrating its lack of confidence in so many things. National policy is a train wreck. And if I were Xi Jinping, sort of like Putin, I would say, well, I'd be able to exceed their economy in no time at all. They're a failure. And this is even more important. I think he has, not only in China, but in other nations around China, the burden of showing, the ongoing burden of showing that the Chinese form of government is better than the American democracy, that the Chinese form of government can make a better economy. It can offer rights, although there's issues about human rights and all that. But he can show that life is better under China's system than it is under the U.S. And he's always got the burden of showing that it's better than the U.S. Now, his burden is reduced because, I mean, anybody looking at those television shots, anybody seeing Trump's machinations and the machinations in Congress, they are machinations in Congress, will say, gee, I thought democracy was better than this. This is a failed system of government. I really, I'm more impressed with the Chinese model. And that plays right into Xi Jinping's hands, don't you think? Well, no, absolutely. And of course, we're speaking of a different world today in 2021 now than, let's say, 2000 or even the late 90s, China was coming onto the scene. And what I was thinking about is you described that I've had opportunities to have many students from China over the years in Hawaii in particular. And the generation that is coming now out of China, or let me rephrase that, those who have come and studied abroad, particularly in the U.S., and now gone back to China, they interestingly, they bring an understanding of American society and culture. And it's that mix, okay, they're parts that are good and you like, but there are other parts that are more problematic. And when we see race, riots, protest movements, when we see obviously even the division today, and the inability of the government to coordinate something like this pandemic response. I think increasingly what you say, what I want to get at is that you have a large, larger growing number of Chinese who have seen the world, who've seen the U.S., how they come back and they understand the limitations of weaknesses. Now they have criticisms and issues maybe with their own government, but they've got a different socialization. They're not there to push democracy in the way that maybe we think of in the West. So yeah, I think it's going to be increasingly the case that, of course, now that the U.S. has had this blemish and this is not going to go away easily in for years, it's always going to be looked at well, you've got democracy, but guess what democracy is messy and ugly and it doesn't deliver in the same way. As we speak now, China is already ahead of much of the world in economic recovery. They're moving a lot quicker. So they've got COVID recovery. Exactly, they've got a certain dynamism going now. Hopefully in the next six months, nine months, we can begin to see the U.S. and other parts beginning to recover as well, but no, I think this incident, this closing of the Trump presidency, I mean, just bringing closure is one thing, but the drama that played out, the events this past week, the siege on the Capitol, the insurrection, the impeachment, it really does leave a sour taste with many. The U.S. is looking blemished and it's not going to be easy to turn that around. Again, even speaking to the Chinese, just this past a week, you had the Chinese embassy advising their nationals to exercise caution before going into public places. I mean, normally you would expect that the U.S. issuing warnings to its residents in Turkey or in Saudi Arabia. Now we've got these others. And talk about China, of course, it has this authoritarian model. It's an alternative. We've, of course, always had this dialogue about its growing influence in particularly Africa and other parts of Central Asia, even Latin America. Let me mention very quickly that, you know, yes, we're spanning the globe and I want to make sure not to mention, forget to mention Latin America, because this is, again, a region of the world that's often neglected by the U.S. It's not on the radar, given all the other geopolitics, but it is so important. The Mexico trade and, you know, and let's say migration and labor market integration is so vital. And the world, including Latin America, is now looking at the U.S. and saying, wait a minute, you criticize us for our human rights. You criticize us for our democracy or even Venezuela. The U.S. credibility in pushing for political changes in an authoritarian system like Venezuela today are going to hold a lot less credibility as well. So again, it's hard to see any real positive coming right away. And yes, it'll be good to see Biden as a breath of fresh air trying to rebuild these problems. But boy, he's stepping into a- Yeah, I want to talk about that. You know, we, everybody knows, including all these countries, they know that following the insurrection, the same day within hours, you had pretty much the entire Republican establishment in Congress voting to overturn the election, which was exactly on Trump's message and demand. And then more recently, you know, the vote against impeachment was 197 against it yesterday. And the vote on the 25th Amendment did not pass in the House. And the Senate, whatever the machinations are, not clear to me, we will find out next week what the machinations are in the Senate. They didn't want to deal with it. McConnell didn't want to deal with it. And the Republicans are likely to vote against removing Trump from office. And then, of course, you have the 74 million people. Biden is not going to have an easy time. And if I'm, you know, overseas watching this, I don't think that'll be lost on me. The Biden- Trump was a powerful president, but Biden is the kind of guy who's more modest. And he's going to play it by the book, by the law. And he's going to run into the Republicans at every turn. And he's not going to be able to get it done. Now, even if they don't know that now, we know that, even if they don't know that now, in a few weeks' time, when Biden tries to get his appointments confirmed in the Senate, when Biden tries to put his COVID package through for $1,400 payments he wants now, which 14 and six, by the way, is 2,000, you get. It all adds up to 2,000. There's something really musical about that. And, you know, and all the opposition he's going to get and all the things he wants to do, then people overseas are going to say, well, nice guy, but nice guys don't win ball games or build railroads. Don't you think? You know, it's hard to say. I'm just thinking out loud right now. My gut feeling is that most of the world is going to be breathing a sigh of relief when they see the transition, the new president, you know, a more decent, modest man, not as, let's say, obstreperous and antagonistic. But again, it depends on who we're talking about. Those who, let's say, look to public policy, foreign policy, yeah, they're going to see the nuances and maybe realize that. But on another level, it's interesting. We talk a lot about the chaos, and it's most certainly there. The U.S. is in a deep crisis. But this last election, curiously, was also an affirmation of democracy, the largest outcome, it's not outcome, I'm sorry, the largest voter participation level, and the largest even margin of difference between the president. Anyway, and it worked, although again, as dysfunctional as it is, I'm not pretending to say this is how it should go every time, but that's the system we've had and good luck changing it. You know, a final thought, I didn't want to leave this out. It was the idea that with the departure of Trump now coming, you have a situation in some places where many populist leaders, we've often talked about them. It could be the Mexican president and Brazil, the Hungarian leader, the Polish populist movements in France and Italy that remain very strong. And interestingly, his departure in some ways is, I guess you could say almost a crisis for the populist leaders because, you know, many of them have looked to him with, you know, I guess a lot of support. And so today, now that with Trump leaving, on one hand, it makes it harder for some of those leaders, but it remains to be seen because the divisions in the US are also evident in some of European countries, a lot of the polarization as well. But hopefully, the Europeans were scared enough by what they saw that they're going to try to, you know, mitigate or avoid similar violence. What about what about those what about those leaders? You know, we're looking away now, they're looking elsewhere and not commenting a whole lot. They don't have a lot to say. But they are also concerned because suddenly now this populism that has now, you know, burst into violence is not an easy, let's say, not an attractive option for them. And it's going to put fear into the others that are not part of that populist wing. You know, I hadn't thought of this before, but, you know, you have the monkey see monkey do phenomenon. And so those those populist leaders see what's going on in the US and they do the dog whistle routine over there. They have their followers, you know, kill somebody, beat somebody up, knock off a public institution of some kind, in order to enhance, you know, and and conglomerate their own power. And I suggest to you that that's we will see that because it seems to be permitted these days. Yeah. No, I think among mainstream politicians, there's still a lot of anxiety about this. You know, what is the popular? Well, it's anti-elitism. It's anti-government. These are political movements that have gained and through social media disinformation, you know, selling, you know, just the conspiracies. These are not unique to the US, believe me. Europe has its fair share as well, Mexico and other parts of South America. And so there is anxiety all around because of this. We've seen what it can do, what lies and misinformation can do the power of social media because understanding Trump, we must understand the role of Twitter and the role of Fox News. I mean, he would not be president without those two. And so it's quite interesting. Yeah. Well, you know, I was thinking also that you're talking about voting and voting is, I think what voting was like invented in this country. You know, we've had voting of sometimes better, sometimes worse, but from the beginning that our whole thing is transfer of power. Washington didn't want to be king. And every four years or eight, we transfer power and voting is the central part of that. And I'm not a historian on this point, but it seems to me that we invented voting on a large scale and other countries took our signal for it. And they also adopted voting, you know, popular voting among large groups of popular, some countries were ahead of us. Some countries allowed women to vote long before we did. Some countries did not exclude, you know, racial groups. But here we are with a theoretical, you know, a theoretical fair vote kind of notion in the law. But we didn't do that. We did not do that. Now, you said, and of course, it's true that that Biden won the election. And that's a confirmation of our democracy, because it was against all odds. But the Republicans around the country or the Trumpers around the country were suppressing votes, suppressing black votes, gerrymandering, gerrymandering. They were they were they wrecked the post office, the collection of ballots, the counting of ballots, the intimidation of ballot count. I mean, you know, you could make a list as long as your arm of all the things they did to screw up the vote in every which way. You know, fraud, calls of fraud, statements that the system is ridden with fraud. This does not help America. But it doesn't help voting either. And I'm thinking that people overseas, you know, on the theme of our show, we're going to see these huge and continued attacks on the voting system. Yes, they may be impressed that we somehow missed the bullet, you know, that we somehow got through it. And we had a democratic result. But they're also going to say, Hmm, voting in the US is really problematic. And it ain't like it used to be. What do you think about that? Yeah. And just more generally, that democracy, democracy, this idea that we elect our leaders and we participate in voting as integral, essential democracy has been wounded and damaged and eroded. And both on one hand, Trump, and let me see, he reflects a growing trend that he's not unique. A lot of these populist leaders, they come to power through elections, through systems. And then once in office, there's a there's like a gamebook that they all use, they begin to erode the systems, the norms, they attack the media, the press, they, you know, they begin to control the narrative in a way. And of course, with Trump taking into an extreme a lie, basically feeding misinformation, the election happens. And what does he do? He persists with the lie that it was all fraudulent. There is no case for that. The US had a very clean election, relatively speaking, it went, it was messy. Yes. And it was close in a few places. Yes. But I think what's astonishing is, you know, how do we get beyond this, this now normal of pushing the lie? You know, it has to be called on. And the media has such a vital role here. It's been polarized itself. And people obviously, you know, how do we explain that percentage of population that are still behind the president, even at this moment? It is, I think, where do they get their information? What shapes their views? Yeah. So you have on the one side, you know, a huge number of people who are still behind him. And on the other side, you have a huge number of people who no longer have confidence in the government. You know, and I wish I could say that there's an outpouring of patriotism out there. I don't see that. I think an outpouring of fear, more likely. But now I have to ask you my last question, which is a hard one. Okay. Okay. We know in this country that if it's not 74 million, it'll be many millions anyway, who will stick with him, who will continue to see him as a cult figure. He'll find a way to reach them on newly invented social media. He'll find a way to get in the press. They will stick with him. And he will be a problem going forward. I don't know if he'll be able to run for office again, but he's going to be a godfly on Biden from day one. Okay. That's not my question now. My question is now there are people overseas who he has relationships. You know, like Putin, maybe in a left-handed way, with some of the dictators in South America, for example, he has relationships, good, bad, or otherwise. How are they going to see him going forward? We see him. A lot of people in this country see him as without power, fallen from grace, no longer relevant. But will he be able to maintain his connections and his, you know, I want to say popularity, but his prowess, his his power, individual, personal power with other countries. Or are they also going to see him as fallen from grace, no longer relevant, turn their backs on him? Does he have a chance with them? You know, my inclination, and just again quickly thinking out loud, is that increasingly we're probably going to see more and more people jumping ship. Now, those who see opportunities for, you know, some deal, yeah, it'll be there. But think of it for a moment. And I can't pretend to know all the ins and out of his, you know, financial, you know, Trump organization. But part of me, if we're to believe some of what the research coming out of the, I think it was the New York Times reported to his finances, he's going to have a lot of debts coming forward. He's going to need to generate cash. So he's either going to be a very quick entrepreneur and figure out how that's going to happen. I don't pretend to know how that is. But I can't help but think that both, as we see him fading down right now this last week, his voice has been shut off. His Twitter account is gone. He's quickly fading. And I think the real interesting puzzle is more, what's going to happen to the Republican Party? Are they going to be stuck, you know, with him there, you know, as an anchor holding them down? Today we have only a small, small number of principled Republicans who have said, wait a minute, he went too far and who would be willing to impeach him. But could that number change quickly? I mean, McConnell has sent these interesting messes, you know, mixed signals in the last couple of days. What if it suddenly creates a momentum where, yes, not just 17, but maybe, you know, 26 or 32 Republicans decide to impeach him after, if that can even happen, there's a whole puzzle about that. But no, part of me is inclined to think, and maybe as opposed to I want that to happen, that he's going to quickly lose this ability that he had because he's no longer going to have the position. He's going to, you know, he's burned a lot of bridges and even some of his closest allies are walking away from him now. So I'm, I would not be surprised if we see a dynamic that suddenly changes quickly and his credibility goes down. He doesn't have the voice. I may be wrong. I mean, maybe he resurfaces and comes out of the ashes and, you know, so I think he's a force to be reckoned with in my sense real quickly that the international perspective overall is going to be a cynical one. This guy is going to come back. He's going to resurface. He's not going away. And, you know, so I think that there's a strong belief in many parts that this is not going to be easy to just somehow sweep it under the rug and move on. That may be so everywhere. I mean, that may be so in this country too. Yeah, they may, well, overseas they may see him as coming back. And they, for that reason, not write him off just yet. But I want to offer one thought and see what you say. You know, we're bound for more violence here. There's likely to be some violence in the next few days, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, maybe, and Wednesday, the inauguration. There's two ways that can go. One way is it can be successful violence. I mean, on the Trump side of it, these people can go and burn things and destroy things and get into a shooting war with the National Guard and the Army. Essentially, you know, create a new level, a higher level of chaos. That's one possibility. Another possibility is that it's a fizzle. It doesn't go anywhere. People don't want to come out. They don't want to get shot. They're tired of this already. Well, that the National Guard is so imposing that they, you know, that they just don't want to play with the National Guard. In which case it's a fizzle. And Trump looks weak. So in one case, he looks strong. In the other case, he looks weak. From a global perspective, seems to me that he can't win. If he looks strong, it's just a repetition of what happened last week. It makes him look worse and more disrespectful of law and order. If he's weak, well, that's its own reward. It means he's lost his mojo and people aren't following him anymore. Even his own sworn followers are not following him. What do you think? Would one be better than the other? Which one would Trump want to see? Does it matter? Does he lose in either case? Or maybe does he win in either case? Well, I think he loses in both cases. I don't see him really coming out ahead. I obviously want to hope that we're not going to see the worst, but we need to be prepared for that because there is a lot of pent-up anger and frustration. And as we're learning little dribbles of information, it looks like there was a pretty, you know, probably more carefully planned and orchestrated a plan to attack the capital. It wasn't just a whim. And I don't know to what extent the threat that was put, I'm sorry, the threat assessment by the FBI and 50 capitals, I mean, they wouldn't announce that unless there was credible evidence. So it's very real. I want to hope that it doesn't play out in tremendous death and violence. But the world is watching. And unfortunately, I think until we see this play out and begin to get contained, it's going to continue to erode our prestige and image in the world, no doubt. So things could go either way. We're still in the middle of this crisis. We're far from over. And even when we do get it managed, it's going to be quite some time to rebuild the trust, the credibility, the, you know, the image. I would finish the final thought is that I think more than ever, domestic policy for the US is going to have a greater impact on our relationship to the world and how the world sees us. So they're watching us and how we come out of this and whether there's a healing process or what happens to these groups, you know, that are on the extreme, you know, we say it's almost a divided in half. But is it really or are those fanatical supporters really a fringe 5, 10% that need to be nudged out and marginalized more? And in the end, what's going to happen to the Republican party? Are they going to move forward to try to reclaim it? Or is Trump going to hold them, you know, by the neck as he has it right now? I think that's the real challenge, I think. Yeah, no one knows. But we'll know more in a couple of weeks, Carlos. We have to continue this conversation. I leave you with this one thought that I have that I've had for the time of our show today. How it's rhetorical. How could one man, one single human being have created so much damage not only to this country, but to the world? It's quite remarkable. He'll go down in the history books. Nobody has ever been so destructive. Well, I can think of one other person, but it's really quite remarkable how much damage he's done. And he told us that we were going to be tired of so much winning. Well, he has lost the popular vote twice. He has lost the House for the Republicans in 2018. He has lost the Senate for the Republicans in 2020. He's been impeached twice. So if this is winning, well, it's a different sort of flipped version of it. I guess you could say he's winning bigly if first place goes to the loser. So he's the first place loser winning bigly. It's the big lie. That's what it is. Thank you, Carlos. Great to talk to you as always. Be well. Stay safe. I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Looking forward. Aloha. Take care.