 Good morning everybody. Good day. We are so delighted you joined us for another episode of the nonprofit show today. We have one of our superstars joining us again Dana Skirlock and Dana normally comes to us from New York, but today she works super excited because she's coming to us from Denver. And so we're going to call you a Western girl now. Okay, I'll take it. I'll take a new title. That's great. For this one day instead of director of recruitment for staffing fatigue, we're going to call you a Western girl. We're super excited. We have a very interesting conversation with Dana today that Dana, I don't think we've ever had. And that's specifically about staffing as it relates to the holidays and how you can work with, you know, this concept of bringing in extra help, temporary help. And so this is going to be a really interesting conversation for us to all have and to navigate. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd will be back with us tomorrow. Again, if you've missed any of our more than 700 episodes, hard to believe that I'm saying 700. Yeah, you can join back up with us in our archives on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. And you can also download the most recent episodes on podcasts. So wherever you like to queue up your content, find us there. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who allow us to have these amazing conversations like we're going to have with Dana Skirlock, Blum, Blum Rang American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, be generous. Fundraising Academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit thought leader and the nonprofit nerd. Okay, Dana Skirlock in the in the green room chatter. I confess to you two things. One, as much as I feel like I know you, you and I have never done a show together, which is super weird. That's just a confluence. Yeah. And then the second thing is that Kevin Pace, our executive producer has said that you rank as like his top guest. Oh, he's always like, oh, that's that woman on. Oh, that is too kind. Listen, I'll take an invite to come back any way I can. So thank you very much. Well, we love having you here. We love your commentary. Even though you and I have not worked together, I always watch the episodes that you're on and by the things you say. And so as director of recruitment for staffing boutique. You see a lot. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of industry wide, I think is the difference, you know, that people are working in individual organizations, but we get a sort of a window view into a lot of different organizations of different budget sizes of different missions. And so you get like a varied slice of kind of what's going on industry wide so that I think is the value of speaking with recruiters and and just kind of learning about what they're seeing. It's remarkable. I also feel like you're on the edge of things coming forward. You kind of start to see things sooner rather than than the rest of the population or the market. And so it's always fascinating to me. And today we really want to talk about labor being temporary temp labor during the holidays in the nonprofit sector. I think of this as like a retail issue. But you know, well, no, I mean, you're absolutely right that the retail industry, you could liken it to other industries as well where they're basically bringing in, you know, bulk staff for their busy period. So I think, you know, it is going to be something that's going to vary organization to organization is the holiday season a busy time for you if it's not let's say if you're, if you're perhaps like a college or university they technically fall under the nonprofit purview, they technically are nonprofit organizations, but they actually sometimes slow down around the holidays versus, you know, our busier. So that may not be a type of organization that is looking for holiday staff. But I know many like performing arts organizations particularly, you know, where the holiday season, they become more busy with gala's special performances, you know that are for the holiday season or like holiday themed. So there are a lot of organizations that actually do get busier during that time. So that's the first thing is if you're an organization assess when your busy time is so we're discussing the holiday time on this podcast but that could be, you know, a different it could be spring for some organizations and what have you. So, the issue is once you've identified now, we're in need of extra help, not forever but just to get over the hump of a particular, particularly difficult period. I think then you can approach an agency and find out how they could be able to assist you with additional staff. I think as it relates to your specific question about like what type of work, you can hand off to a temporary employee. Ultimately, the answer is any kind. You can. I mean we've done everything from interim executives like if you have a department that lacks leadership because of a departure of staff member what have you emergencies happen. People are unable to continue with their position. You know, we've done everything from that high level interim work through like, we just had a job last week helping somebody with a mailing, you know, sending somebody to go in for a day. And ultimately, the lead up and the prep work to get somebody to do something lower level like a mailing is the turnaround is going to be quicker than doing something like at an interim executive level. But, you know, for your listeners. Yes, it is possible at all of these different levels. I think we've just insinuated the planning time is what you have to think about like the higher level the temporary work you need the person to do, probably the more lead up planning and, and, and organization you'll need to, to add to it. Because I would say the biggest thing about hiring temporary employees is that the more you have a plan. You know, we're not managing the agency and on site with the client whether they're working remotely or on site but like, once the temp starts working with the organization. Our clients have to manage them you know we're not managing their day to day so they have to really have thought about how to ingratiate the temporary employee into what projects they need and so the more planning they've done and the more organization they've done on the more successful the temporary placement is and the probably to me the more bang you'll get for your buck you know the more work you'll get and, and strategic projects done that really help the overall staff get through the hump that's busy. You know, I love what you just said because I think a lot of times, you know we look around at a project and we get all fritzed out and we're like, we need help we need help we need help but then we're not stepping back and saying, okay, what does that help need to do. Yeah, yeah. Because I love how you reminded us hey, hello, they show up, they need to be managed so how are you going to articulate what the task management is. It's really, it's a wise thing to start off with. Sometimes we talk to clients and honestly they just are calling us in a panic, because they have this extra work. They don't know how they're going to get it done. And they want us to send them a temp that will just, you know, wave a magic wand and magically make the entire problem disappear. And that's sort of like the mythology that we have to kind of break through is that that's not really going to be possible like you may be at a stage that because you're so deep into projects. What we can do is help you find a temp, but that temp is going to need to do some of the like, lower level work that doesn't require a ton of training or attention and oversight, because you know you need them so close to the day that you're calling us with the need. So, you know, basically if people call us and say, hey, I need somebody to like basically run this event. And can they start on Monday. Those tend to be placements that aren't as successful not because anybody intended for them not to be, but simply because the infrastructure was not there to set the temp up for success with doing something that large. So, but I, you know, lead up time is very helpful. And by lead up time, I simply mean the organization has thought about how they're going to utilize the temp and make sure that they're trained to manage. I understand that that's not always possible. Some of these people are just calling us in a, in a genuine emergency, like, you know, and so they do need help quickly. And that's something that we also, that's part of our services that we're able to do things that are difficult very quickly. That as a full time staff member elsewhere, you probably don't have time to focus on finding a temporary employee, you've got your own job, you know, you don't need to spend time on hiring. That is part of why we even exist. But I do think that it's important, like on the organization's end to think about how to add the temporary employee into the, the day to day. And thinking about it in terms of like, you can't kind of just give them huge projects from day one and not any provide any training or oversight, which sometimes clients are looking for us to do is just, they want somebody to come in they don't have to bother them and they they're able to handle this entire huge project for them. You know, I love that you brought that up because I think realistically when I search my heart, I think I might be one of those people that, you know, I would get like, I'd be the one that calls you in the tizzy saying, Oh my God, we need to help, we need to help. And then when they, when they come in, you haven't really set the expectation about what it is you can do. You can't just pawn something, a big project off on somebody and expect them to be successful without any guidance. It's just not really. Yeah. Yes. I couldn't say I say that any better you're 100% right. Okay, so now let's talk about the, you know, the deets. And this is where we're all freaked out we need the help we're like, okay, yeah, get somebody in here. And what is the reality of the costs. I mean, I would say off the top of my head just from what you just said, one cost is internal management, and we probably aren't even thinking about that. Right. I mean, there's a cost to bear for that. But what are some of these actual cost considerations. Well, I would say the costs are going to increase exponentially with how experienced the temporary employee is and how high level. The project is that you're having them overtake. So for example, if you're going to hire somebody to just work on a mailing and do more of the like, just the manual actual work of it. It's going to be far less of a cost than if let's say you want to hire somebody to plan your entire gala, the more specialized the work, and also just to be able to entice someone to work for, let's say, three months versus a week. Sometimes, you know, I'll have to kind of talk to clients about like, you know, yes, this person wants a little bit higher hourly rate but that's also because you want them to stay for three months and they're thinking about, they have to make rent for the next three months. It's not just like a day long assignment that, yes, for extra money I'd be willing to work for that rate and kind of come in and do something to help out. And it doesn't pay that much but I'd be willing to do that for a short term is very different than I'm going to be relying on this essentially full in terms of hours full time position, I'm not going to work elsewhere for these three months. It needs to be a livable wage. So that's something I think about. And then again, like I said, it's going to depend on the complexity of the project. So, going through an agency is going to be more expensive than going, you know, then you hiring the person yourself. And that's always sort of the mantra that when we get on the phone with somebody, you know, if they're, they have a little sticker shock, you know, at the hourly rate, you know, you have to think about the fact that we're paying the candidate, and more than half of what the bill rate is to the client, you know, going to the candidate. But then of course there is, you know, we handle unemployment, and then of course there's our fees taxes payroll taxes and all that that we're covering for you. So, you do save some money because you're not putting the person on your own payroll. But you know it is, it may, you know be more expensive than let's say if you hired them on your own but the cost is that your is at the expense of your own labor. You simply do not have the time to let's say complete your gala, and the gala brings in a million dollars every fiscal year. The cost of not getting the gala done properly is the bigger cost than hiring the town. Right. And it's also I want to back up because I think this is a really interesting aspect. I'd love for you to maybe chat a little bit more about this. You just said some magical things. One is your company that staffing company is is paying the employee, they're they're dealing with all the paperwork filing all the taxes, all that stuff. And then I got to ask this, ultimately, if it doesn't work out or hiring or firing, that's on you as well right. You're absolutely right we basically are able to take away all of the sort of the unfun stuff about hiring so you're you're absolutely right so like the sourcing of candidates, we pre screen them for you. You know when you want to hire someone, we, you know, are going to put them on our payroll so we handle getting all of their paperwork references on file. So, just sort of like the direct deposit forms you know those kind of like boring things that you have to coordinate with your finance department. You don't even have to worry about it you've hired them they're starting on Monday we handle the rest. And so, you know, there's a convenience factor to that. So we make sure that the candidates happy in terms of compensation and that, you know, they're getting their paycheck, you know, sometimes quicker than an organization does because they may be on a two week or a month cycle. So, you know, sometimes that's also helpful and keeping candidates engaged because it's a short term thing, and we're getting them paid right away. So that's, that's also what you are, are paying for with our services the convenience and freeze your time up to continue with what I'm assuming is you're already swamp schedule, which is why you even need a temporary employee in the first place, because people do the part jobs unexpectedly, there are emergencies that come up people go into labor early you know there's all these reasons why you know people would need a temporary staffing and it's not all negative. You know, it is something that is, that is supposed to enhance your department or your organization, it's not supposed to be a detriment or become more cumbersome we're trying to make it convenient for you. Right. Now, in the world of the nonprofit sector and I, it's just not the nonprofit sector but you know we have a lot of security issues, and we have things like background checks you touched on that briefly fingerprinting, you know, stuff like that. So something that is realistic to think that a temp agency is going to manage that on top of everything else depends on how complex sort of the background check process is for my like hospitals, schools, you know, some of the bigger institutions, it is a little bit more difficult. Now, that was also true pre COVID. Now that it's post COVID there's even more requirements, even for organizations that are in regular offices and not attached to a hospital or something. You know, now we're screening for things like hey are you vaccinated you can't get into the office building without, because it may not even be the organization's requirements it may be because we're working in New York. Some of these high rise buildings have these, you know, they're following like CDC recommendations in terms of like vaccination status, as well as like you may, you know, have to bring in a negative test for the first time. Who knows what the requirements are that particular building so that's something that we're kind of rolling with the punches with as well because it's also changing as time goes on of us dealing with COVID. So, the less complex the background processes obviously the quicker the agency is able to onboard a candidate, but I have clients that have a very difficult, you know background check process or I shouldn't say difficult but just more more tedious more involved. Yeah. And, and we work with them on it so you know, as much as we can, we collect, you know the necessary paperwork well we have access to background checks so if we have a client that says, it's okay if you do the background check we just need it done. We can totally manage that for them, but we do have some clients that the compliance is their organization has to do these checks period there's no like they can't get it from a third party and so. But I find that organizations like that they're there, they're a well oiled machine they're used to that. You know, so it's totally fine to, you know, once they've hired somebody they're able to move that final bit of the process for it very quickly. Their compliance department is, you know, you know, used to it and they can bring the person and do the medical check to the background check and have them, you know cleared and ready to go within 24 to 48 hours. So, you know, it also is sometimes on the organization's end to be efficient with that as well. And we can move as quickly as an organization could move so if we get an email saying hey we want to hire this person that you had us interview. You know, can you do a background check of three references. We're on it immediately and and you know that takes priority and we get the person cleared and ready to go. But thinking about how you can streamline those processes before you move forward with hiring attempt is key. Yeah, it's really an interesting thing because it goes back to the very first question and conversation we had is, you know, meeting expectations but you know, drilling down away from the drama and the fear of not having the labor but actually figuring out what the management aspect is. I would have never thought about just the COVID aspect and the testing and where you can, I mean, that's fascinating that that's absolutely riveting. It's a big deal. It's a new it's a new frontier and we've got some organizations for whom there are no vaccination requirements you know and nothing's changed. So many that it's now part of the landscape of of of the hiring process for them. And so we're all on a learning curve with it candidates recruiters clients. Yeah, you know, so we're all trying to be patient with each other on that because it is brand new thing. And not only brand new but it's evolving. Yes, it's constantly changing. You know, I yeah the numbers of COVID reporting COVID's going up dramatically in the West and I just read, I think in the New York Times in the last two days that many places in Los Angeles even are thinking about re asserting internal requirements. You know, it's it is something you need to stay on top of. Yeah, before I let you go. And I got to ask this question and I don't mean to demean your entire set. Tell me the truth, sister, how efficient is temporary labor I mean do we do we put too much on them, or do we not put enough. How does this actual ecosystem work. I think that there is an ecosystem under which template labor can be extremely efficient, effective, and make the difference between an organization meeting their goals over a certain amount of time. So the ecosystem is going to include screening the candidate for the most crucial portions of the job that you need them to do, and focusing on that in terms of their background so for example if you give me a job, and there's maybe eight bullet points that you need to know, but we focus on the top four that you need the most help with. And that's what I match the candidates backgrounds to that I'm going to present to you. I think we're setting it up for more success once they get in there. And the things that you need the most help with is what the person has experienced with and I think that creates a great synergy.