 All right, thank you for being here. I had a nice call with Mila last, I guess it was last week, in which she said, hey, hey Jerry stop fighting about all the different moving parts that make an official looking podcast be podcasty and just like start the calls. So that I think that's great advice, and then in the spirit of do the simplest thing that could possibly work. The first call or two might even just be me interviewing a human. Just one on one without worrying about audience other people other sorts of things and just sort of getting into the rhythm of doing something. So at this point I'm just like, I just want to pick a person and a date and do that, and then there's a bunch of moving parts that actually still need to be in place. In order to get moving but my problem is my brain has been consumed by several events that I'm part of like right now. And so, and so I would love some thinking through who would be, I think one one question I'd love to to ask you is, is who would make a great initial few guests and I'm looking at I've got a spreadsheet, where I've got a couple of stakeholders and other folks have put a couple ideas. And my brain is on a little bit of a block because I know a lot of humans, many of whom would make good guests, and my unaided recall on this is not going, going that well so any thoughts would be welcome. And as a small side note, I changed the art on the website because I took some photos of Malina bishops textile art. And so I'll just share believing the world page briefly. Some, some questions, which I do not mean to make into overthinking. But so it seems like an inaugural person. And you're just getting started. I feel like you would want to interview them again for episodes later eight episodes later something like that. So, do you want somebody well known, not well known. Do you want somebody deep and thoughtful about one thing do you want them broad about lots of things. I'm thinking at all that's exactly where my head is. I'm thinking, I'm thinking famous doesn't matter. At this point I'm thinking the dynamic of the call needs to work. I love your idea of just revisiting them in a few in a few calls after sort of figuring out more of what how the moving parts fit. I would love to have. So, what one thing I'm realizing is that weaving the world is is is like how do you eat an elephant kind of problem you only have to do it one bite at a time because any any if I, if I sit down with any one smart person, we're going to get just a little little chop on the surface in an hour and a half kind of session it's just not going to go that deep. I think I need to pick something a relatively narrow question to start with is what I'm thinking is to pick something so that we take a small bite that's interesting, and then go into it, and I know that the question will broaden out immediately into belief systems or other kinds of influences or other kinds of things that that matter right. But I'm trying to find somebody who'd be happy kind of kind of dwelling in that and yet can sort of bounce out to, well, I think this because of this this this and this which were my personal experiences, a book I read. And how my mom raised me, whatever, whatever else it might be. I'm imagining that that's like a really interesting fruitful starting point does that make sense. It makes sense. It also is going to sound weird. It sounds weird to me. It's not going to sound weird maybe. It seems like you want somebody well spoken. Somebody who's, I guess, you know, for the podcast, because part of the so another another thing just to observe is that the first episode is going to be something that's that helps grow audience for the next ones right so So to pick on myself real quick. I think I think really interesting things and I would be an interesting person to interview and I've got lots of, you know, depth. At the same part, the I recognize that when I say things a lot of times I have to say them about four times different ways until they start making sense, like they make sense to me. But you know somebody's, I wouldn't consider myself the best at well spoken. So, in contrast, in contrast, a person that comes to mind that I know you know and I know is David Weinberger. David Weinberger is thoughtful and deep and, but he's also able to say the first time something that makes a lot of sense and something that sounds, you know, interesting and, you know, median thoughtful. I'm going to put a link to the spreadsheet in the chat in a second. I just want to think about that. Love David Weinberger. He runs really deep and weaving the world feels to me like a very Weinberger project. Right. Small pieces loosely joined the information actually someone also the information that was click. There's a bunch of books basically on on this team he also he also runs way deeper than I do on philosophy, like he's really, really good at that stuff and I'm like just just a rank amateur. The one drawback is he's a white guy and I'm trying not to start on that path. And then, and that's just like the only drawback. Yeah, I totally agree. I was going to say. The guy in the US is kind of like the nexus of the wrong person to pick. I was my starting point my brain went to Angel Acosta. Who is at the Garrison Institute I did a podcast with him that was lovely. And he has one skill that I need for weaving the world, which is, he slowed our conversation down. And like in the middle of our podcast, he did some breath work, and just had us like, like, just way slow down and focus and I'm like, well that way, like I need much more of that. And, ironically, to go fast we're going to have to go slow. It's the slowest move smoothest fast kind of thing. And also, I think we might get places that we might just whip on past if it's just me. I was in. So I, there was a map of found last weekend Friday Saturday sort of over 24 hours, and I was in a couple of the sessions and in the second session, I was trying to get to one session didn't make it bounce found my way to a different zoom and ended up getting really enthusiastic about the conversation. And at the end, one of the participants was like Jerry, like, you may want to just slow down that like, like, you kind of like ate the space and I'm like, I get that but but what was said was like so juicy and I was like, yes, we could like that would be a great way to start doing something. And of the other three people on the call I don't know that any of them were into just doing something that was not why they were there. So, so I was like, God, damn it. You know, that was a, that was good feedback it was useful feedback me and I wasn't in a space where that was that was welcome I guess. Anyway, so yeah. Yeah. Aside from your, your desire which probably implies starting with a European African or Asian woman who really inspired you in this thinking because that's another place to start. So starting out something that's been important to you for a long time. And something or some things and some ideas and some people along the way really inspired you to move it forward. Who are those people what are those things. That's a great idea and actually, this is very funny. You're, you're reminding me. Hold on. There we go. To do, to do. Here we go to your screen. Think, you're reminding me that I have a thought in my brain called Rex fellow travelers and I started Rex in 2010. If the relationship economy expedition. This is kind of connected to my contrarians people who make or made sense. And this is a really, really, really nice list to pick from. And these would be people, probably a lot of them, as I was adding people to this thought I wasn't considering nationality or any of those kinds of things but like Dana Boyd. I haven't talked to in years would be super interesting to talk to Ethan Zuckerman white guy but runs incredibly deep. And let me actually give you a link to this thought. So that you can go there on your own and browse around whenever you are so inspired. But these are all people who, and I, they don't all know me these are some, some, some of these I'm just deriving from their work, but a lot of them I know. Mara Zepeda might be really interesting she does. She started the zebras movement. Marjorie Kelly visited Mondrag on several times and did really interesting work there. Nora Bateson might be interesting. She's semi famous and has a lot to say about warm data but might be might be a little narrow on that. I think Wheatley would be interesting. I think she's sort of been interviewed. Let's see. Oh, right, Melissa. Huh. I don't know Melissa flag that well but her but her work, it comes out of security and technology and stuff like that but she's super, super interesting as well. It's kind of a fake. Catering a fake. Yeah. Kind of an awesome. Oh, bunny Wang or. Oh my God, bunny Wang would make a great interview. You know, another good one would be Naomi, except Naomi who Naomi's got a bit of a design. No, she's a she's a Chinese maker. Not the right person probably. Audrey Tang would be good. Yeah, almost best so far. There we go. Real deep. So I'm thinking of Tim Wang not bunny. And Tim Wang would be real. Benny is flying is spelled with a U instead of a W this way right. Yeah. Yeah. And there we go. Hackers and a terror gong kai chumbie with a chumbie. Wow. Truly a hackers hacker I think right. Yep. Yeah. So I was thinking of Naomi Wu. She's she. She's actually really cool, but she has a presentation that will turn off some people. You just reminded me of somebody sexy cyborg, got you sexy cyborg. Yeah, you just made me think of Natalie when who does counterpoints who may not do interviews with other people. But who. Her takedown of Jordan Peterson, this right here is the fucking best logical takedown of Peterson I've ever ever run across. And her MO is to adopt the framing and style of the alt right so that her videos do a lot of self reference a lot of role play a lot there's a lot of set design and there's a lot of. A hundred times more production value in contrapoints than I intend to undertake. But I'm I'm really interested in particular that's I think one reason why Daryl Davis is high on my list. Really interested in people who are trying to bridge the divides in the world. Because it feels like that's an important part of weaving, and she does it and I'll share this link in our chat as well. And I stopped sharing for a second to, to find the chat to find the link rather because the brain is hiding things from me a little bit. Oops, didn't want to do it that way. Yes, well, I can do it that way. Okay, good. So here's the link to Jordan Peterson's takedown. Brain picker. Yeah. So the brain picker I tend, I tend to find to be lyrical. But not always that useful, more, more aesthetic. Yeah, more aesthetic and captivating than actually like we've I don't know. But but she runs really. The way she. She, like, if you look at her, oh, she's she weaves right, I think, if that makes sense. So here's Maria Popova. And in fact, I have a thought that I created long ago when OGM was just a baby of OGM test pilots, which would be exactly the kind of people you just described. Like people who seem to be weaving information. Oh, my God, Claire, that's interesting. So Claire is a storyteller. I don't I don't even know that she's posted many, many things online. But she's great. She's a huge character met her at the conference on World Affairs in Boulder. We were on a panel together. She would be interesting. But then other other test pilots. Let's see who Deb Blum as I'm not remembering. Oh, the author of love at Goon Park. Oh, wow. And also, huh, there's a lot, there's a whole bunch of science writers have gotten my brain that would be really interesting too. I mean, I'm inspired a lot by James Burke and his connection series, right. You should go back in time and which is a form of weaving, right, because he, so Burke's method. Here's Burke. Here's the connection series in 1978, which I have under books, movies, ideas that shaped many people's lives. And I'm one of the ones that was shaped by connections. But under this, you'll find Anne Rand, you know, Atlas shrugged in the fountain head. You'll find Engelbart's mother of all demos. You'll find the as a mouse foundation series. Star Trek and Star Wars, of course, et cetera, et cetera. Like, like these are things that have that kind of, that kind of energy. Burke is a white guy, but he's been busy weaving the world in a huge way forever. And, oh, and he has a project called the Knowledge Web, which at some point was using the brain. So here's K-Web in the brain. He was actually a brain user. And I think I've mentioned somewhere that I met him once. I got to shake his hand. I think he spoke at the Apple Newton announcement or something that's that far back in history. And I raced up at the end and shook his hand on stage and said, oh, I'm a fellow brain user. And he said, thank you next. I'm like, damn it. That didn't work. But, you know, maybe enough time has gone by that it would work. But let me put James Burke on the list. He's clearly, besides being like me, he's perfect because he's weaving. And partly what I'm looking for, and this is why. So I've asked Mila, Amber and Joe to, to put together a, an episode on something like regenerative culture or something like that on weaving in general. And it's going to be pretty emergent. Our problem is that two of them, Amber and Joe are like slam for time. And we're just having trouble figuring out when, but if it happens, you know, by the end of October, that'd be totally fine or start of November. But, but I think that's actually going, I'm very excited about that because Mila is the most emergent person. I've been speaking to in these, you know, in these times. And that works really well for me. But I'm interested in, let me go back to OGM test pilots for a second, because these are weavers. So Maria Popova, let me add her to the list. Thanks, Pete. I'm not a loyal enough reader of her blog. Maybe also Kelvi Bird. Kelvi might be really interesting. She's a black belt graphic facilitator. I met her at Davos, actually, when she was doing graphic facilitation in sessions. She's been working extremely closely with the Presencing Institute and Otto Sharmer. And almost all the visuals at Presencing Institute have that black background and gold and silver writing trademark kind of look of Kelvi's. She's also a part of the value web, which is a larger group of people that are busy doing graphic facilitation, other kind of stuff. There could in fact be a follow on conversation with other members of the value web. If she was, I mean, if she was into this, this might be a really, really interesting path into some of these topics. I'm thinking Kelvi's a really super idea here. Let me add her to the list. Okay. Because I think starting with someone who's also got a Jones to weave is a really good idea here. Let me go back to Rex fellow travelers. And the Rex fellow travelers thought is one of these slow build thoughts. These are just people I've been adding slowly after great conversations. To the list where I realize. And again, I don't know all of them personally. Like I've never met Rianne Eisler, which seems very resonant. She wrote the chalice in the blade way back when, which kind of made her famous in 1987. And she cares about a lot of these similar kinds of ideas. And she is a contrarian who makes sense, which is the other thought I just kind of sort of mentioned, which is, which matters a lot to me. And these are people who've taken. A different approach. Contrarian approach to issues in their domain that made a lot of sense. Oh, participatory systems, radical help. This so Hillary Cotter might be. Perfect. Huh. Relational welfare. The problem on some to tease. The problem on some of these people is that. I haven't read a lot of their work and I won't have time to go read a book and do other kinds of things. I think between calls, certainly not early on. And I want to be better informed coming into the calls, although that's not a premise of weaving the world. And partly having people explain things works fine. But, you know, I'm listening to some good podcasts that exist today and makes a difference. And I think that the interviewer is actually. Well informed on, on the person's thinking. Social services are broken. Here's a, here is one of her talks. This is a TED talk that I annotated. So interesting. So she talks about the beverage report, which was pivotal in the UK. William beverage wrote a report saying we're killing people. We're killing people. We're killing people. We're killing the creation of the national health service because in World War two, Britain nationalized their healthcare system. During as a, during the war crisis, and then they kept it as a result of the beverage report, et cetera. And I know only the surface level of the story. Anybody who can go deeper into that would be super interesting, but these, this is kind of the way to. To start weaving things. That might be great. Other thoughts. Bunker Roy. Um, he's, he's, I, I got to hang with him a little bit. At, um, At an event and he's, the way he thinks is really interesting. Um, yeah. He founded barefoot college. And he was all about, um, he told some great stories about, um, empowering women. And how putting your energy into making women more effective is much more. Um, There's many more dividends than, than the same thing with, with men. Alas. She had a, uh, or he had a, um, He had a rural electrification project in India where, um, his, his trick was to teach the grandmas how to be the electricians installing the solar panels and the lights. Yep. And he said, man, too lazy. Yeah. And the, the grandmas were the ones who were invested in, in the community and, and, you know, leveling up technology. So you get a light at night, you know. Yeah. Exactly. Um, do you know what I blame this problem on? What's that? TMR. What's that? Just to us to an induced mental retardation. Yeah. Which is a fake thing, but it's like, yeah. Like, uh, you know, I read this piece on, on Iceland where during the, during the 2008 financial crisis, basically men who were fishermen one day suddenly became, uh, derivative traders the next day and almost sank the country. Yep. And the women of Iceland basically saved the country and, and didn't, didn't like castrate all the men, which was really nice of them. Um, but a few, a few bankers did go to jail. Um, but I, I, I just. Yeah. Yeah. Just take this, uh, unfortunately through most of human history, I think TMR is to blame for a lot of stuff. Yeah. Jerry. Yeah. I would seriously consider one of the people who is. A real weaver. Like, uh, Maria Pope of our perhaps Calvi bird. Uh, uh, I'm a, I'm a paid subscriber to. Maria's blog. And although I don't have time to read it as often as I'd like. It's not like she's a content person. She's a process person. Yeah. And I think it would be nice to start off weaving the world with a process discussion, why weaving the world in whatever way you do it is important. So one thing that argues in favor of Maria Poppa is this thought right here. As you'll see these are issues of brain pickings. Yeah. Listed alphabetically because that's the way I choose to do them. This is just a through D. Yeah. There's a scroll bar down here and you'll see there's more issues, more episodes of brain pickings. And in each case, so let's pick one at random, how to avoid work, the 1949 guide to doing what you love. In each case in this, in this case, I only connected it to the book, which I don't think I'd ever heard of. And you know, I listed connected the book to career guides, meaningful work and William Riley who wrote it. He's a career counselor. So that one's not the, not that juicy, but, but a good episode. I will, how a jellyfish and a sea slug illuminate the mysteries of life. Darn it. Usually I do, usually I do more than this. And actually, lately I do more than this because I've grown more rhythmic and faster in my note taking in my brain. So anything I loved any video or book or post that I love, recently will be much better woven into my brain. So anyway, having this to start with, and I will say that I've fallen off reading her pieces lately because they're long reads. She does not, she does not write briefly. And I haven't seen her interviewed any place. So I don't know her style or her voice or anything like that. But, but this, this makes me think that this would be a really great place to start because I've got her under well curated blogs, newsletters and lists, picking someone's brain memory, et cetera, et cetera. You know, here's Ira Glass on the Seekers success and creative work. It's great. And, and she's, as you're saying, she's totally a weaver. Yeah. Well, I've been following her for years. And I knew nothing about it. I just Googled her. She's Bulgarian. In fact, which also places it a bit outside of the, the North American context, which I understood was interesting for you as well. And I mean, she weaves in a completely different way than you weave. And we might even consider even a third type of weaving if, if one of the other people on your, on your list is like that and have a three way discussion about why people think it's so important to weave the world. Yeah. And my goal is for each episode of weaving the world to have a shadow episode or several where we actually post process what the conversation was about and to, and to invite all of our community and whoever else feels like taking a swing at weaving with whatever tool, whatever tool they want and offer that in the conversation. And part of that will be us weaving our work into one another's ideas, right? Which may only mean I add a link to someone else's mind map in my brain, but that's a good start, right? Because, you know, in principle, there'd be a new, a new thought under Maria Popova, which would be a thought for the episode of the conversation with her. And then from there would, would, would sprout a bunch of other kinds of things. Yeah. Okay. So Popova's a, and I have, I have no, she does not know who I am. I have no links to her swallow. I'll have to find my way. Another really interesting person. Just a hugely interesting person because he runs so deep is Sam. I'm going to add him to the spreadsheet and my thought. Just because he comes out of. He's a Tai Chi practitioner. He's been part of the GCC community. Stacy, you were involved in GCC some, I think, right? I still am. As a matter of fact, I mentioned the podcast to stand last week. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, damn. Okay. And also what we could do is it could be Sam and a couple of the GCC members, maybe, I mean, it doesn't have to always be one person. It can be a couple of people from a community. To sort of dive deep on where they've been, what they've learned, what they believe in, what they don't believe in, you know, and any one of those directions is really, really fruitful for me. I just wanted to go back to the idea because you were looking for the first, you know, the first show and we were focused on, I thought we were focused on like finding a woman or as Hank brought up, would you be open to having two people? Because then you mentioned, you know, you mentioned some men that you'd love to have as well. Then you could, if you had one of each, that would be fine. But what I wanted to say is you mentioned that you had never heard her speak before. Maria speak before. I would really, I think it's really important to have heard somebody, even if it wasn't a long speak. You know, I mean, yeah. I totally agree. And one of my next tasks will be to go to YouTube and find a video of her being interviewed or what. Yeah, I think that that's actually really important. And as Pete said at the start of this call, like somebody who speaks with clarity would be great. Well, this is a nice building list. Thank you. This is really, and some of these people I have immediate access to. And others we can find our way to. And every one of them I can ask for other recommendations of other people to bring into the show. So, yeah. Other thoughts inspired by the conversation so far. Question, do you want one episode to build on others? Not necessarily the first building second and the second building third, but the first coming back to the fourth and the second coming back to the fifth. That's another interesting way to weave. You are first series together. You're making me think of the book I'd never finished, which I'm sure Pete has finished. Good old Escher Bach. Oh yeah, yeah, didn't finish it. Yeah. You're making me think that that that a thing I could actually do is I could make that I could, I could create a canon of ideas. And I could do that through the podcast, right? Yeah. Where they kind of touch every third call or every eighth, or I could go up a minor chord and I know no music theory. So I'm totally back breaking, you know, doing this poorly. But actually it's a lovely idea because I think that, I think that this notion of coming back. First of all, what I'm realizing story threading for unfinished is that there are some common threads across the interviews, partly because it's a common theme for the audience, partly also because a bunch of people who are good thinkers are often thinking about, hey, how can we just get along? Like, like what, what should society be shaped like? How do we structure society? Where do we go? And once you've done that, you're, you're in, you're in the same thicket of thoughts, maybe from extremely radically different perspectives or entry points, but, but you're in that thicket, right? Yeah. And so just, just from that perspective, and then the reason I don't have like 20 or 2000 brain files is that for me, everything is deeply intertwangled, which might be the mantra of the show or something like that. I should, I should pick two or three quotes like that, that don't all come from white guys that, that are basically, and I've got a thought. I haven't, I thought I, I like a lot called global unity. Where I collect up things like that. So. I like Hank's idea and it doesn't have to be a cannon, but if the episodes all weave together, you've got to win. So I think, I think. Oh, it would be cool to look back after eight episodes and, and say, see this thread weaves through all of them. So, yes, totally love that. I'm going to, I think may want to host the little live pretty sure. So there was this interview that I apparently loved because I wrote excellent on it and this is, these are the, she's a scientist, clearly. And this is really, really interesting quantum coherence maximizes both local freedom and global cohesion. So this conversation is kind of way beyond my pay grade, but just the kind of nutrient that I would love to swim in. Oh, I know who else would be interesting. Just add. I'm going to. Now I just have to remember her name. It always swings by, she would be under uploading your mind. Martin Rothblatt. Cyber consciousness. Actually working on longevity and uploading it like, like doing serious work, at least smart. Anybody have thoughts of plus or minus. I'll just add her to the list. And Natalie when they're not for her here. And let me just connect this back up to Natalie when as well. I'm trying this. It's funny. I have conversations now and then where I have this feeling like, oh my God, we're on the same journey. Wow. This person loves doing this. Weaving thing. And then I forget who those people are. Like they like the, I have a lot of exciting conversations. And they've receded it about into the back enough in my memory that I don't remember. And if I didn't connect them to Rex fellow travelers or one of those thoughts. Unlikely, I'll find it in my notes the way, the way I'm sort of normally taking notes. Hank, thank you for finding a. Yeah, I lost the link. But I just Googled Mary. YouTube and yet lots of different things. Cool. Well, that's plenty of. I feel like that's a rich field of, of possibilities. So. Thank you for the brainstorming. And when, when, when do you plan to do the first interview? That's a great question. I actually sort of just need to partly it's subject to whoever I invite to join me schedule because I'm at this point. At this point, I think I'm not set on having a time schedule for when the episodes actually run, but rather being opportunistic and setting them up for whatever. At this point, partly I talked with Marie Beardy yesterday. And she was like, do the simplest thing that could possibly work. So not trying to corral an audience to join us, but rather just doing the interview. And the weaving so that it's that's also less confusing for whoever winds up watching the episode. And then posting the episode and then inviting a group of people to do the post processing episode. And, and the closest I've come to the language for that is behind the scenes or behind the curtain or something like that. But basically the shadow episode. And if you like what to call, what to call the weaving episodes that are, that are afterward, you know, we're fixing it in post. What's a, what's nomenclature metaphoric or otherwise that would make, that would maybe make sense for, for naming those, the weaving of episodes. They could be the weaving episodes, although I'll be weaving during the interviews some, some time later, but I'm hoping that it's going to be, hopefully not so much that it's intrusive on the conversation, but, but kind of what I want is pair programming. Over content. In some sense, right. The way I'd love to be able to handle it is that. Whoever I'm talking to is kind of squinting and looking at the things that I'm busy listening. And adding. To my brain. To my brain. To my brain. To my brain. It really, it's, it's, it's connected the other way or, or whatever. Behind the threads. Ooh. Cause normally this would be bonus content or the making of, it could also be, you know, the usual. The usual framing is things like the making of, or. Other kinds of stuff. Or, and, and, Marie is really not fond of the big fungus as a name. She loves the metaphor. She thinks metaphorically it's really rich, but she doesn't, she's not that crazy about anything called the fungus sort of being involved. I really like it because it's funny and memorable. And metaphorically really, really rich. And fun guy in the air. I don't know if anybody's noticed that. Like the fungus thing is happening all over the place in medicine and they're doing this. There's a lot of new fabrics and. Bioremediation. I don't know, all over the place. Did you see the, the link to the exhibition about Fong? I haven't had this morning and going on now in Berlin. I haven't had a chance to follow it, but totally excited. Yeah. And did I relate that I did that two years ago here. Near the Portland Zoo. There was a fungus festival. festival. And it wasn't the shopping arcade where you could buy mushrooms, they were, there was a octagonal room where they had put tables in sort of star shape in the middle picture foosball sized tables full of soil. Six of them, I think each of them packed with fresh fungi that had been found somewhere nearby clearly in the last day or two. Although you could keep them in soil that would have lasted a little longer but fungi don't stay fruity that long. And they were beautiful and they were incredibly different. And I panned, I panned my camera across a couple of them but back then I was using like a lomo filter and everything so they look a little odd. But incredibly beautiful and I missed the talk by my colleges to is like the local dude who's big on that kind of stuff. Anyway, having a just a talk about mycelia and fungal metaphors would be really interesting. And partly I'm trying to find other people who are excited about weaving the world, even with other tools. Like I've been watching a couple videos about the Cult of Rome and Obsidian versus Rome and the guy, Link, your thoughts, Pete that you mentioned, I was watching some of his stuff. Some of them wind up, I think maybe this is how you become a YouTube celebrity with a following but they wind up being a little bit doctrinaire about their methodology. And it's like here's my workflow and this is like workflow and I'm like I'm not that interested in here's my workflow. I'm really interested in how does Obsidian help you weave the world? That would be a great conversation, right? That'd be really interesting in how somebody's actually done it and to wander through their map as I'm wandering through my map to add some of their links to my brain. That's like really, really exciting to me. That sounds like a fun, a fun conversation. And so I just need to pick a date. But as I said, it's contingent on who I invite. So I think my next task is to write Daryl Davis and Maria Popova and Kelvie Bird. Let me just look at my list again. Angel Lacosta I think would readily join a call and be up for exploring. I think he might be really lovely to have early in the queue as well. And maybe David Weinberger can make an appearance as the first white guy. Because I love him. He's really you're you're right. He's just like thoughtful. He's thoughtful at the level. The only thing I predict will be an issue will be him saying, no, no, no, I'm not not like the guy you need on this. I'm not smart enough or whatever. And I'm like, Yep, easy prediction. Yeah, yeah. So where it says self deprecating in Webster's or whatever, there should be a little portrait of David Weinberger next to it. He's like the master of self deprecation. Cool. And I've got I must go to a different call at the top of the hour and you've been lovely to co-think with me on how to do this. So in the spirit of do the simplest thing that could possibly work, what other kinds of things need to happen soon? Pete and I are going to talk about automating some of the workflow because I went and looked at Jim Rutt's show. I think I shared this with you all. For some of you, I went and listened to actually read the transcript. Let me just screen share on this. So Rutt has his own podcast. In episode 140, he interviews Robin Dunbar about his new book, Friends, which is this book, Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships, which just published. And and so here's Dunbar, who is famous for the Dunbar number. And turns out now there's the Dunbar numbers, because he's refining his his whole idea, which is interesting. I mean, it maps actually really well to Christopher Allen's post long ago about, hey, humans have different kinds of numbers that have different effects on how group dynamics work. But this episode of the podcast was really rich. This, this, this was a very fun weaving experience for me. And so one of the things that I ended up adding to my brain was the seven pillars of friendship, which I think I did show in one of our OGM calls recently. And here he says, Hey, if you share the more of these seven pillars, you share with somebody the stronger your friendship is likely to be. This runs against diversity. And, you know, had I been on the podcast, I would have started asking questions about their approach to diversity, because toward the end of the call, they were a little bit kind of dismissive about about diversity and its role. And I think it gets really interesting, because this basically says, growing up in the same place, speaking the same language, having the same education, sharing the same moral political point of view, all of this militates against diversity. Right. But for, but for friendship, so goes the theory. That's interesting. And I think pushing that a little harder and going places would be cool. So I say all of this because I think that the minimal bar, this is not a minimal bar, but the low bar for an episode of a podcast is now to be something like this page, which is the page on ruts on the Jim rut show.com slash Robin Dunbar, which has episode 140 Dunbar on friendship. Here's how you play the episode. And then this is basically the cover of the intro and cover with a picture of Dunbar. And then if you click on episode transcript, there is a different page that opens up, which has a lovely and not perfect, but very, very good transcript that says who's speaking, etc, etc. The transcript is not connected to the links. So I think in here, I thought there was a page also with that they had created with some links that were referenced in the podcast, but I'm thinking I'm, I think I'm thinking of somebody else's podcast, but I think episodes are going to wind up needing some of these kinds of things. And the more this is automatable, the better. It's how I'm thinking about it. I just put a comment there based on the story you told about in the hackathon, people telling you afterwards you swallowed the space. Personally, I think you've got more to say than lots lots of people who talk, but you do want to balance. So you also have to make certain that your, your conversation partner doesn't practice it. So I could imagine you'd want to practice it, maybe with Alice, maybe with someone else a couple of times before you do it. Well, I can always just do it. And if the episode fails somehow miserably, I don't have to publish it. So putting the working to do it is fine. Any one of these can could actually be an episode. But I, but yeah, and I'm, I think, I think I need to couch the invite and I need to approach the conversations a little more slowly. So pacing timing is apparently an issue for me because we're about to test for a level in Aikido. My sport is Aikido, and I'm, I'm testing for second Q on November 8. And one of my vices in Aikido is I go fast and slow, like I'll do a piece of a throw quickly and then sort of stop or pause or whatever. And really what you want is measured pace. You just want measured pace. It looks better. It throws better. The whole thing works better. You preserve your posture and balance and all that. So I think this is kind of like that. It's a it's just like measured pace with room for occasional flurries of excitement. Yeah, you're muted, Stacy. Yep. Do you have the question that you want to start with or is that going to depend on who you who you get the guest? Totally depends on who the guest is. Yeah. And it'll I think it'll be a version of Hey, what the I mean, an easy place to start is what does weaving the world mean to you? And how do you practice it? And what do you wish it would be that that's a really simple place to start? A very different place to start is, Hey, how do we fix monocropping in the world? Or whatever? I mean, going into any one of the multiple technical or or societal grave questions we're kind of facing to fix the world. Because I'm I'm trying also to approach people who have I'm hoping also to put on the tour of people we visit people who've got really promising solutions to the world's ills. I mean, there's another thought. This is another happy hunting ground, I think, for people to go visit. I've got a thought called promising solutions to world crises and thorny social problems. And now my brain is beach balling. Promising young women. There we go. Yeah. So here's rethink. And some of these sub thoughts are entire sort of, you know, rethinking the welfare state is a is a whole, whole world here. But partnerism, for example, is an interesting concept. So that's Rhianne Eisler's word kind of. Common is another aspect. And that's David Bollier's work. David Bollier would probably be fantastic. He he has such an enormous body of work. But also really rich communities and all that I'm going to add David Bollier to to the spreadsheet and to the potential guests list. It would be lovely if when I did this gesture in the brain, if this name was popped into the spreadsheet, wouldn't that be kind of cool? Instead, I'm doing double entry. But there we go. Any other thoughts, suggestions? Yeah, by chance, last week, I was interviewed for my first real face to face podcast. And it was physical, face to face in a recording studio, the environment that the studio created was excellent. We sat about a meter and a half apart. You spoke into a really good microphone which slowed down your voice. So it sounded just like a radio voice. And we just had a terrific conversation. Didn't stop for an hour and a half. And that's something about creating what the Japanese call the bar, the shared context. So however you do it, then I'm assuming you won't be face to face in a in a nice, comfortable studio. Just concentrate in advance on the bar that you want to create to share with the other person. Thank you. Here's Ba. It's Nonaka and here's Ba. And learned by watching some or reading actually some Dave Snowden that Kenevan, the name Kenevan and the idea of a formal framework was in fact a competitive move against Ba. Because he was like, that's really cool. Like they've got like this really great framing that goes back, you know, richly into Japanese culture and history. We need one. So that's where Snowden sort of dipped into Welsh culture and language and found Kenevan. But it's pretty cute. But Ba is I think part of what we're trying to create here. Right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, Ba is a Ba is actually important to what in fact, I have above open global mind as a whole. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. I have it. I have OGM under we're weaving a global brain. We need better curation, organizational memory, collaborative sense making, global brains, stuff like that. Yeah. Cool. I've seen a lot of face to face conversations on the Dutch television. There's an excellent series six times a year every summer, six weeks in the summer. The interviewer selects six people and those six people spend three hours talking about their ideal television night. And they introduce lots and lots of clips from whatever they think would be fantastic to see on their ideal television night. And they think, yeah, so much. Exactly. And it's only it's only here, Hank, because you've mentioned it before. Oh, yeah. Okay. And there's such a difference in the dynamic that that's created between the different hosts and the different guests. And it's impossible to anticipate whether there'll be a click. And if there's a click, it's fantastic television. And if there's no click, it doesn't matter how fascinating the guest is, and how wonderful the clips are, it just doesn't work. And it's painful to stay there for three hours. But it can be done. But it really, you know, it needs kind of what do you call that? What's it Alan Watts called that empty something, an empty, empty mind, maybe something like that. Yeah. Yeah. If you step in, one of the problems with the present Dutch interview, who's awful, is she steps in with a whole agenda of what she wants to accomplish. But in the past, there have been interviews who stepped in with a kind of empty mind, and let a conversation emerge. And that that's such powerful television. Love that. Most of you've noticed that one of my favorite demos is to bring people together, have a kind of a question in the air, and then just see where the conversation goes and follow what emerges, which I love. Or in the Thursday check-in reverie calls, just to, you know, just to say, hey, what's up? What's up in your head? Anyway, I've got about two different call. I thank you greatly for this. It's been super helpful. Really good. Thank you. Bye bye.