 Welcome everybody back here on Seedle Talks. It's a Monday morning on week 11, a new week of Talks with Seedle artists from around the world we listened to in the time of Corona. And of course, the last week has shaken up everything, changed also the discussion, but still, you know, it is connected. So very, very much in the time we do live in, we feel strongly, we need to listen to artists. They have been on the right side of history, the struggle and the fight for the complex type of freedom and liberties. And I think they do have things to say, we have to be careful to really take in. We should have listened to them much earlier that could have saved us perhaps a lot of trouble. And today we have with us two theater artists here from America, from New York and not now in Los Angeles. And I would like to welcome on our program, Ngozi Ayanbo and Jonas McRoy. Kroy from the National Black Theater here in Harlem. Thank you both of you for coming. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Good Jonas, and what's going on? How do you feel in these days? So what's going on? I mean, I just want to say that it's really important to carve out space for thoughtful, compassionate dialogue as much as possible and having as much open conversation. So I think that hopefully throughout the midst of this intersection of dialogue between Ngozi, myself and you, we create a space of transparent dialogue that helps to potentially create some framing or hopes to create a pathway. I think that when I think about what's going on and how I live throughout my days in the era of Corona and also in the wake of the murder of George Floyd, in the wake of so many murders and just the awakening that's happening in so many different ways. Or just I won't call it awakening, the unveiling because it's always been there that's happening in so many different ways. I really have to pause. I take a lot of confidence in the wisdom that's housed in a person that I really look up to, James Baldwin, and looking at how he was a great witnesser and he was a witness through action, how he pinned a lot of things that he saw, how he also voiced a lot of the things that he saw and the things that he was able to pin was about offering to the future generations. So I actually asked myself in this moment, what is our offering to the future? What is our offering? I'm wearing a shirt intentionally black to the future because my conversation that I really wanna have is how are we instilling the future to have a kind of brighter spot than our present? How are we, and that's what I sit with. That's what I'm sitting with on a day-to-day basis. I call Nguzi about it. Me and her have FaceTime conversations about it. What does the future actually look like that is birthed from the love vibration of this present moment? What does this future look like that is not based on shame, that's not based on another name called oppression, that actually creates the most powerful Afro-futuristic moment that we possibly ever can imagine because it's all there. It's all there, it's all been positioned for us to actually be able to do it. So when I think about my day-to-day action, it's about deep meditation, deep silence, but also about witnessing from a space of active participating, right? And active participating for me is running the National Black Theater, making sure National Black Theater is fortified and able to withstand this moment, making sure that my colleagues are spiritually, mentally, and even physically fortified and ready for this moment because our readiness is going to be the thing that makes sure that the love note we give to our future generations, the love note that I saw James Baldwin provide for our future generations is something that they can live off of, something that they can say I'm proud to be a part of, something that they can say that like, they thank you for tilling the ground so I could plant new seeds. That's me. That's real, Jonathan, that's real. That's real, that's real. I just been trying to get out of bed in the morning. That's been my goal. My goal's been like, well, the world's on fire. Again, what do I do? Where's my place? Am I not doing enough? Should I get out on these streets? Should I take a nap? Should I light some candles? Should I pray? And I'm not much of a prayer. Should I write? Am I not doing enough if I don't write? Should I do something? Should I post something? Should I, who do I call? What can I do? Where do I donate? Did I not donate enough? Am I not doing enough? Is anything enough? Is anything enough? Is anything enough? And that's sort of where I've been in as someone who feels like a sort of very active artist who is always trying to include black people, make community, figure out why it is that I've written this thing and who gets to see it and who gets to share it. And now being in a place where anything you share, you have to do it from home and other people can't be around you when you do it. As a theater artist, that's like literally the opposite of what I do. And so for three months, it's been a lot of figuring out why I do anything if I can't do it with other people in the room. And then figuring out how to share that work with people who are very good at channeling their trauma into action and deciding if I want to be a part of that and doing things like 24-hour plays and writing little things and trying to purge and get some work done in the days that I feel good. And then obviously with, I don't know, we can call it the Great Awakening. I feel like it's the Great Awakening because I don't know a movement since I've been alive in my 37 years that's been this global where people around the world are feeling the need to do something or say something. And that's probably with the mixture of unemployment, inequality, because it said that, right? That whenever other countries are much intense with their protesting than ours and because they're not content and they've been talking about it. You are not content a society will revolt. And so with these three months of being indoors and people not having money and people not knowing what their future will be when things do open, people have actually had time to sit with their discontent and sit with their dissatisfaction. And it's been a lot to watch. It's been deafening to watch. It's been inspiring. It's also been maddening that people didn't feel like they needed to do anything about it before. And so it's been a lot of just figuring out day by day, hour by hour, you know? There are like great, great highs of like, okay. Like yesterday was my first day of protesting. I'm like, all right. Well, I've been in this house and people are out on these streets and it feels strange to walk to the grocery store and not get caught up in a protest. Like it's like, what am I doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have nothing, it's not like I got a little work. Like, you know what I mean? Let me go to work. So yesterday was the first day of actually getting out there for hours and channeling some energy. And I don't know that I feel better cause I might have to go out again cause it's like the work, you know, the work is here. The work is here to be done and it's an hour. It's an hour and hour day by day basis of like, do I have the energy and capacity to do it and not making myself feel guilty if I don't have the energy or capacity to do it today or tomorrow or in an hour. And I just want to uplift that, like you talked about moment to moment hour to hour and it's really breath to breath, right? It's like honoring the simplicity of like, what does my breath want me to do in this moment? And that's why I really appreciate you simplifying my grandeur of language, right? Because no, no, honestly, honestly because in the next breath, what is my choice? Next breath, what is my next movement gonna be that honors me, not this ideology of me, not this mythic notion of me, not this epic space called me, but this simplistic me, the me that has to like put food in my mouth, the me that has to watch TV or watch whatever or figure out how do I not or do digest the news, the me that has to participate in society, that breath, that next breath is the one that tells me, if I actually truly sit with it, that the next breath lets me know, how do I want to engage? And I have choice in the matter always. I have choice in the matter of if I want to be in that protest, if I don't want to be in that protest. And then I also have a choice to call that guilt if I do or call that preservation if I do, right? And like how we navigate that, especially as black and brown folks sitting in this spot, in this skin, in this age, right? And knowing what is being broadcast to us is where we should be. It's also like, what will benefit and serve the me that I am, the me that I sit with, who I am, what my politics are, what I will tell, what will actually be meaningful to me? And that's implicit notion of what you just said of like moment to moment, hour to hour. And then I also just wanna layer in the idea of the simplicity of the breath to breath. Yeah. Because that breath to breath reality is where we're at. There's something shifting and changing with every breath we take. Something shifting and changing in every breath that we decide to say, I will, because in that same breath that you said you wanted to protest and that same breath, you also have the right to say, I'm not gonna protest anymore. Yeah. And in that same breath. Some way things are not going to be the same. If you're in tune with your body, if you're in tune with what's happening, if you're in tune, there's just been a deep sense of, and I joke about existential crisis, but it's true, there's just been a deep sense of what is this all for? What is it? What's the point? What exactly? And there are some people who are realizing that at the moment they have been living without purpose. At the moment, they have not been in tune with a lot of people. In the moment, they've been in tune with only themselves. And that actually we are all global figures, we are all connected. That I can't walk out the door now without thinking about these other people who have been killed. And this is what people have always been thinking of, right? I can't walk out the door now without thinking about these black and brown bodies that have been killed also during the coronavirus. Like there are the disproportionate killings of our, they look like us, right? Of those bodies that were stacked up in New York. So there are just many, people are waking up to the fact that they have been living for themselves when it is not just about them. And then it goes back to the very notion of, but then what does the future look like? So what is the responsibility to that future and to the world? And that is a really overwhelming awakening. That is really, that is a shift, that is a difficult way to now walk for the world when you have really just been walking with this world for yourself. And now you're gonna have to really constantly think about how do what I do affect others, right? If you before you can't go out without a mask, right? Because so people will not let you in their stores without masks. And there are some people who are ignoring that, but there are some people who, you know, they're opening up by city next week. And there are some people who are like, and for me, I'm like, I will probably still be staying indoors most of the time. You know, because I have to think about how my actions affect other people. And some people have always walked through that world and some people have walked through it kind of. And it's just gonna be, and we're not out of the woods yet, you know? And there's also just an accountability thing we're happening that happens with social media that happens with that and a policing of each other for better or worse. We're making other people accountable for their past actions. It's just for the Me Too movement, right? And so now we were having a Me Too movement in racism, right? And that is just, that can't be ignored. I don't know that they're devoid from each other because there's also a racial disparity with the coronavirus. So because they're just glaring racial disparities, I don't know that, you know, the murder of George Floyd and Ahmaud and continuous other black bodies, I don't know that we can separate those things. And I also think, I also just wanna say that it is America coming into connection with, I was talking to Shade Lipka, the CEO of MBT. It's America coming into relationship to one of its original sins. It was founded off this notion of oppression. It was founded off, yes, off of liberation and off of rebellion, but when they pinned the Constitution, they pinned slavery into its fabric, right? Then they, a great American experiment began to have a conversation about this very wildly, very now inhumane as we see it now. It wasn't humane then, but now we know it as inhumane called slavery. They kind of, and ever since then we've done amendments. We have done different kinds of documents to try to adjust that experiment to come into more relationship to the humane and human vibration that we wanted to be in. We wanted to live in. However, this moment is the collision. It's one of those collision moments, similar to that Me Too moment, collision moments of saying that original document that forged what this experiment would look like. It had flaws in it. The roots of it were not baked in some kind of true authentic expression. And so therefore we need to rectify and we need to actually, kind of like if you were to garden, we need to excavate those rotten roots and start to figure out how do we restore the wealth or the beauty or the abundance so that this thing can flourish properly. And it's just quite profound. That's why for me, when you ask me what I've been doing, I say I've been in pause and I've been in witness. I've been trying to really listen because when I think of when shifts truly sometimes happen, they happen when, for me, they happen when I stand still. And I don't come from space in which I was programmed. I come from the space in which I have a conversation with my fear, with my discomfort. Where if I was to move, if I was to go in, there's like all these famous quotes saying where I was most uncomfortable is where I should actually move forward. Like, you know what I mean? Like the sentimentality of that. And that's kind of what folks should be doing right now in my personal opinion. What I'm seeking to do for myself right now is like if I'm uncomfortable around the silence of this moment in my personal life, am I uncomfortable by the actions of this moment that actually provides the opportunity for my growth to happen. That like I moved in the midst of Corona. That was uncomfortable. But that move also rooted me in my growth. That uncomfortable ability of having to move in the midst of a pandemic and the midst of a shutdown. And for the reasons which I was moving because I was a product of a hate crime. So all of those various different things would be uncomfortable. What hate crime? It was my neighbor for six months had been harassing me on the week after the quarantine in New York City. He stalked me for five blocks and he was trying to beat me up. I had to, and the police, but throughout all of it I had the slogan. The only thing that would come up of is that I can only save me. That the police weren't willing to do anything about it until he had actually physically touched me. He had to physically do something to me verbally and chasing me. And because there were no physical scars around it, then I was being told at that moment, could be totally different, but at that moment I was told that that was not liable enough to actually cause charges. And throughout all of this is through corona and through the quarantine and through the shutdown of New York City, I had to figure out how to save myself. And in saving myself, I had to live in the discomfort of whatever the tools that are necessary for my own salvation. And so out of those tools of salvation where for me was to move. And in moving in the midst of the pandemic, in the midst of all of that, and for the reasons why created a mechanism for my growth, living in a new space where I feel more rooted in myself than I did before. Getting access to therapy, which is a deeply needed necessary tool for myself in this moment of a processing the hate crime, but also processing what this moment is. Yeah. The tools of psychological well-being, the tools for emotional well-being, the tools for physical well-being and all of those vortexes, all of those needed tools are things that I were on the precipice of wanting to grasp that, but I wasn't leaning into because I wasn't, I didn't want to allow myself to be in the space of discomfort. Part of that being that it costs a lot of money to have a therapist. I didn't want to have to pay for it. It can cost a lot of money to move in New York City. I didn't want to have to pay, like all of that discomfort, not wanting to be discomforted because I was comfortable in where I was. And where I was wasn't healthy for where I needed to be. I'm so sorry to hear that you're in the middle of all of this where really a victim of a hate crime was a neighbor who harassed you, I think. So you moved. So I moved. I moved. And what I just want to, I just want to thank you for your condolences. What I just want to say is that I might be a victim, but I don't want to live in victimhood. And what I have the opportunity to, but I only reason why I bring it up because I am blessed to have the skill sets and the tools and the resources, aid to move out of the situation where harm was, but also be given the resources to be able to grow from that moment and take again, the learnings, not the trauma, learning how to let the trauma go, but the learnings from that moment to move me forward. And I voiced that only because there is a trauma that's laden inside of this current circumstance that we are now experiencing. There was a trauma laden for black and brown folks, Corona by itself. There was a trauma already there with the amount of people that were being killed, that were being murdered, the amount of people that were dying from this virus. And then on top of that, now you have as a stomach issue, plaring itself up, which is the killing of black and brown folks by cops and also by former cops, right? And all of those different systemic issues on top of that creates another layer of assault, attack and not feeling loved or being taken care of and not feeling safe. Walking down the street, not knowing if when you hear a siren, who that siren is for, what that siren will entail. When I go to sleep, I hear tons of sirens being in Harlem. What does that, what do those sirens mean? Who are those sirens for? Who is in that ambulance? Who is that cop going for? There's a latent potentiality, high potentiality of trauma baked into what is happening in the situation. And I just invite everyone actually, black, brown, whoever, however you might identify, I invite everyone to go on a journey to figure out as Shade gave me a quote of her mom's, Dr. Barbara Antier, where there is love, there is no fear. Going to a love affair with yourself as much as possible that you possibly can imagine something else that she would say, Dr. Antier would say, going into a love affair with yourself as much as possible so that you can figure out ways and mechanisms to cancel out the very palpable relationship that we could have with being fearful in this moment. And fear does have, sometimes it's great perspective, but also it can, it traps, it consumes, it locks. I don't know if anything to add to Guzzi. Okay, so I never, I was like, I can put it up. Oh no, you just always jump in. No, just jump in, just cut me off. Okay, no, it's okay, it's okay. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's really beautiful what you're saying, the idea of like inviting everyone to fall in love with themselves again, quite frankly, and inviting everyone to examine, examine what's going on with themselves because with all the work that people are doing, which I commend, it's also, there just needs to be some reckoning. There needs to be some real reckoning with how, you know, you've walked through the world. And it's true, it's like, how can you be a warrior for other people when, when you haven't yet taken the time to take inventory with, you know, what love it is that you're trying to spread, right? Or take an inventory with what you haven't spread out into the world, right? Take an inventory with what you haven't been doing. And now all of a sudden you want to be a warrior. And, but it's like, but in what ways do you need to hold yourself accountable? You know, it's easy for us to police other people, but it's like, in what ways are we reckoning with maybe our past sins, right? And the past trauma that we haven't looked at upon other people. Yes. And I'm not saying we're all imperfect human beings and we're all not saintly, but I do want to sort of like, I do want to, you know, like you're saying challenge us to really just hold ourselves accountable for what kind of citizens we've been, you know, what kind of human beings we've been to each other, you know? And how are we treating, and also how are we treating ourselves? You know, if you're treating yourself like a workhorse, of course we're going to go, seriously, you're treating yourself like a workhorse. Of course you're now going to be like, how dare you relax? How dare you walk by? How dare you enjoy the day? How dare you, you know, you should be doing this. And it's like, relax my dude, you know? And, you know, and it's like, oh, well, perhaps if we took the time to relax, be quiet, sit in the dark with our thoughts and who we are, we would understand that other people are also like traumatized and unable to function and unable to know how to help or what to help, you know, and what way to help. So yeah, I just think that that idea of, but that all comes from a place of self-examination. All comes from a place of learning how to be still, which is not my forte, you know? Or my idea, you and I are both just like, let's do it. Yeah, well, you know, but it's something that I'm working on and learning how to be so that I can be sort of be the best citizen that I can be and the best artistic citizen for, you know, my fellow artists who I know how I can feel, you know, are suffering and they don't know what to do. They have to do something. And I commend those people who know what to do and can do because this is how they've always thrived. But I also wanna, I wanna challenge that thing of, why do you have to do anything at this moment? Yeah. Because there also feels like this pressing worry that people will stop caring, which is also just, which is valid, which is an absolute valid worry because the way that news cycles and things move so quickly, it's really easy to feel like Black Lives Matter is just a moment. Is just a moment. Though it is our way of life, right? But if it is truly your way of life, then it's like, you don't need to worry about that and you can take care of yourself and then you can't keep pressing on and you can't keep fighting. But I think the thing that I'm finding to be the most poignant is the fervent, we have to do something now. Even though I don't know what that is. And I'm like, do you understand the contradictory of those two sentences? If you don't know what that is, then why do you have to do something now? And if you do know what that is, by all means, go. What can I do to help you with that? Right, what can I do to help you? If you know what that, you know what to do, what can I do to help you? But if you don't know and I don't know, can I take this now? Can I go to see a little bit? Can I take this now and recharge? And then maybe we'll figure out something tomorrow. No, it has to happen now because... No, because this is because the question that you really brought up so beautifully and eloquently is, hey, I love this idea of how am I the best citizen? How am I embodying being the best global citizen and artistic citizen for myself and the people that I love? Like, I love that, I'm really gonna walk away with that and I appreciate, thank you for that offering. But, and you also brought up this very real thing that Shadeh and I always think about at MBT because we say we're turtles, like we're the turtles inside of the race, not the hairs. It is a marathon. That like, the notion, this is a catalytic moment. And yes, but it's a catalytic moment inside of a marathon, inside of a pantheon of other catalytic moments and that there will be another stint to this conversation after this moment. And it's a continuation. It's actually a part of a larger continuum that it's not the start of, it's not the end of, it's a continuation. As long as there is black and brown bodies on this planet, as long as there's breath coming out of black and brown bodies on this planet, the very nature of having to proclaim black lives matter will always be a part of the conversation. And as long as a constitution that was forged under a premise of white supremacy stands, which who knows, it might stand forever. It might stand, you know what I mean? As long as that premise stands, there will always be a need to, for each of us individually to have an assessment of how am I creating a space for black lives to truly matter? That is for Jonathan to ask as a black man to ask how am I making sure that all black lives, not just black male lives, how am I making sure that black women's lives, black trans lives, how am I making sure that black disabled lives, black deaf lives, how am I making sure that the lives that I am not necessarily remotely connected to, how am I making sure that those lives matter? And if I'm not doing the work to address that question, then I'm not being the proper citizen. I am really trying to make sure I rally up this moment to draw flames and to capitalize off of some trauma and pain. Cause that's how I have felt. And I don't know if that's the best route or best use of our energy in this moment in time, that if we speak from our trauma and pain yet again, what are we creating? Yeah. And that's just what I'm- If we glorify that, what are we creating? If we make that the main narrative, that's, I mean, that's the thing that I am not, I don't want to say that I'm struggling with it. It's just the thing that I'm thinking about. Yes. As an artist, it's like, well, then what kind of, you know, as an artist, as a maker of things, what kind of art comes out of this, right? And what kind of art is shared out of this? And all of it is valid if it is black art, right? And, but I, that idea, right, that we talked about in the beginning of dreaming into the future, right? Dreaming, what is, what is, you know, best possible worlds, you know, is it, you know, dreaming our black lives into the future, right? What does it look like? What does it look like? You know, Minneapolis, like I mean, that Minneapolis is making a pledge to defund their police. Police. That is something I not, I could have not dreamed. I didn't have that lens, right? Someone has that lens. And so, if, and how can I contribute to that lens? Yes, yes, yes. Like what can I write or make? Yes, yes, yes. That is not unrealistic. That is not, maybe utopic, whatever. Is utopic not, utopic is no longer unrealistic, right? Because I never imagined that. And like, what can we imagine into the future? And like, what kind of black art that, what does it, what does that look like, right? What does it look like if all of our black, and what does trauma look like if what, you know, I don't know how to describe what I'm trying to say. It's just, what does trauma look like in the future? Like if we keep repeating, you know what I mean? Like what trauma can we actually now get to, right? What can we actually now examine? What other, what other systems can we now examine of blackness, right? Like what other things can we examine than mundane in blackness? Can we examine, can we talk about, can we have plays? Will plays be about therapy? Will plays be about healing? Will plays be, you know, like what other, what other things can we get to besides overt violence? And what other ways can we talk about violence, you know, so that we can get to our healing? You know, can we, what are the diverse ways in which we can talk about our body that I'm, I'm interested in, yeah, I'm just interested in the arts that will be created and in what way it will be created, especially with at the moment, they're being no theater, right? Will there be more, will there be more performance arts, right? Will there be more outside performance arts? Well, like, you know, will there be more galleries where there'll be more concerts, you know what I mean? Will there be more, you know, spontaneous poetry, you know, like it, you know, will there be, in what ways will, you know, when we can reconvene and I don't even mean theater, you know? Is theater not in our, you know, is theater, because theater or what we know as theater cannot convene for what looks like almost a year, you know? Will theater catch up? By the time theater can convene, what will it be? And if theater can't convene in a year, what does performance look like? What does outside performance look like? What does live performance look like? And that's- And then on top of that, no, and then on top of that, I mean, this is why I love you. On top of that, it's just a lot, it's also a conversation of like, will we allow as the quote unquote guard, will we allow for that innovation to show up? Like, that's really what the pause needs to be. Will you allow innovation to show up that actually might ex you out of the conversation? That you have to maybe you producerally stand back and go, well, I don't know how to do this because we don't usually do this. Or- And I'm willing to fund, and I'm willing to fund these people to now be able to do it. Do it. And also, I'm willing not to be imperialistic about it and figure out how do I get compassionate about it? Like, what does compassionate leadership look like now and in the future? And what I love about what you just said, it's just like, you talked about like, I couldn't imagine, I couldn't imagine that. Especially after this, I couldn't imagine Minnesota, like, I couldn't imagine that. But at the same time, the fact that that means there's an energy out there that we all can tap into that can imagine a future that could allow for breath to show up. That could allow for release to show up. That could allow, and then the next step of that conversation of once that is cast into the universe is about accountability. How do we make sure that it's, once we cast it, once we cast what that future looks like, we have the opportunity to cast it in whatever color, whatever shape, whatever wisdom that we have inside of us, we get to manifest. I always say, I'm at my best when I'm completing the sentence and the unfinished work of my ancestors. When I get the privilege to complete the unfinished work that they tilled for, I'm at my best. I'm doing, I'm in my flow, right? And so, but then what does it look like to be held accountable to that connectivity? How do we do that? So as you, Jonathan, in what ways in this present moment, are you, you know, because as someone who's, you know, an artist director of a theater, you know, I mean, you, you know, you're a leader. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. In what ways are you holding yourself accountable for past transgressions, right? Like in what way are you holding, are you holding space for those artists? Are you just going, okay, we'll just keep it moving and I'm keeping myself accountable for, in a way that I did not successfully show up for that artist or artist or whatever, like in what way? Are you holding yourself accountable as a leader? So I'm asking, thank you for that question. I'm asking, I'm Shade and I and the rest of the staff of MBT and the ways in which that we operate, we operate in a very much in a, I kind of, I would say Indigenous practice model where it's co-leadership and it's a communal leadership, not so much a hierarchical leadership, but I will say the way in which that we are seeking to hold ourselves accountable is that we are trying and seeking to especially like we did this program and it opened up my eyes. I never saw it before. To disabled and deaf community, we did a panel and we had ASL interpreters. And I just realized I've caused violence by not ever having that before. I caused division in my programming by never having captions or never having ASL interpreter. There's a huge element of my community that has not had access to our conversations, to what we do because we did not provide that resource. So moving forward, I'm seeking to figure out what does it mean to stretch in that way, right? What does it mean to stretch in that way? How to hold us accountable to having in every digital program we have moving forward, we have someone of ASL who's able to be interpreter of the content, right? How do I fund for that? Because that's money that has to be made. I also asked myself in what ways, like in what ways, I asked myself this in everything that I do where I called them, it's a wrong term. I don't mean, yeah, where are my holes? The term I was gonna use was gonna be not right. Where are the holes that I've had in my curation and my programming? Who have I not served? Who do I feel comfortable serving? I could be transparent. And then some of the fact that I have a huge affinity for working with black women, women in general. I work with a lot of women. I have a lot of women friends. It's kind of easy, right? The challenge for me is working with black men. And I've had to be like, why? As the same gender loving gay black man, like why? Like in what ways, why do I have that conversation? What is about that? And for me, I've had to be intentional sometimes about saying, I'm gonna make sure that black men get this opportunity. I'm gonna be intentional about making sure of looking at my curatorial style. And again, I have holes, I am human, I have faltered in this, but I've tried to make sure that when I look at the pantheon of my curatorial style and where I've given opportunities, that I say, okay, let me sit back and say, where, what, how, what's my pattern? I ask myself what my pattern is. And I think a lot of people might not ask themselves that, but that's what I do. I really try to sit with what's my pattern and I surround myself with people who call me on my bullshit like you. Like you'll call me on my bullshit. Sorry for that. But you'll call me out. You'll be like, brah, brah, brah, brah. I hear you, boom, boom, boom. That's great. T-T-T. But let's be honest. Let's be honest. If you actually were to sit with this, they actually have the right to be this angry. They have the right to feel like this. And I appreciate surrounding myself with people who antagonize me, who frustrate me actually, because through that friction creates diamonds. And if I didn't do anything, and you were there when I first said yes to National Black Theater, I don't do anything right at MBT. I have helped to polish a diamond. I've helped to crystallize. I've helped to form. I've helped to be in conversation with the illumination of a diamond so that we, I, you, me, the future has an inheritance. How was your theater doing at the moment? Tell us a little bit of the situation. How's the theater going? I mean, the theater is going, I would say we're in a space of deep innovation. We're in a space of really assessing and looking at, and like, yes, are we in need of resources? Yes. Are we in need of financial resources? Let me be very clear. Are we in need of financial resources? Yes. Are we in need of capacity building resources? Yes. Are we poised to have all of that matriculate and come our way? Yes. Like, for me, for me, we Shadea and I would say sometimes because we were on a path of producing non-stop all the way up until now. Every other month doing two to three things and then being on- How many openings do you have a year and how big is your staff? Wait, say it again. Say it again. How many shows do you do a year and how big is your staff? So, where do you show? Yeah, yeah, so from February to June we were planning to put on about six or seven events. Two, three productions are part of that. One was a world premiere of a show called Skinfolk that we partnered with Bushwick Star. Another one was a world premiere of a show that we were partnering with the Repertory Theater, St. Louis Repertory Theater down in St. Louis called Dreaming Zenzalé. Another one, it was another production. Oh, we were in conversation with NYU and we were actually were mounting two shows at NYU Death of the Last Black Man and Finding House of Eniquro. Then we had a partnership we were doing with Park Avenue Armory and Guzzi was a part of it called A Hundred Years, A Hundred Women. We also had another partnership with the Schaumburg Center. It was, we were looking at Afrofuturism as a gateway, gateway Afrofuturism. Then we had another partnership with New York Public Library, New York Performance Library and with Carnegie Hall called Can Enable, The Resilience of the Gift. So it was a litany and we were in production at the moment of shutdown with a show called Bayano and they were going to be in a workshop production for another show that we commissioned called Retreat. And then we had a, and then our producer in residence was gonna have her show, their show, TS, their show was going to, a one day event was gonna happen in June. So we were basically on a track of show, show, show, XQ, XQ, XQ, XQ, XQ. It was a race. It was, it was, it was, it was a merit. It was, it was, it was almost like a, although it was beneficial, it was gonna feed us. It was going to be beautiful for our community. It was not getting to the grit and bones of where we as an institution needed to, needed to focus because we're getting ready for a redevelopment of our property. We're getting ready for a re-imagining of our space. We're getting ready for an evolution of the concept of our founder, Dr. Barbara and Tia Forge. And so, and so this pause was the best gift to allow for us to pivot, pivot our inner, our energy towards the fundamental and the foundational premises of the National Black Theater and making sure that we are building it for MBT 2.0. What does it mean to build for the future? As I've been saying, and this moment has allowed us as much of it's been a pause that's, that's like, what am I doing? How am I navigating? As you said so beautifully in Guzzi, a pause of like, am I doing enough? That pause has allowed for Shade and I as leadership with our, with our team and with our staff to be able to now have a conversation about what does it mean to be a cultural destination for Black theater in the nation, in the world? What does it mean to be that destination on a national level? And that's been, that's really where we sit, where we are and what we've been doing. Did I answer your question also in Guzzi around accountability? I was gonna actually dig deeper on that. Oh, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that, that is a, that's, that's beautiful. But I was, I was directly in this age now that I feel like is the accountability age, right? I was directly asked as far as how is it that we are holding ourselves to stand accountable or how are you are to from for past artists that you like specifically looking at the artists that you've worked with? No, seriously. Like, you know, like in what way are you like, oh, that fell short. Oh, oh, that was whatever. Oh, that was not great practice. That actually, you know, like, you know, that's sort of what I was, you know, in this, in this. Yeah, I only asked because I feel like I've been approaching a lot of ways in the way that artists are now, we are now holding our mark, our world, our microcosm, our theater accountable for, for their past, right? The way that we want America to be held to their past. Yes. And so that's, that's, I'm sort of more thinking more as far as that goes. So I can't stand here and say, I've never done something that has not triggered been erroneous or been hurtful to another black artist. I can't sit here and say that I've sat on this pedestal and been pure in all my acts. What I can say is that when the actions have happened, what I has tried to seek to do, and I'm not perfect in my healing in that also, I've tried to address it. I've tried to create a space for dialogue. I try to create a space for my learning, for my own learning. And I try to create a space for, for me to really start to live by the values in which I signed on for National Black Theater, which was about healing, about community organizing, and about really pivoting the modality of access for a black artist. And I'll say those are the three things that I really stand behind for MBT, and I hope that I hope to illuminate, and I hope to, I hope to really create community by. When I have done acts that I can hold and say that I try to create the olive tree branch as much as possible, that might look like me saying an email, saying, can we find some time to talk? That might look like me wanting, me really taking a 100% ownership of where I've done something wrong and me actually expressing, this is where my side of it is, and this is what it means from my side. Sometimes people don't wanna hear the other side. Sometimes people just want me to feel bad. I am not going to, I'm human. I am not gonna sit here and allow for someone to degrade the kind of labor that I have till. That's just, that's just, and that might be, that might come across wrong, but like there is, there is, no one knows the crown in which I hold. Like I don't know someone else's crown. And if we do or not, if someone is able to approach one another from a space of compassion and say that I understand that I did something that was a fault inside of this, this continuum of this relationship of like you trusted me to hold up your work and I tried in this moment from the vantage point that I have, I think everyone has an element of blinders and it only, and it takes compassion, true compassion and this is where I'm talking about intimacy, true compassion to help to awaken someone's holes, to help them like a horse, help them to be able to see wider once again instead of seeing narrow. We are conditioned to see narrow on so many different aspects. And so what I, to answer your question, I try to communicate to the individual. I try to, I try to, I try to address it in my next proceeding. So I try to like, I rally, I rally around people that I trust and I tell them the situation. I ask for counsel. I seek to, I seek to, in addition to that, I invite the individual hopefully into a conversation about it and maybe if someone doesn't feel like I've done that, please reach out to me and I would invite you to do it individually and not try to do it out there in the public like that because I invite you to have a one-on-one connection with me. I invite, I welcome that. I think that's how I do it. And again, I'm not perfect at it and I'm a grow at it and I will also fail at it. Yeah. For both of you as a question, will it be different coming out of this? And do you think what got you into theater, your beliefs and why you prove performances, will it be different? Will something change? Will you do different work in theater? So I'll go ahead and Gazi, go. It's interesting. I think why I got into theater shifted sometime ago. Once the theater actually I made, actually started getting made, you know what I mean? It shifted as far as like, well, what do I wanna do now that I'm here? What is it that I'm actually doing? Because a lot of times playwrights and theater artists who are makers are making things into a void. But once I self-produced and was like, oh, people come if I build it, people do come. Well, what do I want them to leave with? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always been a concept that haven't changed. But I think the question of what do I want them to leave with has changed. And I'm not sure yet, no. I'm not sure anymore, you know, what I want them to leave with or if they will or if I can get them to leave with or if I can get them to come. But for me, it has been a big, it's more of a zeroing in and being specific about does this heal? Does this provide the beginning to heal, right? Will people leave this? Sometimes it's like with a smile on their face or not just with a thought, but will they really, will they stay with them for days in a way that will help them? I say. You know, that will crack them open, but and not just crack them open in that, you know, they're gonna be incapacitated for a couple of days, but maybe, you know, and in what other ways can eyes protect them? You know, if the play cracks them open, then what's the programming in talkbacks that, I mean, I literally have been looking at this whole time and being like, you know, I mean, I have to joke about this. I say, man, if people don't need your unifying breath, the right now, like the way people used to joke, like Jonathan doesn't think of the end of every single show. If you say for a talkback, you do a talkback after every single show and he doesn't think of the unifying breath. And I know we used to joke about that, but I'm like, yo, if people don't need a unifying breath after now, I don't know what they need. And so the idea from like what I am constantly thinking about now is, oh yeah, like how can I really filter discussion around the play? You know what I mean? And healing around the play, if it is a heart opener, you know, some people are not prepared to have their hearts open. Some people are just prepared to sit and watch. And the more I do work and the more that I sort of realize that that is actually what I'm forcing people to do, the more I'm like, well, what can I do for the people who aren't prepared for that? For the person who sits in their seats for 20 minutes and they don't know what to do after they've just cried for an hour and a half. You know, what can I do for them if I'm just a playwright? And what kind of, you know, so for me, it's like, how can I more holistically think about what we're doing, realizing that I'm not okay, right? And that we're all actually just not okay. And so like, what can I do now with the things that I make to make us okay, you know? And like, and how can I attack that on all sides, not just with writing a play? I will say, A, a blift, love my sister, a blift. I will say from my vantage point, in addition to what Nguzi said, I started, I made a deliberate choice to invest and be a participant and be a family member in the National Black Theater, which was to create a home, create a home for black artists. I felt like when I left NYU, I didn't have a home and this moment has only deepened that battle cry that I had or that summoning or that calling that I had leaned into when I initially said yes to partnering with Shadeh Lithkat at National Black Theater to help uplift Dr. Barbara Antier's vision with the rest of the staff at MBT, so for me, I am really clear that in this moment, I have to deepen my blinders. Like I have to deepen where my blinders are so that I can actually expand my POV and actually hold more space. I now have to learn how to hold more space. If I didn't think I needed to, I have to do it now. I have to hold more and more space because the thing to what Nguzi is saying that's so true is that it's the content, but also the experience itself is going to radically shape, shift and move people in a different way. The very notion of when we're able to be back in a so quote unquote theatrical space is going to be a unnerving sensibility because we are going to be connected to each other in an enclosed space for a durational period of time and we have been told that that's a deadly act. So the people who want to do that, they are courageous up to the wild zoo, especially when we first start doing this thing. Even when there's a vaccine, that's a courageous act. And so the notion of the people who hold space like National Black Theater, who occupy and produce the space, we have to be able and prepared to hold the grief, the joy, the exhilaration, the frustration, the sadness, the spectrum of emotion that will bubble up to the surface that really has nothing to do with what's happening on the stage actually, has everything to do with what's happening with them individually because they haven't been that close in proximity to another individual in such an enclosed space that they don't know. That they haven't embedded, that they don't know where the last person that they talked to or the last place that they ate or that they don't know, they don't know any of that. They trust, now the space has radical trust and laden inside of it that it didn't necessarily have before, has a radical trust. They have to trust that the performers have been well taken care of and that they are not bringing a harmful agent inside the room and you have to trust that the community that's come together is not bringing a harmful agent inside the room either. And that's a new kind of model that we have never had to really think about before and it's in a real, real conscious way. It's interesting to say to something what we have thought about in a conscious way and now it's a really a time to think, well, maybe we should be doing what we've been thinking about if we don't do it now, whenever do you think also mostly that the forums, I think traditionally we have the play but there's also site-specific work, monologues, their radio plays. We hear from Indonesia, they audience members, they commission plays, people send out building boxes of puppets and then they write together, there is in France actors for the theater, the ideal actors on the telephone, people call them up, tell them their life and they're what they think about and they create a monologue for them or a poetry, they give them a poem to think about. And there are so many ways that I be spoke to Ralph Pina from the Mayi Theories is I'm gonna rebuild my little theater into a TV studio so for the next year we can do something. So where do you see things will be going and is something up in the air what you guys are participating in, experimenting? I would just say that MBT, and Gazi is one of the commission artists, whoo! So MBT in the spirit of what's happening with the election is actually commissioning black women artists from trans to cis to non-binary, black women artists to create PSAs for the election, artistic creative responses to prepare our community to really know what's happening with the election. It's using Shirley Chisholm's infamous quote, unbossed and unbought, and utilizing that kinetic reclaiming our vote that's the name of the series and we'll be announcing it'll be, well, I'm announcing I guess now, but I'm not fully announcing it, but that's how we're addressing it. We're addressing it by thinking about what a civic engagement look like and how do we give, and how do we actually, and our civic engagement as an institution is not only in how do we create works that have civic duties a part of it, part of its properties, but also how do we make sure that we hire as many individual independent artists as possible and trying to make sure that we can feed as, with the loaves that we have, feed as many people with the loaves that we have. Yeah, I think for me, I've made a lot of just, I also write, I also write in the TV and the film space. So I've sort of been taking a break from that. I've written my first monologue play. I don't know in what context that will be made or produced. It was made to be a play, but it was originally made as a video for the 24 hour plays and I've now extended that into a full 30 page work. And so I am very much in the headspace of self-production now and going, oh, well, what does this look like now that, right now there is no theater. We can just say it, it's mournful. That's what it is. And so it's looking like, well, maybe we film it. Maybe we do it somewhere and we invite six people to see it and film it. Yeah, so now at the moment as a playwright, it's figuring out if I feel like producing theater, going back to my roots of self-production and gathering friends and doing something small but big. Yeah. And she's a G at it, just want to say, just want to uplift that. This homie right here is a G at self-production. She did this thing called Good Grief. If you don't know about it, check it out. And homie is well-skilled. From Good Grief to now Africa, well-skilled, well-skilled. Thank you. No, I think this is important advice to also to focus on healing, to have discussions around plays, to really think through what our audience is living with. Does it has to happen in their space or can it be outside? And as you say, get together with a small group of friends and you produce something small like in a big way. Perhaps this will be this thing, they will be small productions. Everyone who loves theater, we love the closeness of small spaces. People, theater makers like Kotowski, never wanted to have more than 30 people in a room anyway. When he came to New York, they said, come to Garnier Hall. You're such a success. He said, you don't understand. Yeah. My theater is about, it's not possible to say about so many people would come and see it. And he said, no, this is not possible. So he had to find something. Like I said, Peter Brooke helped him to find it. And do you think, given the situation now, do you have a few things that will change? Do you think this, what's happened now with George Floyd, the murder people are? Is this a moment, is they cinema, the tipping point? Do you feel this is a moment of real change? I want to use the lovely thing that Nguzi said. It's a moment of real awakening. I think there's an awakening that's happening. And the awakening creates change. Then yes, I think that there is a moment of change. What is real? I think I challenged that word of what real change means when you say real change. Those things are different, yeah. Well, no, no, no, I only challenged that because that's a moniker from my vantage point of like when we say black excellence, well, why does someone have to be black excellence? Why can't they just be black? Like what, why do we have to put on this other very taxing layer called excellent? And why do we have to put on this very taxing layer called real? Because real is objective, to be very honest. What you consider real change is different from what I might consider real change. And so then therefore we never actually create change because we're trying to figure out what real is versus saying, let's just change. And whatever the degree of change that you do creates an awakening. And that awakening is what is necessary for your progress. And ultimately what will help to support my progress. And I think that we as a society just have to be very careful in this moment of like having the conversation that cause I think a lot of people are starting to realize how burning the building has been, how on fire the building has been because it's always been on fire. But now people are starting to realize, oh, this shit is really on fire. And she's like, nah, it's always been on fire. You just had privilege to be further away from the flames. And you considered it to be like a fireplace fire while other communities were actually in that fireplace burning. So like you're just having a different degree to the embers, the flames that are happening right now. And so I just think that as we march, as we move forward, as we navigate through a space of moving forward in this society, I just think that we have to really check and have a conversation with, how are we demonstrating and appropriating still Western slash white supremacist language inside of how we document where progress looks like, how progress looks. And so when we say something like real change or we say like black excellence, we are saying that it has to live beyond its essence of breathing, its essence of being in order to be considered propped up as something of value. When that value is latent in anyone's ability to wake up as what Nguzi said, make the choice to wake up. The choice to wake up is your inherent right to the wealth that this world has to offer. Your choice to, you making that choice to do that. And so I do think this is a moment of awakening. And I do think this is a moment of deep awakening. And I hope and I think with that awakening for black people especially, if we're talking in the art sector, that there's going to be more self-thinking. And with that thought of what is good for me, what is good for my healing, that they will not allow for themselves to be disrespected when they walk into spaces. That's my hope, they will walk into spaces and they will not compromise themselves for the carrot. That is whatever the carrot looks like to them. So I do think that there is a shift happening in that. And I think that that will continue because with more people who take themselves to who take their worth into value and who value themselves, they will walk into spaces wider and they will take up more space and they will not allow for anyone to take their space. They will not allow anyone to hijack their work. They will allow, they will demand the care that they need to take care of their work. They will demand that that will be acquired if you ask for a black artist to be in your space. Hopefully that black artist will now demand that they be taken care of. And if that PWI does not know how to take care of that space, they will hopefully take some space back. They will hopefully move back and provide people who can actually take up, who can actually hold space for that black artist. That's the need, the hope, the demand that I have for these institutions moving forward. That if this is about care, not just for the audience, but for the artist, in what way are you, are all of us, if we are all institutions, in what way are we being best citizens? If you've taken a black artist, how are you being the best citizen for that artist? Is your job, as Jonathan was saying, to be imperious, listically giving your notes on things that you don't understand? Or is your job now to provide the best black artists or the best artists, whatever that are always thinking about care to create space for that artist? Is that artist now walking in and knowing what they deserve, what they are owed, what they demand, what they need, with this, with thinking of the global, if theater is the microcosm for the world, is this black artist now going, how can I walk into this space that I am taking care of? Yeah. So that I can now take care of the audience and take care of other people. Yeah. So I, and how do I know that I am worth something, that I am valued, that my work is worth something, that it will cause this butterfly effect, right? This ripple, right? If we're going to circle back to everyone's language, right? How can I, how can I start from here and then know that my play is important for the moment my play is the thing, you know, and have it not be about the New York Times, quite frankly, and all those things. Like how do, how does that now, you know, how do reviews change? I don't think that will, I don't think they will. But, you know. No, I think it will. I think it actually will, with the, with the fire. How do reviews change? How do, how do we talk about, how does that, how do we talk about this now? How do we talk about what we're doing now? How do we, how can you go back to how you talked about plays after the time that we're in? Shame on you. Good luck, good luck going back to the old way because you will feel like, you will look like a fossil. It is a thing of old now, right? It's a thing of old. And so I'm excited for this thing that I have not yet imagined what it looks like. I'm not, I've not yet imagined what this play looks like, the first play that goes up in New York, or whatever, I've not yet imagined, even if it's an old play, I have not yet imagined how that artistic practice now will hold in this new world. But I'm excited. Yeah. And if one listens, I don't know if you saw that Griffin Matthews, Instagram post on the Broadway's racist and his more or less open attack on Day in Paula's gives you an idea and how that feels like. And we're coming close up to the end again, really, really, thank you for sharing and in that raw moment where we all are in. What advice do you give to artists, maybe emerging artists, but also fellow artists in the times of the street protests in the times of Corona and times of an intolerable president in times of this high unemployment? Where does art come in and what can and should artists do? What do we have to focus on now and this time we? So I just wanna say that to all artists, your art never stopped. Art was never, was never, was never anything that stopped. Culture never stopped in the midst of this pandemic. Culture just had a different conversation with how it creates itself, how it expresses itself. But artists have been laboring and telling the ground while many other elements of our society have put a pause on how they operate. So to artists, I wanna say with deep compassion, thank you. Thank you for not stopping, for saying yes when an invitation came out, saying yes to supporting the communication that we as institution holders can have with our community. And I would just say that hold as accountable as institution holders to making sure that we take care of you as the best we possibly can. Whatever that means, however we can do it, I think it's very important that as we as, especially in New York City, as we think about what recovery looks like, what reopening looks like, we have a deep conversation about how do we ensure the foundation for artists, particularly black artists, to be able to stay inside the city if they should choose that they want to and also be able to do their work from a space of equitable practice and compensation. Understanding that the system has been broken and the system hasn't actually allowed for people to be fully taken care of, what does it mean now to reimagine it? So my first thing is to say thank you to all artists, individual and a part of administration, but thank you to all artists for continuing to build culture and to address culture even in a time when we were asked not to do anything, you still created and created a resilient repository of innovation, so thank you, and to hold us accountable, hold us as institution builders, hold us as a community accountable for the ways in which that we will need to be a part of your healing, but also ability for you to express. Yeah. Yeah, I think I just want to say fellow artists, right? Put everyone's feet to the fire, but while we're putting our feet to the fire, we also have to think about what it is that we actually want and what it is that we're actually doing. You had brought out Griffin Matthews, and so I just want to say that I want to, not defend, but I want to clarify that that was not about an open attack on Diana Paulus, I want to be clear that this was also talking about Kevin McCollum, who's a producer, second stage, which is the producing body and the institution, that it was an open attack on the way that artists cannot really collaborate within a commercial space, and the way that artists have to constantly submit to the hierarchical white supremacy standard. I want to be really clear about that, and so I really want to talk to us as artists when we say yes, what is it? What are we saying yes to, right? Producers, you have to start thinking about yourselves as artists as well. Second stage, you are a producing body. Directors, you are producing and you have a responsibility as well. If we are truly collaborators in this, right? If we are truly trying to all make this play, the show, this musical happen, right? Whether the, even if the goal is just freaking money, right? How are we collaborating to really make this happen, right? He was calling out the institution, you know, and I want to be clear that I want to make sure that Diana Paul is as the woman is not just a scapegoat for that event, right? That is a microcosm of the problem with commercial theater. Right? It's easy to name a scapegoat and it's easy to name a scapegoat. The name of scapegoat and use her as that, but there are multiple, like, but he mentioned multiple infractions and multiple people and the institution that held up that allowed for that to happen, right? And there are multiple institutions and multiple people that are allowing this to happen for a black artist to enter into a space that allows them to compromise their entire work and have to take it back. And some people don't even get their art back, right? Some people don't even get to be in this space to have that even confrontation, right? Because they have to, you know, there are artists, there are theater artists and black artists today who have always been calling out people, who have always been holding people accountable, who are blacklisted, right? So I also want us to reach back to some of those artists so that we realize there are the Colin Kaepernick's of theater who we no longer work with in the New York space. Yes, yes, yes. And so I want us to also go back and call back those directors and those playwrights and those actors and go, you were right. And what does reconciliation look like, right? And so for me, it's like, I want us to remember that there have been people fighting for us since before we knew that fighting was okay, right? So now that fighting is cute, now that fighting is getting you in a playbill article, right, I want us to reach back to the people like, oh, and this person too. So I want us to also be holding ourselves accountable. Before you call out that person or after you call out that person. Either or. Either or, you got to do what you got to do. What I want us to think about, what it is that we really want, what it is that we're really doing. And also what system are we actually participating in? Because I think that you brought up a really great point about the system and that the system that we're participating in. And then this is even for anyone who's a part of the nonprofit structure, you're talking about a system that was built off of excess wealth from slavery. Like you're talking about a system that is steeped out of excess wealth. And the excess wealth, the foundation of the excess wealth came from slavery. And so when we talk about what we're participating in, when we talk about, and then what does it mean to create an oasis inside of that system? What does it mean to be knowledgeable about how that system needs to be utilized for your benefit and for your good and versus you just saying yes to every opportunity that comes your way. To your point, and having the knowledge of like, what does it actually mean to participate? And what does participation look like? And then holding people accountable to what does it mean to say, what does it mean for my yes to be at the table? For my yes to be at the table, this is what it means because this is the kind of reconciliation, reparations. This is the kind of articulation that needs to happen for my healing, which I believe all art can be and is to be at the center. Yeah, this is important and lots and lots to think about and to think about that there is a system. So much right now in our time is create an app, go to therapy, go to the fitness studio, make your life better. But there are systems, we live in their structures and their forms over centuries. And I think the corona crisis exposed also in different countries to all the artists we speak with, there are better ways to deal with things than their worst ways. And it depends on by the government, by the people who represent us. But there's also a way how art is produced and there are also ways to produce great art and it seems to be that ways where artists are also in charge where they are making decisions and it's not part of a commercial structure or board members just who often don't even meet artists in institutions where they are. That there are ways to produce art that really serve the community and that we need to have an access to healthcare, education and the arts and how that is matters. So really, thank you, I think, I know it's a moment in time we could talk much more we should. It's a big conversation as you pointed out actually a very long one that has been there for centuries and that we are taking the work up from our ancestors or people who as you say before us and that to participate in democracy and art is a participatory engagement, a social engagement. We really have to do that. We are not consumers. So I really would like to thank both of you for sharing that moment. Tomorrow we have James S. Krebs and Tamela Woodard. I'm sure you know. Yes, we do. Yeah, on Wednesday we have a philosopher here, Jean-Luc Nancy, who is casually from France who has thought about you also what about public space, the we and I, things you talked about and also what is art for? Why do we need art? And I think as you said if we don't need it now when do we need it ever? I do believe it has to make and it always made a great, great contribution in the complex history and the fight for freedom and liberties. And Nitro Smith can be with us this week. And so we have Avoya Timpo with us, a great New York director. I'm also- Avoya is my collaborator. Hi! He's my collaborator. And then Woody King is with us who over 50 years has tried to run a theater, Black Theater. He's the king. And to hear from him, what does that mean? How does he see where we are now? And I think this will be an important week of listening and discussing again. Thank you, thank you both for sharing and for taking the time and listening to us. Thank you for howl round, for Thea and Vijay and Travis for being with us in my team, Andy and Sanyang for making this happen. So I'm really a lot of things to think about. So really thank you for sharing and this is an ongoing discussion. And Travis, I hope you will be also back to the Seagull soon and mostly so hope to meet you too. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, really appreciate it.