 Transitional Justice here on a Monday. I'm Jay Fidel and this is Annie Linden. We'll talk about transitional justice In in Afghanistan where you may recall that we haven't done anything much to stop it And so there's a big question about what Annie Linden can or should do to investigate You know the atrocities Especially the gender atrocities that are going on in Afghanistan while we speak well welcome to the show Annie nice to have you here. Thank you so much for having me Jay So let's learn a little about you. You're Finnish and you're in Amsterdam and you went to school in Britain So all of that means you're sort of pan European person. You probably speak four languages. Am I right? Yes, actually Yeah, I so I am originally from Finland where we also speak Swedish and Yeah, I've studied English since third grade and I've also I speak Spanish because I've lived in in Mexico and in Colombia and They yeah, they've been great experiences and I'm really grateful for the opportunities that I'm I admire you for that I'm actually envious. I'm envious of everyone in your generation who who goes beyond, you know And certainly anybody in PEJ goes beyond so tell us how you get connected with project expedite justice right here from Kona in Hawaii so I study my master's at the University of Amsterdam right now and Someone who is alumni of the same program that I'm doing now he works at PEJ and He got in contact with our program and they asked for Interns and I found I saw that they were looking for case management intern. That was like this looks like a good good opportunity to To dive into and also in African context because that's something that I haven't been Researching much yet because I've been more focused on Latin America or Middle East So it's been a great experience. Yeah So transitional justice war crimes war crime investigations Prosecutions atrocities war criminals all that it's a it's an interesting world It's a I must say just being an outsider and looking in it's a very exciting stimulating You know altruistic way to spend your time Why that? Why did you make that decision, honey? I I believe I've always been interested in in human rights and seeing how the world works and how the international system in itself works So in my in my undergraduate degree I did international relations in the UK and then I I From there. I I realized that I was very much into also the legal framework and how the laws Work in the international arena. So now that I'm doing international criminal law as my master's I I've gained a pretty cool how to say view on how international justice works and then Then into transitional justice I During my time in Colombia. I studied transitional justice And I had the opportunity to work with an indigenous community and their political participation supporting their process and It just it sparked me that I this is something that I want to do and work with communities and bettering the world and How to say it be a part of the Good well you you're part of something that I I have observed in Project expedite justice. It's a global phenomenon of sort of a new generation International generation Do you think your generation will actually make a difference? Oh? Absolutely Absolutely, I Think it's especially with Now that the age of social media and how we're more connected Through the internet. I think this has a massive impact on Not only on on my generation, but everyone can be everyone is connected So especially like with the Rise of technology and how the developments in in that area will have a massive impact on developing the laws and and mechanisms for For people to access justice as well and to gather evidence for Specific crimes and yeah So if I if I went around Europe, you know from east to west Exclude Russia for this discussion If I if I went around Europe, would I find people like you? There if I went around Latin America, particularly Colombia, would I find people like you there? I mean is this something which you can find? People who are a simpatico You know in the in these places I'm excluding the US because I I really don't think the US is in the same place Your generation the generation we're talking about it is mostly Europe Latin America, and I suppose Africa I mean of yeah, of course I have I think We are everywhere Okay, it's it's not just that the only in Europe or only in these these in that country people work for these things there I everywhere where I Gone and now where I've lived I connected with people who work in human rights and in the field of law and share the passion That that I I have as well. Mm-hmm. So do you think you'll be committed to this to your whole life? Oh Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well good. I'm happy to hear that because you're doing you're doing our work for us, honey You are representing all of us To make a better world. So what what is your master's thesis about? My master's thesis is on image-based sexual violence in on conflict So color clearly known as revenge porn So basically when sexual violence happens in wartime when that is filmed and put online how we can How we can criminalize this act because once you put something online it stays there What does that mean it does it help to put it online to publicize it? What do you mean? Does it help the effort to stop? gender violence to put it online oh Oh, I Don't I don't believe that it I mean that is To to feel first of all to film that These crimes and then distribute it online. This is a sort of Re-victimizes the victim survivor Change the question honey the prosecutions the trials Convictions You know the punishments the deterrence the action that you are taking to stop Gender crimes Does that help if you put it online if you publicize it? I mean it is it works as evidence of course but as for the victims privacy it's not Not ideal Understand that we'd want to violate anybody's privacy, but we we want to make it known that this happens Yeah, of course, I believe I believe there is there are ways to to Raise awareness on this however on the on filming these acts is I don't think it's the right way to You know, I've asked a lot of people from PJ and people who involved in human rights whether they think that Through the efforts of PJ and other NGOs around the world There is a reduction of Violations of human rights going on our atrocities decreasing or are they increasing as we speak well I believe they're Excuse me atrocities, I think they keep happening like we might not Know about it, but yeah with the technology. Yeah, I we do We are more aware of them, but it is Difficult to say whether or not they are decreasing or increasing because a Trot atrocities will always happen That's I'd like to catch you on that atrocities are always happening, you know and gender atrocities are always happening from Time immemorial It's almost built into the human condition that there will be You know gender atrocities rape and abuse including marital abuse and so How can we how can we reduce that? It's my right to say that it's everywhere in the world In my right to say there's no place exempt and there's no body exempt. No society is exempt from this So that you can find really horrendous things taking place everywhere How in a larger sense, how can we stop that? First of all, I believe we we have to raise awareness and we need We need people to take this seriously because In history and with women's rights movements are Our fear has not been taken seriously and our our suffering has not been taken seriously And I I think we're seeing it. We're seeing a change In people's attitudes that hey, this is actually real So I I think we need yeah, we need to raise awareness and educate people and bring these atrocities into light So if the atrocities happen in the context of a war That makes them somehow more noticeable More important to to To advise the world about it. I mean and I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time on this but You know in Ukraine, mr. Putin's army seems to be doing You know a lot of rape Just as the Russian army did when it crossed Poland Back in the 1945-44-45. There was a lot of a lot of what do I call it gender crimes? That sounds like such a A an understated word gender crimes But and there's been a lot of literature about that And I you know, I know, you know How much notice should we take of what putin and putin's army is doing in terms of these Crimes of a rape. I Mean it is horrendous absolutely horrendous It's it's just something I believe People just have been shocked that it's happening in the context of Europe However, I do I do see a sense of People seem to put more importance on this because it happens in the context of Europe. However, where was all this talk? What's happening to Like everywhere else in the world It's like of course, it's important that we talk about of course It's important that we talk about Ukraine, but and I love the solidarity that people show in hosting hosting refugees and Showing just the support To Ukrainians Yeah Let's let's go to Afghanistan because that's what we should cover today I are you working specifically on Human rights violations on gender gender atrocities in Afghanistan What what drives PJ to be concerned about Afghanistan right now? So I PJ I've not worked specifically on Afghanistan but I I wrote my undergraduate thesis on The US intervention in Afghanistan post 9 11 and how this intervention was framed as a With the humanitarian rhetoric to save the Afghan woman from the Taliban so I'm My personal interest has been in the Middle East and Latin America as well, but for my thesis I wanted to focus on specifically on this gendered narrative and how This mask masculine military action was justified to save the victimized Afghan woman when When it was How to say when Bush was not known as a feminist Supporter, let's say like that So this is this is what sparked my interest. Why? Why was this intervention? Framed like this when the president wasn't even in Elected for his feminist stance whatsoever. So this counterterrorism Women's rights Rhetoric was and an interesting Coin so I wanted to investigate it more. Well, they ask you when the US, you know Took over in Afghanistan one one would assume that the American presence would not permit That kind of abuse that Taliban was engaging in before And they you know, they took the power away from the Taliban And they said you will you will now behave yourself visa be women women can go to school have reasonable lives Then you know, they they're they're elevated and we are going to work hard And I don't know whether we had the kind of success we hoped for Bush or no Bush But we did achieve some success there and women were elevated during the wasn't 20 years that we we were there and we may have failed in other ways and we certainly failed in Keeping the Taliban out of power But we did improve the lot for women Why why then Why then to the Taliban bring it right back again is It part of the culture is it part of the religion that when they come back And this is so interesting to me when they come back they come back as a military operation They come back with guns They take over in short shrift and there's all kinds of you know history we can talk about there But but you mentioned a moment ago that when you have this kind of What's the word this this this macho? Warlike You know weapon laden Violent or at least threat of violence takeover in Afghanistan. It brings Um The the gender abuse right back like a like a rubber band bang And it's all right back and and they promise us they you know, they make public statements to the world They're not going to do that, but we are clearly seeing the Taliban is right back where it was Why is that? Is that is that a matter of the the Afghan culture that just could happen? I believe that in the 2020 peace agreement between the US and the Taliban they They made quite a few mistakes with trusting that Taliban would do Everything that they promised and by by giving them Everything that they basically wanted Undermined the Afghan government itself, so I believe them The The peace process itself was Overall during during the the two decades it was I Believe the US and like the the West wanted Afghanistan to be Something that they imagine Afghanistan to be on paper But it doesn't exist so for The Western world going to another country, which is already multi-ethnic very polarized society and Telling them. Okay. This is what we think pieces. This is what we think human rights is. This is how women Should be in a society it It just doesn't work like that it's I believe it's it's quite naive to It's either like yeah naive to think that you can go into another country Do an intervention like that and then say that this is how you're going to be it's just of course the the state the country has their own culture and their own Differences and with the with the rhetoric on Including women in In politics like in paper, it's incredible, but how you go about it and nuts Familiarizing yourself enough about The local context and the tribal differences, especially in Afghanistan the tribal differences in the country are massive and the Loyalty between women is not gender based. It's more class based. It's more tribal based Ethnic based So when like of course they were Women were included in The in in politics and they're they got education and health care But I think it stems Or it boils down to the tribal differences in the country because there was already before this This Common this mistrust in in the government and As the country is polarized there are class differences. So when when you include some women in politics and Some women in this and that it's it's often the political elite But then then Other communities might feel that they are still marginalized and it's rather tokenistic innocence So could could the United States have done a better job in the 20 years to to raise women up to You know incorporate them into the society properly And could the United States have done a better job I think you're saying that it could have done a better job in the peace agreement To try to leave leave Afghanistan and in better condition vis-à-vis You know the status of women What what could we have done both during that 20-year period and the peace agreement? To avoid the result we are having now That's a great question I Would say I would say that the US should have included more of the ordinary Afghan voice in the in the peace talks and in in in the inclusion of Political participation in general Because there was this mistrust already before before 9-11 happened before the Invasion happened. There was Afghanistan was already polarized So I think including more ordinary people rather than the political elite and going and actually getting to know What the society was like and not how it's all to be So now we're not there anymore And we have very little to do with the place that I'm not I don't think we have diplomatic Connections with them we go through agency arrangements. We we don't have anybody on the ground at all And and but we hear through project expedite justice and other NGOs Human rights organizations that there are violations of women's rights And women's human rights in in Afghanistan So it strikes me that this is a very hard thing for us to do a to find out what's going on B to identify, you know, the people and the process is involved and and you know actually investigate and you know You know violations of those rights and prosecute those rights. We are we have shut ourselves out of it And so I ask you, you know, what can project expedite justice do? What can the United States do? What can Western Europe do? What can anybody do? And in order to in order to improve the lot of women In Afghanistan today where we're the violation of women's rights in Afghanistan on a central part of its government It's it's a core point of the way it is governed by the Taliban I mean, it's this this is what they do. What can we do to stop that? That is a good question. It's It is always I don't know. I think I I Often go back to like what we could have done and what we should have done but In the end does it does it help? No, no, we have to fashion a strategy now Yeah, we have to do what we can do. I mean it's Afghanistan is not the only place. There are other countries that have similar Problems and a question is how can you investigate war crimes that are behind a curtain that way? How can you prosecute people who you can't you know, you can't arrest? You can't bring them to justice. You can't get them in front of the International Criminal Court of Justice You can't you they never leave the country You're not going to get the local Judiciary to do anything the local government doesn't care a matter of fact It's perfectly fine with what's going on. It's a way that the local government Enhances its own power. I would say as an outsider So what what can you do on it? Give me a a course of action Yeah, I I believe We have we have to keep pressuring governments and international organizations And instead of For example, the UN just condemning what's happening We're actually doing something So I believe it's NGOs like PJ and other organizations that Do the work and the power of so we should should not underestimate the power of social media and how we can put spread awareness and Do activism From our home directly Well, can people can women in Afghanistan and Kabul for example, can they report these crimes out on the internet? Is there a way to electronically communicate? What they would like to tell us and then we could of course raise Global awareness about that if we knew if we had that information Is there a way that information can get out of Afghanistan is getting out of Afghanistan? There are women's organizations in in Afghanistan. So yes Yeah the other thing I wanted to ask you about is you know other countries and of course project expedite justice and other NGOs do have a certain amount of leverage and Not only by information, but by sanctions By saying, you know, oh We could give you money. We could give you support of one kind or another or not and This happened right after the United States left, I don't know what happened, you know more recently, but If you want us to show you favor to support you to help you in one way or another or many ways We could and we will what you've got to stop doing this to women Was that successful could it be successful now I'm sorry If I said for example We have we have some of your frozen assets like Russia like the sanctions and we will turn that over to you We could give you aid we could give you Billions of dollars a we know we know your economy is on its back We know your children are starving. We could help you but we need commitment from you We need you to stop the atrocities Then we will help you. Has that been successful. Could it be successful as then is any country or organization done that To do that kind of transaction that kind of deal. I mean, yeah with late Taliban is now that they are empowered they do struggle with the Financial aspect of the economic aspects And It I Don't I'm not really sure How that would happen and Because in order to I don't know in order to do that they you would have to recognize them as well and and Getting into that sort of like a diplomatic Establish in deep that sort of diplomatic Relations would bring them legitimate legitimacy as well, but I I also think with these Talks that Taliban would Have with with other states is Taliban already also struggles with internal Power struggle and the leadership and I don't know how How they would like who would make the decision who Who would negotiate because there's already some Terrible in times within Them because some some branches of Taliban feel that they don't have enough power and then Some others make the decisions so then How would they even get to these Negotiations, but yeah, they Yeah, the age isn't it's an interesting question because they're the people are suffering and they They're they're in a economical crisis. You know, it could be they don't care They don't care about the people suffering They just you know, we we see that in other countries and there are some people in the United States feel that way It doesn't matter how the people are doing the important thing is to stay in power. It's the you know It's the mark of autocracy We don't we you know that I and I suspect there must be some of that Especially when you say that their government is not functioning very well But here's here's one last question and I realize that this is you know, political or geopolitical question As much as it is a human rights question, but it you know, the Taliban is Corrosive it's toxic the Taliban, you know has never been good at building a society They may you know provide some Some benefit to some people but only for an obviously manipulative reason In larger sense, they they can't run a government. They can't run a country They never have been able to do it and they're not able to do it now even though They ostensibly have the power to do it and they don't have the skill And they don't have the knowledge and their their people are not oriented to do that So the question I put to you is Is the Taliban With this war against women, that's what we have here A war against women is the Taliban sustainable Is it is it going to be able to stay in power or is it going to collapse? Ultimately as a way to govern afghanistan As it seems to me that that possibility logically Exists and it's one we ought to be watching. What do you think? I don't think they're sustainable Precisely because they have this power Internal power struggle just they they don't have this established hierarchy and they You you can't function as A state or an organization when there's too many people hungry for Power and wanting to be the ones to make decisions. So they don't have this internal cohesion. So I don't think They can survive but Yeah, I guess you never know Well, I think you know, it's interesting that you know pj Is concerned about afghanistan and we all are But what I think what is interesting and what is interesting in your work? Is that in a in a strange way afghanistan is an exemplar? It's a closed state It's a state at war with its own people It's a state with a with a culture that divides Um, it's a state that is probably in the long term not sustainable even in the intermediate term Um, and it's not the only one And I think it's a learning experience. Don't you know, it's a learning experience for us The ones who are looking at it and studying it and trying to figure out how to help those who are inside it You know the ordinary people men and women who want to lead a reasonable life in in today's world That we need to learn From the afghanistan experience So that we can apply those lessons to other countries That are similarly closed countries closed states with the revelations of human rights going on inside Uh, don't you agree? Isn't this part of the examination that that project expedite justice and other human rights? NGOs should be making to carry those lessons elsewhere Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely it's um history tends to repeat itself as We've seen now with afghanistan as well um But yes, I I hundred percent agree Well, thank you, honey, honey linden I've finished lady educated in england and living in amsterdam even as we speak Uh and concerned with human rights all over the world including Latin america, africa Europe and certainly in the middle east. Uh, thank you so much, annie. We really appreciate this discussion with you Thank you so much for having me Aloha Thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo You can also follow us on facebook instagram twitter and linked in and donate to us at thinktech hawaii dot com Mahalo