 Daily Tech News show is made possible by you, our listeners, thanks to all of you, including Scott Hepburn, Jeff Wilkes, Paley Glendale, our new patron, Mike, everyone. Welcome in my game. And oh my gosh, it was Harriet's birthday yesterday. How did we miss that? So sorry, Harriet. Happy birthday. Be happy birthday. On this episode of DTNS, the Titans of Tech, Sam Altman and Elon Musk go to court over how open open AI should be. Should you pay Spotify to get audio books? And Jason Howell from AI Inside talks about the ethics of licensing user data for training generative models. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, St. David's Day, March 1st, 2024. In Los Angeles, I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Animal House, I'm Sarah Lane. And the other other tech titan of Petaluma. I'm Jason Howell. Drawing the top tech stories. In Cleveland, I'm Len Peralta. And on the show is producer Roger Cheng. I couldn't find a leak to pin to my chest for St. David's Day as is traditional. Did any of the rest of you? I know what what does St. David do? The patron saint of Wales. The country. What is he? Oh, I was thinking, maybe do I need to go down to SeaWorld or something? Yeah, is he leaky or? No, no, no. St. Christopher is like what you want while you're traveling. Right. What does St. David do? He protects all of Wales, the country of Wales. Well, good for them. So that's a job. Well, yeah. Let me tell you. Yeah, it's a lot of people. I know, I know. How long did he have to be in turn? Everybody always thinks we mean the animal. And the Welsh are tired of it. All right. So now we've cleared that up. Let's start with the quick hits. I don't speak Flemish, but I will tell you that Facebook announced it will remove the news aggregation tab from its U.S. and Australian sites starting in early April. In Australia, this means it will no longer negotiate payments to carry news under the news media bargaining code. Once current deals expire in a few months, the Australian treasurer will have to decide whether to designate Facebook as a business where news is a significant driver of Facebook use. If it does, then Facebook will be forced to negotiate under the code and Meta will likely sue to dispute that decision. Facebook claims news only makes up 3% of what users are seeing in their feeds worldwide. The weird thing about you saying you don't speak Flemish is you speak perfect Welsh. That's just, it's so odd. Apple has changed its mind and will offer the ability to save progressive web apps to the home screen on iOS in the European Union. The EU's new rules require Apple to allow alternate browser engines to its own web kit and Apple had asserted that maintaining local storage of PWA information for multiple browser engines was not worth the expense because not that many people use it and it would be required to offer equivalent services to all browsers. So it just wouldn't allow PWAs at all keeping the playing ground level. However, those smart engineers at Apple have figured out how to use web kit to store a progressive web apps data even if the user has been accessing the PWA in a browser with another engine. So everything's good now, they can do it, yay. Yay. Android users who have rooted their phones or installed custom boot loaders, Jason Howell looking at you, have reported that support for RCS messages isn't working. RCS is the industry standard for sending images, video and other rich communication over text messages. Google says that some phones with altered software are prevented from accessing RCS support as an anti-spam and abuse measure. SMA or MMS continues to work on altered phones. Users of altered phones can also circumvent the problem by bypassing the Play integrity API though that also reduces security in other areas. Android also disables Google wallet services if it detects the device has been rooted. How many devices have you rooted, Jason? Oh God, over the years, too many to count. In the last like eight years, none. So you're- Who does that anymore? Yeah, yeah. That's old. The information reports that Google offered to partner with Meta on Android XR, its operating system for virtual reality headsets in late 2023, so just the end of last year, but Meta rejected the offer. Meta's Quest uses the open source version of Android so Google thought, hey, we can partner up, bring the full version of Android that we support to your headset. Meta gets the overall development community benefits. Google gets the benefit of having Meta engineers contributing to the operating system and it would expand the number of Android apps that work on the Quest, something that Meta has said it would like to do, especially apps from Google. So they would have more than just YouTube on the Quest. A likely sticking point was having to have the Google App Store. Meta would not want to offer Google's version of the store. In fact, Meta seems to wanna make its version of the OS the standard and has been talking to LG and others about bringing the Quest OS to other devices. If you wanna have a printer with low maintenance costs and high privacy, consider a laser jet. If you wanna pay $7 to $36 per month to rent a printer that limits the number of pages that you print and thus makes you monitor your printing activities, then HP's new all-in-one plan might be the one for you. $7 per month gives you an HP Envy printer, lets you print 20 pages per month. $36 rents you an OfficeJet Pro and puts a 700 page limit per month on you. The plans also include ink and tech support, though they don't include repairs, which, yeah, I have some questions about that. The printers also must be connected to the internet at all times. Yeah, but $7 a month, huh, yeah. I mean, when would I even ever need to print more than 22? Who says you can't put a price on privacy? Yeah, I don't know. All right, let's get into this big court case. Elon Musk filing a lawsuit against open AI and naming Sam Altman and Greg Brockman as defendants, saying that the company and those two have violated open AI's own founding agreement. You may ask, what does Musk have to do with this? He co-founded open AI with CEO Sam Altman and President Greg Brockman in 2015. Okay, so all right, we've got some inside baseball. What's really going on here, Tom? Yeah, the founding agreement that was referenced in the lawsuit is in open AI, Incorporated December 8th, 2015 Certificate of Incorporation. And it says, resulting technology will benefit the public and the corporation will seek to open source technology for the public benefit when applicable. The corporation is not organized for the private gain of any person. Now Musk claims that because he was a significant founder I should say of the foundation of open AI that based on that founding agreement, he is accusing open AI of breach of contract and a few other violations because he says, well, I wouldn't have funded the company with no promise of getting that money back if I had been aware that somewhere down the line it would pursue profits, even if it's in a subsidiary and Microsoft would be making tons of money off of it. This is not what I signed up for when I gave him the money early on. Okay, so that's what Elon Musk's argument is. What is open AI's defense against it? Open AI's defense will likely include the fact that its for-profit subsidiary has its profits capped. So it's gonna say it's only for profit in order to provide some motivations. It doesn't change us from being a nonprofit. It's not meant to benefit any one entity. Yes, Microsoft benefits from it, but that's no different than what Mozilla does when it has contractors that use Firefox and that that subsidiary was necessary to continue the company. I would expect them to make that argument based on the fact that Musk left in 2018 and sort of abruptly stopped funding the company and didn't deliver a lot of the money that he said he was gonna deliver so they could even possibly do a countersuit. I don't think they'll do that. Musk also makes the more controversial claim in this lawsuit that GPT-4 is in fact artificial generalized intelligence. Therefore the exact danger open AI was founded to guard against is there and it must be opened for others to investigate. He alleges that GPT-4 is kept closed only to provide profits to Microsoft. Open AI is probably gonna argue that it's kept closed for the safety of humanity. That's why it's kept closed and the organization is just fulfilling its charter by keeping it closed. All right, so if Elon Musk gets his way what would he want the court to do? Yeah, so in the lawsuit he is asking the court to order open AI to adhere to its founding agreement. So in other words, stop trying to make money, open source all the things you can open source and he's asking for unspecified damages. You have to have a claim of at least $35,000 in damages to bring this sort of claim as part of the lawsuit. I guess it's gonna be a lot more than that. And he says in this lawsuit it's at least $35,000 worth of damages that we can prove during court. He also suggests restitution of donations as a possible basis for the calculation. So in a sense saying I might just ask for my money back all the money that I funded open AI with in the early days just give me that back. All right, so Jason hearing all of this big news in AI technology news today what do you think is significant here? Well, do I think it's an insignificant case? Absolutely not. Open AI, you know, I don't love them or hate them. They're arguably one of the most noteworthy players in AI at the moment. So I think that immediately makes it a big deal. And then you've got of course Elon Musk that makes everything a party of, maybe party's the wrong word, but he makes everything that he gets. Party of the sort, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, everywhere's if he turns and turns his attention to becomes a party of good or party bad. You know, the worst party or the best party depending on what side of the fence you sit on. I'm gonna stop talking about parties now. Open AI seems to be operating in my view anyways under a very different purpose than when they began. And I think it's pretty difficult to deny that outright. I mean, the deal with Microsoft really makes that more obvious even. And by the way, I'm sure that's a really big part, you know, all of this is probably a really big part of that whole ouster and rehire thing that happened last year with Sam Altman, but that's just a guess. I think Elon has a point here and there's really no question about it. I'm curious about the burden of proof. Elon is referencing, you know, these emails, he's referencing the founding articles of incorporation. Is that gonna be enough for him to get the win here? And then I think beyond that, how long is this gonna drag out? Is this one of those cases that we're talking about years and years down the line? Because it is important. And we're at this early point of this like inflection point around AI. So we're gonna see lots of cases like these. I don't know. I think Open AI was founded on this kind of principle of openness and air quotes being good for all. And I think it's hard. It's difficult to ignore the fact that it's a money-making machine right now. Is that okay? That's what this case is about. That's all true, but is that a violation of its foundation charter that is a breach of contract with Elon Musk? Is what the court's gonna have to decide? No, I don't think they will. Again, we don't know what evidence Musk might bring to court or what testimony might happen. So you're saying there's a chance. Yeah, there's a chance. I'll give it an 18% chance that Musk prevails in this. But I think most courts are gonna look at this and say, hey, they've kept their nonprofit structure. It's totally normal these days for companies to create a for-profit subsidiary of a nonprofit entity. So just because they did that doesn't mean they're bad. Open AI can make some compelling arguments that, yes, we will be open when appropriate. It has not been appropriate in these cases to be open. And here's why. And they could, so I feel like they're gonna prevail in court, whether they'll prevail in the court of public opinion, they will prevail in court. And it's gonna drag on for years. And we're gonna be very entertained. It's gonna be very entertaining because they're gonna drag in all this testimony and expose a bunch of emails and people will get some juicy gossip out of it. Oh, it's gonna be one of those cases. I do think it's pretty funny that he calls out AGI as far as chat GPT being, you know, AGI. I think that's a total stretch at this point. That kind of feels like, sorry. No, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say that feels, we're gonna say the same thing, maybe. But that feels like Elon Musk saying the thing he knows is gonna get a reaction out of a certain group of people out there that are fearful of AGI. Yeah, and he wants to use it to drag a bunch of open AI secrets out in court. Yeah. Because another, and Elon Musk has a case. You're absolutely right. I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to bring this case. But another motivation he could have to bring a totally legitimate case is because he's also developing AI and anything he can do to slow down a competitor is good for his business. And so if you can get them to drag out a bunch of secrets in court by saying, you're doing AGI, prove you're not in court in front of everyone, then that's good for his business. Yeah, indeed. There are levels to these things. Yeah, and wheels within wheels. Many, many wheels and levels. All right. The wheels I keep on turning. Don't you know it? It's okay. Well, if you listened to that song on Spotify recently, you might be interested in something that Spotify is doing, wasn't a good segue, Sarah. Well, that was great. That was great. Are you kidding me? Thank you, thank you, thank you. Commit. Commit to the bill. Thank you. Sometimes I like to be applauded. So Spotify added 15 hours of free audiobooks listening to its subscription plan. That was last year. Today, Spotify introduced a $9.99 per month option for its free users to also access that same audiobooks collection. It's called the Audiobooks Access Tier. It's similar to the service that it offers subscribers letting customers in the US stream 15 hours of listening from its catalog of over 200,000 titles, 15 hours of listening per month. Free Spotify users can still stream music and podcasts using its ad supported service but can also pay to listen to audiobooks without having to buy a Spotify subscription. Now, I'm not a mathematician but I looked at this and I was like, okay. It's not really that great of a deal but I guess if for whatever reason you simply do not want to subscribe to a Spotify account, you want to be on the free tier, you can at least get a $10 version of something that would be $16 otherwise. Yeah, the other comparison is audible. 15 hours a month, let's just for the purposes of this conversation, assume like that's about a book. You know, audiobooks range anywhere from eight to 20 hours but they're usually somewhere around 12, 13 hours, right? So that's a book. Audible gives you one credit for one book a month for $15 a month. So when you put it that way, well it's a screaming deal. You get a book a month for $10 versus $15. I wanted to ask all of you like how you, if you do, how do you enjoy an audiobook? For me, for whatever reason, when I'm at home, there are many times where I'm like, I have to do some like, I don't know, vacuuming or I have to cook something. An audiobook would be a great thing to play on my home speakers but I only like to listen when I'm driving and I don't drive that much because I work from home. So to me, I'm like 15 hours, I would never even do that but back in the day when I was commuting two hours to and from work, that would have been a different conversation. Jason, where are you on this? Yeah, I mean, I'm similar to you but I do use audiobook and podcast content and stuff to tie into other tasks that I'm doing. Rarely do I ever, if ever actually, now that I think about it, sit down and say I'm gonna listen to an audiobook right now and that's like the thing I do while I stare into space. Like I never do that. I'm sure there are some people that do. It's always tied to doing something, be it driving, doing the dishes, taking the dogs on the walk. Yeah, that's how I listen to content like this. Audiobooks fight for podcast space in my schedule, right? I either listen to podcasts or audiobooks kind of in the same situations. Although I'm the opposite of you, Sarah, I can listen to a podcast while I'm driving. I cannot listen to an audiobook easily while I'm driving. I do it sometimes if I'm really into a book but I get distracted by, you know, not running into other cars and then I lose my place. I'm like, wait, what did they say? Where did they go? And I got a rewind and all of that. So I tend to do it more when I'm like doing chores around the house, you know, doing the laundry, vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom, stuff like that, doing some gardening. Or I will sometimes do it at night where I listen to an audiobook and then like, you know, play like a real simple mobile game on my phone as I go off to sleep. Well, I mean, that's the beauty of audio. You know, some people are sort of like, nope, I'm either reading it or I'm not. Audiobooks aren't for everyone. And I don't think that, you know, an audiobook means that you don't pay attention to the story as much, but it does give you like the option to, in my case, like drive to the grocery store or, you know, play a very simple mobile game. You know, nothing too crazy. That is sort of the beauty of the whole thing. Anyway, I don't know how many of y'all out there are interested in the Spotify new model for audiobooks, but if you are, let us know. Feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. Yeah, if you're like, no, no, this is perfect for me, even though it's only a dollar less than the full subscription. We're very curious about that. I just don't know why you don't pay an extra dollar. Like you get all that extra stuff. I guess if you don't truly need it. I guess, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. A dollar, I don't know. I don't know, Jason. A dollar goes a long way these days. That's true. No, you're there. Absolutely right. Think of all the things. Yeah, with inflation, the dollar, don't wait. You know what doesn't cost you a dollar to watch if you've already paid for the internet? It's our top five show at youtube.com slash Daily Tech News show. It's a quick show. It's a short these days. 60 seconds where I break down five things you need to know about the world or technology. This week, Roger wanted to count down the top five reasons. The Mac mini is the best Mac. So that's what I'm doing. If you're like, no, Mac mini, how's the Mac mini is the best Mac? Take 60 seconds and watch. You can catch it at Daily Tech News show on TikTok, DTNS pics on Instagram, or as I said, youtube.com slash Daily Tech News show. Last year, companies like Reddit began pulling back, sharing their data sets, you know, restricting their APIs, a whole big revolt over that. Over the past month, a number of companies have partnered with content providers to get licenses to monetize training data. Yesterday, we talked about Stack Overflows deal with Google. Google disclosed a partnership last week with Reddit. Reports alleged that the parent of Tumblr and WordPress automatic has been striking similar agreements with companies like Mid Journey and OpenAI. Jason, a lot of people say that companies should pay to license training data, but what if that data is user data? Because the other thing people don't like is when companies share their user data and monetize it. We see that in the world of advertising. What do you think? Do these deals respect that complaint around data sharing? Where should we draw the line on this stuff? Yeah, I mean, I think it really depends on how a user feels about this, comes down to is, you know, as with so many things that are monetized online, based on kind of user's use, you know, the social media would be another example, is what kind of value do we actually get out of the product? Is what we're giving worth what we're getting? Do they feel like they have any control over whether their data is shared like this? In the case of, you know, some of these things that we're talking about here, I should also point out WordPress.com, not WordPress, so it's not the open source, self-hosted thing. It's the, you know, it's the .com, not .org, which I got wrong on Wednesday on AI Inside. Oh, I see. But so I just want to throw that out there and bring it forward along. People get that wrong a little bit. Yeah, oh, totally. It's easy to get confused, but Automatic has acknowledged that users can opt out of this. Tumblr added the opt-out option in February, but at the same time, you know, people, many people are not going to know that they even can do this, many will not, and they're going to react anyways. So, you know, really at the end of the day, do people feel like that information is giving them something on the other side, I think is a real important aspect of this? Yeah, I think this is inevitable, right? Like, we should have known this was coming. Yeah, absolutely. 100% expected and inevitable. Throwback to Buzz Out Loud. We can't have our cake and eat it too, Tom. Yeah, we can't both have a cake, but then also have eaten it. Yes, exactly. As the saying goes. That's right. That's how it's always in my brain now. Thank you for that. If what we want is future technology that does all of these really crazy cool things for us, then, you know, data is essential to building it. We have to decide what we really want. As users, what are we willing to give in order to inform these things? I think the real challenge here with how this data is being used, you know, with AI and where we're at in this inflection point with AI is that I think as users we probably do want, maybe not everybody, but we probably want systems to do these really magical, neat things that improve our lives in so many ways. But the only way to do that is to fill it with really good pertinent data. And siphoning out, you know, large buckets of data so that only certain pieces go in there. It changes the ultimate product on the other side. And so, you know, again, it goes back to what the users who have contributed this information say they've posted onto Reddit and now that data is being sold off, you know, to inform these AI services of things. Like, you know, if that's gonna give you what you're actually looking for, I guess what it is is it's a confusing thing where I think sometimes people say, I want really good things, but I also don't want this to be shared. And it's like, well, sharing that gives you really good things. How can we respect your desire for that to be done in a controlled, respectable way that still gives you the good thing you're looking for? I mean, there's a collision here between the fact that we have never adequately resolved the problem of who owns your own data, right? And for years, I've been a proponent of SOLID, which is an attempt by Tim Berners-Lee to create a system where you could have data under your control and still share it with people safely. It has not caught on, but the fact that we never solved that is now complicating this because I'm gonna do a whole episode of Know A Little More on ChatGPT and go at great lengths to show people that you aren't copying data. ChatGPT isn't looking at a database full of copies of data when it creates its things. It is looking at weights of individual words. And if I were to tell you, you need to pay the New York Times if you wanna publish a count of the words that are in New York Times articles, you'd think I was crazy. Like, what, I can't say how many times they use the word the without a license? That's ridiculous. Essentially, what ChatGPT does is a complicated version of that, right? So I don't think it's a copyright issue, but I do think that it's right for people to have a say over whether their data gets used in training data sets or not. So I think we need new rules around that. And the fact that we haven't figured out the rules around privacy is now complicating this. Yeah, 100%. And I will also mention that like, when we use these services, we agree to a certain number of things. It's all there in the terms of service and the reality is many of us, and I'm just as guilty as anyone, don't read it. And so we don't actually know what we're agreeing to, but I hate to break it to you. Reddit owns the data that you're putting onto the Reddit site. And they probably disclose at some point in the terms of service that they wanna do this. If they're not disclosing that, that is a big issue. That's a whole other thing. Yeah, like clicking okay on terms of service that would take you days to read also shouldn't be legally binding. No, totally. You know what you can use to make that more sense of that? An LLM. An LLM. Yeah, right. There you go. It all comes back around. That's right, full circle. All right, let's check out the mailbag. This one is from Chris Christensen who says if you're looking for ways to spend your credit card points, people have those on a plane ticket to somewhere really special. He might have the website for you. This is Chris Christensen from Amateur Traveler with another tech in travel minute. If you collect points and miles for travel and you have a credit card, for instance, that gives you such points and there are numerous credit cards that will do so, especially in the US, less so in Europe and other places, then I'm going to recommend a website to you called Points Yeah, Y-E-A-H. And if you're looking for a flight to buy with your airline points, then you can go to Points Yeah to price a particular itinerary. You choose where you're going, whether it's one way or round trip, and then your dates with some flexibility on the dates, and it will come back with a series of flights that will match that criteria and tell you how many points they are and what kind of points they would be. So it's a great starting place for a points and miles search. There's a number of these that are paid. This one has an upgrade to a paid membership, but it's not a bad place to start for free. The site again is Points Yeah.com, and this is Chris Christensen from Amateur Traveler. I think they use an LLM. I think they probably will. That's the thing. Yeah, they probably will. Even if it's not AI behind the scenes, they'll say it's AI. Real quickly, Detroit Lions Forever wrote in and said, has anyone else had their DoorDash app offer them money and discounts to take pictures of the food they order or is it just me? Accurate photos, no need to rely on diffusion models, doesn't cost the restaurant a thing, we all win. No, the answer is no. I don't use DoorDash as much as some people do, but I have an account. I use it here and there. They've never asked me to take a photo of my delivered meal, but if they did and I got a discount, I would be happy to offer them my submission. And they'll use it to train their diffusion model. Fine, I don't care. I just want to eat dinner. Yeah. You know what I think these companies should do? Don't use diffusion models to create images of your food that's fake. Don't make people out there, take photos of food, have Len Peralta draw your food. That is the best way. I gotta say real quickly, that's kind of weird, isn't it? Like hey, you gotta take some pictures of this food for us, wouldn't you? And it's like, I don't know. It's like next thing they're gonna ask me to take pictures of my feet or something. No, no. All right, we have enough food pics. Can we have some feet, please? That's all we're gonna do. You know why they're doing that. I'm just trying to get more pictures of the, you know, I don't know. Sure, sure. Spaghetti. That leads me to this question, Len, how have you drawn my feet today? I didn't draw feet today. Although, you know, it's not Elon Musk, right? I keep drawing this guy. That guy. Yeah, that guy, right? So today I'm like, eh, it's kind of ridiculous. He's like, why did you abandon your mission for benefit of humanity and choose to be for profit? I really just did this so I could have open AI tell him to go, go musk himself. Go musk yourself. Anyway, that's. Oh, Len, this is one of the good ones. Thank you. It was not programmed to love you, Elon. No, it wasn't, it wasn't. Yeah, it's sometimes I go for the cheap joke. If you love cheap jokes, you can go and get this at Patreon, patreon.com forward slash Len. If you back me at the DTNS lover level, you'll get it for free. Or you can go to my store, lennproldestore.com and you can get it there or you can commission me. You can do that as well. That's always fun. And I will draw your feet. So. If you ask. Len will draw your feet. Jason Howell, let's not talk about feet, but let's talk about where people can keep up with all that you do. Well, if you would like me to send you foot pictures, then go ahead and send an email to Android Faithful. She just said. No, I blanked it. I'm sorry. androidfaithful.com for Android stuff. AIinside.show for AI show. A show I do with Jeff Jarvis talking about artificial intelligence. But I guess I'll, outside of that, if I can throw one more in there, I've started to ramp up content on YouTube and I'm doing the kind of more like reviewsy, somewhat like medium form, long form edited video content. Let me tell you, it's a lot of work, but I'm having fun with it. So go to youtube.com slash at yellowgoldstudios or just yellowgoldstudios.com will take you right there. Yeah, fantastic. Go check that out. And just a real quick note, Jason will be joining Eileen and I on Apple Vision Show. Episode five, we record on Monday and we're so glad to have you. Thank you. Yeah, is it a requirement that I have an Apple Vision Pro in order to be on the show? No, no, no. Okay, because I know. It's all things Apple. All things Apple all the time. Cool, it's like a part of it. So Vision Pro, you know, encouraged, but not mandatory. Yeah, you don't even have to have feet. Patrons, stick around for the extended show, Good Day Internet. It's time again for the great GDI debates. We like to have fun on Fridays. We've got ethics and AI surveillance, fun for against data apps. And are you done with nostalgia culture? Stick around. Reminder, we do the show live. You might be watching live, but if not, you can catch the show live Monday through Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern, 2100 UTC. You can find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live. We hope you all have a real nice weekend. We're back on Monday with Nika Montford joining us. Talk to you then. This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people, host producer and writer, Tom Merritt, host producer and writer, Sarah Lane, executive producer and booker, Roger Chang, producer, writer and co-host, Rob Dunwood, video producer and Twitch producer, Joe Coons, technical producer, Anthony Lemos, Spanish language host, writer and producer, Dan Campos. Science correspondent, Dr. Nicky Ackermans, social media producer and moderator, Zoe Deterding. Our mods, Beatmaster, W. Scottus1, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Guadirama, Paul Reis, Matthew J. Stevens, a.k.a. Gadget Virtuoso, and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music and Art, provided by Martin Bell, Dan Looters, Mustafa A, ACAST and Len Peralta. Live Art, performed by Len Peralta. ACAST adds support from Tatiana Matias, Patreon support from Tom McNeil. Our contributors this week were Ron Richards, Scott Johnson, Justin Robert Young, Jason Howe and Chris Christensen. And thanks to all the patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. The DTNS Family of Podcasts. Helping each other understand.