 The final item of business today is members' business debate on motion 16105, in the name of George Adam, on concern for local radio content. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. Would those who wish to speak in the debate please press the requested speak buttons? I really must change the wording on that because I always get my tongue tied over it. I call on George Adam to open the debate for around seven minutes. The debate is about how important our local commercial radio stations are to our communities in Scotland. I would like to take the opportunity to thank Joan McAlpine and her colleagues on the culture committee, who are not a member of the committee, but have afforded me quite a bit of time with regards to being able to ask questions of individuals in the industry on that. It is my concern that the off-com regulator for the industry is attacking Scottish commercial radio, as we speak. They are sleeping on the job and forgetting that they represent the public with regard to the spectrum that they dish out to various radio stations on our behalf. What they have effectively done recently has created a duopoly between both global and Bauer radio, the two largest commercial radio operators in the UK. They have created a virtual national network using local radio licences for that. When that happens, we end up getting things squeezed like local news get squeezed in time. We also have a situation where local music will not be played in local. Most important, presenters of shows will not actually come from here as well. It seems to be that off-com are lacking ambition. During this whole time, I have been talking to various organisations and those involved in the industry. They have been saying things like the UK Government has tried to encourage DAB digital audio broadcasting to be the future of radio. Currently, FM is still the main way that people access commercial radio. Effectively, when I spoke to the off-com last week, I said that you are quickly backing the beat-a-max of radio broadcasting as technology moves forward and things go on. One of the things that is quite strange and concerning about the way that they have dealt with the DAB licences is the fact that the multiplexes in various cities are run by the operators. In my area, in the west of Scotland, it will be Bauer and Clyde 1 and Clyde 2, who are effectively deciding how much it costs for them as a radio operator to buy some space on that multiplex. To me, that seems too cosy. It seems against the idea of having some form of competition and being able to move things forward for the industry in itself. I would be quite concerned if it was one of my competitors and I was trying to start a new radio firm. They were one of the ones who were deciding how much it was going to cost. Over the past 10 years, we have had a situation where there has been no FM licences, apart from one that has been submitted and given out by off-com in the past 10 years. That was 96.3 FM, which initially was ironically—I am not segwaying this in at the debate—Q96 was from Paisley. Eventually, it went to various other companies and it was always a problem. It was given back by the previous organisation, one of global companies, and it was put out for auction again. What happened was that Nation Radio Scotland took that up and they have proven that, recently, with the new figures, they have got 50,000 listeners. That was their first target to show that they could move forward and compete with the market leaders that are already there, like the bit in our area that is Bower, Clyde1 and Clyde2. That shows that there is a market and there is a need for listeners who want to listen to something new. Adam Finlay, who comes from a famous commercial radio family, set up a forced radio way back in the 1970s. He had his own company and a new wave media group, but his problem was that he could not expand. He basically had wave 102 in Dundee, central FM in central Scotland and original in Aberdeen. His problem was that he could not expand to other cities and other areas to try and get some more radio stations set up. He eventually had to sell his business to DC Thomson, who are now working it and keeping it local. His model is the polar opposite of the Bower global model, where, effectively, with a situation in which Global announced a couple of months ago that its breakfast show would now be broadcast from London in capital radio. That does not help us in any shape or form. That takes away from a Scottish voice being on the radio, a Scottish person or someone locally being able to do the production values and be part of the backroom team. It goes against the idea of what commercial radio was originally all about. Initially, the very first radio set up was radio Clyde on 10.30pm on Monday 31 December 1973, a couple of years younger than me. What was radio Clyde started broadcasting? That made a big difference in Scotland at that time, because that was the first time that we had ever heard our accents, our voice being mentioned and talked about in commercial radio. It has another effect when we start centralising all of the broadcasting. It has another effect on another industry that we are very important players in as well, the music industry itself. In the old days, in Clyde 1—or radio Clyde, as it was—Billy Sloan would be a DJ who went to all the gigs and he knew a band. He would see a band and he would promote a new band. We were massive in Glasgow before they went anywhere else in the world. It was because of playing being played on radio Clyde. The problem for any young band now would be a situation when such players were centralised. Bauer owned Clyde 1 or 4. They effectively centralised their playlist in Manchester, so someone in Manchester decides what the list is, what the music is going to be and since I've found out how this works, my respect for presenters has gone through the roof because they basically have about two or three minute windows in between these playlists are just automated to try and actually make the listener feel entertained and give them a bit of local content but then when you look at it as well what how it will affect news now heart radio was previously real radio about 10 15 years ago they had 30 more news on real radio than they have now local news and to deal with local issues as well now that's not happening anymore we don't have that anymore it's 30 less on heart radio and it's going to get worse if we don't actually draw a line under this at this stage it's going to get worse now I am not saying I'm not a romantic the ones who heart back to the old days and say that it was so much better than radio people have been saying radio is going to die for decades now but it just changes it evolves the technology changes and people listen to it differently but for us the most important thing is we must still have our voice coming through whatever bit of technology we use to listen to it we need to make sure that offcom is doing its job and making sure that we are still getting these local messages because if a major incident happened in Glasgow like if you talk about the Glasgow airport terrorist attack Clyde used to have a 24 7 newsroom they no longer have that they have their own news up until 9 30 and then they buy it in from sky and there's no local news at the weekend so if a major disaster happens at the weekend there'll be nothing on our airwaves that's wrong we have to make sure that as we move forward in ironically the world where we have our own BBC TV channel we we need to make sure that we have that ability to still have our voice and radio you'll hear from my colleagues and the various commercial radios throughout stations throughout Scotland but the important thing for me is we must ensure that we do not lose this very important part of Scotland's broadcasting history and we need to make sure that we continue to have commercial radio. We'll move now to the open debate, speeches of four minutes please. Jamie Greene followed by Gillian Martin. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank George Adam for bringing this very important debate to the chamber. He managed to get Paisley in a couple of times there so that's one of his records but I know he's also played a very active part in the committee's deliberations on this issue and I also know that he's probably George Bowie's greatest fan. I hope he's got a signed photograph on his office wall. There's a lot to be said about local and community radio it's played a huge part in my life as members probably know I spent many years in the media industry started off my career in radio indeed started off in hospital radio community radio and local radio including short-term radio events as well and I really get it in that respect but also I get the fact that the world and the media landscape has changed so much over the last decade like many I worked in progress from radio and television worked on the technical side but also the commercial side of the business as well and understood the real commercial models and the difficulties facing media companies small medium and large including those who operate many services it's really sad what is happening to local radio but I think perhaps where I disagree with Mr Adam is that I don't point the finger squarely on off-com for this I think unfortunately the reality is that this is the direction of travel that the radio industry has been facing for a number of years if not decades I go back to the days of UKRD the consolidation of the companies that owned and operated radio stations and that is a trend that's been continuing for a number of years alongside that we have the additional problem of the fact that tech has been changing I have to say problem it's not a problem it's brought innovation and it's brought access to a plethora of new services to consumers but also it's brought challenges to the traditional model and by the traditional model I mean the traditional linear broadcast model and that's the case for both free to our television and free to listen to radio live streaming and IP delivered services are competing on this market and appealing to new and younger audiences so commercial radio it has been facing a tough time for a long time indeed the financial models that support commercial radio has been changing for many years the consolidation of the ad sales market the way in which companies sell advertising and to whom they sell it too and how much they can charge for it has been getting tougher as the market fragments and advertising revenues go online so all of these factors I think have come together to the perfect storm of where we're at at the moment with local radio and that's not to say off-com does not have a role to play in this and could have addressed this very differently but I don't buy the argument that this consolidation has been constructed or construed through any regulatory environment I think it is in fact a natural organic direction of travel for the industry to go in so the the role here is now what Calffcom can do to make life easier and better for small operators some of the great work that DC Thomson are doing in trying to really localise radio again it should be noted they had some concerns around the allocation of new FM licenses it's fair to say there's still spectrum in bandwidth available they need to release that we needed those licenses to be released FM is affordable it's technically much more simple than DAB as we heard DAB is extremely expensive game to play in but I am buoyant and positive because when off-com did try to get expressions of interest for small-scale DAB they had over 700 expressions of interest that's a sign to me there's still an appetite out there for people to set up and operate radio stations but regulation needs to keep up you know the regulation environment that operates the traditional old world of broadcast media has not kept up with how people consume content I'm afraid to say the fact that I can set up a radio station right now in broadcast in a matter of minutes in an entirely unregulated market whilst competing against you know high budget and high end radio stations that are extremely highly regulated seems to me doesn't seem like a fair playing field so all I would say is that yes we do need to support local radio but we need to help local radio evolve we need to help to change its financial models and we need to help it to take advantage of technical changes that make it easier to reach new and younger and different audiences and of course we need to help all those poor radio presenters have just lost their jobs as a result of these changes where are they going to go I do not know so thanks to George Adam for bringing this important but brief debate to the chamber I hope the committee that I sit on will continue this discussion and I look forward to hearing what the cabinet secretary has to say in response thank you Gillian Martin followed by Kezia Dugdale thank you Presiding Officer I want to thank George Adam for securing this debate on an issue which I think impacts on the development of Scotland's broadcasting talent for many young aspiring broadcasters and technicians local radio was a way into a career that's already a challenge to enter in Scotland with so many media jobs disproportionately being in London and Manchester and I see the further erosion of locally produced content proposed in the off-combe deregulation of radio proposals that George Adam highlighted in his motion has been a further barrier putting the way of young people who want to enter the broadcasting sector and the moves will allow for more centrally produced syndicated content and a reduction in locally produced programmes and I must declare a historical interest in local radio I was a film reviewer for original 106 when it launched in 2007 but I did it for fun rather than any career move many of the graduates of the HNC radio course at North East Scotland College found their first paid work on the station which had 100% local content initially and was a hot bed of nurturing local talent with original been bought over by DC Thompson and moving into the centre of Aberdeen city right across from the Aberdeen journals I hope that that will continue the station also provided a great deal of work experience for students over the years crucial for your CV if you ever want to get a foot in the door of this very competitive sector and just along the road or before original was moving is North Sound radio which has given many Aberdonians their springboard to successful broadcasting career since it first broadcast started broadcasting in the early 1980s just to name check a few North Sound gave the now household name Nikki Campbell his first radio gig the new BBC Scotland channels Fiona Stocker she was head of news at North Sound in the 1990s when I first met her and the new channels flagship new programme of the nine presenter Rebecca Curran also started a career at North Sound there's Brian Burnett who broadcast to the whole Scotland every night on BBC Radio Scotland has had a decades long TV and radio career he too is a North Sound alumnus my old school friend Gary Steen started at North Sound as a 17 year old instead of going to university which upsets parents at the time but I'm sure they're now very proud of him because he's now the group programme director at Barrier Radio and parliamentarians will be familiar with BBC's parliamentary and corporate affairs manager Luke McCulloch when I first met Luke he was presenting one of the best local current affairs and music shows on North Sound in the early years the millennium unfortunately that kind of format seems to have dropped out of the kind of programming of of North Sound but you get my point local radio is a nursery for talent and a springboard to lifelong careers in broadcasting and it should be mentioned that off comes proposed changes will keep the north of Scotland boundaries as they are but the general trend of a reduction in the requirement for local produced locally produced content is hugely damaging for the talent base in Scotland as a whole today they approved areas in Scotland go from three to two but how long before Scotland only has one and with fewer opportunities to get that first entry experience into local radio we will continue to see young talent having to move elsewhere for those opportunities even if they even if they do exist elsewhere because let's not forget the proposals may precipitate a reduction in locally produced content across the whole of the UK but worse than that talented young broadcasters may not be able to enter the industry at all and as someone who trained broadcasting students in that north east scotland college this is bad news for the college sector too if there aren't any jobs locally in the creative industries then these colleges may have to lose those specialisms George Adam has talked about the effect of this in the listener in depth and I agree with it many reasons why local content is important for listeners too but Scotland needs to nurture and keep its broadcasting talent we need broadcasters to understand Scotland and we need them to stay in Scotland keeping our creative industries alive and providing quality content that speaks to local people and those proposals I think put that in further jeopardy. Kezia Dugdale, followed by Rora Mackay. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and can I start by congratulating George Adam on securing his slot this afternoon? I wasn't tending on speaking, I'm speaking on behalf of Claire Baker who like a number of MSP colleagues failed to make a flight this morning on return from a parliamentary delegation. I know she was very much looking forward to contributing to the debate and talking specifically about Kingdom FM in her own region. Everything I've learned about this debate, I'm afraid, Mr Adam, I've learned this afternoon so I can't speak with the same authority that you do on these issues. However, I have learned this afternoon that you are indeed a radio enthusiast and there's very little about Clyde in particular FM that you don't know and I wondered whether in a life post being an MSP we might see you featuring leading up radio paisley or buddy FM as you might find it. I'm very grateful to you for your expertise in this area. I want to make three quick points, one about deregulation, one about the charitable impact of radio and one about community impact. I think that the motion that Mr Adam puts forward this afternoon is quite negative and I understand the concerns that he's outlaid in their very legitimate concerns, but I guess I'm not quite as pessimistic as he is because I think they're not going to work. If you look at the changes to heart FM, for example, where you see somebody like Robin Galloway, who presented the breakfast show being replaced by a network show in the form of Amanda Holden and Jamie Theakston, Robin Galloway's been a part of my life since he presented the birthday spot on Grampian TV in the 80s. The idea that people want to tune in to Jamie Theakston instead, I find baffling and the idea of local content isn't just about the news that's presented on the hour, it's that news that is woven into everything that you hear throughout the radio day. If you listen to Boogie in the morning on Radio 4, the news is part of everything that he talks about and that's what makes it so popular and why not only is it readership or it's listenership steady, it's in fact growing and it's only when listeners are growing is radio station making the money that it needs to. I think that he also makes legitimate points about how new music and new bands break through. I think that back to the 90s, the band The Hazy Jane's were formed in my school, they were the school band and went on to huge success. I remember that sense of excitement when they got their first tune playing on TFM and then Wave 106, as it was later termed. Now bands have new opportunities to break online, whether that's producing their own videos or featuring on internet radio stations, which George Adam has pointed out, remain unregulated. There are other options for people to break through. On the positive side, I look at the work that journalists do on Radio 4 in particular, which is the one that I'm most familiar with. Regularly, the champion charitable causes, the cabinet secretary might be aware that Radio 4 hosted a superhero day on 10 May and raised just on the radio 4 listenership area £202,000 in one day just by encouraging people to go to their place of work dressed as superheroes. All of that money is spent within the Lothian region trying to advance initiatives that tackle poverty and inequality. I think that we need to recognise the huge role that local radio stations play in that community impact and charitable impact. Another thing that I'd like to mention is that Radio 4 requires all of its journalists to have a campaigning aspect of their work. I notice that most significantly in the work that Alan Smith does in the building. I've done a lot of work with the Woodburn family when they lost their son, Sean, on 1 January 2017. That was a national story for a day, but it was a daily story for weeks and months on Radio 4 because it happened on the streets that listeners walked on, because it happened outside a pub that listeners drank in. It's part of the fabric of Edinburgh life that has had such a strong connection to the local football club that it went on and on. Alan Smith is championed, the rights of victims is a consequence of that and is a leading light in the campaign for our victims commissioner, as is the station at large. I know from speaking to colleagues that other borough journalists across the country have done similar campaigning work, not least in Clyde, where local journalists are championed in reforms of dog warden and dog welfare legislation, which is so important. I want to congratulate George Adam on securing the debate. I recognise and share some of his concerns, but it is also important to recognise some of the wonderful radio production values that we already have and some of the great local stations that we can all continue to appreciate. Rona Mackay, followed by Ruth Maguire. First, I thank my colleague George Adam for bringing this important debate to the chamber, and I'm pleased to have the chance to speak in it. My second job, when I left school many months ago, was working for Radio Clyde. It was an exciting new broadcaster, new to the airwaves. I think that I might have just given my age away, but I don't mind. At last, the west of Scotland had a voice, as George Adam said, where we could listen to presenters talk about entertainment venues that we knew, new local bands and experiences that we'd all had in and around Glasgow. Having grown up listening to London Central Radio 1, this was a breakthrough, and we don't even mind the adverts. I have fond memories of my time as an office junior in Radio Clyde, and as a teenager, I guess I was a bit overrodd by the DJs, as they were called then, who became my colleagues. While I was putting this speech together, I realised that I have the same affinity for local radio as I do local newspapers, for whom I also worked in the early days of my journalistic career. They too are on their knees, thanks to centralisation. Presiding Officer, the key word here is local. It's so important whether it be for local news, traffic or just general chat and knowledge about the area. People feel part of listening to a local radio station or reading a local newspaper. It's a connection that they can never feel for a remote media that's not based close to home. That's why the recent decision by Ofcom to deregulate conditions for local FM licences is baffling and frankly seems wrong. Of course, commercial radio stations are businesses, but that's what makes it all the more baffling, because local radio is thriving and doing wonderful campaigns, as Kezia outline, and it has growing audience figures and a healthy advertising revenues. As I understand it, the deregulation will mean a planned reduction in the number of local programming from seven hours a day to just three, with a move to produce content centrally from London. Presiding Officer, that will take the broadcasting industry back by decades and will have a hugely detrimental effect on media industries across the UK. As Gillian Martin said, it could reduce the number of opportunities for media students in an age when communication is key and evolving at mind-blowing speed. The Federation of Entertainment unions said that the decision to reduce the number of locally produced programmes will result in the loss of hundreds of jobs and the closure of 11 local studios. In the context of cuts to journalists' jobs and closures of local newspapers, that will add to the serious decline in local news for UK citizens. Those ill-considered changes have taken place without adequate parliamentary scrutiny of their potential effect on local jobs, and they are calling for an urgent review of the decision by Ofcom. I am pleased that George Adam's motion received cross-party support, and I am grateful to him for articulating the business models involved. Labour's culture secretary Tom Watson MPs called the move a travesty, and his colleagues have called for a comments debate. I believe that this ill-thought-out and reckless decision by Ofcom should be reversed immediately. Let's keep our radio local, give listeners what they want, and give security to the many people employed in this important industry. Let's give no-ear time to faceless bureaucrats with a centralising agenda intent on running down our broadcasting media. If we all make enough noise, they might just listen. I thank George Adam for securing members' debate and bringing this important topic of concerns for local radio content to the chamber. I am happy to make a short contribution this afternoon. Centralised playlists of banging tunes are not enough. Local content and news are really important. As George Adam said in opening, we have to hear our own voices on the radio, so it is right that we are getting the opportunity to discuss those concerns here in our Scottish Parliament. Due to new licensing regulations approved by Ofcom, it is now acceptable to broadcast just three hours of content per day from within the new areas, rather than the former local radio that we know. That means that 21 hours a day, Monday to Friday, will be broadcast from a hub and at the weekend there is no longer any requirement to broadcast within an approved area. Essentially, all 48 hours of programming the entire weekend will now come from said hub. The first to launch was the new capital breakfast show, airing from London at Replace, 14 breakfast programmes on the capital network in England, Scotland and Wales. Capital are also planning to cut the number of drive time shows from 14 to 9. I strongly believe that those cuts will have a damaging effect on local radio news and content. Radio newsrooms are a thing of the past with only worldwide news that has been bought in from Sky being broadcast after a certain time, leaving no way of reporting local news, as George said. Those cuts have also meant over 100 radio job losses, local producers and presenters being replaced by big names from elsewhere. There is also a risk that small businesses who once relied on radio advertising to bring in business can no longer do so. Scottish communities who use radio advertising to let locals know about events and charity of things that are going on again may have to find new ways to communicate those. In every corner of the UK there are communities being left with no local radio station and no local voice. At this point, however, I should give a mention to the wonderful community radio stations who are still providing a great service to my community on FM, Urban Beat FM and Three Towns FM. They do a really good job for folk in our area. Another potential loss of opportunity has already been mentioned, but that is bear's repeating, and it is about some of our talented local musicians. It is really difficult for up-and-coming talent who are hoping to make it in the music industry to get discovered now. I would acknowledge that many of the other platforms are used these days on YouTube and on Instagram, but they are pretty saturated. Radio is still a really important way for hopeful stars to promote themselves. Furthermore, for people who do succeed, they have little chance of making it on to the local radio station. As has been mentioned before, generic centralised playlists are now being used and blasted out on all radio stations, meaning that it is the same music that is broadcast all over the UK. We are losing a bit of diversity. I acknowledge that the way that we consume entertainment is changing, but we still need local content and news on FM, and that content needs to reflect the diversity of all of the island here. I remind members always to use the full names of colleagues, please, for the official report and anyone listening in. Moved to the last contribution in the open debate, and that is from Alexander Stewart. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am pleased to take part in this member's debate this evening and congratulate George Adam on bringing it to the chamber. I, too, am highly concerned at the changes that are currently being made within the commercial radio sector and the industry. Those changes that are being waved through by Ofcom have put further pressure on local radio stations, content and news bulletins. At a recent Culture, Tourism and External Affairs Committee, I had the opportunity to question the reasons and the remit as to why Ofcom were making some of those changes. Ofcom says that those changes are due to increased competition and listening habits across the radio sector. However, I questioned whether they were being proportionate in putting forward some of those changes, because most of the industry believed that they are ripping the heart out of local radio. Ofcom still believes that those alterations are proportionate. It says that it is doing a huge amount of work to ensure that radio workforces are diverse and better reflects the makeup of the UK. If that is the case, Deputy Presiding Officer, and Ofcom believes in its own lines that those changes will enhance diversity and will reflect the makeup of the United Kingdom, I would suggest that the actions will do exactly the opposite in doing that. Local radio does a fantastic job. We have already heard in the chamber this afternoon from individuals who know and understand their local part and what is taking place. It highlights and gives the opportunity for local talent to have that platform to get that exposure. By removing some of that, it does constrain its opportunities and not give them the same chances that others have had. As hours are squeezed and the opportunities are squeezed, so will the content. We can look back to the time of radio carline back in 1964, when that initially came out, because it was looked upon as trying to manage popular music and broadcasting throughout the United Kingdom, as well as the monopoly of the BBC. It would be difficult to imagine if many of the carline's broadcasters, DJs and artists would be without that local opportunity of having that exposure. We need to think long and hard about what we are achieving here and what we are trying to achieve. We have heard today about the Scottish playlist that is being removed and eroded. We have heard about the news content that is no longer going to take place. We all know, within our local context, within our local regions or our constituencies, what that local content can mean to individuals that give them that reassurance of what is taking place in and around about their local area. We also know that we have seen changes. Many have mentioned that Jamie Greene talked about the way things have evolved within the industry. We know that 6 million people listen to podcasts that reach in the UK. The argument about whether things would be shrunk or moved forward might mean that people would change their mind and do different things. Localism works at every level, whether it is local knowledge or it is local artists or it is local entrepreneurs. We have to think about how that is managed. We took evidence at the committee from DC Thompson who gave us a huge insight into what they are trying to do within the industry. We have heard today about the commercial side of things, advertisers and the community events that will not now be given an opportunity to broadcast. In conclusion, I firmly believe that the further stifling of local radio content will erode many of our opportunities for individuals, and the shrinking of that market may well see that there will be an acceleration of precisely what the trends that off-com and others are trying their best to avoid. We must protect local radio stations. It is a lifeline for individuals and our communities, and it deserves our respect and our support. I ask Fiona Hyslop to respond to the debate for around seven minutes. I also want to thank George Adam for securing this very important debate. As we have heard from speakers today, local commercial radio makes a valuable contribution to Scotland, and it remains an important part of our lives. That is clear since off-com's figures show that in early 2018, more Scots listened to local commercial radio than to BBC stations. It is surprising to find the very characteristics of local commercial radio, which people value—the local voice, the way that it connects communities, and at risk from recent decisions by off-com. The Scottish Government is disappointed with off-com's decisions to permit a reduction in the amount of locally made radio programming in Scotland and to fail to protect the distinct character of Scotland's east and west by creating a single area for production across our central belt. Content on our local radio stations should, as the off-com's localness guidelines define, give listeners a feel for an area and give listeners confidence that matters of local importance, relevance or interests will be broadcast. The Scottish Government does not believe that one area for the central belt delivers this to the listeners. The reasoning provided by off-com that decisions made on localness will strengthen the ability of local commercial radio stations to deliver locally relevant services that listeners expect. It does not fit with the expectations of listeners to hear local voices and local issues or, as Kezia Dugdale pointed out, local charity and local campaigning initiatives. Through those decisions, off-com is opening the door to change but not one we welcome. The likely result will be that our commercial radio stations will gradually lose their distinctive identities. The familiar sounds of Glasgow pattern or Edinburgh chatter about the things happening around us and things that matter to communities in their daily lives will be lost. George Adam quite rightly identifies the effect of local music talent so that it has access or lack of it on the airwaves. It seems that we risk losing that local identity because off-com is not putting the interests of audiences at the centre of its decisions. The Scottish Government is concerned as it seems that off-com did not fully take into account the interests of Scottish listeners who responded to their consultation. Most responses from audiences wanted to protect distinctiveness, and we simply do not think that the audience's research in Scotland was as complete as it should be to reflect our nation's unique characteristics as off-com's advisory committee in Scotland pointed out and, indeed, Alexander Stewart questioned whether off-com's decisions are proportionate. Wyringly, it seems that off-com's decisions are already having a detrimental effect for Scottish listeners. Global Radio has announced that it will launch UK-wide breakfast shows and lose its distinct local breakfast programme across Scotland, taking some Scottish-based presenters off air. I am concerned that other operators may follow suit and reduce locally made programming from Scotland, meaning that we may lose more local voices. Ann Jobs, as Rona Mackay pointed out, has referred to the cuts at Capital Radio. The concern is that the reduction of localness requirements may lead to a greater concentration of production activity in major centres and that that may diminish career opportunities in the regions. Gillian Martin talked about the talent pipeline for broadcasting being lost. We believe that off-com should seek a sustainable system that provides greater opportunities for people across Scotland. Although the Scottish Government recognises that listeners have more choice than ever, for example from community radio or digital streaming services, that is not by any means a substitute for local commercial radio. There are a number of opportunities for the radio sector and we do not want to see the interests of Scotland and our distinct local communities not fully taken into account. Although we understand that there are challenges in the local commercial radio sector as set out by Jamie Greene, those are genuine, particularly in an increasingly competitive market. It is clear that many people in Scotland consider the loss of localness to be a key concern. Within public service broadcasting, it is difficult to correlate the regulator's position on local commercial radio with a very different direction in television. Broadcasting seems a much greater value that is being placed on encouraging distinct local creative identities and industries and the representation and portrayal of communities across the nations. Off-com itself is reconsidering its out-of-London guidance. We have seen the launch of the new BBC Scotland channel and channel 4 has moved to establish a creative hub in Glasgow and commit to moving a far greater share of production to the nations and regions. We have made our views known to off-com throughout their consultations and will continue to press the case and take every opportunity to work with broadcasters and the regulator off-com to ensure that they recognise Scotland's national needs. When I met Bob Downs, the off-com board member for Scotland earlier this month, I expressed my disappointment with those decisions. I have also written to off-com's chief executive Sharon White outlining our concerns about the decisions and the potential impact on Scotland. At the very least, off-com should monitor performance very closely to ensure that the public value offered by localness is not reduced in Scotland. Jamie Greene I do thank the cabinet secretary for taking me in the intervention. Isn't it the reality though that audiences will vote with their fingers on this issue? If they are not happy with the new network content, if they are not happy with the voices and the playlists coming from London or elsewhere, they will simply switch over. These stations need the advertising revenue that the audience brings. They have already said to committee as they did last week that if they need to make changes then they will reverse some of those decisions. I am quite buoyed by that because I think that actually they need those audiences because they need the advertising revenue. Fiona Hyslop That is the argument that the market is king and therefore in terms of deregulation the audiences will vote for their feet. The danger is who will they turn over to if we have lost that comparison. I think that that is the problem. At that point we will have lost the talent, we have lost the pipeline and I think that is the issue. That is why I think that there is an opportunity genuinely for off-com to pause to consider what the different options are. Regulation of broadcasting is, of course, reserved to Westminster. However, if we had greater responsibilities for broadcasting, we could ensure that proportionate decisions could be taken that recognise the local requirements and wishes of viewers and listeners in Scotland, ensuring that we are equipped across both public service and commercial broadcasting to deliver the best possible output for the people of Scotland. I think that that has been a constructive and engaging debate that has rightly brought the concerns and challenges in the sector to the fore. It has also highlighted the really valuable role that radio continues to have in our communities, our constituencies and in our lives. Listening to the contributions, I think that it is clear that there is broad agreement of the importance of localness in our local commercial radio and the need to protect public interest. However, I think that everybody has been quite realistic about the challenges that are faced. Therefore, there is certainly a wider and continuing debate to be had on that. In closing, I undertake to also send the official report of the debate to off-com for their consideration as well. That concludes the debate, and this meeting is closed.