 Oh, we're live. Okay, I think we're live. So welcome everyone to our second session of the cup off. We are still missing one of our guests, but I'm sure he's going to jump in as we speak. So I can already introduce you. So this is our second session. We had just a super interesting one that you can also watch, of course, if you like. And this one is going to be about social change now and use from the ground. Before we dive into the topic, I would like to thank you all to be here, and especially to my guests, of course, who are marine one gear from extinction rebellion and Johannes fair who's representing dm 25 German electoral wing, as well as actually who's going to join in a second, hopefully he's a political consultant and co founder of the new consensus. And after our discussion there will be Q&A so feel free to drop all of your questions in the YouTube channel and chat and they will be answered after the session them. So I'm just going to introduce my guests very briefly. I'm more rejoined extinction rebellion in 2018. After already working with various migration international development and environmental issues. And there she learned about citizens assemblies and was part of creating extensions rebellions citizens assembly working group. So it was a great pleasure to educate the movement about citizens assemblies and deliberative democracy, and also to guide extension rebellions, messages and actions on the third demand, which is a citizens assembly on climate and ecological justice, which we will also talk about later on. And also the co founder of the XR podcast and host and producer of the rebel radio. Our second guest is Johannes fair. He has studied renewable energy and energy efficiency and is a member of team 25 since 2016. Since 2019 he has been the volunteer coordinator and the ex official member of the coordinating collective of team 25. He was elected to the board of Mara 25, which is teams 25. Just recently yesterday launched a German electoral wing. And while working against the atmosphere that Angela Merkel's council ship has left the country with. He is convinced that beyond capitalism and the depressing status quo, there are many opportunity for change, which is why he is here with us today as well. And I'm also going to introduce Zach. He's not yet here. And just so that we don't have to interrupt for that later on. So he studied social thought and political economy and the University of Mississippi, Massachusetts. I'm harassed and he continues to study at our university Kennedy School of government. During his early career is like already worked as a union organizer for several units. And then in 2015 he was part of the Bernie Sanders campaign as a senior advisor based on this experience. He wrote a book on big organizing that we will also talk about. And he is also the co-founder of new consensus of brand new Congress and justice Democrats. So he was also part of the introducing team of the new deal in the United States. And he is. Hey, so sorry. No worries. Just in time actually I was, I think you heard it right just introducing you. So thank you all for being here. I am really looking forward to talk to you here about this super important topic. So COP26 just finished right and I mean they all underlined the urgency of the crisis how necessary it is to take important measures and change blah blah blah. But at the blah blah blah basically because at the end what where the real outcomes. There were just guidelines but nothing fixed nothing like really concrete that we can be sure it is going to happen and going to be implemented. Which is why we're talking about it here today how can we like create real change and not just use empty words for that. So there are so many movements and advocates and activists trying to offer solutions to work on the solutions and I would say we are all some of them. And we are trying to raise awareness of the urgency of the topic and marine extinction rebellion is one of them and you represent them today. So even though there is so much knowledge about climate change climate crisis and the urgency extinction rebellion has quite low approval rates at the moment. It's around 18% I think, which is, yeah, it's a study from you go and that has just been kind of long. And so of course it's easy for the governments to dismiss the claims that extinction rebellion has as unrepresentative. I would like to ask you, first of all, what is the main claims of extinction rebellions for all our viewers who don't know. And also, do you think that this pretending that it's unrepresentative is one of the main barriers that you face as extinction rebellion, and which others barriers to your face to achieve your goals. Yeah, great questions. So, yeah, we don't pay that much attention obviously to approval rates we're not here to make friends. But, yeah, so I'll tell you a little bit about the three demands so we have three demands in an extinction rebellion. We, there are other extinction rebellions around the world now that have four demands or their demands might be slightly different but when we started extinction rebellion here in the UK back in 2018. These were the three demands. So the first one is to tell the truth, which is essential. If the people in this country or indeed around the world knew how bad the climate and ecological emergency is, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Tell the truth is simply the government, as they promised back in Rio in 1992 to inform their citizens about the impact of climate change. They have to tell the truth about how bad it is not just you know we need to do a little bit of recycling and leave your car at home once in a while. No, we are met facing mass starvation we're met facing massive the potential death of millions of people. We can see now for example in Madagascar where there is now drought and famine directly due to climate change. These are the kinds of facts that we should have been told for the past 30 years already. So that's the first step is for the government to tell the truth and for the media as well to carry their responsibility which again they aren't doing. It's to tell the truth to the citizens of this country to say the situation is this bad and we must take radical steps to navigate through this. So the second demand is act now. So we must act in according to the science and according to the emergency that we are in. Oh, I've just gone off spotlight again. So the demand is to go net zero carbon by 2025. Obviously time is ticking. This was our request or our demand three years ago when we started. But that is the kind of speed that we should be going by and obviously everyone has been very keen to tell us that this is extremely unrealistic. That is not the point. The point is that is extremely urgent. We need to decarbonize immediately. So that is the act now. And obviously it's not just about carbon. It's also about protecting our environment, not cutting down any more trees, that sort of thing. So it's act now stop the harm immediately. And then the third demand, which is kind of the demand that I represent. I'm one of the co founders and one of the coordinators for the citizens assembly working group is that the people must be part of the decision making process on how we are going to do this. And that in the UK anyway is a demand for a government funded but independently run citizens assembly on climate and ecological justice. So that is where the decisions would get made by ordinary citizens through a random selection process. So that in a nutshell is our three demands. Then I think you asked about barriers. I think those at the same time address the barriers. So the barrier is that people simply don't know how bad the situation is. And they're all like, oh, yeah, you know, climate change and it is bad. And I don't think we're dealing that much with climate deniers. We're dealing with climate delay climate action delayism. And that means that people are like, yeah, no, we should do something. But the point is, yes, we should we should be doing it right now. And that is the problem. There is no urgency. And and then the other barrier we're facing is especially in this country here in the UK where we have an extremely conservative government. I would say very, very much right wing, but that is obviously my opinion. And there is absolutely no political will to engage properly with citizens and to take the action that is needed. The government is very much in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry of the corporate industry of the private sector. We have no democracy in this country. It's proportional representation. People often don't bother voting because it's a waste of time. People are extremely disconnected with the people who are running this country, supposedly running this country. And this is a huge, huge obstacle. So I would say lack lack of the truth. There's no truth telling by the government and by the media or media in the UK is also extremely bad and and and the lack of political will. And I think that is a similar issue that you will find extinction rebellions around the world are facing. So I think I'll leave it for there for now. Thank you so much. Yeah, we're going to talk about the Citizen Assembly at a later on, because I think it's super important and also part of the 25 ideas. But I would like to ask you, Zach, you've had a lot of experience in campaigning for a really long time. And you've been part of Bernie Sanders campaign as well that unfortunately failed. But however, of course, you learned a lot about that. And also you were part of introducing the Green New Deal in the United States. So I would like to ask you, do you agree? Like, do you think that was also part of the problem? Why possibly the campaign didn't succeed? And also what were your main outtakes of the campaign you were experiencing? Well, and I hope I hope you all can hear me. I'm in a I'm in an Airbnb and the Internet maybe is having some problems. But if you can, if I'm breaking up too much, just let me know and we can move on to the next person. But I think that, you know, when we're talking about climate change, we're talking about big existential threats that are coming up that are going to take, you know, that are going to play out over the next century. And because they are threatening life on Earth itself, it's, you know, we're having a different kind of conversation than why did this campaign last year fail? Or, you know, could the campaign next year succeed? And so I think it really makes sense to when we're having this kind of conversation to step back and think about how do societies, if we look at the last, you know, several hundred years, what has it taken to allow a society to or a group of societies to make a really huge transformation, the kind of transformation that we have to make happen in the next handful of years if we're going to survive. And the fact is that a bunch of societies on Earth have gone through really massive, really deep transformations on the scale of the kind of transformation that we need to make happen. And this has happened in a bunch of different societies over the last few hundred years. And sometimes it happened in a communist revolution. Sometimes it happened in a capitalist revolution. Sometimes it happened in a kind of weird combination of communist and capitalist revolutions. But a bunch of countries have completely turned their economies and societies upside down in really massive ways. And I think if you look at all of the times that this has happened, it's all had one thing in common. Some people took over the state. And sometimes that happened through democratic elections. Whenever there are democratic elections possible, whenever democratic elections are available, that's the way people have done it. But before democratic elections were available in some countries, people did it in other ways, not just armed revolution, but armed revolution and some other ways. So right now in the world, just about every country has elections. And so we're able to go to the people in the country and try to win an argument for, you know, we need to do this stuff. We need to change our whole economy around. Give us a shot at doing that. Here's the plan to do it. And actually it's going to be amazing. Life is going to be better after this transformation than it is right now. So give us a shot. Let us do this. And I think if you look around the world, the left and progressives are not doing this very well right now. And there's, I think, sort of two reasons. One reason is a lot of people have just given up on the possibility. You know, the system is rigged. The people are too brainwashed or whatever it is. And we're not even going to try. It's not worth it. We can't. It's just impossible to take power through elections. But then the other reason why we're losing is there are a lot of people actually contesting in elections trying to win because they believe they can. The Bernie Sanders campaign was a good example of this. And we're losing because we're just doing a really bad job, you know. And we're just basically going to the people in our countries and making really bad arguments or sometimes making decent arguments but with really bad messengers. And I think Bernie Sanders and his campaigns, they were, they had, both of his campaigns had so many problems. Like Bernie Sanders as a politician trying to lead America and Americans, he's got so many problems and his campaigns were really disorganized and had a lot of problems. I can tell you because I was there. And yet look how close he came. And I think if you look around the world and you can see that these really awful and disorganized right-wingers with all kinds of problems, they're taking power in elections, you know, over and over and over. And there are some, you know, middle-of-the-road neoliberals who are taking power in elections. Sometimes with huge margins. Like look at this thing that happened with Zelensky in Ukraine. It's just one of many examples we could give of this happening where he won with 75% of the vote in Ukraine. And then brought a party in behind him that got just a little bit over 50% of parliament in Ukraine. You know, Macron is another example of this. So why isn't the left able to do this? And I think because the future of the planet and the future of humanity and a bunch of other species are at stake, we, the left, progressives, whatever you want to call yourself, we need to stop making excuses and we need to stop blaming everybody else and stop saying that the right-wing is doing such a good job and that the system is rigged and that the media won't give us the time that, I mean, these are the rules. This is, you know, the revolution is not handed to you on a silver platter. We don't get to determine the conditions that we need to fight in, but we're fighting under conditions that are kind of the most favorable that revolutionaries have seen for hundreds of years. Revolutionaries 50 years ago, 100 years ago and today in many parts of the world, you know, would want to kill us if they heard us complaining that the deck is stacked against us or that the system is rigged against us. So I think because so much is at stake, we need to stop whining and take a hard look at why we're losing campaigns to win over the people in our countries. And maybe if we do that, we'll have some more success next year and the year after. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's a really good point. Even though it's easier said than done probably, because yeah, that's the thing, right? What is the right, in fact, doing differently? And I think one of the parts that has been mentioned a lot in the past months, years maybe, is that people don't listen enough. Like there is not enough like exchange among people that can spread over to political parties and to political systems and to actually reach the people, right? And besides that, obviously, I mean, it is necessary to introduce radical change. And of course, it's more difficult to tell the people you personally will have to step back from some stuff. Then saying, I give you everything you want. Like I'm supporting that, for instance, immigrants should not enter in the country, blah, blah. That's easier said because it's leaving the status quo as it is, right? Whereas radical change is much more difficult to achieve acceptance in general. And if I could say one quick thing too, I just want to say too that I was kind of talking about this one part of the struggle which is taking over, taking state power. But that's not the only thing for people to do. And so I just want to make clear that I super support Extinction Rebellion and all of the other climate striker organizations and other civil disobedience organizations that because they're creating a new world, they're creating fertile ground for political parties to do the work of taking state power. I'm not saying that that's the most important thing, but it's something that needs to happen. And if you look at the changes that some of the climate strike organizations and Extinction Rebellion and in the US sunrise, for example, the actions that these relatively small groups are taking is completely changing the equation for what political parties can do. And I think it's shameful how political parties in most countries, definitely in the United States with the Democratic Party, it's shameful how most of the time what they're doing left and progressive political parties is criticizing groups like Extinction Rebellion or criticizing groups like Sunrise and criticizing politicians on the fringe of the Democratic Party in the US like AOC and saying, if only these people wouldn't make so much trouble, then we would be able to win elections. And that's complete bullshit. The work that the groups like Extinction Rebellion are doing is creating the environment for progressive and left parties to win elections. And I think too often they're just leaving it on the table. Definitely. And also, I mean, a lot of them really are offering or trying at least to offer solutions also as you do in your campaign or the organization that you founded, right? And then still it is not being heard in a way. Actually, I would like to ask Johannes you, because it's a really good transition to this. We just launched a party in Germany, Mera25. How are you seeing this point? How is Mera25 possibly different regarding the criticism that Zach just said? Can you tell us something about that maybe? Yes, gladly. Thanks. First of all, it's a pleasure to be here with you all. This is already started off really interesting and I'm really proud to represent Mera25 and the M25 in this talk and give some thoughts on that. I want to take everyone back a little bit. I myself in 2009, there was the COP 15 in Copenhagen. Back then I was a student. I was studying environmental topics. I was very interested. Climate change was a threat back then. And I was studying not that far away on the German coast in a small city called Flensburg. And we as students back then, we had this enthusiasm to be able to sail to COP 15 with an old sailing ship, do activism, do reporting about it, tell people about the threat that climate change is, and go there. And we were pretty optimistic that Obama had just been elected. We were a little bit foolish maybe and naive, but we were like, OK, this is going to, this time it's going to be different. This was 12 years ago. We did a great, I think, series of activism with many, many other peoples around the world, like it happened now with Fridays for Future, Extinction Rebellion and many others at COP 26. 12 years later. And to be honest, I didn't even expect anything from this COP conference to be coming from it in terms of serious change that we need. And that I think here we all agree of. And that's also why I'm really glad that we called this conference here COP OFF, because I think it's really now, it's the time to get out also of this cynicism that we have at least here, I can tell you from the German elections that now just happened. I followed it. We were not involved. But it was sad. It was really sad to see that there's no party, especially on the left that really has a vision, has something to offer that is this radical new world that we need to create. That is very different from the current capitalistic system, I think, and that has to really rethink a lot of things very profoundly. And there was really no one offering something like that. There was no excitement that I felt. I made my cross on the ballot and it was, you know, I took the least worse option as many people are doing nowadays. And I think we actually, I have to say you, I'm a little bit tired. We just had a full weekend of activism, of party meetings, of a big event launching Meta 25, the German electoral wing of the M25 here in Berlin, in front of hundreds of enthusiastic people. This is only, of course, the first step, but I think this can bring us, I think we need, we are at the point of time where like Zach just said, we need to try everything. There is, of course, the very, very important activism on the street that Xara are doing and many other movements as well, but we cannot shy away from also tackle the institutions directly and being a direct threat to them. Of course, I think this is a little bit different depending on the political system that you are in. For example, in the USA where Zach is, I think it's very hard to find a new party in this two-party system and to do something like that. You need other ways like a presidential candidate that maybe can come from the left and take over. But here in Germany, it is not a two-party system like also the UK. Here we have more opportunities and the thing is also, and I wanted, that was missing a little bit from the conversations so far from my point of view, is that it's not only about climate change. It's also about the huge inequality. It's about our post-colonial system. It's about the extractivism that we have been doing for centuries. All these kinds of stuff, all these points, everything needs to go into the equation and we have been heavily working on a program that is many pages long and represented our ten names for Germany. That is, for example, simple things like a pension, a guaranteed pension for everyone. And this is things I think that can speak to the heart of people, that can also show them what's in it for them. And I think this is how we can convince people that this change is possible. Of course climate change is like an existential threat for humanity and for all of us. But there have been also people that have been suffering for years and they would say, you know, if it's only about climate change, what about my work conditions? Today we finished off the weekend with our community day. We had different people there from the successful, expropriating big land lord companies in Berlin that you actually see a poster behind me from. And we also had the Gorillas Workers Collective people there. That is one of these gig economy apps, this delivery apps that heavily exploits their workers. I've been hearing their stories today, how they tried to found a union, how the union is busted, how they are thrown out of the company. And all these things need to be tackled together. Now with this radical change that we need to protect the climate, I think we also have a chance to tackle all the other issues at once. And convince people that this new world, really a radical different life, that is not worse than the current one. That is better than the current one is possible. And do this on all kinds of ways, also going to elections and offering a radical different program. Thank you. Yeah. Please go for it. I don't know what you want the format to be, Antonia, whether you want to continue asking questions or whether I'm allowed to pop in whenever you want. Okay, I wasn't sure. Just, yeah, because so many interesting things have been said, so I just really wanted to comment on that. And, Zach, yes, I totally agree. There's no point complaining and whinging. I also, with the Green Party, I've stood candidate for numerous things. Last was the London Assembly elections that we have here in the UK. And I, you know, people on the left, I don't know anyone who's whinging. I think it's important, though, that we do highlight the fact that the system is set against us and it's not acceptable that this is just the way it is. The reason why Democrats are elections, you know, we had kings and queens before in the UK kind of feels like we're back there now. We have, you know, a bunch of elite who are running us peasants and, and it really isn't acceptable. And I think the social contract is, is that we elect them, and then they make decisions for us, the people for the common good, and that's not what's happening. So I think, yes, it's not useful to be complaining and we have to get on with it. I completely agree. But I think we do need to highlight the fact that, you know, our media is owned by one multimillionaire super right wing douchebag. Sorry. And that is not okay. You know, we don't have a free press here in the UK. We really, really don't. So, yeah, I just really wanted that to be clear. And also just Johannes, we also have a two parties, two party system here in the UK really, because it's proportional representation. So, you know, we're, sadly, I'm originally from the Netherlands and I can see the contrast really the situation here is not good. Not good. Send help. But yes, and I also really, and Johannes, thank you so much for bringing that up. The social justice issue is so important. And I think we do really need to understand that when we have activists in other countries like Colombia, Brazil, you know, they are actually risking their lives for standing up against. I mean, you know, my experience is mostly with our friends on the front line of climate, but also the people who are standing up against political parties who are fighting for better democracy, they are risking their life. So even though we here in the UK and in the States and in Germany are quite privileged in that, you know, I might spend a night in jail, but that's pretty much it. There are actually people who are in supposed democracies who are actually risking their lives. And then just, I know we're going to talk about citizen assemblies at one point, but Johannes, your disappointment of a party coming out with a plan, I completely agree. I mean, I'm with the Green Party, but I still believe that we need deliberative democracy. What we really need is just for a political party to say, right, this is how we're going to do it. We're going to involve the people and we're going to make a plan together, all of us together. And I think that's the only way we're going to get a plan that is going to tackle the climate and ecological emergency, but also the racism issues, social justice, global justice are historical contributions to the injustices, the crises. So, yeah, I just, that's enough for me. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's a super important point that you mentioned that also we are talking out of a perspective of democratic systems, right? But there is challenges in other, like in the global south, where they are not talking out of democratic systems, but they're really risking their lives for what they stand for. And I think it's important to see that also but also to recognize that all of the struggles that we fight for are global. So we also have to include a global approach, right, because it does not help if one country changes their C2 emissions and the rest of the world does not, obviously. So actually you already mentioned the Citizen Assembly, I would like to jump in there. Maybe briefly explain what is the Citizen Assembly in Extinction Rebellion and how do you think it could be helpful for this, for achieving this transition? Yeah, so, okay, I really struggled talking briefly about Citizen Assembly, so please just like cut me off or mute me. But in essence the decision to demand a Citizen Assembly is because obviously at Extinction Rebellion we're not a diverse group in the sense of we've all agreed that there is a massive crisis, that we are going to have to make massive changes and we're sort of willing to do whatever it takes. But we're in a minority and people are starting to sort of change a little bit, but the changes we need to see are really quite extreme. So to avoid us telling others what to do and to avoid essentially eco-fascism, we really need to not have a group like Extinction Rebellion tell the world what to do. It's actually where we say we give the power to the people and they must come together, but they must come together in a useful mechanism, in a good solid mechanism that we hope will work. And so a Citizen Assembly is where a group of people is randomly selected, so you'd have thousands of invitations go out, it could be done by the postcode database or something like that. There's lots of different ways you can do that. There's extremely clever people who know how to do it. And then you get this sample of people who are like, okay, yeah, I'll come and do this assembly. And then you stratify them so you make sure that it's literally a mini-public of the country that you're doing the assembly in. So it represents gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic background, geographical background, and you could, for example, stratify based on their sentiment about the climate crisis, for example. And then you have them all together in a room. You make sure that there are things like stipends or at least financial support. You do have people who, for example, have shift work who would lose out on being at an assembly for X amount of weekends. That economic barrier is not a reason for them not to attend. So you try and make sure that everyone can attend. They then get training on critical thinking skills. Depending on the subject, they would get the basics. So for example, climate science or biodiversity or ecology, they would get experts to present to them. And they would also get the more personal stories. So we call that rights holders. So people who are already dealing with the emergency. So farmers or people who've lost their home due to flooding or to fires. So there would be lots of presentations from different people. And then there's the deliberation process. And the deliberation process is really key because this is when you have the opportunity to speak to people that you would probably never normally meet in everyday life. You're very much outside of your little bubble. And that's key because that's when you really start to understand where people are coming from. Something that for you is straightforward to somebody else might be completely impossible all the other way around. And this is where kind of the magic happens in this deliberation phase. And you have trained facilitators who sit with the groups to make sure that someone is very loud and speaks a lot that they kind of pipe down a bit. And that someone who's maybe more introvert or someone who needs a translator that they have the opportunity as well to speak. And then they come together with solutions. Either solutions will be presented to them and they can vote on them or they can come up with suggestions themselves. They'll also have suggestions coming in from the public which the public can submit. These all get discussed and deliberated. And then a report gets put together and that would then go to whoever commissioned the assembly. So in the case of Extinction Rebellion what we want to see is that the government commissions this assembly and then takes on the report and uses that as their blueprint so to speak to move forward in this crisis. So that in a very little nutshell is what it is. But yeah there's lots of checks and balances to make sure that this is a transparent process. So I think representation which we really don't have in the UK is key. So it's really ordinary citizens who can take part in this decision making. There's no opportunity for lobbying. There's long term thinking rather than thinking about the next election. So it's long term thinking. And yeah so that's why it's something that we really believe could be the way forward to coming up with solutions that are long time but also fair. I hope that answers your question. Definitely. Yeah thank you so much. It's just so I mean this is not a new idea right? Citizen assemblies have been implemented in some countries already. And I remember in France I think a couple of years ago there was actually a citizen assembly on climate change. And then they were like it was a huge effort. It was a huge idea was it was implemented by the government. And then the outcome of this was really shattering because almost none of the proposals that they proposed were actually implemented. And it seemed like it was basically a joke almost. It depends who you speak to because I was just at the Forum for World Democracy. And according to the French politicians they took on almost all the recommendations. But then according to the critics they only took down 10 that weren't interfered with. So yeah it depends who you speak to but yeah no it was it's very disappointing. Because the outcomes of the assembly were really brilliant. And those citizens I've met a few now are amazing. But yeah it's that next step. But yeah we can spend all night talking about that. Sorry I interrupted you. No it's just I'm I'm wondering like how can we why is it that it is a tool that is so actually it's there. You know like there is facilitators there's approaches it is possible to implement it. Why is it not used and if it is used why does it at the end not turn out to into something real you know. And of course I mean it's also a tool to raise awareness in the out of the bubble that is usually into the topic anyways. I think DM 25 and Mara 25 is also trying to implement citizens assemblies as central part of the of the party. Right Johannes maybe you could share a bit what's your idea on this and how you're going to try to to implement that. Yes gladly. I think this is a really interesting turn off you know this the discussion. I first of all wanted to mention that we said now that we live in democracies here in Europe and U.S. But I think they can also this view can be a little bit of challenged. Because for certain people sometimes you know the democracy doesn't work certain people in Germany for example cannot vote. Actually a lot of people all my partners actually from Portugal. She cannot vote. She works here. There's people who work here for dozens of years and they cannot actually participate in the democratic system. Which is an indicator that it's not as democratic as we think it is sometimes. I also wanted to mention here once in Europe. There's there's Julian Assange for for him. Democracy doesn't work at all. He's actually tortured in a prison cell in London in our free democratic system and faces many years in prison if he's taken to the U.S. And for him somehow his journalism I think challenged the wrong people. It's it challenged the powerful people. And I think that's also the reason why there's a lot of really good concept for citizen assemblies and they have happened and they had great outcomes. But if the things that come out you know take away from the rich or you know challenge the powerful then of course in our current system. These things are not going to be implemented or they are going to give us you know something small for us to maybe you know for them to argue that things have been implemented. The same is actually for the expropriating big landlords campaign here in Berlin was so successful. And actually the only spark of hope in the last German elections because they got a majority of the Berlin voters to agree to expropriate big land or flat owners here in Berlin. The big companies that raise the rents all the time and profit from our rents and you know make living for normal income people and poor people impossible in the city. Now this has to go to parliament to government and to be implemented and there we see. We don't have a majority for it. People voted for it but people don't didn't vote for parties who agree to implement it. And I think there is a lot of solutions. I think in the end we have also a lot of great ideas how to bring insertion into the parliament the parliamentarian process how to have citizen assemblies for sure on the local level to decide about the issues. That occur like building renewable energies around the village. I think the citizens should come together and make a plan for it the same about their local infrastructure all these kinds of stuff should be decided by the citizens and we have great methods for it. But as I said I think we also as Zach said at the beginning we need to somehow in some way take over the power to actually implement these kinds of things. And the media as we know is also in the hands of those people mostly at least to different extent of course in our different states and realities. But in most countries they are the hands of people who have no interest of giving power to people. So this is why we need to organize on all these many ways to make change actually happen. And yeah I think here in Germany we are actually yeah we will try something that is quite crazy to build up a party in a country of 80 million inhabitants. And to face all these challenges of organization of people to also be not just another party. As we say in the M25 this is really important for us we don't want to exist as a party you know for as many parties turn out to you know turn they have their internal views. They are not there anymore for their actual purpose as they should be. And I think in our unique model of having a movement a European movement with electoral wings as tools to implement our ideas. This is the thing that we are trying and I think it has a big chance because the right wings and especially the capitalists they are international. And we as progressives as the left we also need we cannot go back to any nation state. We also cannot exist in the in the European Union as a democratic. So we need to do something transnational to change all of this and this is the attempt that we're doing with the M25 with our electoral wings. And actually as part of the progressive international a global umbrella movement that brings also people from many different continents together because this is also something that we cannot forget about. So this is all complicated complicated of course but in the end it's about us everywhere organizing standing up and challenging the powerful to to get to our right. Maybe Zach you can chime in because you wrote a book about big organizing right. And that could be an effective tool in overcoming the power of the few. Do you think that is something that could be more implemented in this process especially. Well let's see I'm afraid I'm going to come off sounding negative again but but but what you know yeah the book that Becky Bond and I wrote we wrote about we wrote about this idea of big organizing that we tried to implement in the process. We tried to implement in the Bernie Sanders campaign and it was a good tool to mobilize a relatively small number of people in this presidential campaign in the US. You know it was a lot of people was hundreds of thousands of people but that's a very small number of people in the United States in a national election. You know in our weird system you know the Bernie Sanders campaign was a leadership election. You know it was it was analogous to you know the leadership election that Jeremy Corbyn won within the Labor Party and you know it was. So you know we didn't need to win over and mobilize tens of millions of people. We needed to mobilize a hundred you know several hundred thousand people in a really efficient way. And so that it's I feel like like you know Becky and I both feel like there have since we wrote the book. We've run into activists all over the world you know who say great we're going to use these organizing techniques to you know mobilize half the people in our country to win this election. And you know we weren't we didn't really think think it through when we were writing the book but it's it's I really believe that that's kind of the wrong lesson right because to you know the to win a national election. The way that happens is the candidate and the leaders of the party. They speak to the people in the nation and they win them over or they don't win them over right and you know and I agree with everything that you know that that we've said tonight about how the media is is rigged. It's owned by these right wingers and these rich people. At the same time in the United States and in a lot of other countries the these same asshole you know assholes that that own these media outlets. They just really like to sell tickets you know they like views they like to sell ads and and that's how that's why Bernie had a chance. Bernie you know was not ignored by the media the media loved to cover Bernie. They love to cover Bernie for the same reason as they love to cover Donald Trump and that they loved in Brazil to cover Bolsonaro you know. You know there's a corporate media in Brazil but they did not want Bolsonaro to win you know they they thought he was crazy and a joke right but the same thing is what happened with Trump they covered him so much. And had so much fun with him that the people actually gave him a chance. So we're like. Our left politicians and progressive politicians I think that at least over you know at least over the last several decades when they get a shot at getting on the national stage and talking to the whole people. I think there's this kind of like built in defect that the left has where like we believe that we are not of the people and we believe that the people don't like us. And we believe and I'm guilty of this you know in every campaign and every public thing I've ever done in my life I can feel this working through me and. And you know we have to get over this feeling that. You know that that we need to yell at the people and you know that we are somehow against them and that they're against us because it what we're offering. You know if you actually look at the content of what we're campaigning for and what we're trying to accomplish it's so amazingly good. You know it's if if if we could if we in our societies could do what we are trying to do if we could accomplish it and people would be so happy. You know they would live such amazing lives compared to what we are living right now in our society. It would be so good for everybody except oil execs and the truth is it would even be good for them if you look at how they're living. They would have a better time in the after the revolution. So you know so it's yes organizing is so important. But the organizing is I think that the kind of grassroots organizing is important for winning like political maneuvers like leadership elections within parties and also you know again to go back to what I was saying before like stuff like the National Revolution does you know organizing in really effective ways with a very small number of people in just a few moments can change everything for the national for the national debate in a country. You know the there was this one sit in in Nancy Pelosi's office the leader of the Democratic Party in Congress and there was a sit in by like 50 not even 50 it was like 30 activists from summarize and AOC. And that one sit in because of the moment it happened in and because of the way it was done just like blew up the whole debate in the United States around climate change and just completely changed what mainstream politicians thought of as possible. But you know the grassroots activists that sat in that office you know and cause that disruption. It's not within their power as activists in the street you know to take over or to determine the outcome of a national election. The people who have that power are in the United States you know in that moment in that equation where Nancy Pelosi Chuck Schumer you know these are the leaders of the Democratic Party in the US and and they are completely abdicating leadership. They're not even trying. They don't want leadership they don't want to accomplish anything. And you know so it's up to people like you know Bernie and Jeremy Corbyn but not them it's now up to the people in the next generation. You know who can come up and get into that national spotlight. I'm sorry to use you know American and British examples but but you know but there there there's another generation right that's coming up and you know the German elections were incredibly exciting to watch. And it felt like you know there was this I'd be interested you know to know how everybody else on the panel saw it but like it felt like there's this generation coming up. And there was so much potential to just like grab the you know the German people and really open up a whole new discussion or a new set of possibilities and it felt like that it didn't quite happen right and it felt like it could have happened. And you know so this this gender the generation that ran those you know that ran in those parties like in the Green Party in the SPD. You know that can that generation of leaders who are getting the national spotlight in their countries can they step up and actually act like the generation of leaders who are holding you know the future of the world in their hands or not. And right now it really feels like not it feels like they're not going to do that so that's why that's why in the United States we're trying to depose them we're trying to throw them out and replace them with a new generation of leaders. You know like Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Corey Bush and lots of others. Then it'll be up to them. Sorry I went on too long there. I'm glad it isn't me for a change. Can I really quickly say something because my wonderful wonderful colleague Kathy who's my fellow coordinator is on WhatsApp to me. Apparently I said that we have proportional representation in the UK. No we don't. Sorry that's obviously my head being a mess now we have first part. We want proportional representation but we don't. Apologies to the audience. Obviously my brain is a bit scrambled. So sorry about that. Thanks Kathy. We know what you meant. Those are those are nice effects on the live stream. I think I just wanted to build since Zach was speaking about Germany. He felt some excitement. I didn't but maybe from the outside it looked you know it looked better than from from the inside in that case. It's interesting. I wanted to say that I agree. I don't think that this generation in Germany or this actor or this party or organization that can bring this this change that we need is there at the moment that can excite people that that can you know bring people together and on all kinds that struggle about all kinds of different issues. And I think that unfortunately I think it's going to get worse. But that also means that more people will be seeing that you know there needs there needs to be something that that's going that needs to be changing. So I think that is also then going to be yeah bring bring the necessary threat for change in the end. And I think then I'm also actually hopeful and I'm optimistic that there will be new people that will stand up because you know we're not just going to sit at home and going to hell if we are going to do something about it. And we are for sure I think not you know we'll learn from history hopefully and not let the right wingers win. And we're going to build a new future. I think there's definitely the potential for it and there's this speaking from the from the event that we had yesterday with really positive feedback afterwards from the participants. There is this need and this this this search for hope and for good ideas and for this prospect of positive change. It's definitely there. Thank you. Yeah, I also completely agree. I just it's so difficult to to understand like how can we actually achieve that this generation does really get the spot then as well. And also commenting on the German election. I think in Germany it's also a very specific case right because even if the Green Party had more votes than they got as it was actually expected. As it is a system where they're most of the times collisions. They always have to step back with their demands and that's what's happening and that's why it cannot be really radical. The parties always have to cooperate with each other and then at the end the most radical positions most of the times are taken back anyways. Which makes it in the case of Germany even more difficult to to actually promote a real change just on that note. So so yeah maybe we can just the Greens forget about them in theory in theory. This is why I think the whole concept of party politics just isn't it just especially in the context of the climate and the ecological emergency. It just it's just nonsense. You know it doesn't matter if you're right wing or left wing or somewhere in the middle floating around and not sure what the house going on. This is an emergency and I just think if you know if this was an impending war if we were about to be invaded then everyone would be like yeah it doesn't matter. Let's get together and you know defend ourselves and fight or whatever. And essentially that's what we're facing now. It's just that people don't see it again because you know we haven't got the leadership telling us that this is how serious it is. And and that's why we're sort of fighting amongst each other. You know I've been in horrendous debates with with conservatives that they've been rude and horrible and you know I just couldn't believe it. And and I just think this is not this is not what we need. We need to step beyond the fact that I might be a tree tree hugging hippie from XR and the Green Party. You know and that you're a horrible conservative who loves driving is four by four. We need to come together and meet in the middle and come to a solution. That's why I'm really concerned about party politics and I don't know how we get rid of it in this. You know I think for now we have to just deal with as Zach is saying we have to just deal with the system we've got and try and save as many lives as we possibly can. But but it does show that the system as as it is now is really no longer adequate and and I don't know what the answer is. I certainly do believe in deliberative democracy but how you would change the whole government structure and how that would look. I don't know. I mean you obviously still need to have people in longer term positions. But yeah I think it's definitely something we need to need to think about although again we have this time pressure. We don't really have time to start reshape reshaping democracy but maybe we do. I don't I don't know. Well there's could I say something to that. Of course. I mean I think there's there's always this you know the system isn't working right and the people in the system aren't working. And so then that leads to this conclusion which makes a lot of sense which is like this system is broken. We can't have we can't have this system. But as a you know as a practical matter it's like we've had in a in a bunch of countries in the world we've had the same basic system for a long time. Well not that long in the scope of human history but we've had it for a bunch of generations in a bunch of countries. And the you know and and there have been many many times when the the two parties or the five parties or whatever have not been able to solve the big problems in the society. That's happened over and over and over in fact that's like the way our societies are most of the time. But then what happens is a handful of leaders you know managed to get into positions of power and then they have a conversation with the country and they say hey we're in this bind let's do this thing. And sometimes it's a really terrible really evil right winger who's having that. Oh no wait a minute sorry I did the I did the thing I shouldn't have done on the live stream and lost the window. There we are OK sorry. And you know sometimes it's a really horrible right winger or fascist you know genocidal maniac who takes over the country and has the conversation with the country right and and organizes them to do a bunch of really really horrible stuff. But other times it's a really nice social democratic you know person who kind of values human rights and a bunch of other good stuff. And sometimes it's a really ambiguous figure you know like you know I mean a really weird and interesting case to look at is that I'm constantly fascinated by is the case of South Korea and Park Chung-hee you know who was not a great guy killed a lot of people trampled on a lot of human rights. And at the same time had that conversation with the people of his country and said let's build an economy that works for everybody. And you know they built a capitalist consumer economy that I bet we here on this call you know are not going to be cheering for. But at the same time they were really deliberate about building you know national development all over the country and built a very equal society where you know people became you know pretty healthy you know and prosperous. You know and then they kind of went down the neoliberal path and that's how we got squid games right. So but but you know it's that it there's no way around it like that's the way it works now maybe in the future. We'll have a whole new system and and maybe you know millions of people you know I have a lot of friends who belong to one or another kind of socialist or communist party and they really believe that any day now there's going to be this big and and like millions of people rise up and it'll be like the spontaneous citizens assembly. You know like the Soviets you know across the Soviet you know across Russia you know and Eastern Europe and even parts of Germany. You know back in the beginning of the 1900s and and you know those were the Soviets that's where the Soviet Union got its name from it from these citizens assemblies that rose up. And that's what they couldn't they couldn't find a way to hold power. There was a state you know the whole world is organized in states these states have been around a while they have a lot of power they can have all the power. And once you know somebody walks into that building that has the state power they are then calling the shots and just a few people sitting in that building over and over and over for hundreds of years. Just a few people sitting in that right building whether it's the White House or you know whatever your number 10 Downing Street or whatever. If you're if you're sitting in there you tend to have more power than how many millions of people protesting in the streets it doesn't matter. Right that's why we went to war in Iraq just despite you know millions and millions of people protesting in really serious ways in the United States and all over the world. You know and you know we can go through a million other examples like that. So I just I feel like you know there's it's it's it's fine if tons and tons of people you know come to the conclusion that party politics are a waste of time. And if they're protesting and you know building building up power outside of party politics and outside of the state that is actually really good right we want that we need that we need that to happen. But I think that we're going to lose the century if nobody you know does it you know the party politics and it's it's not just that we need some people to go in and do party politics. We need some really smart really passionate really determined people who will not give up until we save the planet. You know we need those kinds of people and right now I feel like we have an imbalance where the kind of people that are you know that are desperate to save the world. You know the kind of people that really feel it in here you know I know you three and most of the people watching us are that kind of person. Right where we feel it in here and we just can't get over it and we're just losing our minds until we figure out a way to save the planet. We need some of those kinds of people to do the boring work of taking state power because it's it's just not going to happen any other way we're not going to solve. We're not going to restructure you know there's there's five billion machines on the planet that are that are destroying the planet. We need to dismantle those five billion machines and you don't do that by protesting in the streets. You do that by you know having a really well organized state and economy and a whole bunch of big corporations and all kinds of other stuff to actually go to work and do the work of dismantling those. All those machines and replacing them with machines that don't that are not destroying the planet. So so I just hope that I went on to learn again so you're totally off the hook margin you're completely exonerated so great. But yeah I really love it when there's somebody who talks more than me on a call like this. But what you're saying it would be amazing. The problem is it's just not going to happen not in this system not in this way. What if Bernie or Corbyn had just been a little bit better at campaigning and not so idiotic about certain things. He's not going to he wasn't ever going to save the environment. I mean you know but when I'm canvassing for the Green Party people are literally saying I would love to vote for you but it's a waste of my vote. I have to vote Labour otherwise the Tories get in that is the system that we're working in. So you know we have some incredible Green Party candidates. I really shouldn't be talking about party politics when I'm representing exile because we're meant to be a broad church. But for example you know and there's great Liberal Democrats and there's great Green Party and there's great you know. But but it's never going to happen in the UK you know because we have this first pass the post system. So you know we're sort of looking we have to look beyond the system because otherwise we are literally going to be up to our armpits in the water from the Thames before someone's like oh yeah let's do something. You know which which we're pretty much already are to be fair. I mean we've had severe flooding here. So so I wish we could do what you're saying that someone amazing is going to step up and they're going to take it. You know then we can all go home and stop being on the street all day every day. But it's just not going to happen. No we have to stay on the street. We have to stay on the street otherwise they won't do it. But it's not going to be on the street all the time. Johannes you also wanted to say something I think. Yeah I now the now the discussion is getting interesting because of the because I don't know I am I think I sometimes disagree with this. I mean yes the climate change is this exit existential threat for a majority of the humanity. Maybe there's the 1% who can you know go to Mars or something and escape. But for most of us it's this threat. But I think these things have happened before in very different ways of course it's not directly comparable. But there have been states where there was apartheid and there has been slavery. There has been a world colon colonial system where people have suffered for centuries and were exploited in the worst kind of way. And you know this this existed for for some time as well as you know I'm coming from from a country where the Nazis took over at some point and where we all know where it ended. So I think you know with climate change approaching us there there everything is possible. You know in a system that now also at the same time goes into some kind of new feudalism where very few people have a lot of money especially now through the pandemic it got actually got a lot worse in that regard. So and in the end then it's going to matter who is going to make the change if it's going to be a lot of people from the bottom. If it's going to be some right wing organizational leader taking over and you know building a new kind of world where maybe you know it's going. Everything can happen and I think it really matters what we do and I think we cannot you know disregard the party politics system in states that we are living in where we actually have that possibility. We should go over this cynical state of you know this is not mattering of course we also need to be on the streets we need to demonstrate even if we would make it into power. We would have and this is something that for example I heard Ada Colau and her people in Barcelona say when they went into power when they took over the mayorship of the country and not the country the town. They they actually called on their supporters to stay on the street because even if you're in government there's in the state there's institutions that have been built for years that are also pretty unflexible for making quick change happen. So you know you need this pressure from the outside anyway even if you make it into into state power and yeah I think we are we are going to come into a situation with this kind of imbalance in ownership and you know of of economic imbalance. And at the same time we will have to stop using fossil fuels and everything literally everything in our countries is built on that. So if we do that and in some way or the other we will have to we will come into situations or we might come into situations if we don't make change happen before. That will be that that can end in war that can end in very bad scenarios. So we will we will face the scenarios where where radical change is then also going to be a possibility. Yeah I think either way just to chime in and then we also have to wrap it up a bit because it's almost time and I have some questions asked. So yeah Marine maybe you can just chime in and. Yeah I completely agree with with Johannes I think you know we are at some stage going to face a situation where it's not up to us we can be like yes it's as an assembly so people are like well no I'm I need food I need fresh water I haven't got anything everything's on fire you know we're thinking worst case scenario here. And I think that's why Extinct Rebellion wants this urgency now that we tell the truth now that we act now that we have a citizen assembly now while we're still in a relatively functional society rather than we wait until disaster strikes where you know it's going to be chaos. And we won't have a choice and then I agree I mean the whole concept of party politics politics full stop will probably be completely out the window. So I think it's really important that we we try and get these fair and just solutions it and I mean for me personally you know I'm not even talking about solutions anymore I think we're past that point now we need adaptation and we need to think about how how we're going to make it least terrible for as many people as possible and I think you know if you speak to people in Madagascar they're there they're there they are in the climate ecological emergency. For them it's it's a moot point you know that they're they're already there so I think I think this is the urgency that we're dealing with and that's why we're so desperately trying to bring about this change now and especially specifically in our third demand we're not saying we want to replace the government want to get we're saying look government you clearly can't handle this. Have a citizen's assembly let the citizens help you and we can make fair and just transitions that is what we're saying now and then after that we can see about you know getting getting a whole different system and whatever. But but I think for now just because of the situation that we're in we really do need urgent transition because otherwise there's going to be a transition that we have absolutely no saying at all we can't plan or or do anything anymore. So yeah. Just a quick one in the end just a call to action to everyone listening you know because I think. Yes you should go out on the street and especially in your local community in your national circumstances you should go out on the street and demand and ask your government to do things. But I think it's also the time where you should really you know try all kinds of methods and maybe you know search. What what is a party in your country that is representing your views and then try it also that way. You can leave that party afterwards you know I have done that shortly with the social democrats in Germany once because I wanted to vote against the last great coalition that we had. Because I saw a slight chance that maybe the membership of the social democrats gets it. It didn't work. It was a complete failure. I wasted I don't know 12 euros on a membership fee for a month to vote no on the coalition treaty on the last one. But anyway I tried and I think you know we need to try this kind of stuff. And if you're listening and you're in Germany go to Merade25.de and join us. Yeah two things. So I agree I think also it's trial and error right and I mean that's also what the the original new deal was based on it is we try and then we see if it works and it doesn't work. We try something new but we don't do nothing we don't just sit and wait. And I think also we would all agree here to say there is going to be a change and it's going to be radical. Now we have it more in hand how it's going to look like. But if we wait and wait and wait and nothing's going to change it's going to be so radical and we can have no influence in how it's going to be shaped because it's so urgent and things are going to be so bad that we cannot influence them anymore. So like it's radical with influence or it's radical but disastrous and in chaos. So maybe that's also something people have to think about because something has to change in any case sooner or later. Anyways. So maybe that's my final word I would like to ask you for your final words. And then I have one questions I'm also calling the YouTube people who are watching if they have any questions now is the time to put them in the in the chat. And maybe is that you can start with your your final words. Oh, I've had so many final words let's just get on to the questions I'll pass. I guess I did my final words also with the last statement. I really I really think we should try everything and I'm but I'm convinced everything can be different. There's a new whole new world out there that is not capitalistic that is completely beautiful. So I think everyone needs to get involved also of course depending on everyone's capacity. I know if you're you know working in a shitty job for for hours and hours and hours your time might be limited and your capabilities. But anyway in some kind of way you can get involved and I think you know changes possible so let's do it. Yeah, I think I would just echo that like the worst thing you can do now is sit at home on the sofa and do nothing that is the absolute worst thing you can do. So whether you decide to join Extinction Rebellion or or join your local political party or something completely different. Please please don't sit at home and sit back and watch this happen because that that is that is how we got in this situation in the first place. Just yeah please get active in whichever way you can and obviously people living in countries where this is much more dangerous to do please be careful and look after yourself. And and if there's any way that we can platform things for you from our place of relative safety then you know that is also I think some responsibility that we very much carry and if there is anything we can amplify for people who who can't do it then then I think that is something important for us to do as well. So yeah. Thank you everyone. I just want to use the opportunity as well to say if you want to get active and you like this talks and you want to you know like get onto it in an active grassroots movement. I would like to enjoy to invite you to join DM 25. We will also recap on the sessions that we have here during the couple of conference to actually transform them into policy ideas and to have something real out of the whole conferences that we're doing here. So the technical team is posting the link where you can check out the program. The this is the last session for Jay but there's going to be an X one tomorrow, starting at four Central European time. And yeah, we are happy to see you in in discussions and in the movement. So there's actually just one question seems like we have been very clear with everything. And that is direct to Zach and that is that you said grassroots and movement are crucial in paving the way for party politics. Do you and also the others see others ways in which other ways in which they can and need to prove essential for broad based political representation. Well I mean you know organizing is always good. You know the more people we can get organized the better and and you know it's just that I feel like we've over corrected. There was there was a long time when people in electoral politics for example we're just not paying attention to doing really good meticulous organizing and but now it's sort of like it's people are seeing sort of grassroots door to door organizing as this kind of be all an end all of how to you know how to change the leadership of your country. But it's it's I don't think it's really actually meant for for that you know like it's it's impossible to knock on every door in the country and to talk to everybody behind those doors and have an impact on how they're going to vote. If you just do the math and a lot of people don't like to think about this but if you do the math. You know the biggest grassroots movement in an electoral campaign is only going to influence a very small number of people on the doors. But if you think about you know the parties in your country you know maybe you're in a country where you can start a new party. Maybe you're in a country where where like the UK and the US where you know you could start a new party or you know but it's very difficult but to break through but you can also try to mess with an existing party and maybe create a new party by existing with the by messing with an existing party and those kinds of things that kind of interparty politics. There's way fewer people to influence and so you know it's it's kind of like when you're doing direct action on the street you know you block a bridge. It gets tons of news because you've inconvenienced a million people and the media know where to go and they have a story about this bridge got blocked. Well it's the same kind of thing if you can figure out how to nominate a different leader for the party. If that nomination process is controlled by 10,000 people or 500,000 people you can that's the kind of thing that you can aim a grassroots organizing campaign at and do something with. And you know I take everything that we've said on this call you know I think it's all really make sense and it's all really smart but at the same time I think if we want to save the world we have to believe in miracles. Right so you know believing that like there's a chance that citizen citizens assemblies can can rise up all over the place and have a big impact I believe that that's possible. You know and I also believe that it's possible that somebody who's really determined and you know a handful of people who are really determined and are not going to quit you know and can be good leaders on a national level that they could get in charge of a party or start a party. A successful party in some country. I believe both of those kinds of miracles are possible. And you know I think grassroots organizing is you know important an important ingredient to pull off either. But we cannot spend the rest of our lives walking from house to house knocking on doors. That's not the way to change your country. It's not the only way. There are a lot of questions that I would like to ask now but I think we have tonight. Thank you very much for being here. I think we can say this was a really fruitful discussion and let's close it with the words that let's make the miracle happen right let's make us believe that it happens and act for it to actually do. Thank you all for watching and also for my guests to be here. Thank you so much.