 Okay, we've got time for just a little bit of open season here for the panelists themselves So there's four of them They've got us started with their positions and now I'm going to let them actually kind of tear into each other a little bit Sharpen each other up. Okay. We are driving here toward Application so just bear that in mind as you sharpen each other's ideas also deal with the implications as well So I'm gonna leave this time to you as there's somebody who'd lead us off with a question for one of the other panelists I have a question Kevin for you. You just told us to make technology inconvenient Doesn't that fly in the face of technology itself? That depends a lot on what your aim is in Utilizing these technologies in the first place so My wife would look at me really weird if I brought the garage tools into the kitchen and I think that's the way we should think about the way that these other technologies are pervading our lives and keeping them in The right places for their appropriate uses So why not just leave it alone? Why don't have why have technology at all if you want to be inconvenient sure, okay? So technology is a way that we are subduing the earth We're creating tools by which we can harness creation and and and we can we're opening up all sorts of capabilities and and that's a good thing I see that as a as a very connected thing to God's commandment to subdue the earth but let's make sure that we are doing that in a way that's consistent with the principles that Jesus himself has given us Chris I have a question for you and Related a little bit to what? Kevin brought up and something that is important to me and that is the purpose and context of life is relationship It's a statement. I Say a lot when I speak on it Relationship being the purpose and context of life and in my my wife works in a early childhood education in Secular firm and they are always saying that education Should be in the context of a relationship. This is a secular organization They say the best education that happens relationship based and you alluded to using the Internet show or maybe a YouTube To look at woodworking Okay, and so my assumption is that you are willing to develop or going to enter into a relationship With someone it's a parasocial relationship with a woodworking expert as opposed to a relationship with the real person Who knows woodworking is that? What are your thoughts I? Think that's a great question. I think that what you're asking about is Sort of a subversion of the traditional hierarchy parents children and so on and so forth But to be frank you mentioned Socrates and reading reading already does that you go to a library You have the ability to engage with the minds of philosophers past present dead gone so If we've accepted books and we all have I Think that It's far too late, you know, it's already here that that subversion is already here There's already a way to subvert I do think there is something to be said about the different ways of learning and the different types of learning so I'm sure we all know can aesthetic learners visual or oral learners and in fact for some people visually seeing a Sculpture a Carpentry sculpture may be more conducive to their learning than simply step one step two step three so I think that The subversion of these power structures are already here and subversion is perhaps a too strong of a word. I think that You mentioned relationships relationships are more than just a hierarchical family unit And so if you're not necessarily able to handle any sort of relationship outside of that family unit Maybe there's a deeper problem there Okay, what I'm aiming at though something that happened in my own happened to me my own life is my Deciding to I Guess the first course of action when trying to get help Going to the internet as opposed to going to a human being and in your woodworking Business or your desires to learn woodworking It just seems to me that a first step ought to be who's a real human being that can teach me In which I can develop a relationship with as opposed to working on the internet in which I'm Developing a relationship with someone that does that's not there. You're developing the relationship With someone you don't know Parasocial relationship and so that's my anyways my Point I push back at I think it's more profitable for the human being rather than a device Yeah, I agree ultimately Human interaction is how God made us and nothing beats human face-to-face interaction. I just don't necessarily think it's it's an inherent evil You know generally if I were to pick something up like that it would be it could be any other hobby playing the guitar There could be a teacher, but it may be after a long day of work I've got maybe 30 minutes, you know, just can't necessarily call someone over. I think that's the same as reading a book Is it possible that we could approach this question from the standpoint of good better best? So if if it's necessary to acquire a new skill and there really is no one accessible to me that can teach me that skill then You know, it's still good for me to find this information Somewhere but it's not good if I am circumventing or avoiding these natural opportunities for these opportunities for natural relationships one of the really interesting things about technology and One of the Realizations experts especially secular experts are making is that technology itself and our use of it Has a formative effect apart from the content So content is important what you're looking at is significant and media is obviously part of that However, the use of the medium itself has a formative effect too So we've got to be aware of that we've got to learn how to see that effect and how to decode it and respond to it So let's move on if there's any other questions or things you want to direct at each other Kevin Sure, so I have a question for you Gary you talked a lot about accountability and I would just say that the general feel I got from your suggestion sounded like something that should be thought about and Incorporated by a church leader a church leadership at least generally with how our communities function and so what would you say to somebody out here who's who may be from a church that? Really isn't prepared or isn't inclined to handle things the way you're describing and is saying I need support I need accountability. I need someone to walk with me. What should I do? It's a great question and also a difficult one I do think the first plan of action should be going face-to-face and talking to that leader Do it umbly and give time even for change I don't think change has to happen overnight sometimes in our youth We assume that that because it's so clear what needs to happen needs to happen now There needs to be respect in that process But I don't think we should back off from doing that going ahead and laying down Our request how we're seeing this thing One of the burdens. I think that young people put on on leaders is this is the leaders aren't sure how committed the youth is To their group to their congregation And I think a young man should commit himself, so he should he should be able to say that I'm here with you I'm not running off if you answer this question wrong. I'm with you, but this is my burden It's much easier for a leader then to give good advice if he first senses there's commitment here Instead of I've got one foot over here and one foot over here and you tell me the wrong answer And I'm out of here. That's that's difficult for a leader I'd like to just touch on again the the question of accountability with this pretty pervasive problem of pornography even within the Christian community and that is the the fear that men have of exposing themselves And the fact that there can be repercussions You know we're in this sort of an aside we're in this upside-down paradigm now where Media technology has made what was completely private now possible of being completely public worldwide At the same time where what used to be hard to do like look at a magazine is so easy on my iPhones We have this upside-down situation But again that I'd like you to address what do we do about the fear that men have of it admitting and owning up to Such a danger to themselves and to to the families and to the church I Push on this some in the book church matters I Think it's essential and I understand that part of what I'm asking for here is a change in how we do church and That's scary But I really think that that leaders have to be vulnerable They have to be willing themselves to go to hard places They have to be willing themselves to be vulnerable about their own lives about their own shortcomings If a leader isn't willing to do that It's me very difficult for someone to feel comfortable coming to them So they can alleviate a lot of fear simply by being open about their own struggles their own difficulties I understand that can be overdone, but I think there has to be an element of that involved Thanks, Kerry. We have time for one more question, and then we need to engage the great questions that we have from you all There's nothing on the tip of your minds Let's move into the questions So we've tried to pull these questions together There's a good many of them So we've tried to pull them together into some lumps or categories so that at least if we don't answer your question directly We might hit on it by addressing some other questions as our hope Probably don't have time to get through them all, but we'll do our very best. So first I'll just start you off with softball Mac or IBM No, I'm kidding Let's start off with this question instead. So the question is What is considered social media? WhatsApp Voxer and then the broader question. How is this affecting us? I think a good definition that we can use can be We can think about a family So you have your nuclear family your mom and your dad then you have your children Then you have your extended family your cousins and so on and so forth I think a definition of social media that we can use that might be appropriate is a Family that is another layer outside of the extended family It's more superficial It's pretty much entirely superficial and The social aspect is you feel like you're a family when you're not really Yeah, I would say it's a mediatization of friendships and actually the medium That's used similar to what you mentioned earlier There are the effects the medium has on us Formative effects biases With logics they call media logic which infiltrate us, but they also shape the relationships they get shaped and The social media I think starts to again change relationships into a mediated form of relationship But it the relationships themselves Maybe on face value look good like many friends He calls me so call himself a friend, but it's interesting in the scholarly realm of those studies that are out there that they're pretty much a conclusion that your social media friends aren't social media if they aren't friends when they Do all sorts of Experiments when someone gets in trouble who's there to help them and it's almost never a social media friend It's always the person who's proximal So something to look at in that Maybe a follow-up question on that is How do you relate to peers who are you could say addicted to social media? Not through social media I would say first and foremost relate to them in real life and as naturally as possible and you know, some of us are more comfortable being forceful than others but Perhaps you can say to that friend who you're struggling to Make meaningful connections with hey, I'd like to take you out for coffee and by the way leave your cell phone behind I want to have a face-to-face deep conversation with you and think about what you want that conversation to look like I Think one of our challenges with an issue like social media is We like an issue to be black and white and many times we try to push every issue into black and white So social media for example there are strong feelings about this issue But there are legitimate reasons for social media I Work with people in restricted countries. They use it simply because it's encrypted. I can communicate with them back and forth But the problem with that is as soon as we say it's not wrong then we have people using it for wrong reasons and and to me if I Personally do not use social media for anything other than business. I'm not interested in finding out the details of everyone's life I furthermore think it's extremely unhealthy to a congregation For someone to be constantly transmitting what they're doing all the time There's something very egocentric about that it might feel good to the person But if they would simply consider from a kingdom perspective the amount of time they're taking in other people's lives in all the details of the daily life that they're transmitting on I For reports and I did interviews with people and every time some and in particular women are worse at this But every time they turn around they want to tell somebody about it and if they have 50 people on their on their list Someone's getting ding ding ding all the time Imagine that the the the wall that's putting up what it's stopping in that community with regard to reaching out and blessing other people So just because it's good in some situations does not mean the thing is is right There's a wrong perspective of this as well, and I think it's extremely powerful I think we need to be very warned about it. I think social media can be very deadly in our communities We need to be communicating face-to-face and and not as much on social media Let's move on Sorry, there's a lot to say there I'm gonna throw a hand grenade in and here's the question Can the internet be safely used or is complete abstinence the best option? I think as I mentioned before It's here. It's here to stay There's a large portion of us here that are already on the Internet. I Don't recall who said it. Maybe it was Brian. Someone said something that was very interesting He said the Anabaptist people are very good at abstinence, but we're not so good at moderation And I think that that's an important thing that we need to consider I think it's too late, you know, we're on the train. Someone also said the train's taken off I think it's a bit too late to say can we abstain because it's Insidious pervasive everywhere whatever words you want to use it's almost inescapable I believe the internet can be safely used in many of the same ways that the library can be Very useful. However, let's just be honest about the fact that very few of us struggle with overuse of our local library Yeah, I think it can safely be used I think it has to do with the attitude of the user and that is to absolutely minimize Wasteful wasteful use Minimize detrimental use and be aware of it be cognizant that I have a possibility of just wasting my time wasting other people's time Atrophying myself aware of that and I then seek to Optimize my own development Constantly are always developing and to make sure that the internet is not a hindrance to that It can be a help. I mean, I have you saw my list of reasons. Yes, please Yeah, thank you I'll tag another question along with that One of the ways that technology is really Changed the way we live is in families Okay, and it's changed how children are raised. It's changed how young people spend their time It's changed the level of interaction that parents can give or what they feel like they can give their parents or to their children So the question here is how do we as parents lead out with the revolving door of technology? Especially with our youth who are normally adapting faster than we are I think the best way to lead out in The area of technology is to lead out period So be the kind of person who is living an inspirational life Who has a value-centered life who is living with all the gusto that you can for the Lord Jesus and for his kingdom and his Causes and and I think that you know as you're doing that That many of these questions many of these problems and dilemmas will fall into their proper places and perspective Kevin What do you do when as a parent you have no idea what's out there and so You're leading you have your children's heart But you don't have a discerning metric for what's good bad right or wrong with respect to anything technological So how do you you know again? Do you abstain or how do you moderate? So I think one of the most significant effects of technology is the relationships and attachments that it creates between people and devices But there's also other kinds of vices. There's also other kinds of vices related to relationships and we all know That you know peer relationships can be very damaging whether or not technology is in the picture And so I would say the best thing to do as a parent is to approach this like you would any other kind of relationship problem and Seek to capture the heart of your children seek to know your children to understand them to communicate love to them to get to the place where they can trust you and if This is a difficulty for you, then it should probably be your number one focus in your life I'm not a parent so answer your question to some extent. I guess more practically speaking What is what does that mean? But how do you how do you show that? What are some steps that you do? I think you mentioned you have a cell phone area where cell phones are There and only there what other sort of things? Sure, so one of the biggest things I think you can do is Be the kind of person who's putting intentional practices into your life to make connections with your children There's a lot. There's a lot else that's required behind this But there's something very beautiful about sitting down for a meal To gather as often as possible as a family and engaging each other in positive ways around that meal There's also there's also a whole host of other things that you can do To make meaningful connections with your children take time for your children read to them if they're young you know, maybe take them out to eat if they're older and And really pursue their hearts. Don't let the the precious years Waste away without Actually making them a priority. I'm sorry. I'm not talking about I apologize I'm not talking about technology because I just really don't think that it's an essential for a parent to be in the know How about technology in order to effectively combat the pressures that their children are facing through the technology because You will engage with them as you actually engage with the hearts of your children Here's a challenging question. Okay, one more one more thought on that Because of the two parts to this to this issue and the first is I think children should be grounded in reality and the internet is an alternate reality There's so much false fake fabricated Information out there and those children can't tell between real and false at those ages. It's immaturity That's what immaturity is and then misunderstanding of reality And so they're now basing their world views their interpretation of true reality Based on the internet if they're on the internet, it's it's input the same with entertainment when children and entertainment they then are interpreting reality their future interpretations based on their memory of of entertainment even the American Psychological Association says no screen time before two years old No screen time. It's too damaging for the child Okay, because it's that's the second issue that it the screen time the technological screen time formats the mind Aside from what nature does in forming or natural reality forms the mind And the problem is at those ages their mind is changing so fast That the little entertainment the little internet interaction they have has a long-term impact One more quick thing if I could say this about this. I would like my father to stand up please So unless you misunderstand me, I'm not trying to sit here and give advice as if I'm an expert parent I'm just repeating what my father did for me. Okay, so if you need a face to talk to there's a lot of good fathers here But if you need to face to talk to about how the parent your children That would be a good one. I think sometimes we underestimate also the fact that many of our youth are creating leadership There's a home in our community where they invited Young people and I think it was every Tuesday night just children youth from the community to come in and They wanted just to have time with them build relationships with them reach out to them They had a basket right inside the door and had a sign-on that said this we like social More than media put your phones here These were young people that were not coming from Christian homes But they all obediently shut off their phones and put in the basket and enjoyed an evening without it So sometimes we think that that leadership won't work, but I think sometimes we have youth that are actually craving real relationships We have time for just one final question here. I'm going to make this as practical specific as I can now that you know, there's There's concern anymore about the the really addictive nature of smart phones just as a platform With studies saying that you know the the average Power user of a smartphone is touching their phone something like 5,000 times a day So something about the platform there that really wants to get your attention. It wants to suck you in I Just make this as practical as I can I guess where have you seen? smartphone use Done well and what are some of the practices that you've observed? Creative ideas like when you come to our house. We're going to have supper put your phone in the basket. It stays out there Things like that anything that you can you can roll out of your memory here that say that that seems to have worked I would say this roll roll briefly When I was doing interviews That's one thing I observed was that that youth who are doing well typically have older people who have built Relationships with them and there's leadership there. It's not it's not older people just turning them loose Neither is it older people just saying no, but they're working with them through this process I think that's very important Gary a lot of the time People that are my age there's this disconnect in terms of age and then there's this disconnect in terms of technology and often we hear Know all the time and so what ends up happening is There's something that's very jarring here's this person that I'm supposed to look up to and respect and yet They seem to be keeping me at a distance so to speak so I think that the formation of those relationships are very important and I think also to Speak to the question I think we can use a practical example of how us four panelists kind of engage this panel We did use technology Joel presented us with an initial email all introducing each other We exchanged ideas and thoughts back and forth via email Then we had a conference call. We tried to have a conference. We tried to have a conference call. I Guess it was successful because we're all here so and During that we used it as a medium. It was something that we Could have you know talked endlessly for hours about idle things, but we used it for a purpose and We had a purpose in mind when we were using it And I think that as I mentioned before are we going to just be consuming content with these mediums? Or are we going to is there some end to this technology that that's fulfilling my purpose That's fulfilling the call that Jesus has put on my life a Couple things on that, you know, there's interesting studies coming out now that Social media use is related to lowering IQ very interesting to find that because of the shallow levels and That was another point. Sorry What I what I want to say is sub doing this media Subdoing it through Ordering your life and what has worked for me. I don't always do it But for great periods of time, I will do this I have my at the end of my devotion time in the morning I have my to-do list and I have my to-don't list My to-don't list sometimes that includes you know what? today No, and I will say I will I will do this sometimes some and it makes some people mad unless I have something urgent coming ringer off No internet to from 8 in the morning till 8 at night. I have too many Too many important things to do too many things. I can't let this thing distract me So let's be focused deep and that's what they're finding. That's what I brought that up now I remember why is that we're in this scattered mindset now by the Internet technology pinging us and it's Creating people that cannot focus and go deep and think thoroughly Okay, that's the IQ issue and so I've decided no I'm not gonna let this Turn me into a shallow person. I subdue it. I have times when I look at it Sometimes I don't look at it. I'll pick a time now for this hour at lunch time I need to do some shopping for a certain things. I'll do that then stop it But I'm not letting it rule me That's all we have time for Roll the medium Don't allow the medium to roll you Thanks, Harry. I Think that's all we have time for here Kurt We will conclude and then I'll invite you back up. You have the floor