 Hello everybody, my name is Markey Jackson. I am a software engineer This is the Jenkins pipeline authoring sick meeting for the US time zone. It is March 20th 2020, thank you everybody for joining Liam welcome back Hey, I'm alive Alive vastly different world as we were chatting about earlier. Yeah, I Will like to start before I start this meeting I would like to say that the Jenkins does Jenkins community does have a code of conduct which essentially amounts to do not be a jerk Be good to one another with that. We will get this meeting underway Liam is taking notes. I Thank you for doing that. I am going to say that if you have not added the your name into the attendees list Which I believe everybody has That's awesome. We will move into open items the first open item is closing out the personas I know they're the last before you had Went on vacation Liam the last item we talked about was adding in the questions for the various personas I feel that most people have done that there may just be one or two more that need to be added out But what I would like to do is start to close that out This week and have before next week have that be done Realized my camera was not on. Yeah, well So I'd like to get that closed out if we can Looks like someone was nice enough to ask to do some of the characteristics for Yuri who I'd signed up for so that's Thank you very much. I Should add a few more on that but anyway, so do Let's see here. Do we want to go over these to close them out or I mean How should we go about that? I think we've gone over. I'll leave it up to the I'll leave that up to everybody I think we've covered them enough. Okay. Oh But I don't want to be the final say on that leave that To everybody Which plugins should I install okay, so Let's see maybe take Ten minutes to just sort of taught like walks through the questions that people would ask. Yeah, okay, so Yuri the utilitarian Ops person they run the teams Jenkins server their questions would be how do I install and upgrade Jenkins? How often should I upgrade Jenkins and plugins? Which plugins should I install? I want to put Just ran like what how do I get this to work basically? How do I how do I do and ask stack overflow? Yeah Another what good one may be is you know, I have personally seen a lot of questions over the last 30 days 60 days of people asking how do I get Jenkins to work in Kubernetes? How do I how do I run the Kubernetes? plugin What is the use case for the Kubernetes plugin is an actual I'm working with somebody currently right now because they thought it was for something different and Before they asked a question. They spent a lot of time Sort of trying to make it work for a use case that the plugin did not support a Minute of advertisement. I'm looking for speakers about the Jenkins and Kubernetes We plan to do a series of online meetups for that Yeah, I will sign up for that by the way because I have some pretty Good stories to tell about Jenkins and Kubernetes Any other environment that works as well. So just to let us know if you would like to participate I almost feel like there could be a sub bullet of which plug-in should I install which is what do they do? Right because in your case if they would have known what your plug-in was then Right, they wouldn't have been confused Agreed. I think that's a good question. Okay Not not to negate the fact your specific case is a good one because I think a lot of people would are probably looking into Kubernetes and you know, how can it help with Jenkins? Yeah, I think one of the I I Think use cases needs to be Doc on this particular plug-in for example the use cases and just needs to sort of be laid out in the beginning of the the read me for example because It's not very clear Does what plug-in should I install is is there a related question what plug-in should I avoid installing? Ah We have at least Sure, this is all all Yuri that may be one of these other personas Well, I mean, this is the kind of things that they'll ask more more commonly like that because they're I mean other It's not a cut-and-dry thing, right? There's not like only ask these one questions It's more like these are the kinds of things that they're going to be asking. Hello, right Most often right to start with So anyways All right, what else so moving on to Erica This person has been dropped into doing the Jenkins maintenance But it's trying to do it right and Improve on things and make sure they understand things Where can I find documentation to help me keep Jenkins running? How do I debug failures and pipelines after upgrading? How can I create easy to manage pipelines? Is there a list of best practices documents to guide me? This is similar to the Similar to the ones that Yuri asked but a little little more on the Holistic kind of try and understand that this this new world. I'm living in kind of thing Where can I get a list of steps provided by plug-in so I don't try to recreate them in groovy I should not and when should I not trust steps from random plugins? This What is I'm wondering what that means Again, this is like and do kind of thing I think I added that and it comes out of something. I've noticed is that a Lot of people don't bother when they want to do something like send a slack notification or make a Make a rest call to some random API. I've got a whole list of things I've seen people do they often don't go search to see if there's a plug-in that exports that step and then they they ride a bunch of Like shared like like like, you know, tens hundreds of lines of shared groovy that To do the same thing And then and then sometimes they they the person that wrote it leaves And so somebody like Erica would or really would might end up having to support someone else's junk and and then so sort of the The the counter to that when I was chatting with with Marty, you know, sometimes they explicitly do that because plugins Export steps that don't work. Well, right. I think one I don't know what persona what I'm about to say would fall under. I feel like it's Erica and maybe Olivia, but for example, I have had the Passionate debate with individuals about the use of plugins versus natively writing the code. A good example is Docker So most people will trust the underlying Jenkins to handle Docker, you know, certain native Docker calls as opposed to writing those native Docker calls out themselves What happens is is for in my particular Example for my argument is durable task plug-in if that somehow gets broken For example 1.32 was broken for a bit that broke all underlying Docker and people had to write things out natively Well, we waited for a fix in 1.33 I'm wondering if the quote. I don't know if it's a question to say when do you install a plug-in versus actually writing your own You know code to do something such as Docker Is it is it something um, can I get a list of plugins that are currently broken? Would that would that be a question someone might ask? Um Well the answers they shouldn't be especially core ones like that shouldn't be broken That's the kind of thing that we I mean, I would say that that cloud B's part of what they build their business on is having is that sort of the the Customer assurance programs stuff like that where they they're doing the testing to make sure that things stay stable And there there are some things though like I would say docker workflow Which like if you ask anyone who had any part in creating that plug-in, they would say you should never use this plug-in ever I know exactly who you're talking about That is Yeah, but it's like it's not necessarily clear to a user who just wants to use docker and they just search the plugins page for docker There's no way for them to realize that this plug-in is absolutely considered something you should avoid at all costs Yeah, so it kind of gets back to the previous question about which plug-in should I I not use I mean this one sounds like you should never ever use it not I was using it and it broke so I had to work around it Yeah, I mean like the durable task regression was like we fixed that pretty quickly. It was just like an accident, right? I mean Yeah, no, I I agree with you it was fixed quickly but that from a Because I don't want to say I because I was able to know about that from a core perspective I was able to mitigate it But for those people that don't know that and they're just like You know, they're not ops and then all of a sudden they're like, hey, I'm using you know agent Docker file and it's just not working Or you know a doc image and it's not working They may not know have the the advantage of knowing that there's regression taking place on that And that's sort of where my question comes in if that's a valid question Oh, yeah, it's a valid question. It's like what do we We do about it. I mean, there's the problem of the general problem of upgrading plugins, right? um Yeah, I think the question that I have probably falls into the the upgrading of plugins like when do you upgrade how do you Test to make sure that upgrade doesn't break things. So maybe that question I have has already been asked in erica uh Is it I don't see specifically about plugin about when When should I upgrade god can't type it someone? plugins and How do I make sure they don't break things cause regressions I mean, this is the same question that actually I think urie would be asking as well, but uh Actually urie urie's question would do it. Do I have to upgrade upgrade this plugin? Because he would just leave it alone fair I think that's fair Keep dropping eyes all right He didn't add there. I mean it's um So your question was your point was that that there's The reason that people don't use plugins sometimes is because they upgrade and cause causes regressions, right? That's correct. Yep. Sorry. Yes. That's correct. Okay, so But that's true I mean like like you you gainst this is this the the common problem you gain stability by writing your own code because you don't You don't take upgrades on the other hand the reason why those things break is because we're fixing things, right? very often correct so hmm Anyone have any other any suggestion on on Beyond beyond this part this phrasing it this way if there's anything to I mean, I guess that's part of this wouldn't it? Let's see Um Well, I mean it it it's part of that but it but it it could be Maybe not not provide steps. Maybe it's just something that That that's broken. I don't know Yeah, yeah, that's good Should I okay use existing steps? Yeah, I mean, this is kind of what this this is kind of that that's the question that you were talking It's the same thing as this right or is it slightly different? That was a question. I think I was talking about okay. All right, cool. Let's I'll move on So we have olivia outside ic developer. I'm not ops Um, how can I tell what plugins provide which pipeline steps? This is similar to they're different. I see that Uh, how do I know when I should convert something into a shared library or not? Uh, I've read about declarative versus scripted. How do I know which one to use? What's all this about cps sandbox? Do I need to worry about that stuff? Yeah getting into the more into the into the the guts of the system. I can see that I'm getting tired of granting access to various things in script approval To get my pipelines to work, but it feels like I'm doing something wrong by allowing everything Yeah, okay I kind of feel like the first two are like better written versions of the ones that we had above Um, yeah, I mean I would say that they're I would say that these two personas come at the same question slightly differently though Yeah, right because From from the from olivia's perspective. It's like how do I write this code? They're looking at it from a dev perspective as opposed to Erica who's looking at it from more of an ops maintenance like I'm trying to get this thing running and understand this system but they're not They're coming out from not a non-technical but a but less of a Engineering excellence like I'm a CS degree person, right gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense Eric is more the layperson view rather than The the CS degree view that's Not that those things are very are completely disparate, but like that's the That's why I mean, I think that that's why I think they apply in both cases um And you know, like as like we said, they don't it isn't always a clear, you know Delineation between the two things Any other questions? Yeah, what where I landed on the what on the on that first question uh based upon direct experience that was recent and fresh in my mind as far as uh I was trying to make use of some shared libraries that one of our sister teams had started to use and I was using a fairly a a different Jenkins instance with a different set of plugins installed on it and I could I could imagine it not being easy for someone to think oh, I need to you know I need to go figure out what plug-in is providing that particular step rather than it just looking like Well, that didn't work. There's something wrong with my pipeline code. What do I have to go fix? Okay, I will overwrite the exist the questions here so that we're Not so that we're using consistent Questions are possible. Okay Anything to add and I miss Carl, did I miss your points completely or is that we're just agreeing more than anything else? Sorry clicking buttons. Uh, no, we're good. Cool. All right. Be sure All right dev ops team member david put the questions in here How do I start building a shared library? How can I get better gtsl support? Um, that one actually probably could also go in in here What's the best workflow patterns for teams? Uh, what are the ways to best use shared code? What are some common best practices? What are common use cases I can follow are there common use cases I can follow? Is there a link to videos from the Jenkins community? Is there documentation of basic usage of pipelines? Sorry, I did my inline questions there. That's fine. That's fine When I approached these questions a lot of the way I approached them was somebody that is now either taking over Jenkins or They they are go moving from a one platform, you know To to Jenkins and these are things that I would having been through that some questions. I start to think of okay Do we have other? Other things that go in here. I mean, this is a lot of this sounds like overlap from Erica. I'm trying to think of what the what additional Things would go in here the workflow patterns for teams is unique Shared code is Similar but slightly different Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I'm just doing this Maybe some questions about like how can they set things up? like in a repeatable manner something like First script approvals or something like if they sort of stand up a new Jenkins instance They want exactly like they had on the last instance Automate management management and configuration uh Multiple Jenkins masters Yeah That sounds good to me. I do also want to try to time box this Yeah, we're just about I'd say one minute off of the time box. So um I think it was 908 when I said let's take 10 minutes so So moving on to I'll come back and clean this up in just a second uh, moving on to Lisa How can I make pipeline support in my plugin easier for users? Will symbols help? What documentation should I write? This sounds like mark writing this Um, where will I uh, will that documentation be displayed? How do I write a job a unit test for pipeline code in my plugin? Where a common security are there common security threats I should understand while writing my plugin Where should I ask questions about developing pipeline support in my plugin? A lot of plugin detail stuff here. Um, what techniques can I can help me manage pipeline dependencies? Uh, what integrated development environment aids can help me develop pipeline support in my plugin? Let's see here static analysis tools. Some of these should get pulled back up into the So the rest were mine there. Okay. So I think mark and I interpreted differently mark I think interpreted it as like I want to use pipeline as a developer in a different plugin and I interpret at Lisa as I want to modify the core pipeline engine itself Like workflows for ps workflow job. Well, that's both of those are valid valid points there, right? So we have kind of different The thing is this that I would say that this this is one of the more open-ended ones in terms of like how how far up that Contributor chain you want to go and how deep into the import how deep into the journals you want to get of Jenkins, right? So my questions are I mean to summarize it it's about how do I maintain these plugins like the core pipeline engine? Absolutely. Okay I'm not going to go through all of them though. So I think that's good for the time box. Mark. Did you want to continue? I think we've got a good Good list. I need to pull some things back Maybe we can need to move things around a little bit, but I think we've covered a lot of the questions one way or the other Yeah, I will I'm going to be adding in another persona that I think is Good not call it Brian. Okay, Brian is going to be the student intern Didn't think about that one. Oh, I brought that up and I think that's a good point. Yeah, there was an HKS scenario We were discussing the marketing as a pre-chat So how does how is Brian different from say? um, I mean, I guess I would I would put Brian somewhere in the Like outside ic developer, right? like they're in terms of that I I could probably So how would you differentiate them from that? So for me, it's a level of experience because yeah student intern They come with limited knowledge of the industry Definitely of programming at level of pipeline dsl. Okay, and but still they may get cases like here's your Jenkins please automate some product I wouldn't say I agree with such approach, but I see that quite often So, uh, basically it's just a persona for relatively low experienced Jenkins user and Who is tasked to do some development and basically need the kind of ramp up Okay, um I don't feel strongly about hitting it as a person. No, no, I mean, I see what you're saying Like it's somewhere between it's somewhere between Erica and Olivia is the thing and I see what you're saying that that it's not quite either one of those because the There's less industry experience um And less Jenkins experience, but they're being asked to do things at the level that things that you might ask of the Olivia persona Mm-hmm Yeah, okay. That's that's fair. I mean, I I don't know that I don't know that we need it But I have no strong opinion to say that we shouldn't right um Also, don't have the wrong opinion. Actually it starts rather from a joke Which is But yeah as as do so many things um I will I'll add I'll add it in and it just be something that we can at least we have it and Well, I mean like you said, it is a good, um good perspective to sort of keep in mind that we that we want to support that that particular So still aren't explorer or whatever somebody who just starts using Jenkins wants to get something running quickly. So basically a high focus on user experience On things working out of the box But at the same time Leave me time to deep dive Okay Do do we want to have a persona asking the question should why should I continue using Jenkins versus something else? And I asked because something I'm I'm fighting with a lot. Yeah um And I I think it's kind of stupid because I don't think engineers should be focusing on cacd But since people are asking that question I mean, it's just a waste of time in my opinion to like switch stuff But is that something that we might address through persona? um Hmm Or is that no, no, I don't let me see so Yuri wouldn't ask that because he's too busy doing it Erica wouldn't ask that because she's Taking things as they are and working with them, right? It's probably the devs The either the and I think the dev ops team member would might might ask that question But they're but at that point they're very often they're like hey, we're doing this thing We've already got a big investment in this. We'll go ahead and continue like it's Uh, I think if there's someone who would ask that it might be um Olivia whether that in terms of the engineering side of it that it would be the Olivia persona that would ask that I was like, why why can't I use why don't we use something else, right? Yeah, I spent like some of the characteristics and questions that Olivia brings up Are indicative of frustration and frustration makes people consider other tools Yep, that's exactly right okay, let's And doesn't make it easy to do what I want or even could be I'm I'm familiar with something else and I'm You know join the shop. There's maybe two different things Uh Why don't we use some other tools that are Jenkins? Uh, I don't just do this in terms of Yeah I think that's good. Yeah Cool. All right That's a good question to have that on there. Yeah, um, and I think there there's probably I mean like maybe Maybe this one too Let's put it on David as well because I think I don't think you're your or Erica would be asked that question They're they're too much just like Get in the in the middle of it um but So there's those two Okay, I think we're good on this for I I feel I mean like I said if you want to add brian, I'm I'm totally like drop brian right in there. That'd be fine Um As a as a as a point, um, but other than that, uh, yeah, I think these are a good these are a good start if we want to add more later We can Awesome. Okay Excellent. So the next item that I had uh on the agenda was Let's see I wanted to talk about uh, we can we can move we can set discuss drafting roadmap for the last one I do think that the I do think the pipeline is yamal for google summer of code is a good discussion to have right now Okay, and I i'm gonna let oleg talk to this Yeah, i'm not sure whether it's a good discussion to dive too much because There is no students the call What we did over past week. We agreed that we would use pipeline alternative meetings to discuss The project sounds great Yeah, but so far it didn't work. Well, uh, maybe because of timing. I'm not sure So so maybe you will try another approach But uh, yeah, what I wanted to say that there is a project idea, which is specifically related Um, to pipeline ordering, uh, basically providing capability to write pipelines in fully declarative failure Is out groovy DSL Okay, and right now this proposal on the table Marky if you let me to share the screen Oh Oh, yeah, I can let you hear this. Yeah, there you go I do not have the proposal. That was me So yeah, if you want to I don't have the proposal. I'll drop a link for the proposal. I'd have to go find it real quick. Oh, oh Yeah, I have everything on my hotkeys right now Okay for jsock So here you can see that there is a number of proposals which are actually related to pipeline for example There are pipeline documentation generation improvements and today we've spent a lot of time discussing checks api How checks api steps could be also integrated into pipeline. So all proposals we've got so far include integration with pipeline Uh, but specifically there is pipeline as a yaml thing And pipeline as yaml think is a continuation of the project we had in 2018 Maybe you remember simple public with a job plugin Which basically offered a wrapper which was generating declarative pipeline from yaml syntax using jenki's configuration as code and other tools But that's what we had at that point Um, and right now the proposal we have on the table after multiple discussions That have an experimental plugin which would be doing basically the same supporting yaml definitions But it could be the definition close to jenki's x pipeline. So definition close to one of existing pipeline libraries Because we have a bunch of pipeline libraries which support yaml right now like let's say poet or mpaired Or a third proposal which was discussed recently is actually having support of syntax which will be closer to tecton So these options were discussed right now. We are waiting for proposals But if somebody is interested There is this project idea. There was also a new prototype started By a potential mentor for this project are you two so here you can find Is it Pipeline as yaml project. It's a new one just started Several weeks ago Which basically There is no documentation, but it persists an approach Where yaml is being interpreted directly without conversion so might be something interesting for the special interest group, especially if you want to You get a news about this project and if we get some an application which is acceptable We definitely try to make it happen in kind of the overall author So The pipeline is yaml Idea is separate from declarative. They're just going to do their own All right, it depends because right now there is There are multiple ways how it could be implemented. How is a sock works? We expect Students to come up with their proposals based on project ideas and then with his help of mentors his inputs to implement them So the final implementation Would be really dependent on the applications we get Okay, and There are your concerns about how it would map Inter-existing pipeline ecosystem. So we run with the proposal this is the experimental of Disclaimer, so whatever happens it would be initially a prototype and it wouldn't Won't be promoted as a Standard yaml implementation at least in the beginning unless there is strong consensus in the community about that Okay So everything is Under discussion now, but yeah, there is one contributor I think who actually Did some progress. Yeah, who's interested? There are your students reaching out and asking But yeah, right now the traffic isn't that high, but yeah, maybe you will have something this year Okay I've added the link to the to the project in the in the dark Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And now you also had personas in the cdf Oh, yeah, it's a separate thing I put on the table because I don't know. Did anyone have questions? Sorry. I was moving on there. Did anyone have any questions on this? None for me I just need to actually I guess I should get in on that on the Gitter channel and Stay in touch with that Yeah, Gitter channel for this project points to pipeline authoring sick So as long as you're within pipeline authoring then all students To be there. Okay. And if something happens in JSOC channels, we generally forward people Okay, whether they send a message to new channels. It's a separate story, but yeah, sometimes it happens. Okay Anything else? Okay And yeah regarding Personas and cdf and cdf there is a specialist group about interoperability And what they're doing now these they are trying to define common terminology. They're trying to define Personas for cicd tools and basically it's It maps personas for pipeline No, yeah, Jenkins personas Are different, but still there might be some opportunities for collaboration Okay, uh, do you have a link to that sig that you could paste in And just a second Yeah, there is GitHub repository for that Right now there is not much content. Okay. Okay. I pasted it in the zoom chat Great. Thank you. I will Add that to the links. Okay. So good. Um, so we should Go look into that Yeah, so once you have something analyzed for Jenkins, maybe it makes sense to at least link it up in the Interoperability sig so to see whether there is some Uh overlap with other tools because I believe that spinnaker has problems which are quite close to Jenkins Uh for tecton for Jenkins x. Yes. So the space is a bit different Uh, but at the same time it's something where Jenkins might be looking at in several years. Who knows? So some collaboration might make sense. Okay members meetings Thursdays 1500 utc. Okay Is that okay? Um, let's probably start looking looking into that. Okay Um marky, I think we're Oh, like thanks for bringing that up just to be clear and uh, uh, we should See about joining that Yeah, so No, it's just for information. Yeah, thank you. I would I wouldn't have known to look so thank you Awesome Road map. Yep. I was uh, oh like put out a Uh, sort of overall arching roadmap for the Jenkins project as a whole and I uh, I think it would be Advantages for every SIG but For at least for the pipeline authoring SIG to start coming up with the roadmap that can roll up into that roadmap Okay, I know I've talked to you about that Liam getting that Starting to dictate what we want to get done um, but I'd like to start to First get everybody from the community's buy-in on that and then start to get something drafted out About things that we want to work on so people have a good idea I will say a lot of My urgency on the matter came from an interaction with another community member who was Very frustrated about the lack of progress in just overall Stuff that was prior to Oleg releasing the roadmap, but more mainly towards uh, just like, you know The gdsl and things like that and just you know, things just don't seem to be moving So I thought this would be great. Have a roadmap Let me just Not this person is frustrated. Are they are they doing anything? I'm gonna be yeah, no, it's a it's a fair question. Totally fair question Please define persona market Which persona is this right? So, uh, this does not fall in a persona. Well, maybe it does maybe it's I want everything to be Fixed and I don't want to have to contribute anything. I just want it to work Well, that's that's that's closest to the Olivia one really it's because that's the person who's coming in from the outside Outside IC developer, right? Yeah tends to be right. They're like, look, I I'm trying to do something else with this This is the less. I need to think about this the better, right? Yeah, so I just would like to start thinking about coming up with the roadmap that shows what we're going to Try to achieve, you know in a given period of time and obviously we know where I'll volunteers but Go ahead I didn't say anything. No, no, uh, so I I just I I think it would be good if we started to think about items we want to To achieve and I don't think we need to set, you know Artificial dates on them the things that we're sort of prioritizing with the community needs To say we're going to get this in in we're going to try to get this in in a release cycle or however we think about it But well, so the thing that I the one thing I would I would Want to clarify here is is the is you're saying we want to try and get this in and I think part of the point of this sig is to do Is to raise awareness so that We aren't the ones necessarily doing it. Um, this is very much like we're volunteers We're obviously we are contributing and we're going to do something with it, but I want to be I'll make sure that when we message this it's hey, this is a project being worked on and you can join I agree. I and and we say to whoever is out there because otherwise it becomes a People will look at it much like what you're this Community member that you're talking about will say well, when is it happening? Well, and I you know, we all we all have aside from Jenkins We probably have other other projects that we also work on it's like when is it's happening? Well, you tell me when is it happening because I I'm doing what I can Like if you want to join in Yeah, I'd like to add I'd like to add that I 100 percent 150 percent agree with you I do think that we have to as Leaders of a given sig have to set some sort of work precedence and when as we set, you know Those precedents then we can say hey, here's what we're working on and We'd love your help or if somebody's complaining about a specific or and I don't want to say complaining If somebody's voicing of concern about a specific issue Then we could say hey, that's actually on our roadmap It's a little bit further down But I'll tell you what the reason it's further down is because we don't have a lot of help But if you'd love to help we can pull that up Yep And Oleg you have a question Not a question under the comment. So that our map proposal I put In the developer mailing list for the record my proposal documents the process doesn't document The roadmap contents you would be reaching out to six and someone else to get the content Did you just send that out? Is there a link that you yeah, I can Send your link it's in the developer mailing list Okay, right now. Yeah, so The implementation is basically aligned with what you were saying came So we Don't do any kind of commitment We specifically deploy roadmap to raise visibility of the projects Visibility for contributors visibility for vendors because it's also important You want the vendors to be involved and to see where Jenkins is going And at the same time We Will be facilitating the things Because we have a really positive experience. For example in jcask space and documentation space recently where community contributors could do a lot of things Help of seeks like entities, which just do Some assistance make things happen. Some like is do sponsorship site for delivering changes And this approach can really work Later, we could also align it with community bridge projects So so there is google summer of code, but we also did a Successful experiment for community bridge this year. We have slated on the call by the way Who was working on jcask developer tools? And uh, hello one. Yeah Once we resolve Topics with Jenkins funding, which is on my plate as a board member We will be able to sponsor more such projects And that's where roadmap could also help because it can help us to prioritize the projects to be worked on in this way so we try to have Top priority projects in all areas not only features also infrastructure community governance and other things I just listed in a single place so we can navigate And help others to discover things Oh, right. And I forgot i'm not sharing anymore Let me it's like, oh, I've got that link up here. There is okay Yeah So this is that that message and sort of your ideas for how that might look Okay Yeah, it's just the beginning So if you're familiar with blotion roadmap, I just took it and adjusted to my proposal in terms of process, etc Right But yeah, the final look and feel may be different because it depends on the number of items And if you're going up to something like 50 items, maybe more and the current listing won't be really good for that But in principle, it would be like that Okay And then that's where I was thinking we could have we start to think about our stuff to roll up into this as the as our sake Absolutely Okay, sounds good. I mean like this is This is good. I don't I think that So we're coming down to time um I don't have things directly on my list in terms of what should go on the roadmap um So it's not not off the top of my head, right? So what I was going to do is I was going to start doing the draft and then you and I could sort of Work together on that I'll start the basic part of it and this will be open to the community So everybody is is welcome to to jump in and do that But uh, I was going to say let's get the first, you know start iterating on it And then that's where we'll start to see where Items that we want to start working on can actually be You know, we can start to prioritize those items as a SIG to say what we want to start working on Sounds good So I will take the initial draft response or excuse me to the end I will create the initial draft And then I'll uh get it out there so everybody can start iterating on it. I'll have that ready before next meeting Okay. Yeah, if you create it once once you create it and start typing in it, uh, It gets easier for everyone else to jump jump in, right? So Yep All right That was all for me. Okay. Okay. Does anybody have any questions comments concerns? For me one of concerns is european meeting Because we tried to run good two times in the time a different time frame But what times it didn't really work out? So are there more people in the european time zone who have expressed interest? Well, that's the problem because Advanced is now right now. Okay. And at the same time It's 4 p.m. So it's better than 6 p.m. On Friday, that's for sure. Well now it's 5 p.m. until then But still It's quite late for example in asian and pacific region So for me, for example, uh, it would be more preferable to Do it. Let's say early in European time zone So let's say quite late in united states, but good for asian and pacific region It's given that there are people interested, but yeah, it firstly starts from people So should I get together another doodle because I think I have to just go back and double check I think we put a doodle out there and that was the time Yeah, it was a time I selected but the votes They were not so many of them So my suggestion would be to just drop a message in the mailing list and ask hey if we do it in approximately in these Time frame, would there be somebody else interested? Yeah, and the the one that seems to be most most uh Happy making for your your time frame is like midnight us and midnight on the east coast kind of time frames. So Um, and I'm not I'm not opposed. I'm just saying like it that's the as opposed to being them being pretty close together on two different days I'm really it having them be really a disparate time would be better So you're thinking like something like maybe nine p.m. Pacific time Uh later than that 10 11 I'm not opposed to it that but for but you wouldn't run it. That's fine Thank you Yeah, no, this would be we would have to we would have to have something where we kind of trade off or something, you know but like uh Or just you know, oh like or we find someone else who's in that time zone that wants to run it. Um I might be able to run it and Theoretically when all that love of this united states is not necessary. It's uh, well, it would be nice to have in general But if there is an opportunity to expand the community It would be great, but right now I don't see obvious opportunities to do that Well, I'm also kind of a night owl. So I mean like if it comes down to what I can do late uh late night You know check in. Hey, I'll I'll at least be present to to To do things. It's just it's it would be a Concerted effort. So what time do we so what I what I'm hesitant on doing is sending out another doodle because that creates I in my mind it creates chaos and people think like what can't they get this together uh But I will also say that nobody has joined besides Oleg so but that might be a timing thing. Yeah, so at that point you're like So maybe if we just set the time and say it's 10 p.m. Pacific Or 11 p.m. Pacific exactly and just set it and then uh And we just go from there Yeah, maybe Or just asking whether somebody would be interested Set approximate time zone Well, let's say a range of two hours And ask if somebody is interested Please let us know if nobody is interested. Okay. We just killed a new meeting can kill somebody is interested And that's it I'm hope My I guess sending out an email asking that would be the same as sending out a doodle Yeah It's gonna And I'm not opposed to it. I guess more what I'm worried about is the optics of sending out different doodles And then people just are getting confused I think because nobody has joined you just set the time and wait for people to complain I know that seems like maybe the wrong thing to say but One of the things I have found in in another community that I'm in is when you put doodles out and People will complain once something has been set And then when you go to look back at the doodle at the people that are complaining, they didn't even participate It's just better to set the time It's the it's the science of when you give someone a choice, they will be less happy with that choice Exactly Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm open Oh, look it this is I I maybe you should Decide and like you you have a particular perspective on this so Um, and I trust that perspective. So my point is maybe you pick a time and then we'll figure out how to make it work Okay, so well, I mean like I like you have you have I you've you've expressed a specific like, okay There's a space that where this would work. I want to know what that is and let's let's go with it, right? Okay, there'll be two things that I'll need to do on my end is one is uh We'll need to adjust the sig Uh landing page on jinkun.io. Whatever the time is we choose. So that's corrected and number two Uh, the zoom that I'm using is not the cdf zoom and the reason that I'm not using that is because it's there's just been too many problems with that How I can I have the ability, uh, I think I've got like 10 host keys that I can give out So if we do move it to a different time, I can and someone's going to host that I can definitely make them a host So they're able to run the zoom on there and I However, the cdf zoom is empty in What's a In-ear time zone Okay, it's not a problem. There is no meeting collisions. No anything Okay, so I'll just either you or myself whomever just needs to there needs to get a pr in to whatever date or time We're going to do that. So you can just assign all the items to me because I'm probably the most interested person Starting from the next week. I won't be able to participate again though right now. It's hard to predict when you can participate Uh, but uh, yeah, uh, you can just assume that everything is on need to implement Until we're to be kind of put a european meetings on hold Just to save everybody's time Okay, cool um, oleg I put this on your plate for actions items Great We are at the top of the hour just a little bit past does anybody have anything that they'd like to add before we close out this meeting Awesome, everybody. Have a great weekend. I will have the video up in short amount of time And if nobody has anything else have a great weekend. Thanks everyone Thanks