 Aloha and welcome to Ehana Kako, who we're here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kelea Akina, president of the Grassroot Institute. Well everyone knows it's election season and whether you're following the national elections or some local elections, there's one you need to pay particular attention to. It happens to be the United States Senate race here in the state of Hawaii. We have none other than John Carroll contending against, well, against Schatz, the current senator. We're having so much fun in studio, I'm forgetting all of my lines here. But it's an interesting race because John returns to the political scene after many years having been 10 years in the state house as well as in the Senate. He's been an airline pilot, he served in the United States military and many people know him for his advocacy for changing something that has been with us for a long time called the Jones Act. We're going to talk with John a bit about why he's running, what he hopes to accomplish and what he stands for. So please welcome to the program with me John Carroll, Senator John Carroll. Good to see you. We still call you senator from your state legislature base. Well, yes, you can call me Kalilihua Kalani. There you go. How about Kalilihua Kalani? Well, your Hawaiian is just excellent. You know, tell me what do you hope to accomplish this year, 2016, now that you're throwing your hat back into the rink? First of all, I've been trying to get rid of the Jones Act and for those who do not know what it is, it's a federal law that says that if a ship isn't built, manned, maintained, flagged, and those owned by Americans or in America, it cannot operate in interstate commerce. The net effect of that is that if we have, say, major goods coming in from China, Korea, things that we can use for farming, basically they can drop things off but they cannot go from here and then do business in another state. Now, you've been an advocate for bringing some change to this federal law that goes back to the 1920s and in fact, you've got a case that has worked its way through federal court. And yes, and through this, well, up to the intermediate, I mean the appellate court. Ninth circuit court. Ninth circuit, yes. And what have you been trying to accomplish with this suit? Well, first of all, the interstate commerce provision is so ridiculous. The whole, if you read the case law on this subject matter, that is the commerce clause, the purpose of the commerce clause in the Constitution is to ensure that every state has equal access to interstate commerce with states, nations, and Indian tribes. And you're saying that the way that Jones Act works out in practice actually harms the Hawaii's economy in terms of the interstate commerce. Not only harms it, it strangles this economy because Alaska, for instance, at least has pipelines, highway, and railroads so they have some connection to the other 48 states. But we have nothing like that. Your argument is not just an economic argument, it happens to be a constitutional one, which makes your approach rather unique. Yes, absolutely. But they have, the Intermediate Court of Appeals Justices have all said that that may be, it could be that, but the legislature, the U.S. Congress has said, oh, you know, if they want to do it, they can do it, so you have to do something different than what you're doing now. Well, let's step aside from the litigation and talk a bit about the Jones Act and what you would do if you are a United States senator. But what can the Senate do? The first thing that I can do, in which I intend to do, is the very first day I'm in the Senate, I'm going to put in a provision to abolish those provisions that relate to interstate commerce. It's got no business there. That law, the Jones Act law was primarily a semen protection law and they iced this one into it basically to help the American merchant marine building community and they've gone on to just basically almost ruin it, as you have said, I believe, one of your speeches, I believe I heard talking about that, or Kent School, and that has got to go down the chute along with it. There's a whole bunch of subsidies that are being paid to the shipowners and shipbuilders, all coming out of the taxpayers and we, and a little Hawaii here, is the most drastically hurt by this. Well, in a sense, you recognize that litigation can only go so far, so you're seeking a political position. Exactly. Not only seeking that, but what really irritates me is that the Ninth Circuit judges would come out and say that this is not something for litigation, that what one of the judges said that under certain circumstances, that San Diego gun rights law, which is a standing issue, that could be eliminated, then we could go forward because they clearly recognize the danger, I mean the harm to Hawaii, but they're unwilling to do anything about it until that standing issue's out of the way. You know, in some ways this issue is a metaphor for your political race. There is some level at which this is a David and Goliath attempt to unseat a Democrat senator from the state of Hawaii. In fact, all of our congressional representatives are in favor of the Jones Act as it is. They defend it to the hilt. Their campaign sponsors, the unions, pour big money into their campaigns. Absolutely. In order to maintain the Jones Act. When Ed Case, who's a Democrat obviously, put in an anti-Jones Act resolution, Colleen Hanabusa took his seat away from him and based, I'm sure, upon Dan Inouye and Spark, you know, telling him to get it. So here's my political question. Given all of the opposition to Jones Act reform or Jones Act repeal, how do you stand a chance, John, to mount a victorious campaign in the state? Well, first of all, what I've found is that if you can let people know, and I talked to the United Visayan Community Association, which is in Waipahu, probably 1,000 percent Democrat, when they understood what the impact of the Jones Act is on their lives and their pocketbooks and their future, they had four pages furnished, by the way, by Fermat Dayal, who is a Democrat, but will soon become a Republican along with you when you make your governor's race. So they basically really understand it, and I think when that message is out, they will vote for me regardless of my age and looks and all of that. So what you're basically saying is that putting litigation aside, putting politics aside, putting union, non-union issues aside, that the people themselves feel that there's some need of change. Absolutely. And what is it that makes people feel we need to change something that impacts the economy like the Jones Act? Well, being able to get the message out to the people here, and that brings up another major issue, is that Brother Schatz, Senator Schatz, has refused to debate with the five people running against him, and there's a young man named McConnie Christensen. Right, we had him as a guest here. He's a Democrat who ran in the primary against Mr. Schatz. Right, an Academy graduate. He's coming on board our campaign now to force Schatz into debate. I think the people of this state have a right to know the bulletin, I'm sorry, the advertiser is not getting the word out as to who's who or why they're running or anything else, and I think that's a blot on them. What do you say when the media or your political opponent says, well, there's not much mandate for a debate because John Carroll doesn't carry the number of votes that really registers on the scale to constitute a real debate between two competing viewpoints. In other words, that we don't really even have a second party of any sizeable number here. That's what the English said to the Americans, and all I'm saying is I'm George Washington on this one, so we will move forward and win. I really believe that the word is getting out right now as to what this impact has been, and I believe that the people that are already working for me, and I have this Dana Calico, and she is really doing a great job as a campaign chairman, and she's getting the word out to the Bernie Sanders people and a lot of different people that normally wouldn't be looking at me at all, and I think the reasonableness, the potential for the future for them all can be clearly stated and clearly shown in what we're putting out, and when that happens, we will get elected. That's how I see it. Well, you're clearly running as a reformer. You're running against the powers that be, which, although you are a Republican, these are themes that resonate very strongly with many Democrats and non-Republicans across the nation. Well, they should, yes, and let me say this, too, because I know I shouldn't say anything bad about Republicans, but we had a platform plank in the Republican Party that said that the Jones Act should be eliminated, and Mrs. Lingle actually got that plant removed, and then when she ran for U.S. Senate, she was in favor of the Jones Act. That's the reason I backed up Maisie Hirono. One of the things you touch upon here is that the Jones Act is not purely a political issue around which people line up on only one side of the party line. In fact, you mentioned Makani Christensen, who was running to oppose Senator Schatz in his own party. He sat exactly where you were and espoused this very same position and perspective on the Jones Act that you do. It's called truth and common sense, and that's what we bring to the table, because, for instance, we had, when I was in the House of Representatives, there was, I used to be a diver in flying, and every place I'd go, including 250 miles out to sea, you see bagasse. So my very first year in the State House, I put in a bill that forced the plantations to silt the bagasse onshore, so we had clean water. And now, even if I died today, at least I can look down as we fly, and you see clean water. And that, but from that day on, I never got a penny out of Alexander Baldwin, Kasselin Cook, or the plantation owners. But I just go basically on what I think is right, and that's why I'm doing this. And if somebody else was here to do this, I probably wouldn't be here, but I just did not see any leadership coming forward. Well, let's talk. That's why you're going to run for governor. Well, this is your show. I'm interviewing you on this show. And, John, you have to leave your crystal ball at home. But basically, you have seen this state move from a Republican-controlled political economy to a Democrat-controlled one. But basically, in both cases, it's pretty much been under one-party rule. What does Hawaii need to do to move beyond one-party rule? Well, in other words, what can be done to get a competitive two-party system? Actually, right now, if you ask me what are my leanings, I'd probably say libertarian, because I see some Republican things. I see some Democrat things. But basically, common sense, the basic benefits of being here, being able to work here to make a living here, not have to rely on the government to get the kind of support. The problems that we have with the homeless, they're always talking about where are we going to put them, but nobody's talking about how are we going to get rid of the situation that causes them to exist in the first place. So all I'm hoping is, and I really appreciate you're letting us be here, is to get that message out. And I think if we can get it out and spend even one term in the U.S. Senate, and I'll be speaking out very loud and clear, and I will work with the Democrats that are in office here, and hopefully, you know, the few more, I mean, more Republicans would get elected. But what I want to see is solid, common-sense leadership, and we don't have it. Oh, very good. We're going to come back after a short break, but you've been listening to Senator John Carroll, who believes that as a libertarian, he can run for office as a Republican and work with Democrats, because people want real issues solved. We'll be right back after this short break. Aloha, I'm Kirsten Baumgart, Turner, host of Sustainable Hawaii. Thanks for watching Think Tech this summer. We have a lot of terrific shows of great importance, and I hope you'll watch my show too every Tuesday at noon as we address sustainability issues for Hawaii. They're really pertinent as the World Conservation Congress approaches in September, and the World Youth Congress that's focusing on sustainability next year as well. Have a great summer and tune in at noon every Tuesday. Aloha, this is Reg Baker with Business in Hawaii. We're a show that broadcasts every Thursday at 2 o'clock. We would love to hear from you, and you can reach us in several different ways. We have a hotline that you can call in at 415-871-2474, or you can email us at thinktechhawaii.com, or you can tweet us at Think Tech H.I. Looking forward to hearing from you and seeing you on our next show. Aloha. Welcome back to Ehana Kako, here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Ehana Kako sounds like a venerable Hawaiian saying a pule kako, which means let's pray all together. That's what the kako is. At the grassroots institute we like to say ehana kako. Let's work together, because think of the terrible alternative. If we don't work together nothing gets done, but united we can do anything, and I know that's the spirit of my guest today, John Carroll, but before returning to him I want to say thank you to the good folks at Think Tech Hawaii, who produce about 35 hours of original content from downtown Honolulu that goes across the world. You can find that at thinktechhawaii.com. Now back to John Carroll running for United States Senate. He's been in politics, business, government, the military, but he's throwing his hat back into the rink. John, you must have some faith that the system can work if courageous people will get into it. Exactly, and I've seen it work, because when we were in the 70s when I was in the state legislature. The 1970s, right? No, 1870, but well, oh yeah, it was 1970. Anyway, no, when Ari Oshii was in here and we had guys like Tadal Beppu and John Oshii Jima, and well, people like Andy Anderson, Pat Psyche, we worked together, we got a lot of things done, and we had balance. And what has happened is totally out of balance now, and idiotic things are happening such as the rail. And just to give you an idea of the absurdity of Democrat leadership, you're coming to work through Pearl City. You're on a road that's got chalk holes, potholes, and steel, and there's a billion-dollar project over your head, and they don't have enough money apparently to fill up the potholes. This is a Democrat leadership at work, and I think people don't get it. I think little by little they are getting it. You've touched on a visceral issue for people. Traffic, of course, as well as paying for solutions to traffic, such as the rail. You seem to have a passion for things that affect locals here, such as the economy. Well, in what ways can you, from the perch of a U.S. senator, actually impact life here in Hawaii? Well, one of the things that I intend to do, and you're not a typical thing you'd probably talk about, but I intend to work with the local legislators here. For instance, when I was in the house, Waikiki used to flood up over the sidewalks. We did a, what do you call it, not EIS, but CIP and put in a whole new sewer system, and now, of course, they let it go. But the people that are in these seats need to know what they can do at the bottom level of their leadership in these different districts, and I think that kind of help coming from, maybe they'll see me as an outsider, maybe as their grandfather or something, but I think that can be done, and I think it can be done very effectively, and I intend to do that. I don't intend to be in an adversary position with the Democrats. What I do intend to do is to make them know, or let them know what I believe they can be doing, and then if they don't, it's going to set the stage for somebody to remove them. Now, John, you've been highly engaged in Native Hawaiian issues, and here in the state of Hawaii, there's a range of understanding from lack of knowledge to humiliation to hostility in terms of some of these issues, but for the most part, I think most people feel that the Hawaiians need to get those things that are set aside for them without government interfering, and one of those you've been monitoring has been Hawaiian homelands. Absolutely. A good number of people don't know the origin of this, but that was set aside that the state of land, the fourth largest state of land in the Hawaiian islands back in the 1920s, so that in terms of Prince Kohio's vision, Hawaiians could be as great as Americans in terms of being able to own a piece of the rock and have a private property ownership, but what's wrong with the way Hawaiian homelands has been structured and administered? Okay, historically, they've had a homesteading provision since about 18, I think 1883, somewhere in there, and in that provision that they had at that time, you had to be a citizen to get the land, and if you farmed it or did well with it for five years, you would then get it in fee simple. What I'm looking at now... Now, we've seen that all across the United States. If people go west, they stake their claim, they work the land, and then they own it and pass it on from generation to generation, and that's how you build generational wealth with fee simple real estate. Yes, but that's not how it is in Hawaii. No, it's not, and just talking about the system, there'd be somewhere between 24,000 and 44,000 qualified people on that list that are not getting land, and there's state land and federal lands all over this state that could be being used for Hawaiian homes, and one of them is Makua Valley, for instance. If they cleaned all of that ordinance out of there, that would make tremendous little farms just in that one area. But let's just go back for a moment. You mentioned tens of thousands of people who are qualified, and I believe that currently the waiting list itself is about 27,000. Okay, well, I've seen both, 24 and up to 44. That's right. There are about 24,000 waiting for residential lots, about 3,000 waiting for farming lots, but the point is people aren't getting onto that land. Precisely. And the land itself is actually available only as leasehold. What's wrong with making that land available as leasehold, rather than the Hawaiians actually being able to own it? Okay. That might be a rhetorical question, but I'd like you to spell that out for us. Well, number one is, I think, well, I've been saying for years, that the Hawaiian homelands, when they get the award of that land, it should be given to them in fee simple, not on a 99-year lease. Also, what's happening, I understand why Manalo, and I think Nanakuli, they have people where the family's had the land for 80 years or whatever, and then the descendants are below 25%. They have to get off the land. I mean, this is just absurd. And as far as I'm concerned, and what I am going to do my level best to have happen is to get the law changed so that they will have to give them that everybody on that list is going to get land in about two to three years from now, and that they will get it in fee simple, absolute, and we can do away with the Hawaiian Holmes Commission and all the oversight and nonsense that goes on, and they're leasing lands out for different things so they can make money to pay for the salaries of the commissioners and the ohas. Well, this is a radical plan to make the homestead land available at fee simple as opposed to merely lease hold. Well, yeah, but the 50% owner, I mean the 50% of Hawaiians have a right to that land. It should have been given to them a long time ago, and I have just for your information, 12 or 13 great-grandchildren who were all part of Hawaiian, not to mention grandchildren and children, so I just see them effectively being cheated because their grandmother was like three quarters Hawaiian, and she would never even think about it because she couldn't own it. She has quarter Chinese and that probably meant. Sure. John, one of your colleagues from when you were back in the state legislature gave me his impression of this proposal. He's a former legislator from a neighbor island, and he said this to the idea of providing the land fee simple. He said, and he's part Hawaiian, he said, you know, Kili, that's not good for our people because we'll only lose it. What are your thoughts about that? Well, absolutely, that's the standard argument, even some fairly intelligent people. They're saying, oh, basically, if you translate it to common language, Hawaiians are too dumb to manage their own property, and if you look at the statistics of the Hawaiians in our community, the Hawaiians are in the top level of ownership and earning and wealth. So you challenged that stereotype. Oh, it's it's ridiculous. Well, I mean, and it's used as that stereotype is used simply politically to keep the Hawaiian homelands exactly as they are owned by the state rather than in the hands of Hawaiians. Yes, absolutely, and there's a lot of federal land that I'm looking at as a U.S. Senator and as a military guy too, by the way, that should be being returned to the state because when we have the state of Hawaii renting Dillingham Field from the federal government, there's something just intrinsically ridiculous about that, and there's a whole lot of these kinds of issues. We don't have time to get into them today, I don't think, but that's those are very high on my on my list of things to get done in the U.S. Senate. I really, can I just tell you, Yes, please. I had this aortic heart valve replacement, and most guys my age are dead, much less, you know, moving around running for anything, but the fact of the matter is with the energy that I have and the health that I have, I believe I can get these things done, and that's the reason that I am running, and also we have a website called carol4senate.com and I'm supposed to ask for money every time I get a chance, so we ask anybody who has seen this to send money either in the mail or donate by oh on the website, yeah. And John, you have many grandchildren. Yeah, not many, just 11. 11, well that's a good number. Well what kind of Hawaii do you envision for them when they grow up? Okay, that's a perfect question. I envision, well number one, Singapore has 250 square miles of land. We have about 6,000 square miles, and we've got the most beautiful fertile land in the entire world. There's no place better than Hawaii, and I've been around a lot. So anyway, that's number one. Number two, they have a gross domestic product of about 120 billion a year with this little 250 square miles. We have about 69 billion a year, the bulk of which is tourism and government spending, and then we've got homelessness, we've got joblessness, we've got a lousy education system. All of these things are things that I'm looking at. All of them I have solutions for, but what I perceive as a Hawaii where agriculture is probably our number one component, because we'll be able to get everything we need to farm, you know, and make profit. Plus we'll be able to ship our goods worldwide. I know, I think I mentioned to you one time that I bought a gift for a guy up in Sapporo, and I asked the Japanese VP, Japan Airline VP, what should I get this guy? I said get him a cantaloupe. I go to the store and the cantaloupe is $45. I can imagine what a mango would be compared to a lousy cantaloupe. I mean, it's crazy, so. And on that subject, you've drawn a connection between the Jones Act. Oh, no, absolutely, yes. And the cost of agriculture and agricultural products. What is that connection? Yes, it is. The connection is, is that if we have, well that's why I was talking about Singapore, because it'll have like 75 ships in the channel waiting to come in and offload either materials or take materials out. Everything from, you know, tennis shoes, squash rackets, and other things that I don't know about. But anyway, they, that's, that's the kind of vibrant community I see here, and we've got to get rid of the Jones Act, number one, to make that happen. So the cost of exporting as well as the lack of export ships here in Hawaii is one of the factors that keeps our agriculture down? Well, to be fair to Matson, they give very good rates for, for backflow, because they don't have anything to send out. But I know some of the guys selling cattle will put them on Matson, because there's no other way to do it. But the, but the biggest problem for the economy, if we're going to be in, if you want to call it an inter-port economy, we've got to have the ability to produce and then spread it out worldwide. And with that, I believe we can be the most solvent, most solvent enclave in the whole world. I really do believe that. What has to happen in order to restore Hawaii's greatness? Well, am I supposed to say, get me elected? There was a softball I was handing you over here. Well, I'll tell you what, if what I'm, what I'm saying should, to get done, will get done, that will restore it. And I have my kids paying attention to this race, and I'm looking at, well, fellas like you. I think you're key to the future here. Just for your audience to know, I heard this young man speaking at a, some breakfast or something, and I thought, my goodness, where's he been hiding? But he's got- You're too kind. You're too kind, John. Well, I'm not too kind, but your position on, well, number one on, on the Jones Act now, and then plus on the Hawaiian homes on education, every, every single thing that I'm concerned about, you were talking about him at a time nobody knew who you were. Well, thank you. And thank you. Talking about time, it's time for us to move on and let the folks out there, ponder the, the reasons you've given to become our next United States Senator. Okay, thank you very much. Thanks so much, John. So glad to have you. Could I say one more thing? One last thing, please. Very few people have 84 years to plan to run for office, so. There you go. And keep on running long after that. Have no fear. My guest today, Senator John Carroll, he's served Hawaii in the state legislature, and now he's put his hat into the rink for a United States Senate seat. I hope you've enjoyed learning his positions. We'll be back next week on Ehana Kako, here every week on the ThinkTack Hawaii Broadcast Network. Until then, aloh.