 Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another edition of Condo Insider that is put on by Hawaii Council of Community Associations. So happy to have you join us today. And today I am honored to have with me as my guest, Derek LaJoya, who is with Guardian Group. He has a big array of experiences. He was in the financial field and so he has a lot of experience with that. He's also now has gotten into more site management. And also with site management, he's also been involved with some condos that were also going under repairs. So helping to coordinate all of that kind of stuff. So what we're really going to talk to him about is because he does some site management. And I've always been asked about, you know, some condos are thinking about maybe transitioning to a site manager, but they're not sure. So they ask for what the difference are. So that's really what the show is going to be about today is like what do condos need to look at when they're thinking about transitioning from away from an onsite to an offsite and then the opposite. Cause I've heard that recently in the past couple of months, you know, that kind of topic coming up to my ears. So Derek, first off, what should a condo look at when they're looking to, maybe they have a, they're looking to go to an offsite manager. So they call it site managers, right? Right, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, great question. And it happens all the time. It goes back and forth. I think when they are considering going offsite, most often or not, you know, probably also the office starts with the budget, you know, when they're going offsite, you know, either they can, one of the options is to go to a third party vendor. That's why they call it site management company. You know, deferring, you know, basically going to a third party provider for those services. There are obviously advantages. One is, you know, you're contracting out basically all of that service. So there won't be disruption of services. A lot of times when you have an onsite resident manager, now you have to also deal with a lot of the HR, the labor, the labor part of that. First of all, on PTO, you know, the resident manager gets hurt on the job. You really do look at more from an employee standpoint. Not to say site manager doesn't have that either, but there is that option of having a third party provider. But when they do also go to a site manager, most often or not, it's usually because maybe they don't need the manager there all the time. You know, one of the reasons why a lot of boards or owners like to have a resident manager, piece of mind. A lot of times maybe a lot of the activities doesn't happen during the day. Maybe it happens during the evening. Maybe there's, you know, situations where they, you know, they want the resident manager to be there to enforce rules that maybe violations are happening at night, like noise or, you know, maybe, you know, they just like the convenience of if somebody has an issue and they have somebody to just knock on the door for. But I think one of the biggest things to consider when you're doing that is, does the association own a unit? When you have a resident manager, usually, you know, the association already owns the unit. So, you know, it is convenient for them to already have the resident manager. When they don't own the unit, now that becomes, you know, an added cost. You know, from your operating expenses, you got to rent out the unit for the resident manager. You know, their utilities, all of that have to be paid for. So from a cost standpoint, I feel like a lot of times, you know, most often just then the duties that are being acquired is the owner unit. Nowadays, right, it is expensive to rent those out. So that's probably something that all associations should consider if they want to go that route. So whether it's an onsite or even a site manager, I've had conversations with some that said, essentially you want them to do the same amount, same work. So you still have to detail out in either case, whichever way the condo is going to do, you still have to detail out a job description and what the expectations are. So that could, so with some people, I said that could be the starting point of creating your, also your employee manual, so to speak, right? It's really detailing out your job description and it should be detailed to the point of like, how do you want your grass to be cut? How low, you know? Or certain trees, everybody has their own interpretation of how they expect the tree to be trimmed. You know? Some just whack it and then let it grow back because it's less time consuming where others want it to be. You know, you can trim this little one every once in a while, you know? I said, you have to really decide how you want your landscaping, the maintenance done. Especially the walkways, you know, you have the drip marks, you know, tearing out the trash, you know? And especially that gray paint just stains. Yeah, yeah. It's bloody after a while, you know? So, but with a site management, you of course would also detail that out for the site people to maintain that property to that expectation, right? Yes. There's some, I said, take even pictures to include in your contract. So you have control of your expectations. So what if they went from like a site manager, they already tried the resident manager, they're kind of doing the site manager kind of a thing, but they're thinking about doing like security guards, like in the off hours, like evening time, you know, they have someone during the day and then in the evening time. And really, it all depends too on how much stuff is going on in the condo. Like is there a lot of household violations or disorderly conduct, that kind of stuff, right? But even again then, you would have to have your security guards trained on household and how to handle that, right? Totally, yeah, I think you hit it in the nail. One of the first things to do is really identify your needs or what is the priority of what you're trying to achieve in a property. So like if you want a site manager, even a resident manager, either one, and let's say, you know, town home associations, that's a great example, you know, you have a lot of landscaping, but there isn't ROI if you have a site manager, that can landscape, that can maintain a lot of those common areas because that's probably the biggest work that's being done on a day-to-day basis, you know, five days a week for however many hours you have him or her contracted out. So even when we, you know, I get requested for a proposal, the first thing I always ask is, you know, what are you guys trying, what do you guys need, right? What is your immediate need? What is the biggest focus you guys want us to do? Because if it is in maintenance, then I would have to have a fit for that property. But for some associations, maybe they have already the landscaping contracted out, they have maintenance people contracted out. So we just provide administrative duties. And one of that is coming in a second, you know, walking around, interpreting the house rules, helping the property manager furnish violation letters and keeping track of those violations. And it's interesting, because as we come to, you know, as we discuss this more and more, I mean, everybody knows that property is age. So what ends up happening is needs are constantly changing as well. So with that, right, before when things are new, you just have to be pretty general with all the areas of, you know, condo management. Maybe you have all owners who, you know, really care about the property, they're not really renting it out. So there's maybe not a lot of violations or everybody's still playing good neighbor. Over time, you don't know what that ratio looks like. So that becomes a major issue. You know, we noticed it too, like, you know, pets are becoming more common, right? So maybe that becomes a major issue. But then, you know, then you start to decide, okay, you know what, this year maybe we want to focus on getting all the behaviors back in place and we need someone to really, you know, enforce the house rules. Or maybe over time, like you said, landscaping is just becoming a lot more of a bigger need. So that becomes a focus. So like you said, as the more you can detail out kind of what you expect, let's just say, even if it wasn't just a resident, let's say you had unlimited budget and you just said, okay, I'm going to contract out every facet of managing a property. So from maintenance to house rule enforcement, which is like security services, through maintenance, through handyman repairs, you could actually kind of get creative. Now you can decide, does it make sense as if he's about to contract these out or does one person exist that can do all of that? And let's say it's so hard to find a jack-of-all-trades. I think that's why we see a lot of turnover. Yeah. Some of it's great with landscaping, some of it's great with maintenance. Maybe they're great at that, but it'd be unrealistic to all to expect them to be great at house rule violations and typing out those letters when they're just out on the field all day, you know? And we can take a look at that from any industry, from construction to, I mean, any of the labor services industry, some one of these superintendents. But then you have some project managers that are really good at the paperwork, and that's to say, right? So I think that's something to, every association should really, basically when they're planning that out, how to be realistic. Yeah, I think, well, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I just like be realistic. You know, I think when you lay it out, you could really find somebody that can fulfill all those duties in a 40-hour work week. Yeah, and with the workforce the way it is today, I mean, it's so different. And I think, like you said, it's hard to find someone that can do everything. So like if you, when you're interviewing, I would imagine when you're interviewing someone, I mean, you can kind of find what their strengths are, what they like to do. Some of them like to do landscaping, you know? But they may not be strong in maybe some kind of administrative things. So you may have to, you know, realign what the job description might be and the salary, because you might have to hire someone else to compensate for what that guy, but the workforce is really hard. So sometimes I think you have to work with what you have and get creative and, you know, do things based upon the person's strengths. Because I think they will last longer and that's what you want. You don't want the constant turnover. You really want that person and build upon their strengths. And they eventually, maybe they might be able to get a handle on that administrative part of it. Because come on, learning computer skills can take a little bit while, you know, even Microsoft, when they do an update, you're like, oh my God, what did they change now? You know, it takes a little while to get used to it, even though you're using it every day. So, I mean, that's where some condos have to kind of like realize that. And then one of the other things that I heard, and I heard this really a long, long time ago, and it's always stuck in my head, is when people come home from work, you know, they work during the day and they don't see anybody around. You know, and I said, well, you have to kind of realize that they've probably already been out doing stuff during the day when you're at work. So, you kind of can't really expect them to be visible 24 seven, you know, and then you have some other managers or site people that kind of, they know how to manage their time. They got to do some yard landscaping. So, they know that it's either the morning or late afternoon. They don't want to be out there in the hot sun getting dehydrated, you know. So, I really, so some associates need to also take that into consideration that, you know, some of them that they may do their jobs during certain times of the day, that makes it easier, even the employees, if they rather do certain things in the late afternoon because of the heat factor or some things early in the morning, they got to kind of like be a little semi-flexible, hear them out as for the reasons why, because they could be very valid reasons, like they're going to be shooting down a lot of things. You don't want to do it when there's going to be constant traffic, people going to work, coming home, don't want wet sidewalks, right? You know? So, what happens when like on, I guess for me, that big thing is like on a site manager, how often is the expectation of them to be there? And I would think the condo itself has to think about the future, okay? If you're going to switch to a site manager, do you have any repair projects in the looming? And how is that site manager going to be able to manage that when he's also has to manage other property, right? Yeah, so it's a great, yeah, you bring up a great point. So, same thing when we get a request for proposals, I ask a lot of questions. Is there an office? Because obviously we would have to know how to, for that work day to look like, office, do you have a support? What are the projects coming up? How many water leaks have you been having? Because that would give us expectation, how many after-hour calls? Because again, you hit it right on the nail. I think one of the things that aren't talked about a lot, which could be because it's across all industry is the burnout rate, you know? This is not an easy job. And a lot of times we're dealing with so many owners that it's not personal, it's just, they're there to, the owners have complaints. And so, a lot of managers, no matter, it's the general manager, resident manager, manager itself, even when we hire, we ask about that, like, angry tenants are going to come at you, give us situations, what is your tolerance for it? Because it gives us indication, you know, how much they can, customer service, how much they can handle and how much they take it personally. So, you know, with that, right? Like those have to be addressed as well in order to have a long-term successful partnership or like a long-term successful like employee or a contractor if you're using a third party, if you want it to be long-term and sustainable and then you could work through it, there's gonna have to be a lot of working things, you know, between parties. And I think those have to get addressed. So, like you said, yeah, what are the projects coming down? Because if they didn't sign up for it, and all of a sudden you throw them all of those expectations, that's when there's a gap. I think when there's unrealistic expectation in two parties, and you and I know, like that's kind of a lot of times when this can happen. It's like- Yeah, I appreciate what you guys have. When he has no experience in how to even coordinate, you know, these people are coming outside, what do I do, you know, that can be really scary. And I've had some questions from some other condos, like, yeah, again, going back to workforce. I mean, the pool can be very, you know, very minimal. And like I had a conversation with one person, they were looking at these resumes, you know, one had past paralegal experience and another one had passed, his thing was boats, like, it's a red flag at the harbor, walking distance away at the time, you know. But, you know, they had no resident management type or even management type of experience. And I said, so what if he started them off without a manager title, and maybe put them into like a different kind of title and kind of ease him into that because he's gonna be into a big learning curve. Right. You know, and he bring in another site manager that can kind of mentor or guide them along, it might get additional costs, but you might not only need it for only, maybe a couple of months, you know, but maybe do a something specialist or something, you know, versus a manager, because, you know, someone coming from no experience and all of a sudden being a manager, that can be kind of a little hard. Right. To, you know, to kind of coordinate all of that stuff. You know, like, I remember on the main line, my niece was, I mean, she was only a teenager, she became a store manager and I'm like, what? Responsibility for keys and, you know, all this kind of stuff. I'm like, what? She's so nice to be like, what? So I was kind of like a little alarmed with that one. I go, oh, that's kind of scary. But just because you're hiring someone, this is all I'm actually mean, you have to give them a manager title, right? You can kind of give them an interim title and let them work into that, you know, and then also make sure you check with them. Like, we always check with Duncan Ark. He's a big condo labor attorney that we always refer to. And make sure your contracts are all in sync as well, right? So tell me about some of the bigger condos that have general manager. Oh, yeah. So general manager, you know, again, so, you know, if you're a same manager, you got to wear all the hat. If you become a general manager, you have staff that become specialists in those fields. But I always say too, I mean, you get general, every general manager should have at least done that work or know about that work. Because that's the only way you're gonna quality control it. So for example, if you're gonna head the different departments, you know, with like housekeeping, for example, how will you know if that's, because it's so subjective, how do you know if that's, you know, like a great quality? How do you know if their working schedule is accurate to the needs of the building? Are you over staff, under staff, landscaping? Do you at least have some idea of, you know, bougainvillias and hedgers, molars, and because you will be ordering equipment, putting in gas, how do you know they're not, you know, and then how do you make it like, you know, efficient, for example, for like, okay, do I need a two or three man crew to rotate around this property? Do I need to just outsource it at that point? Security guards, okay, you understand, you know, the regular swing and graveyard shift. How do they patrol? How do they enforce rules? What are they looking for? How do they answer tenants? And then, you know, and then your office managers, your admin, you know, like how do you, can you quality control their paperwork or their reports and all that? So I think, you know, if I always say, if you wanna be a good general manager, and this is again, this, I think this is the general lesson anyway, as a leader, you wouldn't tell somebody to do something you couldn't do yourself. And that's just from a respect level anyway. And that's kind of always been the cornerstone also of guarding management. When I tell a lot of our managers, if you're trying to climb up in the industry, yes, don't, you know, you wanna humble yourself and can you clean? You know what it looks like. You know what, you know, can you, and that's the process of always learning and evolving. So everybody has to start somewhere. And I think it's like anything, if you're missing some fundamentals along that process, maybe that's when it might actually surface, that weakness will surface up in like the most, you know, stressful situation. And I've seen that quite a bit, you know, and my time even prior before that, you know, consulting some of these buildings and I'm picking on some of these buildings either interim or whatever they may be. You know, I look into operations and who I fit in there needs to be able to do every facet of the job or else how do you, like you said, if you're putting together duties and scope of work, I hope you know that what that looks like to yourself. Yeah. And then you don't see too many general managers that all of a sudden they graduate from college or whatever they may be. And all of a sudden they jump to general manager. I think they'd be overwhelmed and they won't succeed. I think a lot of them probably start from lower level work their way up, you know, whether it's F and B manager operations and they move into other departments from hotels. I mean, whatever that may be. They work from the ground up and then they really learn every facet of the operations. And I think that's what these DMs, you know, the ones that are, they for sure know how to. And it's the respect and the appreciation for the work, you know, because they've done it, they've been there. So they have a level of respect and dignity for that work that the other person is doing that they used to do way back when, you know. And like you said, there's different ways to clean. Like someone was complaining to me about the way a certain person mop the hallway. And you know, with that gray paint, how it has little grooves in it. They go, no, they're supposed to do it this way. I could bottom line it. Is it clean when they're done? Whichever way they do it, is it clean? Right, right. Because it was kind of, I mean, I heard it from both sides. Two different people, different times of the day. And I told them, I can mop my floor one way. You can mop it a different way. But at the end of the day, is it clean? Right, right. Four marks, that's the bottom line, you know. So, and you know, Security Guard too, when you're a general manager or even any manager that oversees all these different people, you have to understand like Security Guards, they're licensed individuals. So you need to know what the licensing requirements are. And even like an overview of what they need to do in order to get licensed. Right, as a general manager or any manager, if you're gonna hire people, you have to know what their scope is, especially when you're talking about licensed individuals, just like with contractors, you know, you have to know what that expectation is. You have to understand your own bylaws and declarations that's like a project don't require bonding, because you're gonna be the support team for your board. Right. So you have to also help the board in making sure they follow what they need to follow. Right. Permitting, yeah, permitting has its issues, but it's getting fixed. You know, it is taking a slow turn, but it's like we can't change everything overnight over there, but it is making some really good changes. And they've kind of improved some of their turn times that I've heard from other people. And these are like bigger contractors that have these projects, I said they've seen some changes. So good, you know, and that's really good to hear. We just have to be patient. Can't move the mountain overnight. So any other suggestions you have for condominiums for boards that are thinking of switching one way or another, you know? Yeah, so, you know, so for resident managers, they have to be an employee of the city. And a lot of times that it's when they are looking for, you know, whether it's the resident manager or a state manager, and I do it as well in my hiring practices and continuation, right? It's one of the things that I wish to continue with them is what are they looking for? What is the candidate looking for? And I think that's something that's obviously when you're doing interviews, then you're doing, you know, you're trying to maybe recruit a potential candidate. A lot of times, you know, it's so easy to kind of go through the interview and the resume and you hear what they want to hear. Or you think what you, you know, it's just you're pretty much, you know, kind of groomed to do interviews, right? But at the end it's kind of like, you know, what are they trying to see? What do they want out of it? And do you see that it's a long term fit? So oftentimes, like, you know, you see a resume and like what we said, if the duties don't align with the expectation, how long will this candidate stay? Are they overqualified? Are they underqualified? You know, you have certain things that can make them stay for a long time. So no matter which they choose, like, you know, I know a lot of employees, they want to just learn, develop and grow and become better. And then do you have that in the budget to, you know, give them milestones and increases if they're performing well? So, you know, one of the things is like, you know, resident manager, you're basically putting a lot of investment in somebody already. If you're going to go to the resident manager route, I mean, they're going to move in, right? They're settled, they're there to stay, you know, and then, but how do you make that a three, four, five-year plan? Because if you're retaining somebody for four, five years, you're doing a pretty good job, you know? And then you've happened, right? Yeah, yeah. And so if you don't, but if it's a trial thing, then sure, go to site manager route, you know, that's a little bit easier to, you know, cut the relationship as opposed to if somebody's living on site. Yeah, yeah. And then you want to go with a third-party vendor to see how that may look like until, you know, you want to go to full-blown resident manager. And even if you own the unit, maybe you could rent it out for a year, just to keep some of those costs. And then you can at least test it out before you really, you know, decide, okay, you know, we're going to be committed to this person. That's a good point to rent it. I mean, you know, but you already have a resident manager unit rent it out for a little while because that might help offset some certain things. I mean, that's a good point. You know, you could try that. I mean, trying is better than not trying at all. You can say you tried it. But again, sometimes you can't, if it doesn't work, I wouldn't like say, oh no, we tried it, it was horrible. I mean, it could have been just individuals learn from that lesson. Like, what could you have done to make it better? You know, did you guys fail in having written documents for him to follow? You know, and things like that. And if you're going to hire someone to me is like when it comes to repairs, if they're willing to learn, you know, or even try, try to give them that opportunity because it just makes them feel that much better. You know, and you're helping for someone to learn the business that the condo can benefit from. No, like when, when I would always, a big advice, a big advice, our recommendation, I've made a lot of associations that need to be hired in part is there's no just things, a perfect candidate. We know, because we hire all the time, we're constantly recruiting, we're constantly interviewing. A lot of times, you know, it is a niche market. It's not like somebody goes to school and say, I want to be a resident manager. There's really no pathway to it. It's really like a hands-on experience. You just stumble on it, you get lucky and you've got your way in. I see job description saying, I want a five-year minimum experience with an arm. Well, now you're limiting your pool. I mean, you have to get somewhat creative. We only have how many people here in Hawaii for a labor market. So what we do is we get creative. We look at a resume, we look at all the, maybe the little X factors, right? Like, okay, this person was in customer service all the references are great things. They show up on time, they're hardworking. They've progressed, they've stayed in organizations for a long time. So you know, they're committed. They're not just jumping all over the place. I could work with that. I could work with a lot of soft skills and true character. I think that's something that sometimes we overlook. I mean, we can look at something on a paper. They could be great on paper, but if character is not there, I'd rather have the person or character that I can groom and learn. And then from there, can I set up this person for success in the next three years, giving them training, putting them in a lot of classes that was going to benefit them. And if they succeed, give them more incentives to work harder, work better. And that's the increase in your salary or giving a bonus. And I think that is a big HR, more of an HR discipline than anything because whether it's in the kind of world or any other industry, every organization faces turnover. Turnover is very costly to any employer because of the training and the learning curve that was already set in place. And now you got to redo it all over again. So I think more than whether you get an on-site manager, resident manager, I think the real question is how do we keep this person for a long time and are we losing the right person that's gonna stay for a long time? I see more often than not, I see, even for us, I got staff that said, this is a great person, this person is great. I'm like, I don't think this person is gonna stay with us though. I don't know that they, this is just great for them. Yeah, but that's okay if we are very transparent about it and we also need that just for now, right? And so I think that's something that's overlooked it. It's almost nice knowing from the first like, hey, I'm looking for something now, but I really don't know. And we all know the job market's kind of really weird. And he may settle into it. He may like it, never had this job before because, but he's like iffy, but he applies and everybody likes him and he could be upset going, well, I'm not sure I wanna try it. You know, and he may be your guy, right? You'd be surprised, a lot of our most successful managers that have, we actually were able to place them to become resident managers that go back in our experience but they had all the other great that we knew. Cause you're gonna learn the kind of management side, the X's and O's, right? But you can't teach the other stuff sometimes. Like I said, the work ethic and the ability to learn quick. I mean, everybody's ability to learn is a wide range. So, and once you start to identify that and you start to really have a plan with your employee or your manager, I think no matter what, both sides are gonna be pretty happy with being committed. And again, that's just from like any industry you go in, right? It's like, okay, we are here to commit to you for two years and this is what it's gonna look like. We're gonna put you in, once you get settled in after you've passed six month probation, maybe we'll give you a just increase, cause there is gonna be a negotiation back and forth. Somebody's gonna ask for 16, and say, you know what, we'll give you 57 to start. If you can make your six month and it's satisfactory, give you that 60. So it's constantly, like they have something to work for and you have something to measure. And a lot of it could just be proficiency. So, okay, in six months, you show me a proficiency and the governing document. And we can measure that through how many house rule violations have come through and how have you result that issue, how quickly. With the property manager may be able to look at it and say, you know what, you interpreted that correct or you did not interpret that correct. You're able to turn around really quick and issuing that letter. Same thing with maintenance things. They're like, okay, you know what, if you get proficient in getting bids, right? Like, how well are you in getting us standardized bids, putting in a report? I think those things are measurable and then that way you can start to, and also the employee is gonna feel a lot more motivated because they know they have something that's objectively able to chase. Because what is good, right? Good is always gonna be pretty relative. So, I think that's gonna be a big factor. I think right away, it was in the next, I don't know how many 10 years just because of the labor market. Okay, one last question. So how do you suggest your people that you hire, how do you suggest that they handle when a resident or it could be a board member that tells them how to do their job? All right, that was all the time. I know. I mean, this is where customer service has to come in first. Just say, okay, I hear you. You know, a lot of it is hearing the complaints and everybody has complaints and you know, and I always say this, you know, like learn the condo law, learn the 514b because in there it says a board member outside of a board meeting is an owner like everyone else. So they have, you know, they could voice their opinion like everyone else. But also right before you get to the job, know your protocol, you know, who do you answer to? Property manager, board president, kind of like a trifecta, or your chain of command. Listen, bring it up to, you know, escalate it to the necessary parties that need to address that. You know, most certainly you have every resident manager, state manager, building manager, general manager, just like in any job, right? You need to know who you have to report to and then you got to know when to bring things up because probably that's not going to be your battle. It needs to be escalated to whoever is, you know, the higher up is, you know, the one that's supposed to be handling that situation. Yeah, and I think that's the hardest thing for a resident manager or a site person or even the landscaper guy that's coming to treat it. Someone's coming up going, oh, you're trimming the trees, oh, I used to like it the better this way, you know, and it kind of gets really hard, you know, for them to absorb all of that being, you know, he thought he was doing a good job and someone's criticizing him like, no, you know. That's kind of hard. Yeah, so I always say we have like default things, like for example, you know, somebody's saying that, oh, okay, now I understand, I'll bring it up to my community supervisor, I'll bring up the private manager and the board president and the board that, you know, that you saw this or you wanted me to, you know, focus on that first. I apologize, I just got directed to do this. This is the task that I've been directed and that I got to follow. But I will certainly bring up your picture to the board president because that's something that's probably going to be spoken about in board meetings. But same thing, if they don't know the answer to something, okay, let me write this down and let me get back to you through your research. If it's in a gray area, make sure you ask the private manager first and then you inform the board so that you're not going to make a decision or you're not going to inform the owner on something that's completely inaccurate that could make you look, you know, that could cost your job or give you a reprimand because I see that happen all the time too. Like it's tough because as resident managers or state managers, there's a lot of owners who have all of, you know, who have an opinion, who want, you know, they feel like, you know, they interpret things all different ways. But, you know, as a manager, one of the most important key things to make sure of our life, you want to make sure that how you interpret it, what, we're just there to do the comment. A lot of times they say, oh, you come with my room, I need this fixed. And, you know, that's when you're starting to meddle into some, you know, murky areas, you know, just because you want to please everybody and you, and let's face it, you know, we got, we tell managers, you can't please everybody. You're just being fair. You're going to do your job to the best of your ability. You're going to make mistakes, but make sure you also know your, you know, your duties, your parameters and what kind of things. And there's some owners, I told them, I said, well, you know, they're going, well, he's interrupting this. You spoke so beautiful and I go, let me ask you this question. And if it's pertain to landscaping, I said, is he changing something around? And I said, is he, maybe you should ask him a question like, is there something broken? Because there was one, I mean, there were things to about one area that they were kind of taken to the part. And I said, so if it's constantly wet, that area, to me, that's the red flag. And that's why they're doing something because there's a leak somewhere, you know, or they're trimming something because the rats will trim, climb the trees and jump from roof to roof. Or it'll scratch against the building and it's disruptive to that person where that wall is. You know, I said, so you guys can't be always like, well, we like it this way. There's sometimes reasons why certain things are going to get done for certain reasons. And it's maintenance issues, preventive maintenance, you know, trying to figure things out. So I said, you guys have to be open to listening and listening to the why's and why it's being done. Because a lot of times there's a reason why. There is, yeah, it's interesting because we manage townhome associations and you know, honestly, the landscape and all of their pots and plants, it looks beautiful, but it starts to touch the eaves, starts to touch the roof. But in the house rules, right? It says there are limited common elements. So, you know, and that's why we always train our managers to read the rules and they're there for good cause. You know, it's to make sure you maintain the value. Like once they start to go through, you know, the fences and all that, that's more cost associated with repair later. So if they can kind of, you know, communicate that. I remember one area was, and that area, we ended up cutting it and that's where we figured out there was all the rats for congoing. So it was just trimmed down to bear, kind of get rid of them or get them under control at least. So, you know, where they're hiding and stuff like that. So we had told that the people that I told, they were fine with it. When you're solving that, you know, that's the goal of it. Right, right. Okay, Derek, so I think we're at the nearing of our show. I really, really thank you for spending the time with us and going through it. This was very helpful. And I think it'll give a lot of boards of insight on their decision-making, on their management, their onsite management for their properties. I really appreciate you joining me today. It was very informative. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Okay. Thank you, Derek. And thank you everybody for joining us. Hope to see you guys again next week for another show.