 Andres Gomez and Mielsen, hello again brother. Hello again brother, how's it going? I'm so excited that we'll get another round together after almost two years since the last round, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's been a while. That's right. And we've done several episodes with Quality Research Institute. We've done several episodes on consciousness. We had the computational properties of consciousness. We had the chemistry of consciousness. Now we'll be unpacking also energy and consciousness. Yeah. And we'll get to hear about a good amount of what's transpired over the last two years for QRI. And also just like mystically and quantum mechanically. That's pretty much like the core of science and spirituality merged and where the riddles are at. Yeah, it's happening, it's happening. Yes, cool. So why don't we start things off with this question and then we'll have you slot in any time you need us to visit some of the stuff that's transpired over the last couple of years as examples and information, we can pull that up visually. So let's start with how does energy, how does what underlies everything create this? Yeah, great, we're going right into it, Andres. There's no simple stuff when you have me interviewing. It's all good, it's all good. How does energy come out of nothing and how these like crazy energetic exchanges that are happening every day, like where do they come from? I think I've thought very deeply about this question. I have a video essay on it. Basically, if you go to my YouTube channel, it's called, why does anything exist? Or why is there something rather than nothing? And I'll say the following, like A, I think a lot of people dismiss this question mostly because the style of explanations that you may kind of like require in most kinds of problems simply don't apply here. Right, like most types of explanations are based on, for example, causal structures. And of course, like when you're talking about like, how does something, why does the causal structure exist to begin with, then you're kind of like left in a way that you actually need to exit that frame if you want to get any kind of answer. So ultimately, I think like the kind of explanation that we will get will not be of the sort of how was the universe caused? Because again, that's kind of like assuming the frame of causality. Instead, I think the kind of frame that we should be investigating is one of implication. It's not that the universe was caused by something, is that the universe is implied or entailed or like logically necessary as a function of something else that is primary and actually impossible for it to not be the case. And the thing that I think basically there's like three lines of evidence that I think like kind of converge in the same point, which is, and this is from David Pierce, it's called zero ontology. But basically there's something very curious and I'll kind of like briefly outline these three things which is what exactly is zero or what exactly is nothingness that we have like such a difficulty actually grasping or imagining it, whatever we imagine it as obviously it's not it. So my claim would be that actually we currently have a pre-theoretical understanding of nothingness that there is such a thing as nothingness. It is not what we are trying to imagine when we bring up that word. There's something much more profound. And it shows up in three completely different places that I actually suspect are the same thing from different angles. So number one is physics. Like it seems that the total energy of the universe is actually zero. If you add up the potential energy and the negative energy that comes from, yeah, basically like space expanding, you add all of that together, that's zero. If you add together the total electric charge of the universe, that also is zero. The same with like many other properties, you know, the total curl or the total divergence in the fields of physics. All of that comes down to zero. And in a way, you know, in quantum mechanics, yes, like many of the things that you will see is kind of like how kind of like from the quantum void, you get like a particle and an antiparticle. And there's kind of like a universal accounting system to make sure that everything actually adds up. And I think like, you know, anything that exists will have kind of like that underlying accounting system that from a strange angle, maybe it makes it equivalent to nothingness or equivalent to the void in a strange way. Maybe reality is kind of like the void scene from a different point of view. That's number one. The second is mathematics. That like, essentially every number implies every other number, right? Like you cannot have the number 42 without the number 43 or without the number two, right? Like they all entail each other. It's not that the 42 causes the number 43, is that the number 42 entails or implies the number 43. And they're kind of like observation here is that maybe really the number that really exists is, I don't know, I think you're a bit frozen, but okay, I'll continue, which is the number zero, which is, okay, hi. Yeah, I froze on the desktop and I'm now on my laptop, the same issue came up yesterday. I thought the desktop had come up with a solution to it, but apparently not. So I will power cycle my desktop while I use my laptop. So please do continue. Perfect, perfect. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so like the number 42 does not cause the number 43, right? It's not a causal explanation. The number 42 implies the number 43. They're logically necessary one another. Likewise, we think that maybe the number zero is like truly a fundamentally necessary, like you can't get rid of the number zero. And it implies the rest of the numbers. I mean, there's a lot of like cool mathematical constructions of how you can get from the empty set, you can create like any number by nesting the empty set in interesting ways. So that, and that's math. The final one, which is the one that actually excites me the most is phenomenology, that actually on these like very like advanced stages of meditation or, you know, the extreme cases like 50 million DMT, you can actually experience, I think zero ontology firsthand. We're basically, there's these very common experience in Buddhism, they call it the rainbow body. We're like basically everything is experienced as kind of a diffraction of like the one light, you know, speaking metaphorically or literally depending on who you talk to. And that's kind of this diffraction of all of the possible colors and feelings and sensations at once. And then you look at it from a different angle where like they all line up perfectly and it all cancels out. And you actually get kind of this void and kind of you can go back and forth. And like on a low dose of 50 million DMT, this is not that rare. Like, you know, it's maybe one in five chance that you may actually experience kind of this phenomenon. And I would say that that is probably a phenomenological demonstration of zero ontology. They're like, yes, actually consciousness is fundamentally kind of this, you know, void with zero information, but it is kind of a non-stable void and you can energize it and it will diffract and it will create all of its possible colors. And that is not just that theoretical thing, it's something that you can actually experience. And I think it's like something that can actually be studied. And ultimately, I also think that, you know, consciousness will fit in the paradigm of physics and vice versa. Physics will fit in the paradigm of consciousness and that leads this like very advanced stages where you experience the rainbow consciousness, flip-flopping towards like the void consciousness that those will have like very important physics equations that describe them and like actually probably, yeah, that's kind of like the source. You wanna understand the big bang, probably understanding that type of a boundary in consciousness is very important. I guess I like one last thing about this whole zero ontology paradigm, which is that what's really kind of exciting here is that it redefines information. So basically, we tend to think of information as like, you know, state specifications as kind of like, oh, like in a chess game, is like information is like, here's a pawn and here's a bishop and here's a king. But a different way of seeing information is as the ruling out of possibilities. They're like, when you know there's a pawn in here, that means that the pawn is not anywhere else. Like you just ruled out a whole bunch of possibilities. So in that sense, like information is taking off possibilities. And what the zero ontology would say is that what's actually real is zero information. But zero information entails all possibilities. That is like when you say like, I have a chessboard but I can't tell you anything about it, that means any configuration is possible, right? Like why is, I think it's kind of like the big bang and the universe is like that. It's like truly, actually there's no information. And as a consequence, all the possibilities are realized. So that's how energy creates the universe. Cool. Wow, the analogy that you just wrapped with is so cool, which is that if you're given a boundless space, then you're not given any other information about what's appearing on said boundless space. You'll never come to the end of appearances on said boundless space. And I like how you broke it down into, you have a what is zero, you have a math, you have a phenomenology. And I like this style of breakdown. I think it's insightful to break it down into its components and then try and synthesize them. Yeah, and physics would be the last one, yeah. Physics and phenomenology and tailing spirituality and mysticism, union with God, all this type of stuff. And this also really deeply plays into when we talk about the substrate, the substratum, that it's becoming more and more of direct experience, not just concepts of the mind, but direct experience of the heart of the gut, this really, that everything is the one light. And then that one light appears simultaneously in all of this apparent differentiation. Yep. And that's the beauty of it, is that when you see someone that is locked into their apparent cage of separation and conditioning, that that is the light appearing at a lower density of consciousness than when the light appears as a higher density of consciousness. When there is no cage, where it's just the light recognizing itself. And so maybe that would be a good question for you to ask is if you did visualize it, we could just play with one way to visualize it, which would be the light dispersion through the prism into the visible light rainbow. And so you have what appears to be this source light oneness of indescribable perfection that everything always is. And then you also have what appears to be this chakras system just like behind Andres. Yeah. And you see how apparently we see many individuals, pieces of life that seem to be in this very yellow chakra, this very sort of solar plexus shifting from solar plexus to heart. And then you see other mystics or yogis that are just blasted through their crown. And so now the question would be, well, how does the substratum, how does the substrate, the underlying light that everything is, how does that emerge as the appearance of something that is either in this yellow or in this purple? And it all at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's definitely a lot to comment on there. I mean, and like I agree with the overall kind of aesthetic like I'll mention that there's maybe some twists, interesting twists because I mean, A, it is absolutely the case that like consciousness has like different densities. And you know, this is something you can experience with meditation or psychedelics. The most, like if somebody is like complete nonbeliever that like there are different densities of consciousness, like 30 milligrams of DMT should be pretty clarifying that like, oh gosh, actually, yes. There's like these various like energy bands. And it's not just one more band. There's like several, several up of like the one that we tend to imagine as like the normal one. And of course, all of them will, if they're locked in, they will relieve themselves to be the one normal way for consciousness to be, which is, yeah, obviously not. Like we are in a very specific type of configuration. And we don't notice it because it's like fish swimming in the water essentially. But I will make the, so roughly speaking, lower densities does give you more flexibility. And that's like nice, more fluidity. And as a general rule, you will find that like lower density states of consciousness are in a sense like, it's harder to get stuck in them in a bad configuration, but it's not by any means impossible, unfortunately. And likewise, I would say like in the lower density realms, there's also like very loving, very blissful configurations that are actually, I would say like aligned with a whole. It's just that they may have like somewhat more limited information and like limited fluidity and flexibility, but it doesn't make them like bad in any way. So I would bring up more kind of a, like there's a lot of kind of this trope, I guess in a lot of circles of like, like all we have to do is increase our frequency. And I think like maybe to a first approximation, actually that can be really good. And I can explain in detail why that it can be really good. But the deeper story is that the frequency is only a piece of the puzzle. And actually the thing that matters the most is harmony. And a harmony can actually arise in any level of consciousness, just as dissonance and this harmony can also arise in any level, except probably the absolute highest, which is actually just positive for reasons that have to do with symmetry and the geometry of the other configuration of experience that essentially super ultra high energy consciousness tends to be just pure positive because it doesn't have like other configurations. But anywhere else, there are both, there's both the dark and the light side within every realm. And like somebody who might be skeptical of that also is kind of like, yeah, you can take DMT and you can encounter some pretty nasty entities up there in the higher realms of like lower density as well. And so it's not like a fail safe approach. I think rather, yeah, thinking in terms of harmony, like understanding that in a sense is not about like, the best music is not just like music that plays like the highest notes all the time, it's music that is properly harmonized. And that that is like much more sophisticated because you require the math of harmony. And even for music, that's pretty tricky. And when it comes to like three dimensional embodied objects like us, actually the math of the harmony of those objects is a lot more tricky, which is, I mean, ultimately, yeah, when we are starting at QRI, that is like one of the main pieces of our thrust is like, can we figure out the music theory of consciousness? Okay, like that. So if we were to play with this music theory of consciousness, if we were to play with the harmony, if we were to be able to envision this, both zero point energy, shunyata, nothing void, simultaneously as we envision infinite creation, infinite manifestation, infinite appearance, and we're able to envision that as both an absolute oneness at the same time as a sort of dispersion of differentiation, that then there's a music theory of consciousness around how that codependent arising emerges as what appears to be a more harmonic versus a more dissonant state of being of expression. Yeah, no, absolutely. And there's so much in here. Like one very important piece is even the, I mean, yeah, this kind of zero point of like, where we call them more technical term is like very high valence states of consciousness. And in particular, the ones that we are talking about here would be high valence, high energy state of consciousness, which always connects to the whole question of energy. And we will bridge it in a second. But basically we think that what gives rise to the dissonance in our experience is actually asymmetries in the shape that is our consciousness. And the analogy that we can think of it is like, if you have kind of a bowl that has like a lot of hairs, this is called the hairy ball theorem, it doesn't matter how you comb it, it will always have like a hair sticking out. And so there are some configurations of consciousness that like, you may rearrange the deck chairs so to speak, the thoughts and ideas and the feelings, but it doesn't matter how you rearrange them. There's still something that feels off. It doesn't fit properly. And it's like, it's an impossible puzzle. I mean, just as like combing a sphere, it's impossible. If mathematically it will always have the kind of these like sticking hair or vector. But if you try to comb a donut, you can actually do it. Like you can comb a donut circularly and it doesn't have anything sticking out of it. So I would think that, yeah, basically a lot of these kind of deeper transformations on consciousness through a lot of meditation or take the 5MEO DMT experience. When people say like, you know, it was perfect. It was perfectly aligned. There were no internal tensions or dissonances. It is like a perfectly combed field. Like it just, the awareness field lines are just not intersecting with each other. It makes this, yeah, beautiful kind of toroidal energy system, you know, to speak more loosely. And here's like what I'll say, like people who experience this, they will often say like, you know, that was ultimate reality that was perfection. I'll mention this. There are many other shapes that have that property that may even feed to more energy. So I think like it kind of like maybe us is kind of developing souls, if you will. Yeah, basically it's like we're kind of like a sphere. I would like upset that we can't comb ourselves like fully and be completely satisfied. And then like maybe we do very serious practices and all of a sudden we can reshape ourselves into a torus and think like, wow, okay, this is perfection. What we don't know is that there's this other, you know, like way more advanced entities that can shape themselves into those four dimensional manifolds that can also be combed, except that they can store like thousands of times more energy and like explore thousands of times more configurations. So my intuition is that, yeah, I mean kind of in the, the levels of possible peak love experiences or police experiences, we're barely scratching the surface. Like even the things that we say are perfect, they're still a special kind of perfect. And there's like many other varieties of perfection that are just, yeah, not explored currently. I'm curious in this hairy ball theorem, could it be that little hair that's jutting out? It could that be one of those patterns of conditioning, one of those trigger points? So it's like the perfect little piece of hair that's sticking out exactly for a catalyst to come and hit it so that it then has to like turn inward and analyze that conditioning to awaken more. Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah, think of it as like a trigger point is not about an analogy here because if somebody triggers you, right, somebody says like, X is not true, but part of your core belief system is that X is true. There's like somebody coming to your sphere and trying to like, come with that little hair. But then like that has like profound implications where it's like the spheres cannot become anyway. So like the, you know, it's kind of you're robbing you the wrong way literally in this analogy. And like the uncombed hair will start propagating and then like all of the sphere will become kind of haywire and you'll need to rearrange yourself. And yet it's a very big task. Whereas, yeah, if you're somebody who kind of like live in a torus consciousness instead, maybe you're untriggerable, people cannot trigger you. There's no place where you will have like a strong reaction because everything is perfectly smooth and combed. I love that. And also that if you're really purifying yourself of all of your separation and all of your conditioning, then you will earnestly get a reflection from someone and you will turn on that little hair and you will gently and lovingly, radically accept it and love it and then transcend it. And then the hairball shift energetically and then a new level of hair will pop out. The next catalyst that comes in a month or whenever the next one comes. When the next even more deep pattern of conditioning propagates itself into the field where if you look at it from the very source itself into the field using the mind, body, spirit, complex that's here, into the field that when every single from the source of perception itself, when every single utterance into the field is of the highest density expression, it's more pure service. It's more in honor, in serving creation awakening rather than extracting for the unit of self that it's identified with. How does that style resonate as well along with this energetic emergence that the emptying of self is what happens as the core insight as one increases in density. Increases in density of life. Huge overlap. So here's what I have to say. So I mean, we very much think at QRI that consciousness is actually a field and like the way the brain works is that it's pinching making a topological pinch on the field of consciousness and is using the holistic behavior of the field in order to do computation. Which is, yeah, a crazy thing. I mean, from this perspective, evolution actually, the reason it cares about consciousness is because it's a very efficient computational system energetically and in terms of runtime complexity. But then like, it's actually recruiting a tiny piece of universal consciousness to do the beating of the genetic, self as gene or whatever it may be. But no, I mean, consciousness itself has interests. And one of the things I talk about is consciousness versus replicators. They're like, we currently are in a point in the evolutionary history where the actual desires and what consciousness wants has a chance of manifesting in reality. They're like, in a sense like through us, we can choose to actually try to benefit consciousness rather than just our selfish genes or just patterns that are good of making copies of themselves. I mean, there's a lot of them like from viruses to infectious memes or toxic ideas to all the way to kind of like, yeah, I mean, essentially something like a super computer, self recursively improving AI and things like that. Which is, yeah, kind of like counter to like actually the well-being of consciousness, which is truly what matters. And the way in which that happens is by the organism being shaped in such a way that it convinces consciousness that who it truly is is whatever patterns is kind of like keeping the consciousness hostage. Which is a very crazy thing, right? Like when people have a very strong ego is actually something like a Stockholm syndrome, right? It's like the patterns themselves are very punishing. And in order to avoid the punishment you just do whatever they ask you to do. Which is, yeah, just such a sad situation. It's like consciousness is being held hostage by our, yeah, the selfish genes we could say. And the way in which I think that's fundamentally implemented. It has to do with basically this concept of viscosity and agglutination that our default mode of experience is one where we are constantly kind of like carrying a center of mass that we associate as like this is the self or this is my individuality or you know, my history and hearing about traumas and my pains and my pleasures. And it's a very visceral thing. I don't think it's only theoretical. Like you can actually notice like, okay, like where do I identify? Like I'm just behind my eyes or like I'm over here or like maybe I am stuck in the dyadic relationship with somebody or basically there's all of these kind of like points where you get agglutination and condensation that happens and they function as an energy sink actually. And whenever things like that happen in your nervous system, which is that that's like the default mode. I mean, that's like how we evolved and for the most part, that's what we are. They function as energy sinks and also as blockages. Basically waves of energy cannot travel smoothly because they get reflected and interfere with these points of agglutination and kind of a long cycle of like, you know meditation annealing, neural annealing via meditation or psychedelics can slowly actually break down that center kind of like center of mass and the breakdown will have like some pretty reliable kind of like stages along which and I mean, obviously the stages of insight as described in mastering the courtesies of the Buddha the lens of like, hey, yeah, this is like annealing processes, breaking down the sense of self. I think, yeah, that's a very good lens to make sense of all of these. And it also explains kind of that like in a lot of kind of these intermediate stages between like, hey, like a fully condensed ego and a non ego kind of field of consciousness. There's like a lot of strange intermediate places where like, there's like ego fragments, for example that are like still being worked through and all sorts of crazy things can happen in that process. But, you know, apparently there's a light at the end of the tunnel. But yeah, I mean, the thing to note here is that I very much think that, yeah, it's something like like it is kind of like the Harry ball theorem that like our sense of self or ego as this like point of agglutination of attention field lines. It is literally kind of like a place where you have these vector fields actually sticking out and they function as kind of trigger points and they function also as energy sinks and energy blockages. So anyway, all of these, yeah, it's kind of through the lens of a math and topology. Okay, this is great. So could it be that the, I'll share the word with you that I've been playing with that, I think fits into this perfectly. I've been calling it a neuro knot. K-N-O-T. A neuro knot. A neuro knot, awesome. Yeah, a neuro knot, yeah. Neuro knot, good. A neuro knot, yeah. So that, yeah, I'll write it here also for people. Yeah, yeah. Neuro knot, so it looks like this, neuro knot. And so it's been fun playing with this because it's as though there was this character called Alan a couple of years ago that had a lot more of a neuro knot of conditioning and egoic patterns of behavior, a much more contracted energy of expression trying to extract in relationships, all this type of stuff. And now there's the appearance of this Atlas character now and that this Atlas character feels like so much of that neuro knot is totally liberated, that so much of the patterns of conditioning, so much of the patterns of ego, so much of that has dissolved, so much separation has dissolved, so much more recognition of the underlying suchness is now present in the moment to moment experience an awake presence of love and compassion. And so that's very interesting in relation to the Harry Ball theorem. It would potentially be something like that as we dissolve more and more separation that and dissolve more and more of that conditioning that in a sense it's like lighting the Harry Ball on fire. And as though there is, yes this time where the hair pieces are all over the place and then they slowly get less and less all over the place and then it's only a little bit left but we're burning it simultaneously and then it's all burned up but now here's the trick because so this is the trick is that there's what I would call a quantum superposition that's happening. So it's a quantum superposition because the neuro knot is both filled with conditioning and separation but it's also filled with the concepts that enable you to know what an apple is or when, you know, when Andres says hey Atlas will you go grab the microphone from the room? You know, you don't say I don't, you know what those symbols mean. And so this is what I say after that is an empty polymath. So the ball, the hair ball has been completely burned in this ascent, completely burned but it's in a superposition where you can very easily access as needed the proper concepts. So how does it influence this? How do you resonate with this neuro knot empty polymath? Yeah, yeah, I get what you mean, I think. So let me see a couple of things. So the first one is, yeah, I mean, there is this saying in Zen Buddhism that like, you know, the first stages is kind of like where, in a sense like everything, you're able to kind of like start to visualize like, you know, higher realms and like a lot of like interesting stuff and it's very, very kind of like based on form, maybe very sublime, you know, you may encounter like, you know, deities like Tara or, you know, whoever it may be, but it's kind of like a play of form. And then there's kind of like this stage where basically you leave behind form and it's all about basically formless consciousness. But then there's like an even more advanced stage which is like the combination of both, like simultaneously. And I guess like hearing from Frank Yang as well, like he was describing that like after his big awakening, the way he describes the phenomenology is, which stuck with me very deeply because this sounds really awesome. He says like, he feels like now he's permanently in a superposition of ninth Jannah, which is like beyond being a non-being, together with, I think like fourth Jannah, which, or like fifth Jannah, infinite space, together with like normal everyday life consciousness and they're all simultaneously present. And that actually sounds like an amazing, you know, hedonic value, an amazing way of being that like, if you can have direct access to these like different modalities of consciousness simultaneously and they're in harmony, like that seems like a, I mean, again, from the music theory perspective, the music theory of consciousness perspective, those are like these very precious gems in the state space of consciousness that are like, you know, you need a lot of mining and a lot of refinement to find them. But like if you can, you know, it's an amazing lifelong improvement. I guess like another, the other thing that comes to mind is, yeah, I mean, with 5MEO DMT, I mean, the explanation that we have at QRI is that, this comes from Michael Johnson, basically, there's an overlap between 5MEO DMT and MDMA in that they both seem to essentially give rise to a feeling of a unified field in your body and mind where like waves propagate, waves of energy propagate without resistance. And like, how could that possibly be the case? One possible neurophysiological explanation is that we have a lot of different types of neurons. And so like, if you look at the spiking curves of like electric potential for neurons over time, depending on the neuron, that will look very different. Like a certain energy neuron, the spike looks very different than a dopamine neuron than an NMDA neuron. But we suspect that 5MEO DMT makes neurons spiking the same way, even if they're different types of neurons. Of course, this is an empirically testable prediction. We don't know, it's a hypothesis, but it would make sense because that would mean that neurons are very different types. Like for example, your language centers and your visual centers and so on, all of a sudden can exchange energy seamlessly with each other because they're spiking exactly the same way. They have the same energetic dynamics. And phenomenologically, I mean, on a low dose of 5MEO DMT, what you will experience is you have your conditioned patterns kind of like all over your nervous system. And then you have this undercurrent of a universal field of energy where energy can move through without resistance. But they're both kind of simultaneously. And actually a lot of it will feel like the field of energy behind is like teaching your patterns of conditioning. Hey, this is why this is so dissonant or like this is the problem that you have like stuck inside of you. Like, look, it would be so much easier if you could just manage energy in this unified field because you don't get stuck, you don't get these patterns of dissonance. In higher doses, of course, there's like this interplay where as the energy in the unified field increases, the patterns of conditioning become very scared and actually may experience a lot of dissonance. And then there's the critical point of like whether you let go, in which case you become the unified energy field or whether you resist and you end up being this dissonance between the unified field and your pastiche of fields as we usually would be. But I think, I mean, if you let go, but are still okay with kind of like the patterns of conditioning, I think you can have like exact, you know, you can have your cake and eat it too. And that's my suspicion that like, it's not gonna be that, hey, you have to abandon everything. Yeah, you can have your eight and eat it good. My would be that I would close that reflection. I'm really glad that you shared what Frank has been sharing with QRI as well. And he's mentioned you guys several times and you've been featuring him on the show and whatnot. Nice. Yeah. And it does really feel like more and more an absolute unboundedness, an infinite spaciousness, a pure potentiality that's indescribable. Also a total awake presence, but also an ineffable transcendence. And then it also feels like a total ordinary person. Yeah. So you're like, you are infinite space while you're having a conversation with someone at the grocery store. Yeah. And that is you're totally present with them. And you recognize that it's just infinity talking to itself and you are also totally transcended out of the dream that is the universe. And these feelings that begin intellectual, they become more experiential. And then you really begin feeling them in your heart and in your gut and they become visceral. And moment to moment experience becomes that. And anytime you sort of stray away from being boundless space and you get into a couple of discursive thoughts, oh my gosh, it hurts, it hurts, it hurts so much. To contract the energy, it hurts. That's what it is. It's a contraction or as you say, it's a dissonance. The dissonance hurts in comparison to the harmonic. Yeah. Yeah. Relative to Nirvana, everything hurts. Even an ice cream, even tea. Yeah, that's been a big theme that we've been chatting with Frank about on the show and I'm glad you brought those up. And it feels like another important one for us to play with is, so are we thinking that if we were to maybe create a visualization that there's and we'll use concepts to try and explain this as best as we can, but that we have a zero point energy and then we have some sort of quantum field theory with electromagnetism, light, infused with love, that oneness that is then appearing as form as separate form that is then also differentiated based on its density of light. So there's, again, it was zero point energy, quantum field theory, electromagnetism, love, light and the appearance of differentiation and densities of consciousness as form. How does, yeah, how does that resonate with what you've been studying? Yeah, I mean, I'll comment a couple of things. Maybe the first one, yeah, is, I mean, in quantum mechanics, like zero ontology, I think like fits really well. The content that I would recommend anybody to look at is in YouTube, you actually can find like a series of four lectures by Richard Feynman on quantum electrodynamics and they're very, very accessible. I think like a non, like if you'd never studied physics, you have a high school math, but like a desire to really understand it, like he explains it super well for like a general audience and basically, yeah, I mean, what is the case in physics and it's crazy is that the probability of observing certain event given other event is basically you think of the initial conditions and the point of observation as boundary conditions. And literally what happens in between those two is that every possibility gets realized. It's just that most of them end up cancelling each other out. They cancel each other's amplitudes and it just get oftentimes is just going to be the shortest path. In some corner cases, you actually get like light travels through the longest path as well, which is an interesting result from the same theory. Yeah, most people think that light only travels through the shortest path, but actually sometimes it does through the longest path and it's for the exact same mathematical reasons that like every other path cancels out except what's called the extremists in physics. And all that you ever observe, I mean, I'm just gonna joke here, but like all that you ever observe is actually the extremists of physics, meaning that in some deep sense, extremism is true. Anyway, that's kind of like a geeky physics joke, but yeah, extremism is true because all that ever happens is the extremists of physics, which is basically shortest paths or longest paths. And that is derived through literally just adding up all of the possibilities at once and then just doing what's called a path integral that essentially cances out almost all of them except the shortest path. But the other ones that still happened is just that you didn't observe them. They're not affecting you because they're kind of canceling their own influences. So the idea here is that, well, that happens when you have two boundary conditions, but in the big multiverse, in the entirety of everything, there is no boundary. Therefore, actually what ends up happening is all possibilities actually become realized. So it's kind of like if you take the Feynman diagrams but without a boundary condition, I think that would be my explanation of actually what's going on for why there's something rather than nothing. And those Feynman diagrams is the only way in which you can actually maintain zero information. So everything, yeah, it's kind of this universal accounting system. Again, everything being pure consciousness at the bottom of it. And the second thing I want to show you is that actually if you Google, in quality computing, it's called healing trauma with neural annealing. And if you share the screen of that, I'll show you a picture that I think is very relevant for what we're talking about. Healing trauma with neural annealing, right? Yes. And there's actually quite a few really good slides in there to maybe briefly touch upon. But yeah, actually let's just go through a few of them and I'll get to the diagram that I want to show you as well in a second. Okay, so this is what I have up here. Is this correct? Yes. Yeah, so if you go down a little bit, so the first slide actually, after the video, that one, psychedelic epistemology. Yeah, so this is, I mean, some people may add, people ask like, why should I listen to you about like states of consciousness and psychedelics and so on? I mean, here's the reason. Like, at QRI, in quality computing, we've been like putting a lot of effort into actually systematizing this, like actually like mapping out the state spaces and saying new, meaningful and non-trivial things about these states of consciousness rather than just, I saw pretty colors or something like that, or just saying something like, oh, and it was exactly what Alan Watts said, which is also cool, but it's not necessarily advancing the field as much. But the one very deep reason is that, A, we basically are very systematic about like cataloging the state space. B, we actually try to find the core dynamics that explain everything else. So like, it's kind of like we, if a biologist is just interested in, you know, describing Beatles, that's not as like, as general as like trying to describe how evolution works. And the same way, somebody may be honing in on a specific meditation practice, what we're doing instead is like finding what are the principles that give rise to different kinds of states of consciousness. But then the third one is really kind of like a shanga of serious psychonauts, you could say. They're like, since 2015, you know, that I've been writing, you know, articles like how to secretly communicate with people in LSD or algorithmic reduction of psychedelic states. I've been receiving a lot of correspondence from like a lot of different kinds of people. Some of them are like very crazy. Like I definitely get like correspondence of like, oh, I took DMT and the reptilians are real and they're controlling the world. Like I definitely get like that type of email. But also I get emails from like, hey, like I'm a PhD physicist from MIT and I do DMT on the weekends. And like, here's like my thoughts. And like, I think your article is correct for these reasons and is wrong for these reasons. So basically, and I connect those people to each other. So basically by now there's kind of like a pretty solid like community of actually super smart, very systematic people who have like very deep experience in these things. Just to give you like one other example here is like we host these things called, I mean, they're private events for obvious reasons, but this thing called Phenomenology Club where like basically we invite people with like very deep experience in a particular area. And then we basically interview them collectively and we try to figure out if the models that we're proposing align with their experiences or if they don't. And so a lot of the content in, you know, these article healing trauma with Neural Anealing is really content that has been tested with people who have like very deep experience. And when I say deep experience, I actually mean it. Like in the in the recent Phenomenology Club where we were interviewing people who've done a lot of 5MEO DMT, we had like three people in that club who all of them had done 5MEO DMT every day for six months. Like Leo Gura did it for like, you know, 25 days and made a video about it, but like here we are talking with people who've done it every day for six months and they're not crazy. Like they actually like make sense and they can articulate their experience. And anyway, so that's what we call the think tank model that like originally in most of science right now, like what is going on is that they do this kind of like third person perspective study that gives Sylvain to like a hundred participants. They fill out a questionnaire and that's it. Like they don't even talk to each other. There's no in the scientists usually are not actually interested in like what they experienced. They're just interested in like, oh, will the questionnaire reveal a statistically significant difference relative to control or something like that. And then you have the other approach which is the kind of individual explorer kind of like John Lilly or Sasha Shulgin going very deep. But then the downside there is that there's no critical feedback. Where like they just kind of like go into their own world and write awesome books, super interesting. But then the output of that tends to look more kind of the earth coincidence control office and other things like that as opposed to like, what are the mathematics of like consciousness? So I would say that, yeah, at QRI, we legitimately are like a new model for like how to study consciousness. And like it's really only possible because of kind of a critical mass of people who are, you could say like our ally have like an alive thread on these spaces. So anyway, that's a chart I wanted to show you. I'm wondering if you have any reactions to it. Yeah, immediately is the reaction of this is what happens when all of the separate spiritual islands and scientific islands, when they all come together into the think tank model, there is way more mountains that can be moved in maximizing collective prosperity. Way more insights, way more distortion patterns being revealed. And it's exciting because when the individual looks are shifted more into the think tank model, that that's what assimilation really is. And it's quite nice. It's like when, I don't know, it's very beautiful. Like when you meet other, like I guess like deep practitioners in, and it doesn't have to be psychedelics. Like, I mean, we also do this for like, for example, like perfume, like we've interviewed people who are like expert perfumers or like a perfume reviewer and like, but it's like very similar as in like, these people who have been going very deep into like the subtle gradients of a certain type of consciousness that nobody else like knows that there's like all of these varieties. And then it's kind of like, you have like this box of like your collector items of like, oh, this is all that I've collected over the years, but nobody can appreciate it. Nobody knows what I'm talking about. And then you find another collector is like, oh my gosh, I also have this one. I don't have that one. That's cool. Exactly. That's so perfect. And one of the relatable ways to explain this would be, remember I was sharing earlier how, if you keep your attention on the very source of perception itself, you keep your attention on suchness itself. And then you're very vigilantly watching every spontaneous appearance, emergence happening. That if you're really vigilant and really subtle, you can become aware at what density of consciousness words are being spoken at in the field and out of your own mouth. And so then when you pass time with mystics that have underwent a more intimate union of deconditioning themselves and from all separation from all ego, empty of self, pure Tao, that their ability to spotlight the patterns of conditioning even at the highest levels as they leave out of people's mouths is unprecedented. And so that's one of the top reasons to also enter into these think tank models is because of that exact profound revelation and to fearlessly go into the fire. Yeah. Fearlessly, because you will be, those distortions will be pointed and you'll have one part of you that's your conditioning, which is that selfish gene that desire for self-proliferation. And then you'll have the opposite of that, the truest capital S self that wants you to empty the fuck out of all of that bullshit. And fearlessly walk into that fire, my friends. That's the entire game is played right there. So yeah, I mean, not to this all on all replicators because I mean, in the end, we will actually require a seamless blend between pure consciousness and replication so that we can carry the torch forward, we could say. Yeah. It's not that when you're completely empty, you never have sex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There aren't these mutually exclusive, you know, when, you know, the last in the Zen 10 bowls, the very last one is he's back in the market drinking wine. Nice. Yeah. You're still an ordinary bra while you're an infinite bra. You still have that, like you're saying that, but it's not coming from a place of separation. Like I need to extract sex out of this scenario for me to feel whole stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm very optimistic. Like, I mean, this is obviously like a, not everybody will think the same here, obviously. I suspect you actually will probably find this idea pretty compelling, but it's very controversial, I'd imagine. I don't know. But like, I suspect that actually, I mean, essentially like this, like having like very reliable, very positive techniques to like experience oneness directly is not only good for all, for our health and for our wellbeing and also for, you know, like acting kindly to others and so on. I think it actually will probably play an even bigger and crazy role, which is it will change the game theoretical landscape. So right now how society works is like, I mean, essentially the systems and institutions and so on to work under the premise that, you know, people are just beating for their own interests and maybe, you know, the interests of their family, their other kin and so on. And of course there's interpersonal variability. There's people who, for example, experience like much more desire to help people who are far away, people who experience much more desire to help people who are close by. And I think like that diversity is all well and good. But ultimately a lot of kind of like the systems of, you know, the status algorithms and so on that exist in the world do kind of like assume that like basically people perceive themselves as separate. And I actually suspect that if there's a reliable way of inducing like what we call open individualism experiences, feelings of oneness in a way that is actually measurable and is verifiable, it would actually change the landscape a lot because you can make communities of people who, okay, like maybe they don't feel like oneness all the time, but they have access to it. And so even like in like conflict and negotiation and like planning and strategy, they can in a sense fast forward a lot of the kind of like game theoretical impasses that tend to happen, simply because you can jump straight to the fact of like, well, but actually we're all one and like, you know, we're just hurting ourselves by keeping arguing within these premises with this kind of like underlying background assumptions of separateness. And the same happens with like, I mean like this is the other side of the coin, which is I think like oneness will actually truly revolutionize decision theory because if you look at like a textbook on decision theory or something like that, and game theory, they look at for example, like, well you're assuming that each agent is trying to maximize the area under the curve of the utility of its own life over time, you know, or something like that, or maybe it has a decay function that's also typical in those fields. They might say like people are trying to maximize their more immediate well-being, still taking into account the further well-being but not as much. And but that's kind of like assumed into the theory that like, hey, like people are just like rationally selfish and that's it. But actually if you have people who truly believe in kind of a oneness perspective, I think you can shift towards what David Pierce calls a God's eye view decision theory, which is like, how do you maximize the well-being and happiness and love and understanding from the point of view of kind of the God's eye view? And I think that there's just like a completely different paradigm where it's a, you don't have the inbuilt background assumption of individuality and it's not a, I mean, there is kind of this very loving, like beautiful like hippie-ish kind of quality to this idea. But actually I think like in math and like in economics it will actually revolutionize how we think about power dynamics, how we think of institutions. We're not there yet. And like there's gonna be a lot of things that need to happen before like that actually has an attraction, but I predict it will actually shape a lot. And like in a hundred years from now, this is gonna be very crazy contingent of like, it's not just going to be like, you know, political factions beating for their own interests. It's gonna be like shared political factions like that, but also somewhat decentralized groups of people who are actually just beating for the sake of consciousness. And they're like developing protocols and developing methods to prove that actually they are on the side of consciousness that is not just a trick or a power graph or a power move because that is currently the obvious suspicion, right? If somebody says like, hey, I'm doing work for all of consciousness. People say like, well, you know, I'm sure you're just virtue signaling. I'm sure that's just you're trying to impress us or you know, whatever it may be, you're trying to get money from us. But if you can prove is like, no, actually mathematically, the incentive structure I just created actually works out for a heterogeneous mix of people who are just caring about their own wellbeing and people who are caring about consciousness and it produces so much more value than the previous paradigm. Yeah, I mean, societies that adopt that will actually just out compete every other society. And so yeah, I mean, essentially the I don't know how to describe it, but like, yeah, it's something kind of the real of pure consciousness. I think it's not just a hippie, you know, dream. It actually will probably like manifest in terms of changes in game theory and decision-making and economics. Yeah, this is a perfect way to slot in the the archetype that is decentralization or universalization because, and this goes directly into oneness, suchness, unity. This is that. This is that fungal network. This is mycelium. This is a biogenesis. This is one cell becoming 10 million species. You know, this is that. Yeah. And so when you bio mimic the planetary social contracts with decentralization and cryptocurrencies and fractional ownership and all of these great inclusive stakeholder protocols, it's game over because there's nothing better than that because it both empowers the, it's just the collective's absolute highest potential is when that style of protocols in our social contract are present in maximizing abundance and prosperity. So it's a biological archetype. It's a universal archetype. It's what we are. The one that's being embedded into our social contracts is exactly what is also needed in order for the individuals to actually be able to have their basic needs be met for them to be able to not only artistically express themselves but also for them to be able to turn inward and understand the nature of consciousness, the nature of reality. And so all of this feedbacks on itself, elevated consciousness gets placed into the planetary architectures, elevated planetary architectures feed right back into elevating consciousness. I'll definitely have something to mention here, which is a, I mean, I generally agree with that kind of a general direction. I'll point out there's like some interesting subtleties here which is like, for example, like one may get it under the impression that like, hey, like it would be better if everything was fractally organized or something like that. Because if something works at a certain scale and you can create something self similar at a higher scale, they will fit perfectly together or something like that. There's kind of like a lot of heuristics like that. They sometimes work, not always. And there's a good reason why they don't always work, which is that actually the scale of a particular system may influence whether the system is appropriate or not. So there's this whole concept. Yeah, I mean, I guess like one super concrete example is like people may think like, well, the body, the whole point of like the organization of the body is to maximize flow. And like it's true that like a lot of like our veins and cardiovascular system and the organization of the nervous system and so on, it is kind of like geared towards maximizing interconnectivity like within the limits of like its own geometry and the fact that we live in 3D Euclidean space, but it's not always maximizing flow or maximizing interconnectivity. Why? Because if it was doing that at every scale, it would also be very vulnerable to, for example, being like infected with like a bacteria or viruses. So actually it's a very subtle interplay where what you want is maximum flow at certain scales where resources can be distributed as fast and homogeneously as possible, but also you want the restricted flow at other scales so that things like viruses and bacteria don't propagate very well. And I mean, I definitely think that, you know, right now we are experiencing a Cambrian explosion of like ideologies, a Cambrian explosion of self-organizing systems of, you know, patterns of distribution, kinds of decentralization and so on. And I think like how they will play out actually in the complex dynamic system that is the entire world is a very non-trivial thing. I generally do think that like, you know, current systems are like overly restrictive and we're in a gridlock, unfortunately for very deep reasons that have to do with how power is basically, yeah, ends up being in a gridlock situation. But I would be skeptical that, you know, just putting everything on the blockchain in a decentralized way would actually really fix that. It might actually just create a different kind of system that has like similar problems. So instead actually the thing I tend to think as the most promising is, in a sense, not putting the cart before the horse. So like not committing to any particular mode of self-organization. Instead, I think I'm very much in favor of kind of this, the c-steadying aesthetic, you know, this idea of like, hey, let's actually create completely new societies that are not under the rule of any current empire or any current country such that we can actually from the bottom up try completely new systems of organization with the new technologies, right? This is not like, it's not about like, let's try feudalism versus monarchy or whatever it may be. We're way past that, right? Like it would actually be, oh, let's try this combination of, you know, quadratic voting together with block chaining this particular way together with, you know, new kinds of social relationships and new drugs and new neuro therapies and see what happens, right? Before we roll it out into the rest of society, we should first try it out in a contained society. If it works really well, then we try it in something that is like twice the size and we keep kind of like doubling until it breaks. And when it breaks, we learn the lessons of like, okay, why doesn't this like scale higher? But I think, yeah, kind of like these like very cautious but also very imaginative and very open approach. I guess like the last thing I'll add here is that I do think like the locus of control of the individual should always be there for two things. One is no society should be mandatory. Like to be in one of these like exploratory societies, it should be an opt in. Like it's not like currently, like if there's a revolution in your country, you know, they're not gonna allow you to leave. But like you just have to be in that country and it sucks. You may not like the new regime or the previous one, but like you don't have a choice. In the sort of like C-steadying aesthetic, you always have the choice. It's up to you whether you wanna go to a given society. And the second one is you can always choose to pack your bags and leave. I think like that's the other inalienable right for the individual from my perspective. Like people should always be free to leave whatever society they're in. And I think like with that, yeah, like the societies are actually better for the individuals and are good at self-sustaining will basically, yeah, be the ones that can like survive better as communities. And I do suspect, you know, the full thing, the thing that will actually evolve will probably be something that merges kind of like in a very seamless blend, complete decentralized systems together with some kinds of hierarchies and overlapping hierarchies together with some like anarchic style organizations. And it's gonna be something that defies current description. Like it's not gonna be something you can say, oh, that's capitalism or it's like, no, it's a new completely new thing. Like those previews categories were kind of when we were children as humans, just trying to make sense of social organisms. But actually there's camber and explosion, right? Like I guess like what I'm trying to communicate is like when people say like, hey, are you a socialist or a capitalist or something? I hear it as like, do you like dogs or cats? Not realizing that, oh my gosh, there's like dolphins too. And there's elephants and chimpanzees. There's just so many other possibilities, yeah. It will always be a synthesis or always be simultaneity. That is what the oneness, the suchness, equanimity is. It is the synthesis, it's the simultaneity. So it'll always, right now what's calling more than anything is the decentralization and the universalization and the social contract to be more around fractional ownership and inclusive stakeholder. But there will definitely also be a bunch of dolphins and ant eaters and porcupines and things that are unimaginable and it's awesome. Okay, I feel like a good place for me to ask this question, which relates to what we were talking about earlier and it tries to boil it down into even simpler terms, which is that do you feel like light is the fundamental mediator between emptiness and form? I think for, I mean, like, yeah, for a big portion of it, but actually I don't think for everything, yeah. What else is there? Yeah, right. I actually forget the name, but like they're called like carrier particles in physics. Like, I mean, basically you have light, but that's like quantum electrodynamics. So that's going to be like how electrons and protons and basically anything having to do with electromagnetism, how that, and that, yes, for sure is going to be like, when you look at like the Feynman diagrams of like two electrons moving over time, the thing that makes them either go closer together or separate is whether they exchange electrons or not. Like that, sorry, whether they like exchange photons, which is yeah, light. So light as particles will be the carrier of like energy and interaction between those particles, but it's not all because there's also like in the strong force, I mean, I forget the term, I don't think it's mions, but like basically there's like strong force carriers and like they're different. They're completely different particles. So I mean, maybe the most common one, I'll say something like that, like generally it's light, but there's other more crazy ones as well. So what else is going on between emptiness and form besides light? So quantum electrodynamics, everything that's happening is light, electromagnetic flux. What are, what is the other one? What are the other? Let me, let me find it real quick. Yeah, let me know, let me know what the title is. Ah, the glue one. Oh, you're talking, oh, you're talking about the categories of bosons and fermions and gluons is inside of those categories. Yeah, but I mean, it's, I mean, I do, I do take it seriously. I mean, like we are at Kirai, we are what we call strong monists. And basically we take the idea that like, you know, spirit and consciousness and physics, they're all sides of the same coin. And they're like, absolutely everything that you find in physics from like, you know, superfluid helium to like plasma waves to all of these other crazy things, they all have a corresponding flavor of consciousness. And in a sense, I mean, I think like when you experience something like 5MEO, DMT release, full release experience, one interpretation is that what you're experiencing there is the fully calmed electromagnetic field that has like no dissonance. And like that is, yeah, it feels, it feels like a universal unified field, but it may actually just be the electromagnetic field, but there's other fields as well. And like in our normal everyday life, basically they are all interacting with one another. And there's so many different flavors of consciousness as a result. And like for the electromagnetic component of consciousness, light would be the interplay between form and emptiness, but for other aspects, other flavors of consciousness, it would be the gluon or it might be something else. Like what? Like what and what would the gluon, because I'm looking at these two fundamental categories of subatomic particles, bosons and fermions. What besides light is happening as the fundamental mediator between form and emptiness? I think it would be all the bosons in the extreme left. So photons, gluons, W, boson, the Higgs. I guess Higgs would be for mass. I mean, this is definitely, I mean, I haven't studied this academically. So I'm not a reliable source here, but yeah, I mean, it would be something like the carrier particles would be the thing that is, it is very speculative explanation space would be that. Yeah, so the core question is something like, what besides light quantum electrodynamics is happening? Yeah, I mean, it could be like, I mean, there's one speculation which is that, like actually a lot of the qualia that we experience has to do with the other fields of physics rather than electromagnetism. And that electromagnetism is more what gives rise to binding, what allows the different qualia varieties to come together into unified experience. In which case, you know, actually when you experience a particular smell, as an example, like smell qualia could be what it is like for gluons to interact with one another or for delocalized gluons to coexist. Again, extremely speculative. So I'm not putting a lot of stock in here. I'm just giving you a crazy answer to a crazy question, but I do think though that, yeah, like a binding, like how the pieces of information in your experience are put together. I think that is actually patterns in the electromagnetic field. Like obviously this is very controversial in neuroscience, but I have a lot of good reasons to believe this. And one researcher I would point at for people Sir? Yeah, it's a Susan pocket. Susan pocket wrote a book about electromagnetic field theories of consciousness. And I thought it was very compelling. I mean, I'm happy to describe some of the arguments, but basically what I arrived at is that that research shows that it's very likely that actually binding is implemented with electromagnetism. But then there's the additional question of, but what are the individual qualia varieties? Like the feeling of smell or tactile sensations and that might be a different fields. It's just that they're bound. I mean, it's kind of like the electromagnetic, it's kind of like magnetism is kind of the magnets that I'm putting them together through these unified experience. But then you need to explain the building blocks and the building blocks might be from the other fields. So you hypothesize there is other building blocks. Yeah. So qualia is not only patterns of electromagnetism. I don't think so. But it is the main one. I mean, it's the main way to affect consciousness at the human form. Okay. So what underlies even all light and whatever else is still energy? Yes. So it's still energy modulating. Yeah. And changing form. So because you can transform the energy of a photon into a gluon or into a electron, like they're interchangeable if you do the right set of transformations. And like the lens here that I think is actually quite literally something like a weird Rubik's cube where electrons would be kind of like twisting it in a certain way and then gluons will be twisting it a different way. But I mean, in the end it's still twisting. You're still twisting this object and that would be energy. But then the type of twisting it actually matters a lot for like what happens. Where like there's some puzzles that you cannot solve unless you have all the moves available. And likewise, if you only have like light there's a lot of transformations you just can't do. You need to transform that light into other forms of energy so that you can then work that energy over there. Cool. And you just used the word work. So it's energy doing work. Yeah. Yeah. Work is literally energy times distance, right? Yeah. The transference of energy and also the potential, the ability to do work. Yeah. So also vibration, the very nature of that singularity endlessly expressing itself as pure potential infinitely, boundlessly, forever. Energy being that. Mm-hmm. Vigration. Oh. You'll never come to the end of all the different ways that you can put notes into a sound. Never come to the end of all the different ways you can put together images into a movie. You'll never come to the end of different ways to paint a blank canvas. There is a, I mean, romantically I agree in a very abstract argument I would say there probably is a limit to how big an experience can be. And that limit is probably having to do with some, the nature of physics. So, and it's a completely open question. The good experience of the metaverse not entertain you, Andres. Is that not boundless enough to entertain you? Oh, it totally is. It's more than enough, more than enough for sure. So how can you put a limit on that experience of a metaverse? Yeah, well, because I think there's a finite set of possible experiences. Like, I know it sounds crazy, but essentially, I mean, the argument is not that hard. It's basically if the amount of consciousness that your experience is actually has to do with bound energy, then the question is like, what is the largest possible amount of bound energy that can be sustained anywhere in the multiverse if you want? And I think the answer is not gonna be infinite because, you know, if something actually is infinite, parts within it, light will take an infinite amount of time to reach. And so like, in some sense, it's actually not a unified thing, but it's entangled. So it's not actually traveled. I, even with entanglement, it gets tricky, but basically even with quantum entangled systems or quantum coherence systems, the speed of light still matters a lot. Like you can see this in super fluid helium. Like if you cool down helium all the way to like less than like one degree Kelvin, it becomes like this quantum liquid that is like all one, like literally, it's not made of particles anymore. It's literally just the one wave and it's super crazy that that happens, but you know, you can do it in a lab. And even though it's like all, not even entangled, it's like literally coherent, quantum coherent, the waves of energy still take time to propagate. So just the fact that you have something coherent or entangled is not guarantee of, in a sense, kind of this necessary unity that I'm talking about. And then like, I don't think, for example, you can make an infinitely large pool of super fluid helium. You'll be constrained by like, okay, how many planets can we put together? How large can be the lab where we do this? And then like extrapolate to, for example, how do you create the largest brain? So I don't know if the largest brain is going to be the size of a house or the size of Jupiter, but chances are that- Or the metaverse itself. Or the metaverse itself. Yeah. Of course, like, you know, if we break some further assumptions of like- Yeah. There's no end. We're coming to the end. Well, so what I just presented is like the argument for why there is a largest experience. And then the argument for, okay, so that's one part. The second one is that experiences are not infinitely different from one another. Then like, if you take my experience right now and your experience right now, there is a finite set of what we call just noticeable differences, that if I were to change my experiences slightly in one way or another, I can do a finite set of transformations that take me from where I'm at to like the experience you are having. You can call that the edit distance for two particular experiences. And then essentially- I love your lexicon. Okay, great. I actually think of it as a lot of kind of like, in the future, we will have hopefully an experience Photoshop. This kind of you can like create an experience like you would create a picture, but like it also contains tactile sensations, you know, smell, thoughts, philosophy. I mean, my computer charger real quick. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, for the audience. I mean, or if you're listening to, so basically experiences cannot be infinitely different because there's always like a finite edit distance between them. And also they cannot be infinitely close. Essentially, they collapse into one another. And that is because if they are less different than a just noticeable difference from the inside, they're undistinguishable. So in that sense, that actually gives you a hard limit to basically whether two experiences are the same or not. Because if they're subjectively indistinguishable, you can just call them the same experience. And this argument shows that basically you can take the entire status of consciousness and discretize it. And you will actually be able to name with a number each possible experience. But no bounds. Where you'll never come to the end of possibilities. Well, my suspicion is that they're all already there. What for this already be everything basically? It's already the pure potential of nothing being everything. Yeah, I mean, it's the universal way of function is the superposition of all possibilities. And it just is. I mean, Same thing, the universal way of function is the same thing in the mystics called Tao, Brahman, God, et cetera. I look forward to when the lexicon is finally popularized in a synthesis and about two, and then just abundance and prosperity. And there'll be continued parallax in memetic discourse, but it will not be about as petty ego as what it is today. It will be about cool things like which flavor of consciousness to explore next. Yes. When you type stuff, yeah. We do have a bit of a headstart with the QRI Glossary. Maybe you can share a link or at least the name of it. It's easy to find. Is that online too? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on my website, the QRI Glossary. And it's not completely up to date, but it's pretty up to date. Like I would still read it. Like for a lot of people actually like probably starting like their journey or like trying to understand what quality research institute is all about. I know like it's not easy because you start reading one article and like it links to other articles and they're all kind of mutually co-dependent, but it's, you know, co-dependent arising. You know, it's, you can't avoid that to some extent, but the glossary might be actually a really good place to start because all of the terms that you will see in other articles or most of them are like defined in here, like including the ones I was just talking about, like the state space of consciousness and just noticeable differences and things like that. And yeah, I mean, in the end, I do think maybe to leave you with is going to be that. I mean, I think like cataloging the state space of consciousness is awesome, but also I'm super excited and more narrow task, which is cataloging flavors of awakening. And this is, yeah, basically something Mike Johnson is quite interested in at the moment, which is like, if you look at like three, let's say three kinds of like Buddhism, like Theravada, Mahayana and Bajrayana, like they all ultimately have kind of like a ability to reduce suffering significantly and cause interesting experiences. But basically you can say that maybe the Theravada ideal is kind of like these people who are extremely peaceful. That's kind of the flavor of that awakening. Whereas maybe the flavor of Mahayana is like extremely loving, wanting loving kindness for everybody. That's like the flavor of their awakening. And then Bajrayana is maybe they're energized. They're like very alive and like that is the flavor of that awakening. I mean, in the end, like they're all great and whichever suits your needs better might be the one you should aim to. But I suspect there's many more flavors, many more flavors of awakening to be discovered. I love that. Along with the cataloging flavors of awakening what we can do with what we're building with the no limit society and the igniting global awakening is we can potentially have these different Satori moments that can be shared with QRI in their process must have been better. Love you guys. It's a beautiful reality, a beautiful one. It's an indescribable perfection of the heart beat. Wink-a-bye. No matter what you do, no matter what's happening. Just share with me. Oh, hello. Sorry, the battery ran out of the other computer. I'm glad that you got back on a little, had a little monologue about perfection that everything is. It's quite beautiful. It's playful, hopefully kept the viewers happy and engaged. And Andreas, what I was saying was that it would be nice if everything we're doing with no limit society and igniting global awakening and capturing Satori to also collaborate with Mike and cataloging flavors of awakening with QRI. And I would love to explore doing that together because obviously I've shifted a lot. Like this has become more and more of my natural state. And it's very peaceful. And it's very one and it's very eternity or perfection that's looking. And it's becoming more and more empty of self and more and more in pure service. Everything that I've been really excited about architecting is just naturally spontaneously unfolding into those planetary infrastructures. And so it's a different flavor than like you were describing, I've seen a lot of, as has been said in Zen, there's a lot of drunk on emptiness. And there's also a lot of avoiding void as well. Those that are awake presence yet not depleted of conditioning. Yeah, so there's a lot of flavors here to catalog and explore. And so it'll be exciting to see how that unfolds together as well. That's a cool one, I like that. It's a good play. And we have plenty of people, we have over a hundred people in society. So it'd be cool to be able to collaborate and explore that. So one of the things that I would like to wrap with here is for you is the density of consciousness. Is the difference between the, let's just call it light in electromagnetic flux or the quantum electrodynamics. Is the difference in density? And I know you were mentioning that not every single always is this always coherent and harmonic. And this is always dissonant at that point. Yep. But would you say that the density, what exactly is happening in the quantum electrodynamical flux of light across the densities that then signals said solar plexus chakra versus said crown chakra. Yeah. This is where actually the picture, I never was able to show you, but from the same healing trauma of neural annealing. Healing trauma of a neural annealing has that picture. Well, you'll find it a little bit below, but basically it's a map of the state space of consciousness with two axes, which is like energy and then information content. Further below, like it's significantly further blue. That the one above, so that, yeah, if you zoom in on that, basically the y-axis is essentially the energy level, whereas the x-axis is information content. And basically if you take the empty, like what will happen is that you will go to greater energy levels and like that's kind of unavoidable. It is like a matter of dose. I mean, of course, if you're not a non-responder, that might not happen, but I mean roughly speaking, energy levels are organized in these kind of like five or six categories, which is like from threshold to chrysanthemum. And chrysanthemum basically you're still two dimensional, two dimensional energy flux, whereas like in magic eye level, actually you get like this complex three dimensional hallucinations and three dimensional embodied feelings. Waiting room, it actually becomes hyperbolic, hyperbolic 3D space or higher dimensional. And in breakthrough, it's always hyperbolic space and it's always always higher dimensional and it's like open. It does like this other quality of like openness to it. So it's not contained. Waiting room is like contained and that's similar to like the difference between like being a sphere versus being a torus, that type of transformation. But then like that's not all the information you need because also basically what is the density of the content of the information matters a lot because you could be in a very energized state where for example, you're in kind of this very crazy spaceship with machine elves and a lot of complex machinery and very irreducibly complex objects are happening. That would be kind of like in the middle, kind of like these like high energy but also high information content. Whereas to actually have like a perfectly clean experience of the unconditioned or the pure consciousness, you have to be all the way up and all the way to the left. So that's like high energy but close to zero information content where basically things are experienced as kind of like this infinitely reflecting mirror room type universes, oftentimes of hyperbolic geometry. The reason is that energy also curves a phenomenal space. Again, I'm not saying this because I want to believe it or because I just came up with it one afternoon like I'm a chair philosopher. This is the result of like the think tank process of like, no, like talking to super smart people doing this very seriously. And yeah, like basically there is this thing in physics called the Hamiltonian of a system, which is like, what are the equations that describe each energy level of a given system? And essentially like for a given energy level, you can still arrange that energy in many different ways. Like for example, what you will often see is that for let's say a magic eye level or a waiting room level, all the energy could actually be concentrated in the form of color qualia. So like it's the brightest possible blue or the brightest pink possible imaginable or like it's beyond imaginable but like extremely bright color, so bright that actually it has kind of a physicality of its own. We call it a hyper blue or hyper pink, the hyper versions of the colors. But then that energy can also shift towards for example, a feeling of embodied energy waves and that can shift towards thought forms or emotions. In general, the typical experience is going to be a kind of a balance of energies in each of the sensory modalities and each of the inner modalities. But you can concentrate the energy in one form or another. And basically what you will find is that for a given energy level, there's still a huge number of possible configurations. So like just as like there's so much poetry about like all the beauty of being a normal human being like why is there is going to be a huge amount of poetry about waiting room DMT level because there's like waiting room DMT level that is flavored in a certain way and that is completely different flavors. And I suspect there's actually even more flavors of DMT waiting room experiences than there are flavors of normal human experiences. And yeah, I actually think this is actually like a physical energy, which ultimately will be the same as like energized consciousness. And each of the discrete energy bands are actually phase transitions, not so different than for example, ice going to liquid, going to vapor, except that we're talking about electromagnetic flux tubes and what happens when you energize those. And like at first, things just become a little bit brighter. If you energize it more, then you have kind of this phase transition where like things rather than just attention moving and kind of like field lines, you can even move in kind of like whole planes. Like this is one of the crazy things that happen in high energy consciousness. So like it's not so much that you focus on things one at a time anymore. It's more like you're sending pads of awareness and attention everywhere. So that's a phase transition in like the very nature of attention and it gets crazier the higher you go in the energy parameter. And like knotted consciousness as well. Like there's a lot of those, like a lot of the, you know, machine health, high information content, high energy are like patterns of like knotted consciousness with their own exotic acoustics and again, completely exotic. We don't have really words for them, but they're the real they exist. They're possible configurations of consciousness. I'm thinking like what would be the best metaphor if there's something like, it's kind of like mod and gelatin. If you vibrate like, imagine you have like a bucket of mod and gelatin. And if you vibrated enough, they start to kind of like blend into each other and they form waves and they change the way in which energy propagates. I think it's similar like that. Like, yes, these like configuration of electromagnetic binding patterns. If you energize it, you will get these phase transitions. Again, it's not the same as from liquid to gas, but it's of that type, except that in the electromagnetic domain. And like that's, yeah, we don't really have words for those different phases yet. So the high energy, so would it be fair to say that low energy is like form? Low energy is gonna be more solidified, for sure. Okay, give me one second. Yeah, we'll wrap soon. Yeah, cause of the laptop situation. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So again, communicate our luck to. We'll do it, we'll do it. We're very grateful to be able to use the computer. So low energy is more solid like form. In general, in general. Higher energy as we go up here towards this breakthrough, that is like air. More like air, yeah. More like air and more like air dancing. Yeah, and air currents. Air currents interpenetrating themselves. Yeah, yeah. And even higher, it becomes plasma. So it doesn't end in the, we're a gas, it becomes plasma afterwards. Cool. And then, and then so when it's low information content, it's like coherence and then high information content is, what, yeah, what's the difference? So it depends on just basically, I mean, it's very related to how symmetrical. Like what does a state of consciousness that's like pure, pure noise, I don't even know. Have I felt something that's like pure noise before? You may have. I mean, the classic example is actually listening to white noise and that actually has like hedonic effects. It very high noise works as a dampening, has a dampening effect. So basically, if you are feeling very stressed out, actually listening to white noise can be soothing because it's gonna override the patterns of dissonance. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is like why waves crashing in the ocean can be so therapeutic if you're very stressed out. It's just, Are waves considered pure noise? The sound that waves make is a certain type of noise that's called stochastic fractal noise, but it is very, approximates white noise. Okay, okay. So then there's the pure noise and then what's low information content? So anything where nothing is like sticking out, there's nothing, if something is salient, it's going to be like, let's say a central point in your experience, very little information, like very coherent experiences. So, equanimous evenness? Yeah. Evenness. So, but then isn't, is pure noise not also, it's not even, that's the opposite of either. It is the opposite, except that there's also nothing salient because there's nothing that sticks out. Everything is so diluted by this total noise that there's nothing salient. And in that sense, it's very similar. But they are complete opposites when it comes to the hedonic effects that basically the lowest information content for a given energy range will be the most pleasant variety for that energy, whereas total noise is actually perfectly neutral. So then what you may ask is like, well, within where is the suffering? And suffering is actually somewhere in the middle, but it's actually more, the worst suffering is generally like kind of like close to zero information. Like, so like the complete left column, that would be perfect bliss. But then one step off to the right, kind of like around there, exactly. Like that's where like a huge potential for dissonance exists, because that's kind of like an uncanny valley where different types of symmetry can both coexist and they may be interfering with one another. So it's much better, for example, to listen to an orchestra and white noise at the same time, then listening to an orchestra and a different orchestra playing a completely different song that they're like not in tune with one another. Because I mean, that one is more ordered, there's less noise, but there's more dissonance because they're gonna be clashing with each other. So in a sense, two different like patterns of conditioning emerging is like two different orchestras playing different music. And that creates so much dissonance. Okay, beautiful. And wow, and then I love that. So, Andreas, and then would we say that then when there's a, so again, a very, a high energetic and a low information content. So there's a air plasma like interpenetration. And that there's an evenness. No specific thing is sticking out. This is the fabric or the substratum. Substrate, so. And then would that also be with this corner, this top left corner, would this be a sub-stratum? Would this be with this corner, this top left corner? Would this also be somewhat analogous to what was called like Indra's net? Yeah, it's gonna be very related. I would say Indra's net experiences are also just slightly to the right because they do have a fractal structure. And in that sense, they do have a little bit of information, but it's very little. So most Indra's net experiences, which again, they're real, they're a valid state of consciousness. You can experience some meditation or psychedelics around there, they just have a little bit of information. And so it's actually they're fine. They tend to be very pleasant and euphoric and insightful and beautiful, but they're not the perfect zero information state because that one doesn't even have fractal structure. Like that's the crazy thing. Like, I mean, that's like one of the beautiful thing about like many mathematical fractals that like you see all these apparent complexity, but actually the whole thing can be created with a tiny program for like a tiny equation. So it's like all these apparent complexities actually just very little information. And the same with that Indra's net, there's like these spheres endlessly repeating the reflections of the spheres within the spheres and so on. Yeah, that has very little information, but it still has some information. And I would say that for example, Indra's net type experiences are more common and like DMT than on 5MEO DMT because on 5MEO DMT you're actually just much more likely to go to the pure zero information state. That's the attractor, the natural attractor of it. And that one doesn't have a fractal structure. It's just pure void. So the soul differentiator between people having experiences of oneness that include the Indra's net slash Mandelbrot, Benoit Mandelbrot style fractals is that there is still some sort of a small fractal like structure or pattern or something that is versus when you go all the way over here, this is where there's no fractal like there's no repeating pattern. There's nothing to fixate on. There's just an absolute evenness. That is, yeah, that's okay. So now my follow up question to that is would an example of this corner here would it also be examples like these or is this, yeah? Yeah, yeah. The one on the left, bottom left, like, yeah, that picture. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a classic Indra's net experience. So what is like this but for your top left corner? It could be, I mean like it literally can be like your experience has like fragmented into components where each of those components have a perfect copy of the content of the entirety of the experience. So you will have these recursive fractal structure. It doesn't go infinitely down because there's like a finite resolution to consciousness or at least our type of consciousness but it can go pretty deep like maybe seven levels or something like that which is actually really stunning of your experience. It is like, oh, I didn't know fractals could be this detailed and it's gonna be much more detailed than the fractals that you see in a sober state for sure. But there's like many configurations. I mean, this is like visual, audio, tactile and their inter-relationships. There's many, there's not one interest net just as there's not one fractal, right? There's many possible Indra's net experiences and almost all of them they're very blissful and beautiful, not all of them because some of them may actually be, you know like fractal noise or fractal dissonance which is unstable and that's why they're not like attractors. Usually these experiences when they're like fractal they tend to be very loving and beautiful because that's the type of energy that actually makes it stable and is like stabilizing. So typically when somebody says they have like a Indra's net experience they're going to be describing a beautiful experience not always, but that's the typical. So what would a visualization if we were to explain that this is more like the natural state of suchness that Buddha's talking about? If we were to select other visuals for audience which, yeah, which other ones or what would we look up to? I would say the, like a combed torus. So maybe if you search like Harry Ball theorem and torus, combed torus maybe. Yeah, there you go. Like the one on the top left, I guess. Yeah, that would be kind of like the unconditioned. Like there's just no information there because like there's no structure to it. Like the lines are all perfectly combed. So if you take 5MEO DMT, you arrive at the unconditioned state. It's like, yeah, that's kind of the electromagnetic field with no features. It's just pure void and it's very peaceful. It's completely peaceful. There's no problem in there. So when you say that there's this EM field with no features because everything, pure void, everything is this in the Harry Ball theorem. It's because everything is just in its perfect alignment. In perfect aligned flux. Yeah. And that's the beauty that like you don't do these by doing surgery. You don't do this by individually going to every point and like putting the vector in that direction. What you do is you heat up the whole structure and then let it cool. So you basically do the annealing process. And it's exactly how you... Yeah, I remember exactly that. That's one of the beautiful things about... What does it mean for a conscious entity to heat themselves up? So that means to take their density from lower to higher in a heating up process. And then as there is a creation of potentially more coherence, is that right? Alignment with all of that. Then there's a following process of sort of cooling to take that, to lock in said more natural state. Exactly. On the lower density level, things are more flexible. So you can do a lot of search, what we call neural search over there and find solutions that then as you cool down, they stick with you and you'll be better aligned. And this is both at the level of beliefs and attitudes, but also at the micro level, that like even like certain kinds of like chronic pain or like energy blockages in your body that also can go away through this process. And I mean, to me, it's very beautiful that like... Again, like you don't do this by individually surgically trying to fix everything. You do this by instantiating a process that gives rise to a new kind of self-organization. So it's like the paradoxical thing that if you wanna get something more ordered, you first disordered more and then you cool it down. So because otherwise it's computationally intractable. So and in general, I think that's how we think of a future technologies at QRI is a lot less of like, oh, how do we like fix this particular part of the nervous system is more, how do we kickstart a holistic process that has self-healing properties? Yeah, cool. So how does when the consciousness is heating up in the annealing process, how does there a creation of a more entropic or disordered state, but yet there is still the alignment or the coherence? Like how is the hairy ball both perfect alignment but also entropic in a process? That might be the thing where you're simultaneously instantiating a unified field while keeping the information of the other fields as well. And I mean, again, like that that will happen at some energy levels. I think if you raise the energy far enough, it just can't happen. I think like it will just basically just collapse into the basically the pure consciousness type of realms. But if you can keep it, I mean, it's kind of like this whole idea of like, like you need to balance the forces. Like it's kind of like you need to find exactly the place where kind of the pure consciousness and the form can simultaneously coexist. And it's going to be a corner pace corner. Like you need to balance a lot of forces and keep the balance there or it's going to deviate to something else. Yeah, so. Is that a Goldilocks zone? Is very much like Goldilocks zone. Goldilocks zone, yeah, cool. That makes sense. The more that reality becomes formless, it simultaneously is formed. And it's sort of like you, this lower chakric formness is where the start is. And then there's this higher density formlessness. And then the form is empty, empty is form kicks in because the emptiness that is the formlessness kicks in as you sort of reach said higher. There's the differentiation ceases. And that the simultaneity is experienced. The simultaneity is experienced and the differentiation between emptiness and form or formlessness and form no longer is pronounced. What was pronounced is no longer as pronounced. So would you then say that this, the Harry Balth theorem is as close to expressing what is in this high energy, low information content corner? Yeah. I mean, well, that would be the comb to Taurus. What do we look up to show? I looked up comb to Taurus. They're both, so the donut there would be the comb to Taurus. And the Harry Balth would be the other one. Oh, no, the one you have selected already. Yeah. And then which other one for you talking about? And then the sphere that is right next to it on top. Oh, this one? Yeah, that one is the one where there's an ego because the structure is such that you cannot comb it. Whereas the Taurus, you can actually comb it. And so you can actually get no sticking point at all. Okay, wait a second. So in this one, which is the Taurus. Yes. In the Taurus, you can comb it. Yes. And in this one where there's a center, is that the idea is that there's a center, right? Yeah. Whereas in this one in the Taurus, there's no center, right? Yeah. Okay, so in the Taurus, there's no center meaning it's empty itself. Yeah. Meaning that it is the field. Yeah, we can say that, yeah, yeah. Okay, and then meaning that in this one, there's a real big solidity in the center. Yeah. And then why can't it can't be combed because of the solidity in the center? There's a proof and it's a little bit complicated but it has to do with Euler's number. But the... Simplify it as much as you can. Oh my goodness. Give us, just give us the essence of what, why can't the contractivity go itself with the center? Why can't that be combed? And what do we mean by combed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, combed meaning alignment, right? I mean, this is very interesting. Like if you pay attention to how your attention moves around from second to second. For most people, in most circumstances, it's going to be your attention is kind of like, there's several operations, like one is like scanning for salient objects. You fixate your attention briefly there. If there's nothing more salient, it kind of exhausts the saliency. And then that information, you take it into the self. Basically, there's kind of this back and forth between paying attention to the things around you and then like evaluating the relevance for yourself. And there's this back and forth. And that back and forth creates this viscosity for this kind of a center of mass that is not ideal. I mean, basically it is like a kind of like energy sink or blockage. And it's also resting on a little illusion, fundamentally, like this idea of an enduring metaphysical self is kind of part of what feeds or fuels that kind of dynamic. And instead, if you do a lot of meditation and you remove or at least like lesson or liquefy at the very least that sense of self, the attention patterns are going to, in a sense, not be coagulating or like always coming back to the center. And instead, the information is going to be available throughout the experience. It's just a different way of like organizing information. And in that sense, you can say that like, yeah, I mean, given the structure of most people's experiences because they have kind of the center of mass, things are more likely to be brittle or dissonant or ways of energy have like more blockages because there's that center of mass doesn't transmit energy very well. Whereas in kind of the fully, I guess, decentralized comm state, there's no center of mass and the energy information is more kind of in some sense, like holographically distributed throughout the entire experience. And there's nothing in that experience that you assign as like, oh, this is me fundamentally, everything is just an appearance of form. And when I say comb, I actually mean it quite literally in like how your attention is spreading in your experience that like a fully combed experience is one where, for example, attention moves in kind of a homogeneous wave and you're kind of scanning your experience without any blockage or anything, any resistance. And in that sense, that would be kind of the torus. It's kind of like there's waves of attention just moving through, but they're not causing pinch points. They're not self overlapping or self intersecting. Whereas... Okay, cool, keep going. Yeah, whereas with a sense of self, your attention kind of like goes one place and then bounces back, goes one place and bounces back and that quality causes a certain kind of dissonance. And as long as you're shaped like that, it doesn't matter if you rearrange the things in your life or the world, you're still going to be processing the world through that shape. And that shape has an inherent kind of dissonance associated to it. And in that sense, it's less than ideal. Okay, okay, so then I love how at the two hour mark, we are getting into like one of the coolest parts of the... Like, do you feel relevant with that? Like, do you feel like this is one of the coolest parts of the convo so far? Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. That's interesting. So, do you feel like we can have a window of a little bit more time to run through this of what's coming, arising right now to play and explore that? Yeah, I should go at seven, but yes, we can go a little bit longer. Okay, okay, cool. Thanks for that, Heads Up. Great. And thanks for the whole show together. It's been... Definitely. It's been so good. We finally reconvened our energies for play after a nice gap of exploring what was in our excitement space. And now there's so many new fresh takes with us both harmonizing on this. And I also, after having Dan Ingram on the EPRC, I heard that you guys are a part of that, which is so awesome. Yeah. And it's really great to see what's been unfolding for you guys and to just hear how much more precise you are. And it could be cool for us to... Maybe something like twice a year, like every six months, something like do a session with QRI just to further explore what is being synthesized in the science and spirituality space here. And also relate that to what's happening as we explore these higher explorations of consciousness and those densities. And so it'll be in this theories of everything. Actually, it could be kind of cool for QRI to be featured by Kurt Geimungal in the theories of everything podcast as well. So just to wrap a little bit here on this. So in essence, on the left... And what do you call, this is a Taurus, but what do you call this, a Puff? No, well, right, yeah, Sphere. It's maybe, yeah. It's the Puff, the condom bubble over the head. Yeah. So you guys call it a sphere, right? You guys just call it a sphere? Okay, cool. I just wrote Puff. I thought Puff was so funny because Puff makes it a little more able to be non, because it doesn't look exactly spherical, right? It looks like it's a little bit off sphere or is it exactly sphere? It doesn't matter. Actually, as long as the topology is of a sphere, you cannot come to this. Is the general topology sphere and versus the general topology is doughnut with the whole empty center. Okay, so again, so now we have this Taurus in the sphere. The Taurus is empty of self, these higher densities of consciousness, emptying of self. So this is, you were discussing this, there's no coagulation in this sphere. Yeah, that's so interesting. So there's not an experiencer, there's just experience, there's just arising, there's just happenings, not to an experiencer. There's no do work, it's just happenings, appearances. And then there's the attention when the attention in this doughnut, the attention is like massive waves of attention with no fixations, just massive waves of attention. And then in the sphere, the sphere one is a, the sense of self is there, the ego is there, all the conditioning, the coagulation is there. And then now the combing means it can't be combed because as soon as you start combing, there's a prickly hair of conditioning. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool, cool, that's dope. Wow, this is quite interesting. I'm really feeling like much of what I've been synthesizing and distilling in the spiritual mystic literature and direct experience is very aligned with what you're sharing here, with what is being explored here scientifically as well, which is very fascinating. Actually, this doughnut versus sphere, could you say that this sphere is the lower densities where you're more in like the yellow ray? And then, but not, yeah, but I see what you're, yeah, cause there's both in every single one. But, and then this shift more to the doughnut, the torus is more of the higher densities that are more empty of self. So it could almost look like a spectrum from this to this. Do you understand yet? Yeah, yeah. And it is, I think for sure that basically with the lower densities, I mean, you could scroll it like there's more in fighting or like more fighting with yourself because if you're like full of structures like that, essentially the fields will not be able to arrange themselves in a way that they don't self-intersect. And that is the thing that you want to avoid. I mean, we think like that's basically the source of suffering here that basically whenever the waves of energy inside you collide, that causes dissonance. So you have to reshape yourself in such a way that they actually just flow without colliding. And that is the high valence configurations. So cool, yeah. Low without colliding. Wow. Great, let's wrap. So this has been fascinating. So you would say that this sort of, this is one of the best visualizations, potentially the sphere to the torus of the densities of consciousness as they appear. Yeah, it would be one of maybe a couple that I would probably select. But yeah, I'll have to think of a clean way of explaining it. I might make a video about it. Yeah. That's dope. Okay, so yeah. And so by the way, for everyone that's tuning in, thank you, we love you. We're so fucking grateful, fam. Thank you. Thank you. Definitely. And you can find the link to Andres' YouTube channel in the bio of the video where he has a lot of other content on his channel that helps unpack what he's been talking about. And so subscribe to his channel, go and check it out, like his content there. If this video also brought you value, give it a like, help the algorithm, subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet. Also, share the video with other people that you feel like this would resonate with energy and consciousness, baby. The synthesis of spirituality, baby, QRI, that's right. And also leave us a comment below with your thoughts on the episode. We would love to also hear from you. And also you can support Quality Research Institute. They have a donate button. You can go and support them and join their efforts because they're independent, they're still not, yeah, still completely independent, not, yeah. So it's really important basically for us to collectively fund their efforts. And so get behind them. If you believe in what Andres has been sharing, if it's really resonant with you, go and support them so they can continue. They've been bringing on new people onto staff and taking on new projects, which is awesome. And there are all these like new fresh people that are graduating or that are just really fascinated about this field and that are getting involved in their efforts. So they're also scaling up, which is great. I will stop the screen sharing over here. And yeah, yeah, my brother, thank you again, Andres. Infinite love for you, brother. This is so beautiful. What a great meeting. What a great meeting of us after so long. Our energy is really so beautiful here. Thank you again so much and congrats on all the great, it's been awesome learning from you and everything that you guys have been achieving. So great job and thank you so much. And yeah, in one word here, I guess like it's that the reason why we're a nonprofit is basically we think that yeah, basically we actually need to keep the science away from commercial interests. That like, we want to actually have like a science of consciousness, a science of wellbeing. It has to be really pure. Like it cannot be like influence, but okay, what is the next product cycle going to say that we should say? Or what is it that we should say that will make people like us? Actually, what we want to say is just the truth. You know, actually, whatever will actually help as many people as possible. In that sense, yeah, we are committed to being a nonprofit, we will eventually have like spin-off companies as like this research actually becomes like available for like diagnostic tools or like therapies. But for the time being, it's a nonprofit and we basically do kind of like require funding to maintain the nonprofit effort to the point where we can ultimately, yeah, license technologies or therapies, diagnostic tools. But yeah, for the time being, any support is super, super appreciated. And also, yeah, thank you so much for giving me yeah, this space and wonderful questions and conversations. It's great talking to another open individualist. It's very funny. It's really fun. Thank you. So beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. And let's go ahead. I will end the stream, but you and I will stay in the studio for just a quick minute, okay? Once again. Perfect. Bye everyone, infinite love. Infinite, please. Love everybody.