 So, ladies and gentlemen, the stage is all set for the panel discussion and I'm sure this is going to be a grueling session and to begin with our panel discussion, may I call upon our panelists, may I call upon Mr. Vikram Sakuja, Group CEO, Medicine Media and OOH. May I also welcome on stage Mr. Shashi Sinha, CEO IPG Media Brands. I'd love to call upon Ms. Kavita Nair, Chief Digital Transformation Officer, Vodafone Idea Limited. I'd also like to welcome Ms. Anupriya Acharya, Chief Executive Officer, Publicist Media India and last but not the least, may I call upon Mr. Amin Lakhani, COO, South Asia Mindshare. Esteemed panelists here on the stage, it's time to call upon without whom this panel would not be complete. So, may I please call upon Mr. Nawal Ahuja, Co-Founder and Director, Exchange for Media Group to be the session chair for today's panel discussion. Thank you so much sir and I hope I call the panel open. Thank you for staying back for this panel. Well, you know, what I thought was before we discuss what's happening with the agency's ecosystem and what the future of agencies is as the topic says, unlocking potential. By the way, Nazia was supposed to moderate this panel and she told me to do it two days back. So I thought what we'll do is we'll contextualize what's happening in the larger ecosystem, brands, agencies and media and then figure out, then talk about, you know, what's the future looking like, what agencies need to do. So quick ones, you know, we know what's happening this year. There's been so much disruption. There's, you know, economic challenges. There is, you know, impact of a regulation driven things like NTO. There is obviously the digital, you know, story that continues to, you know, drive the agenda over the last few years. Video, OTT, digital online, video consumption pulling through. So that's putting a lot of pressure on lots of parts of the advertising and the media ecosystem. I remember on 12th of February this year, we unveiled the Pitch Medicine Report and Mr. Balsara went on stage and said, happy days are here again. We are sitting in September now, 24th to be precise. In six months, the mood has drastically changed, right? Last month, we also, you know, revised the numbers downwards. NTO, of course, was one big factor. It created a lot of disruptions. What I want to know from the panelists, I'll start with Vikram, which I'm sure a lot of people sitting in this room want to know, are things going to get worse or you think things will get better? Okay. First, let me just put in perspective the downgrading. I don't want to only spell doom and gloom out here. Interestingly, when we downgraded the entire growth for the year in the Pitch Medicine Report, the only one that we really dropped was TV by about six, seven points. And the reason was because nobody saw the NTO and, well, we saw the NTO happening, but we didn't see the implications of that. And that really led to a whole lot of advertisers actually developing cold feet, understandably so, and therefore reducing the spends on TV. The rest of the mediums actually moved quite as per plan. Second quarter also grew on the back of increased IPL, on the back of a new World Cup, and on the back of elections. That also grew reasonably well. It's the third quarter with all the doom and gloom, which is threatening to look a little soft. We had only put 7% growth on the third quarter. It probably won't reach there. Fourth quarter, now with FM's latest announcements, I have a, I'm pretty sanguine. I'm an eternal optimist. I actually think the last quarter is going to bounce back a little bit. So it will not be as bad. I think we're going to have a growth this year versus last year, for sure not. I know we're going to have a growth and how much the growth is remains to be seen. Will it be 13 or will it be 10, 11 or 9? That remains to be seen, but it will be a growth. So there's a possibility of the number being... Yes, the calendar re-revised again. Shashi, what's your take? The last report said 13% for the year, down from 16. No idea on the numbers, because I'm not, as you know, a numbers person like my friend here, you know. So I was, one day I must tell you a small story before this. My friend was in Bangalore, put out a report, they called the Magna report. So I was very interested by what they put out. Then I said, one day I wanted a deep dive. So how do you do it? So they said, if you pick up group M, Madison, publicity, dance, you want to do an average of that. So that's how it is. So I have no clue on what the numbers are, but I think the larger point. So if you ask me, I'm not a... My larger point is it was looking tough this quarter and I think the latter part of the year November December will be tough. But what's happened on Friday, the sentiment has probably changed. And as you know, the economy is a bit of a trouble for two reasons. One, there's some structural issues, especially in finance. And we work with a lot of auto clients and as a result, we are seeing the heat. So there is some structural issues, which are not going to go away. It's going to be slightly long term. But there is a sentiment also and the sentiment will turn around with what's happened on Friday. So net net, I don't know whether it will be better than last year or not, but what we were predicting in the next two months probably will be better than that. Kavita, will your ilk spend more after the government's announcement? So I think telecom industries of course has a different problem than what the media industry is. But for me, I think it's not about spending more, but how do you really spend that money and where are the consumers? So my view will be sometimes a little bit contrarian to the rest of the panel as to what is spending more means and where do you spend more? So tell me, since you seek ROI of course on what you spend, where do you think agencies can do better, especially in today's environment? Do you think there is something lacking in terms of skill, expertise, data analytics? What more can they do to give you better ROI? I just, is that the world is evolving? The world is evolving. So I don't see it from the lens of lacking. Remember I have digital transformation as a hat including brands. So the way customers react and the consumers are reacting with how media was consumed, how advertising was consumed five years ago to today is very, very different. And in that, how are we able to evolve business models and operating models is the key question for all of us to really reach to that segment of one. And to reach to that segment of one, you need a lot of enablers. And in that, I think there are the big two enablers are people and technology with data being at the core of it. And all of us have to work harder to reach to that segment of one. You're being diplomatic. So tell us granularity. What specifically can an agency do? Your agency or other agencies working for many other brands? What exactly can they do to bring more knowledge, more insights to the table? So I think the first is challenge existing models, their own challenge status quo. I think we are all seeped in the world that we saw and the world that we grew up in. So we see the world as ATL, BTL, TV, print, outdoor. I don't think the consumer processes it that way anymore. I don't know how many people look at outdoor when they are moving. Are they on their smartphones or are they looking there? What is compelling content? Is monologue working? Is it dialogue? What is working for the customer? So all of these are questions and these questions are there because there are 460 million people who are on their phones and the way they are consuming their from whether it's phones or screens. And how do we really change that? And I think for me, the agency ecosystem, whether it is creative agency, media agency, digital agency, all of them have to really question that to get to problem solving. Rather than worry about my business, my PNL or how it will be solved. Because if you solve for this, you will get more money. Let me assure So Anupriya, you think we have made some headway into getting there? Are we able to make a crack at this? I know there are a lot of things agencies have tried in the last few years from acquiring digital agencies to acquiring data analytics companies to changing the way we are thinking, executing. But are we able to get somewhere close to where the client's expectations are? I think surely so. Like Kavita said that this is an evolving place. So there is no such thing as this is the transformation which has happened in the market and have we reached there and addressed that or not. It's continuously evolving and there are newer challenges coming, newer opportunities coming in the market. And the whole thing for all service providers, including agencies, essentially is to ensure that they evolve at that pace or faster than the market. And towards that we've seen all the, I mean we can talk of our group, but all the key agency groups we've seen enough and more conversation around investment, around data, technology, data science, analytics, commerce, and areas which had never been in the past been say core competencies for agencies. And the conversations that we have today in terms of data and technology and all of that are very very different from what were happening, forget 10 years back, but were happening even three years back. The kind of solutions that are being provided to the client. Now one can argue that they are absolutely solving for everything or possibly are lagging in some areas and definitely advance in other areas. One can argue that, but has there been a shift in the needle at an overall level across agency groups? I think most certainly so. Tell me are large agency groups well equipped to compete with startups, young, upstart, kids who have a data analytics company. I know a lot of the agencies have acquired these young startups, but it's just so diffused. You acquire three and another three come up tomorrow. Are large groups, how do large groups, let me rephrase it, how do large groups equip themselves to compete with this young 25 year old startups like Kavita said, we are living our own sort of youth or our younger self when we were consuming media. What do the large agencies do? How do you compete in an ecosystem where you know competitions coming from all over the place? So I can give example from my own experience of course. So acquisition definitely is one area and I've seen increasing the acquire groups across group. There has been a lot of acquisitions. I can give you an example of performance marketing. For example, this was something which is up and coming five, seven, eight years back and we acquired two companies in that space and just like you said, they were just startups and just shops of 50, 80 people. Today combined they are more than 700 people and that is essentially the one is the market dynamics because suddenly that whole area became extremely hot and extremely important for the clients. So here you have a specialist expertise which is totally focused on that one aspect and as a network you provide everything else around that so they don't have to waste the time on possibly hunting, on possibly connections with clients, on possibly figuring out how does that really solve for a larger client problem and providing them the infrastructure and any sort of funding that is very, very important to grow these services at scale and the same thing can be spoken about commerce today, the same thing can be talked about data and tech. So that is one way which is acquisition route and I have seen it work very, very well across quite a few agency groups. The second of course is you can always also hone that skill so far. Some of the solutions, for example, we have searched in the market and have not found there and we've developed in-house solutions for that and which have worked very well not for us only in India but we've also exported to outside, outside to our network as well. So both manners, it can work in both the manners and I think nobody is speaking. You run an Indian company so I wanted to come to you. No, to your question on these wonder kids at 25 versus old war horses, I think old war horses also have a role to play. What the younger, the wonder kids bring is fantastic technical capability, great curiosity, they're a devil may care kind of attitude which is fantastic, very bold guys and they're very good in terms of being able to manage the digital ecosystem, navigate the way through it and come out with answers. What they sorely lack is strategic maturity and any knowledge of the brand and anything, any knowledge outside of a digital domain. So actually the Jughal Bandi works very well. So just surround yourself with these young guys, you have enough to offer them and they have of course a lot to bring to the party. So it's not us or them. I mean you, Rekhma says you run one of the largest agencies in India, largest one actually. So the largest one that's what I corrected myself. So tell me, of course when you are that big in size, volume and the muscle you command in the market does play a very big role in how you perform. But what about the other elements, delivering better ROI, data analytics, working, are you as open to working with smaller upstarts? What does mindshare do? What does group M do to sort of make sure that the clients stay engaged? I think we've been in the country for now over 20, 25 years, close to 25 years in many ways. And some of the relationships of the clients that we have are spanning over 10 years, 12 years, 15 years. So I think you cannot sustain a relationship with clients on an ongoing basis unless and until you keep reinventing yourself at every juncture. And if you look at the trajectory of our industry over the last 15, 18 years, I think today the world that I am seeing is very different from the way I used to see it 18 months ago. So that's the kind of multiplier that we are talking about. And that's the kind of chaos that we're dealing with. I think the answer is, are we being very, very complicit in our past and our past glory? Like Kavita mentioned, do we have the mindset of challenging status quo? And I think, is there a mindset of inviting or learning and unlearning that we are building on an ongoing basis? It's very important to have a start-up mindset, even in a large organization wherein you have 800,000 people who work with you. It doesn't come easily, but I think that's the need of the art. If you don't know that, then perhaps you'll collapse and you'll deserve it. So what pushes agencies out of their comfort zones? Because we all know, you know, that's true for all businesses. If business is good, you're riding the tide, you know, you continue to do the same thing. What is it that pushes agencies, is it a threat of, you know, younger upstarts, taking your business away? Is it, you know, clients calling for pitches for price discovery? I think it's hunger to do better than what you did yesterday, if you ask me. And if there's no hunger, whether clients call you for pitches or don't call you, I think pitches is not a new norm. Pitches has been there in an industry for, as long as I was born in the industry. So the first day when I came, I thought there was a pitch and then yesterday we attended a pitch and all of that. So I think that doesn't change, right? We can crib in the side room and we can all crib and laugh over it. But I think that's a norm and that will continue to happen. As agencies, are we geared up to improving on efficiencies and, you know, improving effectiveness? The answer is right. So I don't think there are any complaints over there. We know that this is the size and this is the method and this is the characteristic. But where does it stop? In the 20 years? In lots of, I mean, I have been hearing last two, three years, maybe three, four years, a lot of the pitches have been about, you know, more price efficiency. But what makes you... In fact, last year... My only question is that what makes you think that if there are no pitches, there are no efficiency conversations, you know? So I don't think there's a client and I'm saying clients are asking not only to their agency partners, but also within themselves, that is there an efficient way of doing things, you know? If I am doing things in, say, 100 rupees, can I do it in less than 100? Can I do 200 and stuff like that? I think they're asking the questions themselves and within their own processes and their own functionalities. So I don't think that's a question only for agency partners. And I think as agency partners, we are asking the same questions for our clients and we're asking the same questions internally to ourselves that can we do this better? If there are 10 people required, can we do it in nine people? If we charge 100 rupees, can we do it in 95? Or, you know, what? And so on and so forth. Let me ask you... Let me ask, actually, Shashi a question on, you know, since we are talking about pricing efficiency. Last three, four years, as I mentioned, a lot of the pitches have been about pricing efficiency, media pricing. I don't know whether, you know, we've reached bottom yet because last year, the triple A's of I had to, and INS and IBM got involved, everybody had to issue a so-called, you know, dictat. And it's still kind of a lot of pitches continue in the same vein. And this coming in an environment when business already is tough because of, you know, multiple issues that have happened, demonetization and then GST and then, you know, economic challenges this year, NTU and so on and so forth. What do you think, you know, where does it stop? Is there a solution or the market will find its own bottom? Two answers. One answer is the ecosystem is reacting without getting into details of what is happening. As you've seen, the various associations are saying this is untenable. So I think efficiency, as I mean said, is desirable. The better you get over a period of time, the more it is. But this whole pitching thing, which you alluded to, has got a lot of side effects, which may not be real. And you've seen the ecosystem reacting. It's just eight, nine months, 10 months as this happened. And I think it's a good sign. It will only improve. I mean, for an industry which is working in a particular way over the last 10, 12 years, maybe more to make so much progress in the last eight, nine months, I think David, this will go away. The larger point I want to, and sorry, I want to react to something which Vikram said and which, you know, this whole thing of brand custodian and stewardship versus low funnel action in terms of, you know, performance, which is alluded to. I want to narrate a story and two stories, in fact. Many years back, Mr. Valsara, who's here in the audience, was being felicitated for his lifetime achievement and said something which he has stayed with me for so many years. He said, I got into the business, and if I remember rightly, this is what he said, that I got into this business because there's a power of communication. Communication is something to achieve and deliver and bring consumers and add value to brands as a result of which we are there. We are seen as adding value, whatever you call them, consultants, whatever value you call them. Cut to. Yes, I'm giving in snapshot what he said. So have I got it right, broadly? So I cut to last evening. So there's a large FMC advertiser, he and me were driving together, and he was saying, you have so much auto and what has gone wrong? So I said, what's your prognosis? He said, two things have happened, and I will not quote him loose because he was very lucid in what he said. He said, one, that all the advertising is on launches, they've forgotten this thought of doing theme communication, building brands, all they're doing is doing the launch, then they get out, it's all pricing, and then it's all low-funnel action on digital, and he was taking the big boy's name, saying these guys are to blame, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. So if you connect what Mr. Balsara said about, and what Vikram said today, about brand stewardship and communication, and then tying it up with local financial action, I think that's the crux. So a phase will come when advertisers and the ecosystem will realize, this is not enough, we have to move towards delivery. And finally, we'll build men back up in the sun, whether that happens in six months, one year, I don't know, it's already happening with certain clients. So are agencies somewhere lacking in being able to convince clients that in even times like these, more advertising is the way, or at least that much advertising is the way and not lesser? I'm not sure. So if I may take the liberty from outside to give Kavita's example, I think some of the best stewardship in terms of brand, which you see in the communication, comes from the company which is part of, I'm also sure what I've heard of low-funnel action in terms of performance comes from there. So they've got the ecosystem right, and I'm sure there are many such clients there. I don't want to get into price discovery and efficiency, that's a separate discussion that every client demands is due, but beyond a point, that's not, they're not looking for the bottom of the barrel. And I know many such clients, and I'm sure all of us have there. So I think mature clients realize this, that what Mr. Balsara said, many moons back, that finally we're in the business of delivering value. And value is not necessarily low-funnel action. Value starts from the top. Am I right, sir? Vikram, what's your take? How do we convince clients to spend more in this environment? Okay, short answer to that is with ideas and analytics. If you give them great ideas, they'll buy them. If you give them reasons to spend, they'll spend. Very simply put that way. Bottom line, effectiveness at one day has to become more important than efficiency. Efficiency story is easier to tell. Effectiveness story is a little bit more difficult to understand. There have been times when you actually told a client with these analytics, you spend and you'll get your, I remember the numbers also, we said you will get your awareness point, awareness from 34 to 45. And we took it to 46. Same plan. My God, that's got to be something. I mean, there was proper science modeling, it actually happened. So now, is that valued? No, you take it for granted or analytics did it. But somewhere along the line, over time, we may be, I think we have to, we have to probably sell our effectiveness stories better. I think we are doing a lot of them. Maybe we are underselling them. All good, but the procurement guy says, you know, I have 30% lesser money this year. How do you bound to that? We can't wish them away much as we'd like to. So the contra conversation has to be much louder and much more resonant than the procurement guys. So for every time, for example, procurement guy comes and says, don't take producer XYZ to make this film because he's so expensive and go for one, some fall to guy who's actually charging very little. The marketing guy definitely puts his cloud and say, sorry, I want the best because this film depends on it. Why are they being able to trump the procurement guy there? Somewhere, the conversation is that those guys are worth their money. So probably they're not feeling the same thing way with us. And that's a conversation we have to improve. Amin, what's your take? I just wanted to add to that. I think the whole conversation is not as linear as it used to be earlier that how do we get the clients to spend more? The conversation has sometimes back shifted to how do we get the clients to be successful because all the companies we can see are under tremendous margin pressure. They themselves are reinventing their ways of working to ensure that they are relevant in this day and age. And I think across the board, it has changed from how do we get them to spend more to how can we get them successful, which means how can we possibly help them to sell more. And the two not necessarily are directly correlated. There are solutions outside of only spending more also, which can help clients and definitely those are also added beyond just increasing the budget. So, I mean, data analytics and everything, of course, makes it work harder. And the whole conversation around procurement and negotiation makes it work harder. But the conversations are no longer limited only to how we can get them to spend more. I think it's extremely important to be playing ball with the client in terms of how can we make them successful? Yes. Amin, you wanted to say something. I think Anupri has rightly articulated and before that Vikram as well. I think we are here to drive business for our clients. I think as long as we stick to that narrative, whether it is driving it through upper funnel or activating the lower funnel, or by better consumer understanding, or by decoding the data and the consumer footprint much better. I think whatever we do, whichever part of the consumer journey we activate, if you are being able to make a case that this will drive your business better than yesterday, I think there is a case and I'm 110% sure the client will walk with you. So, I think it's more of that than just thinking that, you know, how do I make him spend more or, you know, spend more on TV versus, you know, digital. I think those are how-to's and we can deal with them later on. But I think the core focus is that how does all your actions try and drive business? That brings me to another point since you mentioned TV. You know, we've seen what's happened last few years, especially one, the growth of digital and second, this year, the disruption caused by NTO. What we've all noticed is that the stronger, larger networks have become stronger. Most of the growth has gone to the larger ones and the mid-size and the smaller ones have got squeezed out. How does that impact the agency business? Is the larger, stronger players getting even more stronger? Is that good or bad for the advertising business? Does that reduce your, you know, ability to be able to, you know, deal with them on things like pricing, efficiency and stuff? And how do you kind of deal with that next two, three years? Because consolidation, like it has partly happened on the agency side of the ecosystem, it is also happening on the television media side. I think the macro environment, and if I were to just use this analogy and see it outside of television, then you see that happening in digital as well. And you see it in many of the sectors as well, that, you know, and the same kind of trend that we are seeing. However, my principle or our principle is very, very clear that we will invest in places which deliver eyeballs. So if there are eyeballs, money will flow automatically. If there are no eyeballs, then the money dries up. So I think if there is a case for a platform or a partner, whether it's a TV channel, whether it's a digital platform, whether it's radio, whether it's anybody, if there are eyeballs, money will flow in. If there are nothing, if there is none, then you don't just kind of start feeding into it. I think all other conversations then are subsequent and, you know, you could do that. Can you move away? Yeah, we can. 10 to agree with the mean and disagree with you. I don't think the strong networks on TV, especially TV, unlike a Google Facebook on digital, in TV, the dominant networks don't necessarily mean make the other guys redundant or useless. I think wherever there are, in fact, in today's environment, you need more channels to get reach because, I mean, even your best GEC channel in a week is not getting more than 35-36% reach. Gone are the days when the top channel would get 75-80% reach. So you need more channels to typically build your reach, even small guys. The guys who have to worry about are, in today's environment, are the people who are bought not on ratings, but on effective rate. Those guys are getting being put under the most scrutiny because you don't even know whether the damn channel is being put into the package or not there. So those are the guys who have to worry about, but if you're delivering ratings, you're okay. Unfortunate part is, and I say it is unfortunate part for many reasons, which country in the world where you have one, two, three, four networks buying 85% on television? So that answers your question. So there is consolidation. That's what I've mentioned. There's consolidation on one side. It's gradually happening on the other side. Kavita, have you been part of Vodafone for a long time? So as the media, especially the television, because you've been a heavy user of television, first, IPL was sponsored by Vodafone. Have you seen the kind of aggregation of good quality content on TV, on one side impacting what's happening at your end, in terms of how you are approaching plans and buying media? Yes, I think, so I must confess that I came back to marketing about after 10 years of doing various other things in the same company. And for me, I was surprised by two things. One is there are things that have remained the same, and there are things that have changed. And the things that have remained the same is what I think Shashi alluded to, to saying that how do we reach out to the consumer? It doesn't start with what are the mediums that we reach or that we need to do, to do advertising as much as how do we really get the share of mind and share of heart, which is what we will be said. So how do we really have great storytelling? And that storytelling can be in different forms. It used to be three minutes to now 30 seconds. So I think that has remained the same. The things that have changed are how do we really approach some of this, which includes media? So this year, IPL, we were not on television and we were only on digital. So we experiment and we do these things and it's got nothing to do with whether television is working or not. But what is really helping us from what is it that we would want to do with our consumers and in this case it was a whole load of activation rather than just doing awareness stuff. So if that really works and then when I've come back to marketing and I mean unfortunately, unfortunately has been part of these discussions as to how do these mediums really stack up and how do we really use them wisely for the overall brand agenda that you need to really follow and that brand agenda is to reach the share of heart of the consumer, which is changing. So they don't really want this monologue. They don't want us to really topo advertising it. How is it, why are they buying subscription-led stuff because they can see content without advertisers coming in. That is a challenge, but I see that as an opportunity saying that it really makes you think more on how do you really become better storytellers because anybody and everybody loves a good story. What about digital, television of course. Digital already has significant consolidation at one end. If you look at Google, Facebook, they pretty much have 85% 80-85% of the market globally and also in India. I was told without taking names one of the large networks, agency networks grew on the back of digital advertising last few years and two of their key markets in the Asia pack region billing has collapsed because these companies are now directly going to clients. So Martin Sorrell famously called them frenemies few years back. One, is that a threat to the agency ecosystem? One, a lot of client money shifting there and then being sort of bypassed. Two, how do you deal with that? So I think, so my view on digital, that insourcing is going to happen and we are in the middle of that. And when that happens, how do you really look at your agency partner? Do they really do strategic consulting work with you to help you drive that better or do you really go back to what was the efficiency world that we were talking about? If you get into the efficiency world and if you then say that my top line, my this thing, you will just go down. But if you really say that this is a reality, this is going to happen and how do I really change the value equation? Because I know my partner really well and I think both of them really set valid points that how do I really make my client successful and in that if this is the way they're moving, how do I really partner to shift the conversation from whether it should be insourced or not insourced or you know, so that is how I look at it. And for Vodafone, it has really helped us and both it is not just that means insourcing has helped as well as our equation with our agency partners has really moved further not just ahead because Shashi said right, otherwise everything goes down to the bottom of the funnel, top of the funnel, so how do you really forget all of this and say that what is the overall agenda and how do you really, the cohort of partners that you have, how do you really drive that? Does it threaten you Amin, how Google faces are rising? It's been kind of the story of the last few years but it's kind of reaching an inflection point now. I think many things threaten us on a daily basis. So yeah, and Google Facebook are great friends but I think if you step back and if you start looking at it, you know, the critical point is that world over and the markets, especially now in India, if you look at last two, three years after GEO, post GEO and all of that, I think there is enough publishing networks, you know, platforms which are emerging and they're achieving critical mass of audiences on themselves and slowly that trajectory is only going to move and take shape for that. So it's a matter of another year or year or two that, you know, the shift in the balance and the shift in the equation will happen very soon. We are already seeing the early signs. I think most of the big agency partners are working towards making sure that, you know, that ecosystem also thrives going forward. I think our biggest enabler that is missing in the industry today and this is more of a question to the industry and as a job to be done right now is how do we land effective measurement in this ecosystem and once measurement starts getting landed, you know, we will then have the same principles that we really want to be and we want to be agnostic with the platform. How do you get measurement when there are only two guys who bring their own data? I mean, I was actually talking to somebody like Star TV going to a planner every week saying, this is my ratings. So that's how it's been. I mean, how do you change it? I mean, it's an entirely different conversation. But how do you change it? Is there anything that can be done? I'll tell you what's going to, let's, you were talking about what is it going to take to get the next big growth thing, right? The one area which is growing today is digital. If they don't fix it, the equivalent of the cola, pesticides, care, or the chocolate worm, it'll require one of these to totally blow up in your face and take out all trust, credibility in digital and the 18,000 crore pie can come crashing like a house of cards. And I'm not being sensationalistic. The entire viewability and fraud piece has to be addressed in brand safety. I haven't even gotten to because brand safety is something which at least in this market is not, I mean, we don't feel it at an individual level. But the other two is becoming a joke. And just for anybody to come back and say that because I can bully you and I'll only give you my data and therefore you have to go by that, I think it's a horrible travesty. It just requires advertisers to come up and some of them have taken up bold stance. More of them should and say, if you don't give us a standardized viewability and anti-fraud mechanism, we are out. And tools exist. Only thing is everybody is using their own set of tools. None of the ones, what does it take for the, there are five agencies, right? What does it take for you to get together and say this is what we want? Do it or, you know, the client ecosystem is much more fragmented. At this point in time, the conversation has been, you tried to attempt it through industry bodies and it's failed. And we've been very patient about it. And I'll hand it over to somebody who's been at the thick of it. He'll be able to tell you much more. So unfortunately, I understand about the ecosystem of measurement in this country. And I think it's a larger point being made with Vikram just made that finally publishers have to realize that's for their growth, long-term growth. Short-term, there may be a bit of a pain. So if some numbers come down, some numbers go up, that's a minor thing. And solution is the industry body. So just now while digital measurement has been slow, TVs, we have a robust mechanism going, print, we have a robust mechanism going with my friend on the left. But I think somewhere digital, because they're such strong dominant players, there is a bit of a resistance. And I think I mean, touched on of there. So if all the advertiser fraternity gets together and says, listen, we need third-party industry bodies, I believe, finally, industry measurement is the right way to go. This is a crying need. And if this happens, and they have to realize in their head that this has got to do not with one ODD platform versus Google or whatever. It's got to do, and I'm saying a lot in what I'm not saying, that it's got to do for the larger cause because finally it'll catch up with you. So till that happens, what happened to television? Finally, eight people sat around the table and said, this has to be done. The government got into it. Finally, it'll happen. So like he said, some of the context is eternal optimist. I'm an optimist on measurement. There's pain just now, but it'll happen. And till that doesn't happen, there's going to be chaos. And this industry will only mature then. And otherwise, if it doesn't happen, then you have the risk of to use the strong words that things can explode. Just to add to that, also when you're talking about these two large platforms really going direct and all of that, this has been a whole evolution. There was a time that they thought that it was direct, was good because they were platforms and they were self-enabled. You can land advertising yourself. They were not designed for agencies. And of course, over a period of time, as they grew fast and grew big, they realized that there was a role, that very critical role that the agencies played. And almost like 10 years back is when this whole movement started, when they started engaging with agencies and they realized how much value agencies brought onto the table. So when we talk about some of these cases here and there, that these cases like these have existed in the broadcasting system, in all these systems in the past as well. But those are more like here and there, and it doesn't sort of define how the industry is moving. And more importantly, it's not only two world gardens that are the present. There are other world gardens also, which have come up in the meantime. So you have a whole commerce segment. You have the whole OTT segment. Everything is becoming a world garden. It is very tough for a client to keep dealing with multiple world gardens without a neutral advisor in the center. And hence, to my mind, the role of the agencies will always continue as long as they are clear. What is the value that they're bringing onto the table? Okay. Any last thoughts, Amin? I see the clock clock is running out, so we'll do some audience questions after this. Just that, Ache din ane wale. We are living in the middle of that. Yeah, but I'm very hopeful and inspired by the seniors in the industry that, yeah, we are on to, you know, I mean, if you look at the advertising spends in the country itself, despite the lower growth, we're still beating world averages and that's not going away. So this is still one of the highest or the fastest growing markets in the world and let's not forget about it. So there is traction. Yeah, there are pockets of challenges, but there are also offshoots and green shoots which are coming out. And hopefully with the clients being with us and all the agency partners together, we will find the right answer to measurement ways soon. Two more things. You know, before we wrap up and then move to the audience questions, there's a global trend which has been, you know, catching on last few years, all the big four consultancies getting significantly into, you know, at least the digital part of the business. You know, curating content, doing data analytics and significant overlap with what the agencies are doing today. It's not really, you know, that bigger deal in India yet, but there's no reason why an IBM or an Accenture, you know, come to India and do what they're doing globally and they're pretty aggressive. You know, I was reading an ad week report. The top 10 agency networks, four of them were, you know, Global Consultancy, Deloitte, PwC, Accenture and IBM. And a lot of that growth has come through acquisitions, money for which agencies also are competing. So if you look at, you know, a scenario three years out, which involves, you know, three, four of these trends. One, these global, you know, players becoming more aggressive in India. Second part is, you know, the growth of digital, especially Google Facebook as we've discussed. We don't know whether measurement will be solved by then. We don't know whether, you know, the, you know, other issues will be addressed by then. So if you look at a, I'm not looking into long term, nobody knows what's going to happen then, but say a three, four year horizon, where will agencies stand given all of these, you know, because you're getting squeezed from multiple sides? So actually, I think that's a great question because you were talking about Google and Facebook and my, my view was that it's not, and Shashi means, I don't know whether it's an industry, ROI world or because the, the, the business models are changing. Bioconsulting companies are moving to this because they know that the, their core role of just being a consultant is no more valuable in this digital native era because people have some of that knowledge that and what to drive, right? So, and then e-commerce or OTT, so the, the way the business models are of agencies have to change. They have to change because if you do not really evolve your business model in this new digital era, you will have to face with competition, not only of these insourcing or digital platforms, newer companies which will come in and they may be able to do it better because data analytics technology comes fairly naturally to them and why are they doing forward or backward integration? How creative, because that's not what something that comes easily to them. So the agency business model has to evolve. It's something to think of whether when we broke the creative media world and we broke into agencies, is this now time back to, you know, do some consolidation there to really solve for what our customer problems and consumer problems? So that is that stuff that we should really think about. Quite a simple. I'd be delighted if they come in because if clients get used to paying them what they pay them and find that we are delivering something equivalent or close by, we'd be happy. We can get the same talent, we can hire the talent. Conversely, what we get paid if they can work on those prices, I'd be delighted. They'll screw up the entire global business model there. And I'll just add my two bits on consultants. I think they bring in superior strategic consulting. They really have a very refined thinking. That's great. I think they are building in fantastic strengths and the data and tech, which even we as agencies, that's a business model change, which is an imperative. So we're also embracing that. But the part which we have light years of experience more than them is operational expertise. Every time some of these consultants, so to speak, come in as a media auditor to a pitch, man, we have them going around in hoops when they have to find out a simple implementation plan, they're not being able to see through it what even a five-year-old in our agency would be able to see. So they are woefully, woefully inadequate in actually understanding the rigors of TV, even print, even radio kind of planning. So is it easier for us to acquire data and tech skills and arguably consultancy versus them trying to get into the integrities of operational planning? I'll give ourselves more chances. Right. I mean, you want to get in? No, I think there's a lot to learn from new players coming out of the market and competition is a welcome and I think there is enough in the market and more are pretty much welcome in that space. And hopefully we will learn a thing or two from them. My concern is not there. My concern is that if you decide what you want to do, do you want to be a police or do you want to be the guy who is driving the revenue? So you don't come and check things as far as the other people's processes and ways of working and all of those things are there. And then go to the client and say, you know what, after checking him, I can tell you that I can do this better for you. So you decide you want to be in the business of what we are doing, please welcome. We will have one more chair, maybe two more chairs over here and we will have that conversation and we will compete very nicely with you. But decide on which role you want to do. Fantastic, but that's the direction the world is moving in. I'm sure what you're saying will come through maybe next year or the year after, we'll have to consultancy rep sitting here. Any questions from the audience before we wrap up? Okay, fantastic. That gives me a chance for one final one. Before we end, there are five, six points I'd sent you. So I want to ask you if you look at the next 12 months, what are the things that as agency, brand heads that concern you, especially this for agencies, there are seven points here. First and foremost is clients moving some services in house, competition for talent, budget cuts by clients, creating capability for managing data and analytics, keeping up with the automation, marketing tech adoption by clients, or lower media pricing by competition, but by your own ilk. What are these things, if you were to tell me top two or three things that you would bother about over the next 12 months? I want to add one more line, all of the above. For me, it's one. Well, you have to choose. I mean, you have to prioritize talent. Of course, I mean, of course, all of these are, you know, important. Talent is critical because our business models are not allowing us to hire quality talent or quality talent not being attracted to our industry for a variety of reasons. You know, so I think if that to me that if you fix that, everything else we just said will get fixed. Will that also fix lower pricing by competition? So I'm saying if you fix the larger part of it, you know, that what money is one, the five of the reasons which talent is to come, and when Anupya got in or Vikram got in the role model, what attracted him to advertising at that point in time, may not be necessarily the reason. So money is one part, the five of the factors, you know, the joy of doing great work, rather than the operational excellence he spoke about, or the working hours, work-life balance, there are many other factors. So you will get that right. If you correct quality talent, rest is taken care of. Vikram, I think you phrase the question in terms of which are the negative kind of forces which are bothering you. It's because all of them have to be addressed. Yeah, but I'd say obsession with pricing bothers me because it's just there's so much energy that goes into that. And you know, here's a tip. In fact, you know, for all those guys who are obsessed with pricing, there are always three things. There is a pitch pricing is what you actually execute and what you finally report. And that's a whole story and that's a finally a book can be written on that. So it's kind of silly. That's what people are chasing and what they're finally getting. And that's a separate thing altogether. But I think talent and pricing are the two things which concern me. The rest of them are all positive challenges. And pricing is both, of course, competition pricing as well as media pricing. It is kind of interlinked. Yes, I mean, go ahead. Yes, that's okay. We'll finish it. I think Sashi really summed it up very, very well. I think if I have to choose one between that, I think getting the right talent and having the right kind of people will solve for many of the other problems. In my view, it will also solve the pricing problem for me. Last word, Anupya. So for me, it is a world of constant evolution. And unlearn and relearn for us is extremely important, not only in our industry, in all the industries. It's very important to whatever has worked in the past, for sure, you can't be successful on the back of that in the future. So unlearning and relearning is really the key. Out of the five things I mentioned, which ones are your top? Competition for talent, because India is a fast-going market. If you don't have the ability to attract the right talent at scale and at speed and train them and hone them, then everything else that you can do is not going to really reap any benefits because there is no talent who is going to deliver on that, right? So competition for talent, I think, is the most. And plus, you're not only competing within the networks, you're also competing with everybody outside in the industry. That's right. Fantastic. So I think one of the key takeaways is the industry really needs to work on being able to attract better talent, the kind of talent that entered the industry 20 years back. With that, wrapping up the panel, thank you for listening patiently. A big round of applause to all the panelists. Thank you for making it.