 So, let me then introduce our panel. We have a very distinguished panel. To my left, we have Dr. Tin Leung Thuong, Executive Director of RECOFTTC, the Center for People and Forests. Dr. Tin is the Executive of RECOFTTC. He has over 25 years of professional experience in forest management, forest research and community forestry. He was formerly with an advisor with the Nature Conservancy, has led the Responsible Asia Forestry and Trade Program and also worked with IUCN regional offices in Bangkok. The next speaker we have is Ms. Joan Carling. Joan is Secretary-General of the Asia Indigenous Peoples Pact. Joan is an Indigenous activist from Cordillera, the Philippines. She has worked on Indigenous issues both at all levels from the grassroots to the international level and her field of expertise includes human rights, sustainable development, environment and climate change. And she has also been working a lot on the principles and application of the FPEG, free prior informed consent and is actively engaged with international bodies, processes such as the UNFCCC, RED and REDPLUS and also with other mechanisms related to management of natural resources. The third speaker we have is Ms. Parmaning Sehadi Nagoro. Ibu Parma is the Vice-President and Corporate Secretary of Danone Aqua. She started her career with PT Unilever Indonesia and has also worked with the Monsanto companies in Indonesia as well as with PT Terta Investama. So currently with PT Aqua Golden Mississippi, she is on the Board of Directors and currently the Managing Director also of Ibik, Sindhya and Bahad in Brunei. And the last speaker we have and not the least is Dr. Yatna Supriyatna. Dr. Yatna is the Chairman of the Research Centre and Climate Change of Universitas in Indonesia. He is also Chairman of the Oversight Committee of the Tropical Forest Conservation Act Trust Fund, the TFCA which is part of a debt for nature swap scheme between the US and Indonesian governments. Pao Yatna is also a member of the Indonesia Academy of Science and formerly the Indonesia Vice-President for Conservation International. Thank you Grace. Thank you very much for giving this opportunity to come and share some of the perspective that especially the Regional Community Forestry Training Centre that the organization I'm working for. When I got an invitation from Grace to be part of this panel, I consider quite a lot to decide and also I discussed with my team in RICOPTC whether we should go or we should not go. The reason is we are very careful about the spanning and travelling especially that we don't want to create many, many carbon footprint if it is not necessary. But the time is also I seriously hope that some of the perception and some of the point we made here is taken seriously by the key players especially the donor community and decision maker to make this point seriously in their future policy and decision making process. The reason is I work for the Regional Community Forestry Training Centre. This training centre has been 27 years already started as the very intergovernmental organization to promote the community forestry in the region especially in the Pacific region. We are very much focused to enhance the capacity of the local people to actively participate in the forest management and to address the unnumber of the issues facing in their daily lives. RICOPTC has a very clear three guiding principles. So all these guiding principles are very directly linked to all your questions Grace. So I think this is the right time for us to enhance our guiding principle is still the right thing. The first guiding principle is we are trying to ensure the securing the tenure and the stronger tenure for the local people who are living around and also very much taking this resource from the forest area. Of course the second guiding principle is we are trying to whatever activity we are trying to do in our organization and with the partner we want to make sure that we are trying to improve the governance. Governance is one of the key principles we all need to focus to have a transparency accountability and also the participatory monitoring evaluation system. Of course the third guiding principle is talking about the fair benefit. We are sometimes quite reluctant to use the equitable because in the real life you know when trying to translate this word to the communities and the stakeholder in the ground it is a bit challenging concept. They thought the equitable is equal. I don't think it is impossible to get a benefit equally for everybody. The world we are living is not equal. Now we are not getting these equal status. So sometimes we have to be very careful when we introduce this kind of concept to the local people when to make sure this concept is adaptable to the circumstances. So we try to use a fair benefit. The fair net is a little bit more easily acceptable terminology for the target audience that we are working for. Finally last year RECOF organized the forum for people in the forest. Clearly we invited a number of stakeholders coming from the region. We have more than 100 stakeholders but it is spent. They have a very common vision saying that they want to develop four areas to move this agenda forward. The first thing is securing the forest tenure community for is still a very priority for everybody. The second thing is of course making sure whatever policy we developed these policies need to be turned into the practical action. So this is the one of the areas even you have a very good policy, the policies are still on the paper not really implementing, not really reaching to the target audience. This is the challenge we are still having. The third area all the participants agree to further address is to make sure that the community forestry development is still a very slow process and still spreading everywhere. We want to make sure this development have a more consolidated approach looking within the landscape framework so that we can have a better impact and outcome of the development of community forestry. The fourth one is of course talking about making sure forestry agenda to be part of the global development agenda. We should not be out of this global development agenda. However we developed a million development goal or sustainable development goal beyond the 2015 this forestry sector especially for the community forestry must sector must be very important aspect of those development agenda. Of course the fourth part we are talking is making this the real case for the local people. When we try to promote the community products reaching to the market level we want to look at beyond the subsistence level so we want to make sure their products are reaching to the commercial scale and also the reaching to the more competitive market things. So these are the challenge we discussed and also all the participants agree to further address in the future. So very much linking to this your framework of your question and I would like to leave other speaker also to give a chance to talk into this event as well. Thank you. Thank you Dr. Tint. I think you raised quite a lot of important questions and perhaps one that is really interesting is also the perspective of what is equity and what is fairness and I think we'll listen to the other speakers and then come back to some of these questions. Please John. Okay let me first begin by stating that when we're talking of Asia it actually have two-thirds of the world's indigenous peoples which is more than 200 million and if we're talking of ASEAN there's around 80-200 million and at least 60 million of these are living in the forest or are dependent in the forest and indigenous peoples living in the forest or elsewhere have the major contribution given their very low carbon lifestyle and they practice sustainable use of resources particularly forest resources and this is one of their biggest contribution in terms of addressing climate change. Now because of our lifestyle and because of our sustainable use of resources we are able to maintain the kind of relationship that we have with nature and thereby when we talk of our rights we are talking of our rights over our customary forest our right to practice our traditional and sustainable livelihoods relating to forest like for example hunting and gathering gathering of forest timber products practice of sustainable shifting cultivation that supports food security and biodiversity enhancement as well as we also have our right to fair and equitable benefits from our conservation and management of the forest as well as our contribution to the carbon sequestration. Now if we look at ASEAN at the moment it's very alarming that in spite of the rhetorics of ASEAN for green growth it's very clear that the infrastructure or the investment plan and development plan of ASEAN is we still in the context of business as usual in terms of putting up infrastructures putting up large dams putting up all these highways that cuts across traditional forest expansion of palm oil expansion of commercial agriculture and how can this be equitable how can this be made equitable to community development or to green growth and so for us for indigenous peoples we have defined that in terms of our equitable entitlement first and foremost is that equitable development should be consistent with the recognition and respect and exercise of the rights of indigenous peoples and local communities especially as already stated of land tenure and the use of our resources to meet our own needs and the benefits that we get from the co-benefits for our conserving forest should be an additionality to the basic social services that is entitled for everyone so when I say additionality it should be mainly to support sustainable livelihoods including sustainable agroforestry that provides for food security that provides for the needs of the communities that supports and provides the needs of the poorest of the poor the women and children so when we talk of equitable we are not just talking of like what my colleague said it's not equal it's really addressing the needs of the poorest of the poor and women and children and also the elderly it's raising up their quality of life raising up their well-being so that they are at par with others and closing the gap between the rich and the poor it also means avoiding elite capture of the benefits that should go to the communities and not just few individuals equitable benefits of carbon and non-carbon contributions of indigenous peoples should also provide for appropriate facilities and infrastructures for community development according to the needs of the communities for example distribution of clean water irrigation renewable energy and agroforestry enhancement of agroforestry production that is that is sustainable as well as providing economic empowerment for women so these are the challenges that we think should be addressed when we talk of green economy or equitable development thank you thank you Joan so that's very interesting because you have raised also yet another point about equity in which case you've raised that equity is really about having the rights to development and having rights to development across all parts of society particularly for the for the poor and for the for women and so on so that is another perspective that we have heard from a second speaker let me invite our third speaker Ibu Parma to also give your perspective from the private sector thank you salamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh very good afternoon to you all first I think it's freezing in here so if you can do something can we adjust the temperature so that we can also save some energy and save the carbon footprint okay when we say what are the rights of communities and small holders and what roles can communities and small holders can play in the sustainable management of forest and landscape the question is whether the community and the small holders have the capacity and the competency to play their role because actually they should have been the main actor in the sustainable management of forest and landscape in this opportunity I would like to share what we have been doing as a private sector and how we can play our role in sustainable management of forest and landscape then on Aqua is managing its watershed to maintain the quality and quantity of water resource in sustainable way it means we are implementing programs and integrated water resource based on four pillars which are the nature and environment social economic education as well as the organization based on research and assessment we are working together with the local NGOs which has the expertise and the competencies within the areas to facilitate a social mapping to understand the economic and social condition of the areas as a foundation to develop programs and also community empowerment to build the capacity of the community so again in here we have to empower the community so that they can play their role and be the main actor so that the empowered community is encouraged to approach all the other stakeholders who have direct and indirect interest in preserving the watershed to establish multi-stakeholder forum the forum is to align vision and perception of all the watershed users so that they are able to develop action plan to manage watershed public awareness on the importance of environment preservation collective responsibility and also active role from the related stakeholders which are the government the private sector the civil society etc etc are the main key of a successful conservation program this action is taken to ensure that the growth rate of the trees planted is high managing watershed is a long-term commitment so that we in Dunon aqua will continue to develop programs that ensure quality of the outcome I have some example how we can maintain the growth rate of trees planted at 100% we have a program and Panchawati village charing in sub-district in Bogor where we work with the National Park of Mountain Gede Pangrangu and the communities who live surrounding the area to conserve the area and at the same time also to earn for their living we started the program in 2012 we facilitated Gamalina the local NGO to conduct the assessment sustainable livelihood assessment as the foundation to start the community development the program focus more and how to maintain the growth rate and not just how many trees are planted so the local NGO helps several training basically they train the cadders so that the cadders in turn can also influence or educate a higher community and they are responsible to nurturing 1200 trees that have been planted in the mountain in the National Park so again it's not about the quantity but it's the quality and how the community is responsible to nurture the tree and to ensure that it will be there one year from now three years from now and so on to compensate their effort and replacing their dependency on the forest product the farmers are facilitated to use the National Parkland to plant crop such as cucumbers and tomatoes so that they could sell them as their income I have some more example but I think the time will not allow but basically what the key message in here is that managing watershed is not one responsibility it's shared responsibility amongst every stakeholders among all other stakeholders and that the community should be the main actor and they have to be empowered so that they can in turn approach other stakeholders and that they can earn their living at the same time also preserve the nature and the the role of the government is also very important because they are the one who define the policies and regulation which is supposed to support the integrated water resource management or in general in preserving the environment last but not least I would also like to mention in here that based on our experience what will work best is to have a forum consisted of all the stakeholders and they sit together and based on the research and assessment they define the program work together starting from the planning the implementation the monitoring and also the evaluation so that's from my side thank you thank you for giving us a case study of how the private sector can also work with communities in terms of conservation and development and then I invite Park Yadna to give your short brief perhaps more from the conservation and biodiversity perspective thank you very good afternoon ladies and gentlemen I used to talk about biodiversity in front of very large biodiversity people but this afternoon I have to talk with all these people interested in the communities maybe I I will have a different opinion and I hope that I will provoke propagate to everybody's here how red really this community in conservation and and forest conservation in Indonesia or in Southeast Asia let me start with how important is Southeast Asia we have four hotspot area you know previous speaker about the high biodiversity is Indonesia we have like Indo Burma in Thailand Vietnam and others we have a Sundaland we have a Wallacea we have Philippines so we are very rich and plus of course we have community who are very ethnic diverse in Indonesia ladies and gentlemen I've been of 40 years teaching in and doing research and biodiversity and from one area forest to the other forest I can tell you that there is no success story on conserving the biodiversity in Indonesia in the Southeast Asia everything's you know if look at that the tiger is declined the elephant is declined everything is declined why is it this one that I thought after 40 years back and forth to the jungle the community has not get benefit the currently has not been involved in the biodiversity in conservation in the in in forest management I thought that you know as the biologists and being there and I thought that we can guarding this national park we can do all these forests but has not been any any progress in Indonesia in the Southeast Asia so what is the key I have been joining with this becoming the chairman of the oversight committee of the tropical forest conservation of trust fund in Sumatra and we working with community and I thought that you know the first thing that if you can have a lot of community who can work in you know already work in the jungle and it see if there are any success story they can tell and you know after no it's already three or four years there's so many success story you know and it's funny thing is that there's one area where there's empty forest syndrome that is in the park but in the area where in the garden forest where community guard there's orangutan there's everybody there's a lot of biodiversity there so what does it mean it seemed to me right that without communities there is no sustainable forest management there is no such in this Southeast Asia that the government can guard it I can hear from this morning even from the president our deforestation is really high so I believe that after 38 community they are working with we have 60,000 hectares safe the forest by communities and they have a lot of customary forest village forest community forest you name it I think the the key is that how do we make this community get benefit from the forest sometimes you think that community will not understand conservation you think that community will not understand how do do we use this the ecosystem services you think that the community well they don't understand the policy of these things but in fact after years and years working with community I just realize it as a biodiversity and biology specialist on conservation in the jungle it seemed that a keeper thing is that without community involvement income in the forest management I don't believe they will be sustained in managing the forest so a key thing again I really believe it after years and years especially when I was in conservation international we spent many many dollars I'll count it but it was really back again to what the conservation is really related to communities so I really believe it that community has to be part of the three sector collaboration I think the first and the last speaker mentioned about the multi stakeholders I do think that I really agree with the first and second speaker that equal equitable development is very important how community has to be also part of that should be equal not always the government has to be the decision-making on that policy because my understanding that I've been working in conservation many many years that once the decision-maker by the district level the governor said well this area has to be developed to be oil pump and many others but then community can be becoming the victims of that I think this should be in the first place there has to be equal on making this decision on the area I think that's really my point thank you thank you thank you for all first four speakers for giving your short presentations on your perspectives before we open up to the question answer to the audience I'd like to ask perhaps follow-up question to each of you perhaps I'll start with you John as part yeah I know we're saying communities have to be part of the solution in terms of conservation and sustainable development and my question to you is as you mentioned about ASEAN and the new the economic integration and also lots of this changing economic policies how has the values of indigenous peoples been impacted by these external economic and policy changes and how has you know those values been kind of taken in in externalized and how do they reflect in terms of the management of the resources yeah that's quite an interesting question because an unfortunately in spite of all our efforts to reach out to the ASEAN the more than 60 million indigenous peoples remain invisible in in the in the road map or development plan of ASEAN as if we don't exist in terms of you know their plans on on forest or all these infrastructures or creation of large thumbs but I believe that there is an increasing acknowledgement of the roles and contributions of indigenous peoples to sustainable resource management for example the enhancement of biodiversity because of our low-carbon lifestyle in fact if you look at the remaining forests in ASEAN it's in the territories of indigenous peoples because our community is as much as possible prevented illegal luggers or commercial lugging or expansion of palm palm oil so this kind of contribution is now being recognized and I think there's a lot of opportunities for co-management of resources within that within within a human rights based approach of the rights of indigenous peoples over our customary forest but at the same time contributing to food security which is one major major contribution also of our resource management as well as the like I said the enhancement of of biodiversity so if we look at for example our effective participation in a multi-stakeholders process what I want to emphasize here when we talk of multi-stakeholders process is also to recognize that we have our roles and responsibilities we should not forget that states are are still largely the duty bearers they have the they have the power to make policies and enforce policies but at the same time they need to respect the rights of indigenous people so these policies should be consistent with respecting the rights then we also as the rights holders and the others like private sector are bound to respect rights and contribute for economic development so in that connection I think there's there's opportunities to move forward along along this line okay thank you and so that brings us also to you Dr. Tint you mentioned that forestry should be part of the global development agenda and you mentioned that forestry should be you know learning the lessons from perhaps the MDG process and moving to the sustainable development goals yesterday President SBOI said something about setting appropriate targets indicators criteria for sustainable forestry and I wonder how you how you might move for or what are your suggestions for moving forward in terms of appropriate criteria thank you thank you Grace you know I'm very trying to be very positive but at the same time we need to be very realistic especially when we give us some critical comments and points when you look at the yesterday I was so very inspired to I mean to listen to the speech from the president talking about the sustainable forestry can be a must be in the development agenda in coming and coming futures coming to gates looking at the Millennium Development Goals over the last decade they are they said in the report most of the goals they achieved especially in the education and health sector when they talk about the achievement in the environmental sustainability is one of the Millennium Development Goals they have a I think about full criteria they made measure in that goal of course they mentioned they mentioned that like assess to the drinking water and having the better sanitation they are quite good criteria indicator they can measure this some of the sustainable development goal has been achieved but if you look at the integrating the sustainable development we still lost our forest at an alarming rate I don't think this is a good indicator as well this is not that the right case I mean I mean what I mean is so we should do a little bit much better and also they mentioned about this increasing the biodiversity conservation because they said protected areas increase about 58% over the last this Millennium Development Co-period they mentioned a lot about the number and quantity but in reality if you go and look at the most of the protected areas very much on paper I can say most of them are not very effectively managing so this is a huge issue about that so when you talk about these the in the sustainable development goal in the future the relevance of the forestry sector one of the point maybe we can consider the more affected indicators is I quite concerned about the investment talking about the investment from there not only from the government but also from the global development assistant to the forestry sector the a lot of high expedition from the forestry sector to the climate change to poverty reduction now again to the green growth economy but the investment to the forestry sector is compared to that the man is very low investment so we need to have a very strong serious you know investment to these forest sector especially from the national level government of course you know especially in most of the country who rely on the forest sector for their national income they need to have a very strong national investment program reinvest in the forestry this is a very serious thing they need to do but the same time global development assistant now is a I think reaching about 130 billion but from out of that the forestry sector development system is very very still minimum so if you really expect to demonstrate the forestry sector can play we need to be serious about the investment in the forestry sector this is a one of the key point I would like to highlight in this event as well thank you okay so actually this segues very well perhaps to a question to both Ibu Parma and Poryatna so traditionally forestry conservation and development are somewhat segregated if you wish in terms of a political agenda and also in terms of how you manage a landscape you may have protected areas and you may have developed agricultural sectors that are very with lines clearly drawn as we talk about now how you integrate forest into development and how you manage these landscapes what are some of your thoughts because this clearly involves not just the public sector but also very much private sector and also very much local communities so perhaps I can direct the question to both of you yeah I agree that we have to give equitable rights if we can say so to the indigenous people to the community and from the private sector I think if all the stakeholders play their role and especially for the private sector they do things which are necessary with regard to their core of business in working together with other stakeholders to preserve the landscape and the environment I think that would be the ideal situation I understand that there's also limitation in the ability of the government to play their role but again if the private sector in having or conducting their business activity at the same time also equally responsible in managing the impact of their business then it will be something good for the sustainable management of the landscape because I think we have to go to the the basic that actually we have as as a private sector we have to maximize the positive impact of our actions and also minimize the negative impact of our actions so if everybody really understand this and play their role I believe it will be a significant contribution to the effort yeah I think that's my view from from private sector thank you yeah I think we live in one landscape you know either private sector government or communities so one landscape where everybody really looking for to harmonize between really need for development really need for protection really need for communities livelihood and social so if we are thinking about the silos this is the agriculture this is forestry this is a cities I think it's way behind I mean inward looking I mean if you are forward-looking look at the impact if you are doing something for example if you are doing something and outside of these head head water they will be impact to the city they will be back to the community they will be impact to everybody's so I want to see that the landscape level where I think the sustainable landscape is a very important where everybody can play everybody harmonize all these not making the impact to others sometime because for the sake of development then we are jeopardizing everybody's maybe it's a development for short vision but in the long run maybe they were really discounted basically is a catastrophe or many others things so to me that if you look at thinking of the landscape level which is the government usually is so district and and and and contain to very small thing if look at Sumatra for example you know 1970 I was flying really from Medan to Jakarta it's very beautiful where the landscape communities and everything now you will see it it's all the almost homogenous oil pump everywhere I don't see it so where is the security food security and everything because once that oil pump or many others community are firing upon of disease or anything I think they will be a very very so the landscape I mean I'm a theoretical biologist I always look at that there should be diversities the landscape has to be diversity I mean community has to live in that because there has been thousand years they're living and adapted with the the forest while you need the development of course for but you cannot say for the sake of the development you're jeopardizing the landscape thank you okay thank you very much so now we have let's open the session to questions from the audience to have some questions I see a hand that shots up very quickly over there the gentleman in the back are there any other questions one gentleman in the front get by the couple over there let's take three or four before we go please so my name is Tony I'm working with USA in Jakarta when we need to look at the history of community development community-based forest management and everything related to community then the relationship with forestry in this country I think if you look at the history the community forestry has been discussed 40 years ago since 1978 when people start to talk about community community forestry and everything and you look at the process political changes and changing approaches to support community I didn't see too much progress in this country I didn't see the problem is that I mean the issues become more and more complex related to the community in and their relation to the forest we have more research more ideas more institutions more regulations but when I visited many sites landscapes conservation conservation forest or areas in Sumatra Kalimantan and eastern Indonesia I see more and more forest degraded more and more forests are separated from the forest and I didn't see any good success story that I can tell other people that we can use as a model to tell policymakers about how to to develop better community-based forest management in this country if you look between between early 98 until now you see the issues people incorporated into discussion or design about community forestry in the past we talk about community rights community responsibility and then we talk about sustainable sustainable development talk about community forest about sorry about sustainability gender governance and now we talk about climate change people in the field they get more and more confused and one of the big gaps that one of the big gaps that I see in the field is that the when we talk about the issues ideas policies who translate those issues and ideas into community-based forest management most of the people who work on the ground are local NGOs or maybe if we have good government extension workers they can do it but the big issue now is the big the weak capacity of the local NGOs to translate those issues into action on the ground we at the USA we sometimes get very frustrated that we have you know we allocate some money to give to NGOs including the tropical forest conservation action in Sumatra we have we have to we found so many NGOs they have brilliant ideas they good ideas but they very weak interest in translating ideas into project design in project management how to work appropriately with community so the issue that sorry the issue now now is it's not about the ideas it's not about the concept it's not about the funding but the problem is how to get NGOs to translate these ideas into appropriate good sound community-based forest management on the ground I think if any of you can give us any example how you work with NGOs at the local level they can work with community-based forest management with good success story with results and impact on rights responsibility market or economy as and governance it will be interesting for us to learn and how can we apply to our projects in Indonesia thank you okay thank you so the question relates to the perfect model perhaps that and how these things could work let's take a couple of other questions hi yes my names am I work for a local NGO I definitely agree that communities and indigenous organizations and local community groups should be given rights and should be given control over how they manage their lands and they should definitely involved in the mapping of that however I do think it's important not to romanticize those kind of groups and also talk about them as a homogenous group as well I was recently in Riau and in an area where you could only access by boat it's in a protected forest area and I spoke with the head of a local indigenous organization and he was quite keen to open up a road he was also keen on the the local community opening up kalapa saw it farms as well so I think yeah it's quite I'd be interested to see here the panel's point of view about how you can mitigate that so once these local communities and indigenous organizations have control of lands how do we ensure that they're actually going to be protecting them because not they're human too right indigenous people aren't just these wonderful groups of people who definitely want to support their local environment and protect it there are people who can be tempted into thinking selfishly and perhaps not thinking about the environment my name is Fendi Sumarja I am from PT Recky from the Hutan Harapan in Jambi the most important things that I feel we discussed in the beginning in Asia particularly problems with land tenure is a very high I don't know where the possibility for the ASEAN or South East Asia countries to find a solution how we can solve the land tenure based on the experiences within each countries because so far it will come back again to the problem of land tenure whatever it is in communities development problem and my my my feeling also that the sense of belonging sometimes make a difference between one one stakeholders to the other stakeholders and they're talking different thing although it is we are talking about the land tenure itself as well as the activities within that community development so I would like to find a solution probably from all the panelists to find out a solution on that those questions thank you perhaps we'll take a last question from the lady in the front thank you my name is Lillis Dewati from I'm an Ibrino Ritor for FSE in this discussion we talk about a local community and community first but suddenly I hear about indigenous people I will talk about the same people within I mean community for us and indigenous people or is there any distinguished difference between them thank you okay so we have four questions one highlighting the complexity in communities and community forestry and trying to identify some of the success stories and how do you translate complex ideas to local communities and the implementation of those ideas and the second question relates to the point that community forestry groups are certainly not homogeneous and as we talked about equity they certainly have a right to development but you know what are the tradeoffs between development and conservation in their in their land use decisions and therefore is this use decisions that we have one question on antenna and perhaps the fourth question is more director at John in the distinction or non-distinction between indigenous peoples and communities so perhaps you undertake the first question yes thank you grace and also thank you to me for your very very good points I agree most of your point as well because the as a practitioner to promote this a community forestry sometimes I personally very frustrated about this the pace of the development of the community forest area in the in the region even you said rightly said we studied this concept somewhere around in 1970s 75 you know at that time the Jack West over all of you know from previous FAO director general he rightly saying that the forest for the local development right the forest need to be changed and we are managing forest is managing the people the needs of the people is that the since that time we studied this a community forestry development idea but if it depends on the how you built this trust over the last say nearly 40 years you know trust building take really time most of the time in most of the land ownership in this region is a public you know the government control government land there's a need to build the trust between the local communities and the government so sometimes most of the time the government trust the local people at the same time local people do not trust the government so this one the the process of this a proving the community forestry is taking very long in some government in some country but there's also the some success story and very rapid movement in the country like Nepal you know recognizing the community forest very large scale of the country and then consider quite a significant amount of the forest are another community managed area so we especially the national level decision maker need to be more serious and of course that the in their policy even they have a beautiful policy but turning into the practice need to be very practical and that they need to do more and also the very proactive way of understanding and talking to the local people understanding their needs and also the recognizing their rights through the community forestry is still a major gap to go and to follow you also rightly mentioned about the the role of the the the local NGOs bringing this message to the to the to the local people in the real what we are facing including the organization like regional organization like RECOPT we still trying very hard to you know to survive because the as I said development assistant we can get from the this international community is to very limited assess very limited resources and at the most important aspect is even you have a development package how you use this development package how you distribute this development package is another question mark for us most of the time these resources are not really reached to the sort of like a local organization or local NGO their sustainability and they are also the long-term commitment to you know they strategically address this kind of the capacity building issues to the local people they need to have a really long term and strategic support from these international development communities this is the one of the issue they're still facing and but from time to time the community forestry has been tested already community forestry itself to me it is a really valid options community can if you apply properly can address a lot of the issues that we are facing you know can address about the lively who can address to the poverty reduction can address to the climate change adaptation climate change medication to just name it now just another global policy comes a green-growth economy if you have a proper arrangement and also the really trust to the local community and local people through the community forestry arrangement I don't you know I have any doubt about this a success of this model in the long run the only thing is the investment to this community forestry development is very slow comparing to the private sector plantation development you know most of the country they have a more private sector plantation than the more community managed area so this is the remaining challenge the recent report from RRI is saying that land tenure reform is talking a lot most of them are still in the air when they were land it's me turning into the practical action up to now by 2013 according to RRI data only 500 millions are still under the community land management community land tenure still far behind the target we still need to do a lot more to make sure as the gentleman says thanks for belonging you know if you don't have any sense of belonging nobody pays serious attention this is the remaining challenge for all of us to address further so this is the most important how your development assistant really distribute to the target audiences and also the local institution at the end of the day the capacity and the commitment of the local institutions will last forever some people playing very from outside or from externally they may come and go depends on the whether they can grab the some of the development assistant so the most important thing is a you need to strengthen local institution from time to time so that's the way that Rick of is trying very hard to make sure local institution and local people are well informed and also they are also the their capacity is a well-strengthened so we are trying very hard for that I know this is a very long way to go but I personally and professionally I believe that community forestry is a one of the very effective solution if all of us address properly so thank you very much for that yeah let me just respond to all four two quick points on the issue of good practice on community forestry I think it's been clear that communities who have land tenure over the forest have managed it better that's one and second is that there's a strong community ownership that it's not actually NGO driven but it's really the community managing their forest in accordance to the kind of livelihood support that they need so I think those are key elements in the in successful community forest forestry that I saved from the Philippines where I come from now on the issue of the indigenous peoples being I certainly agree indigenous peoples are not homogeneous and there are already a lot of changes that's happening in indigenous communities in including conflicts within communities where some members have become opportunist or taking advantage over the community owned resources so I think what's important here is to again revive the values of indigenous peoples with regards to upholding the common good and that resources are to be shared by everyone so we need to strengthen the vigilance and the cooperation of communities along this line so that the use of resources are going to be equitable and not subjected to an elite capture which for example is happening in certain areas of community forestry where it's not already community owned but it's an at least arrangement with individuals and thereby those the other owners of the land suddenly becomes the workers of the community forest management so those are the kinds of challenges that exist in terms of the issue of land tenure in ASEAN that's certainly a very big challenge and if we look at how land tenure in the ASEAN is now in the context of indigenous peoples the Philippines have a strong law on indigenous peoples rights which also recognized our right to our land Cambodia has a has a law on community land rights and now we have the constitutional court decision for the recognition of the forest customary rights of Indonesia the problem more is the enforcement of these laws and that's where the biggest challenge that we face in quite a number of ASEAN so we need the support of other sectors and especially the state agencies to really also recognize the the contribution of land tenure for indigenous peoples and local communities in terms of ensuring better sustainable resource management there's already clear evidence that that land tenure areas where land tenure are recognized are or are the areas where resources are better managed by by the communities and that benefits are better shared as well by the communities in terms of the issue of indigenous peoples and local communities are this the same not in the context of ASEAN I I recognize that indigenous peoples is a contentious issue in the region but if we look at international human rights instruments it did not define what indigenous peoples are but it clearly provides for certain collective rights to correct social injustice that has been done for centuries of discrimination of people who are the original owners of land but were discriminated and but still maintains our cultural identity our cultural heritage our strong relationship with our lands and we identify ourselves as indigenous so those are the kind those are the features that makes us different from the majority of the population of a certain country and where we persist and insist our cultural difference and the way we relate and we relate with with nature in in a very holistic manner so that's just a quick response to the question thank you can I add to please answer to the question number one well I share your frustration and it's also our experience that it's not that easy to find the most suitable local NGO to be partnering with but we have a success story in Sukabumi West Java where we work with local NGO I'm afraid I cannot mention the name otherwise it will be a promotion of the NGO but sorry so so it is to us very important that we don't start big I think the key is to start small and then if it succeeds then you can replicate to other locations and start bigger perhaps but of course the question is whether this can cope with the rate of the conversion of forest into something else in a unsustainable way but only conservation skills training but also organizational training so this Lali is currently is very independent and they can have highly negotiation skill and and talk with the government and also to invite other stakeholders and now they are independent and they can run their program on their own another key is for the community sorry for the program to be successful is for the community itself to have the ownership and sense of belonging and the willingness to work together with other stakeholders and also to for them to be able to earn their income from this from the program whatever project or program that that you have at the same time when they are also preserving the nature because it's just impossible for us to ask them to play their role and preserving the nature if their income is disturbed so at the same time you have to give them the economic at value when you also ask them to participate in preserving the environment I really like to respond to Tony about this first thing about local NGOs but I feel that I'm really happy this now this time because there's so many basically local NGO now participate in the community forestry I think compared to 40 years ago of course that the number at the time is very low but now is you know a lot of people you know but the only thing that I don't see it that how this all this everywhere in Indonesia for example we can learn from one each others you know I mean we can bring it to the high levels quality of this community and local NGO especially when they're translating to the community I understand that there's so many issue like climate change ecosystem services all the jargon you know how that really translated to the very simple language to the communities that is really need the basic trading for not to community but the local NGO who's you know working with the community I do believe that capacity building strengthening this knowledge enforcement on some point by community and together with the government is a necessary but look at what that really the different comparing for example the deforestation in a national park compared to the area where the community right I think it's way the lot of deforestation in Indonesia basically now is in the national park and protected area compared to the area where the communities belong in so it seemed to me if you are comparing this is not the real but the other thing is also to me that of course local community control the land for example the case of the real I think for many many years in reality community is you know they live and they never use the land for many different things they just for basic livelihood but once the oil palm come with all this coming the migration from North Sumatra and many others it's becoming jealousy it's becoming you know I'd say there are many things there so they're starting the even the selling the land belong to the communities so it is really not really a pure of this right or channel but it's really outside who come and and start to to influence the communities and the problem of land tenure I mean see Indonesia you look at that right now they are revolution I don't see the evolution of this thing but the revolution with a lot of new things in Indonesia like for example the decree of the constitutional court that now is number 35 I believe that really making that community get to gain again for right to be Hutan adat which is adat adat forest so and then the other one is also the Minister of Forestry they so many now giving a lot of opportunity for community I believe they only more than thousand village forests now is recognized by Minister of Forestry us as belong to the adat leaders adat the community so there's so many revolution I mean in Indonesia in term of the recognition recognizing about the community but of course there's no one silver bullet to resolve all these things it's so complex especially when you know nobody trying to work in the landscape level collaborating how to resolve this harmonizing between the needs because if look at that Indonesia for example in Indonesia the law on the land use planning the changes every five years and they can change who is going to defend as land use planning for profits for district so it is really hard for community to be involved all the time so I think once you have already becoming a law this is the law whereas the harmonizing between the need for conservation the need for community livelihood the need for development like oil palm and many others then you know it can settle but otherwise there was really difficult because without collaborating understanding each other I don't believe don't use the the brain but use the heart otherwise you always has using that logic everything has to be logic but if you're using the heart that you can use everybody to be shared between all the things in the landscape level thank you okay thank you by Anna I think I'm under pressure to finish on time so we have just about three minutes left so would ask perhaps each of the key speaker to in 30 minutes what is your one key message that you would like to bring out again from this session that we could bring up to as part of the key messages for the conference and since we started with Dr. Tin this time perhaps we start with Park Yatna with this way and you have 30 seconds well I want to see the more incentive major incentive for community to conserve or to work with the forest management it's not only a blaming because the blaming is so easy but how do we develop the incentive community billion million dollars all is talking about the policy not talking with communities I mean there are a lot of success story in community but we always forgot thank you I share the same view with Dr. Yatna and I also would like to highlight in here the importance of the multi-stakeholder approach where everybody played their role not only just the community the private sector also the public sector and most important as well as the government thank you I have three points to recommendations one is that there needs to be a research on the traditional livelihoods including sustainable shifting cultivation from the perspective of a landscape approach for sustainable resource management second is that there should be policy harmonization in favor of recognizing the forest customary rights of indigenous peoples and and local communities and third my key message is that equitable development and green economy will only be successful if there if there is a recognition of the rights and entitlements of indigenous peoples local communities and a respect for ecological balance and ensuring the full full participation in sustainable management of resources by indigenous peoples and local communities as well as other rights holders thank you I would like to highlight the the role of the RASACH institution like C4 and also the the application of the RASACH results by the policy maker and decision-maker and most of the time policymaking and decision-making are very much based on the popular narratives so these people need to be well informed and also the RASACH C4 data a number of the girls RASACH over the last 20 years so these RASACH results need to be disseminated effectively through the partnership these results need to be reached to the even the target to the local audiences this is the most important aspect even you do have the RASACH result is to need to really disseminate that effectively to reach to the policy maker decision maker as well as the local community as well thank you to the four speakers for very succinctly actually doing my job and summarizing already the key messages so thank you very much for that and thank you very much to the audience for being very patient and sitting through this discussion session I think we have quite a lot of very exciting points that were brought up issues around tenure issues around equity issues around what are appropriate incentives dialogue and also the need for research so please join me in thanking our panel