 Hello and let's talk about the judiciary. Now, the judiciary is often seen by a lot of people as a last resort in a country like India. A lot of responsibility lies on the judiciary, especially when it comes to checking the power and excesses of the executor. In recent times, though, many have asked if it is fulfilling its vital duty as a pillar of our democracy. The recent Prashant Bhushan case was one such instance where many such concerns were raised by lawyers and common people in society. But this is not just about one case but a larger trend. What can the judiciary do to address such concerns and restore confidence in the minds of democracy loving people? How can the judiciary be reclaimed by the people? Two of India's very eminent members of the legal fraternity, former chief justice of the Supreme Court Madan Lokur and Indira Jai Singh, senior advocate in the Supreme Court of India, discussed the issue. I'm just getting the impression that we, the judiciary in this country, is silent for want of a better world. And so far as I know, the only means that are available to citizens at the end of the day is to approach the judiciary for relief in situations of this kind. And if the judiciary goes silent, here no evil, see no evil, speak nothing, then do we, do we have a way of reclaiming the judiciary for ourselves and for the people of this country? I'd like to ask you this funny question. How do we reclaim the judiciary and bring it back to its God function of delivering justice? Yeah, you see, I have expressed a view on more than one occasion that our judiciary should introspect. Right? There should be a dialogue. If the judiciary thinks what they're doing is right, perfectly okay. You know, have a dialogue, have an introspection. If you come to the conclusion that what we are doing is okay, you know, a lot of people are talking a lot of nonsense, fair enough. If you think on introspection and dialogue, you know, with amongst themselves or amongst others, lawyers and so on, that, you know, something more needs to be done, fair enough, do it, you know, but not doing anything or apparently, apparently not doing anything because I don't know if something is happening or not. But apparently not doing anything is not helping anybody. You know, I very strongly think that it is, the time has come. There is a lot of, you know, criticism, so to speak, about the judiciary, you know, it may be valid, it may not be valid, I'm not going into that. But as long as it is there, you know, it is time for the judiciary to sit down and introspect. I'm not only talking about the Supreme Court, it could be the High Court. You know, maybe some strange decisions have come from a particular state, you know, or the district judiciary of a particular state. The High Court judges need to sit down and say, you know, why are we getting these strange orders? You know, it could be any state. But I think that, you know, introspection, trying to find out, you know, are we on the right track? I think that's very, very important. Very interesting suggestion. I think some kind of a, some kind of a self audit by the judiciary of its own functioning from the point of view of rule of law, which is, in my opinion, the core function of the judiciary. How does, how do you maintain the rule of law and that if there could be a judicial audit, even if it is a self audit, even if, as you say, the judiciary introspect, even within themselves, if they could come up with some understanding of where do they stand on the issue of rule of law. Now, for me, it's a very interesting suggestion that you're making. You see, take sedition, for example. You know, why is bail being denied to people on the ground of sedition? Now, it is something which I think a lot of people in the legal profession are talking about. Is it not possible for the judges of the High Court or of the Supreme Court or whatever to sit down and say that, listen, why is it happening? You know, and is it right, you know, should bail be declined if they come to the conclusion that yes, bail should be declined, fair enough. But if they come to the conclusion that bail should not be declined and it is being declined, some corrective steps will need to be taken. So, yeah, introspection is necessary. Unfortunately, Justice Locour, an impression has grained ground in the media and among the public that judges have become executive minded. What they deliver is what the ruling parties or the governments of the day want them to deliver. This is the sad reality that we are faced with after having devoted our life to the judiciary. You as a judge, me as a practicing lawyer, and it makes me at least hang my head in shape. Yeah, there is, people have said that the judiciary has been executed, but then yeah, think about it. Our next segment is a conversation between writer Vijay Prashad and musician Roger Waters. I'm with the doom and gloom of our world, the hunger, the war, the corporate greed and the violence, the coups, the suppression of people, people's movements and environmental degradation. How does one find hope? Vijay and Roger Waters talk about the latter's iconic work, The Gunners Song, and finding hope in this context. Circling quickly back to The Gunners Dream, again, you know, Final Cut 1983. This is a period when Ronald Reagan is in the White House when the dirty wars in Central America have picked up once again a cycle of dirty wars. It's a very depressing period. And in a sense, we keep seeming to fall into these depressing periods in cycles. But back in a depressing period, there is not necessarily a dirty war in Central America, but there's this terrible hybrid war against Venezuela. There's a blockade on Cuba. There is just so much that's distressing in the world. Where do you go to pull hope from? You know, what keeps you going from a song you wrote in the 1980s to songs you're writing now? There are songs about the horrible things of the world, but there are also songs of hope. Where do you go to find that? What the hope? That's the hardest quest of all. To keep a grip on hope is really difficult. How do I do it? I do it by being looking at the microcosm, really. I say, all right, let me tell you this. There's a bloke in Texas who, through one of my correspondents, email correspondents I discovered, who is a vet, he's a Vietnam vet, he's been a political activist, blah, blah, blah. He had a couple of strokes a few months ago. And they came to my attention, so I looked into him to see if he was real or not. I decided he was real. And he was crowdfunding. And I don't know why. He was looking to raise 20 grand or something, and he raised, you know, three or something like that. And I read his story and looked into him and then checked with somebody who knew him. They said, this guy is a 100% really good man, you know. But so I decided to help him. So I sent him money. And I'm not going to tell you his name because it might embarrass him and it gets complicated. But so first of all, he changed his, after he'd accepted it, he changed his bank details because he suddenly panicked and thought I might be trying to steal money out of his bank account. So we had to get through it all again and I had to somehow convince him that I was real, you know, which I did. Anyway, I've remained in contact with him and it's only been a few months. And I sent him, I showed you a picture of our new puppy. I sent him a picture of that puppy because I know he's a dog owner. And it was the day after Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. And I said, bummer about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And he sent me this very eloquent letter back, desperately unhappy about the loss and the monumental loss of this great, wonderful woman and terrified of what may happen, you know, if the Supreme Court suddenly turns into six, three and is like that for the next 10 years or something. And blah, blah. What am I trying to tell you? Oh, but also there's a bit of chat in this later. He said, thank you again and blah, blah, blah. He said, he said, my house is old and falling down. And there's nothing that he said with the help you've given me, I'm turning two rooms into lettable space for two immigrant families. So that they've got somewhere warm and dry to put their feet up for a fraction of the money they're paying in the awful places that they're living at the moment. So he says, that's part of what, however. So he says, so we're turning now into a sanctuary. He said, that's all up to immigrant families. And also I've been providing shelter for women who've been raped in the army by good old US soldier boys and who are getting none of the help and support they need from the VA and so on and so forth. So here's this guy, he's had two little strokes and he's still bursting and bubbling with love for his fellow human beings. Well, that's what you're, that's where you find your hope. It's in little small personal stories about people who demonstrate that the gunner's dream lives on. And it would only have to be happening between one dreamer, who's also an activist and who acts upon the gunner's dream and somebody who needs it because it's the relationship between the helper giver, whatever, and the person and the person in need. In this case, immigrants would know where to live or whatever. It's that symbiotic relationship that it becomes a furnace of joy for everyone in him. And that is where hope springs. You know, I feel quite emotional even talking about it. All you need is that one little thing and you go, you know what, this is worth it. You have to keep fighting. You have to give by however small the ripples may be when you drop your pebble in the pond. They are going to reach other ripples or they're going to reach the shore somewhere and everything is a cause and has an effect. So you have to believe the dream is that your pebble means something. And it doesn't matter how much is, what matters is that it's a pebble of love. That's all that's important. And when you get an echo that comes back out of the darkness, you know, a ripple, you feel that tiny ripple from another pebble of love and you go, this is worth it. This is worth every ounce of energy that you put into it. Not least because if you're the two-stroke guy and you're helping, you're getting, you're almost certainly getting more out of it than the people who are so grateful to you for giving them a roof over their heads. Because that is the nature of the collective, that is the nature of community, that is the connection, that is the nature of loving one another and trying to help one another. So that's what I hope is. That's all we have time for today. We'll be back tomorrow with more news from the country and the world. Until then, keep watching NewsClick.