 Rwyf i chi'n gweld erioed, mae'n gweithio i ddim yn cymdeithasio a yr ydynt gennyn ei roi drwyddiadau mewn、 yn roi ddim yn cwestiynau'r iawn na ddim yn cychysig ym 5000 maen nhw Ie, mae ydw i'r maen nhw'r iawn gan i Gryffwll Cymru, ac mae'r iawn yn gweithio i gynhyrchu dewis o'r iawn, ac rwy'n ffaith rydw i'w cychwyn i ddim yn cymdeithasio, ddim i ddim yn cymdeithasio i ddim yn cychwyn i ddim yn cymdysig, I now call on Ms Graham to open the debate. You have seven minutes or thereby, Ms Graham. Thank you, and a much-cammer Christine Graham on a cammer debate than in the last one. On 26 September, I attended the launch of a capital credit union outpost at Penicook Northcourt Church. It sounds like something from the wild west, but it is a partnership with a capital credit union in Edinburgh and other local denominations such as St Mungos and St James the Les. It is volunteers drained by capital credit union who helped run the operation and some meme have made it through the storms to be in the gallery tonight. The church provides the premises free of charge and low the impresbytery, the furniture. As you all know because you are all informed in here, credit unions, and I am a member of the capital credit union, should have declared this sooner, is a financial cooperative that provides savings, loans and a range of services to its member and, very importantly, it is non-profit making. It is owned and controlled by the members, a bit like the old trustee savings bank, Deputy Presiding Officer, which I think you might remember. Each member has one vote and volunteer directors are elected from the membership by the membership for the membership. Membership of a credit union is based on a common bond. That can be working for a particular employer in a particular industry or simply living or working in a specified geographical area, which could be as small as a village or as large as several local authority areas or, in this case, the size of Penicook. Credit unions encourage all their members to save. This is the key, save. Members can pay in directly by payroll, deduction or through benefit direct accounts, through retail payment networks such as Paypoint or Payzone, by standing order, direct debit or in cash at local offices and collection points. The credit union offers an affordable source of credit to their members and there is the word affordable, another key word, not loans that lead the borrower into personal financial crisis. In fact, they are more responsible than the so-called responsible banks, where or indeed perhaps still are. They are prepared to make the small sum, the shorter term loan, which most banks and building societies do not offer. Yet interest in credit union loans is always much lower than that charged by doorstep lenders and payday lenders. For example, home credit companies such as Provident openly advertise a typical APR of 399.7 per cent, while paydaylenders such as wonga.com can charge rates in the order of 5,853 APRs too. Lawn charts can charge even more outrageous interest rates and, incidentally, interest for savers isn't that bad either. At the north cut, there was already established a food bank and this is a further practical church initiative, introducing people to that old-fashioned way of saving and responsible borrowing, and again, as I say, in a not-for-profit organisation. The borrowing that is offered, the loans that are offered are on the basis of what the person can afford, a proper look at what they can afford so that they don't get into trouble. This initiative follows a special commission undertaken by the Church of Scotland in 2012, which called on the Kirk society and our Governments to take action on four priorities, reducing inequality, ending poverty, ensuring sustainability and promoting mutuality. The important report encouraged the use of credit unions, commenting that, with the new breed of pawn shops, payday loans, check caching and so on, and instant internet loans, it's easy for the unwary to fall into a debt trap. In 2014, the Church of Scotland General Assembly took up this theme and encouraged all members of the church to save and to borrow with a credit union, and I encourage all members here and outside to do just that. That is what Penicook, through its churches, is doing. The facility is open 10 to 12 noon on Mondays and 2 pm to 4 pm on Fridays. The target was to sign up two new members to the capital credit union each week. In the first few weeks of operation, with the team of trained volunteers, they have signed up 28 new members exceeding that target. Each of those people will have opened a savings account with capital credit, and in addition, they have even had one loan taken at that time. Quotes, joining a credit union is a great way to support ethical banking. Credit unions are responsible lenders and offer affordable credit. They also encourage us to save as well as borrow, and, as I said before, not for profit. That can be a real benefit to all the people of Penicook, and the more people who join, the greater that benefit will be. I have already joined, and I hope that everyone who lives or works here will join to close quotes. As I have said, I encourage all members who are not yet a member of a credit union to do so. The interest is quite good in savings, and it is an ethical way to save and allow others to borrow responsibly. There is a good return and interest that I have said, and, better still, you have got this mutual funding for people who may not be able to access banks otherwise. I very much congratulate on the church. I am not a member of a church myself, I am actually an atheist, but I have to say that this is where I like to see churches doing and putting their money where their mouth is. I commend the churches of Penicook who are doing just that practical work in the community, firstly through the food banks, now through having the capital credit union outposts, encouraging people within the community, and helping those who maybe need a little bit more help. So I wish the pilot well, and I look forward to localising credit union facilities being extended following in Penicook's footsteps. Thank you very much. I now call on Malcolm Chisholm to be followed by Kenny MacAskill, four minutes of thereby, please, Mr Chisholm. Presiding Officer, this time of year is a time for celebration, for being with family and friends and reflecting on the year gone by. It is also a time of increasing pressure to give gifts to spend, to splash out on treats for those who care about. For many, it is a time of real stress as parents buckle under the weight of expectation and advertising to spend. For some, this time of year is no different to the rest of the year, a constant struggle to make ends meet. This is often the time when we see many people in Scotland turn to payday lenders and short-term solutions. That is why Christine Grahame's motion today is so welcome. Credit unions provide saving accounts and a range of services, including a safe, reliable alternative to payday loans and their accompanying high-sky interest rates, something that my colleague Kezia Dugdale has done so much to highlight over recent years, and I'm sure all in the chamber would commend this work. It helped to make a greater number of people aware not only of the danger of loan sharks, but also of the existing alternatives. Therefore, the piloting and possible expansion of capital credit unions through the work of dedicated church volunteers is a very welcome development indeed, and the more awareness that we as a Parliament can raise to this alternative, the better. Volunteers, as Christine Grahame has outlined at Penicure North Church, give their time to run a satellite office for capital credit union, where local people can find out about saving and borrowing with capital credit union and also apply to join. The credit union office is staffed by volunteers from Penicure North Kirk, St Mungos and St James The Less, all of whom have been fully trained by capital, in a joint endeavour to offer fair and affordable savings and loans to church members and others in the community. Traditionally, credit unions have been small, non-profit financial organisations set up by members with something in common to benefit their community. That common factor may be living in the same town, working in the same industry or belonging to a particular trade union. Can I mention here the local North Edinburgh credit union, which serves the North Edinburgh part of my constituency, but clearly the capital credit union serves my constituents and people in a much wider area? Of course, the advantage of a larger credit union such as capital is that it is more able to give the kind of loans that are an alternative to payday loans. For example, it can give fast-track loans of £500 to anyone who joins the credit union. Of course, that is at a rate of interest, which is considerably less than even the capped payday loans that have been announced recently. The most extensive credit union loan will still charge eight times less interest than payday loans at their new cap. I hope that that cap will be considerably reduced, because, while it was a step forward, it is clear that there is a long way to go. Generally, to be part of a credit union, as we have heard, you need to share a common bond with other members. Those common bonds mean that those who pay in also have a say in the running of the credit union, so it is genuinely rooted in shared interest and community. It is part of the philosophy of credit unions. Everyone pays a small amount in to save for a rainy day, and everyone in the community gets the safety net that they need in the full knowledge that they have a major role in the functioning of the union. The more people who start to use credit unions, the better. Credit unions continue to call for measures to boost membership. I welcome any policies that the Government can bring forward to promote credit union membership. For example, the credit unions are saying that they would like the public sector to encourage all employees to join a credit union, and there are various ways that they could do that. Another demand from the credit union movement is that there should be a guaranteed loan fund for the purposes of lending by credit unions. Again, I welcome the minister's comments on that. It would be a form of preventative spend in terms of stopping people getting into the kinds of difficulties they get with payday loans. Credit unions are an absolutely great institution that I have admired for a long time and a time of immense distress in the integrity of those who guide our financial systems. Credit unions, I believe, offer an ethical breath of fresh air. I thank both Christine Grahame for raising the issue. It has been raised in Parliament before, but it is right, not just because of the time of year, as Malcolm Chisholm has said, but because the issue itself is important and we should continue to drive that home, and that the Government will respond and show what further commitment it is making to what has already been given. It is important that we should recall both the general and the specific matters here that are important to pay tribute to the local credit union that Christine Grahame has been referring to, to those who work within it and those who volunteer to it, but indeed the specific issue that both Christine Grahame and Malcolm Chisholm commented on. I should declare a member of a credit union, the castle credit union, that was originally Craig Miller. It serves both its area and now the enlarged area, as it has seen the benefit of getting in a greater share and greater capital and membership. Again, I think that there is thanks owed to two aspects and two sections there. First of all, there is the thanks that go to those involved in credit unions, per se, but equally to those who volunteer and the specific mention made towards the churches. Sometimes, in debates in this chamber, people can view with some skepticism those who volunteer from the faith communities. I share with Christine Grahame's view that whether people volunteer from the secular or indeed the faith aspects of our society, we should welcome those who give and those who contribute. Indeed, as we face another swath of churches and closing in my constituency and elsewhere, we may very well rue the day that the opportunities that were offered in various communities, not simply by the church building but by the church hall and those who participated in it, will be lost to our communities. However, there are two particular aspects that I want to comment on. First of all, the good work that is done by credit unions operates often in areas where there are no banking opportunities. Craig Miller is a clear example. It is not the size that the community once was. To be fair, there once was a TSB bank located there, but now there are no banking opportunities. The same applies in many peripheral and sometimes urban areas in Scotland. Banks go through a raft of closures, as they see. Understandably, people such as myself do internet banking, but the issue of access to funds and access to banks in many areas of deprivation was and remains a significant problem and a significant challenge. It appears to me that the solution is through the use of credit unions, both in Craig Miller and the outreach work that was done and testified to by Christine Grahame and Malcolm Chisholm, seen in places such as Gilmot and myself in my constituency, where access to France is difficult. However, it is also the opportunity that credit unions offer, not simply to deal with austerity and those who are in deprivation and face challenges and cannot get access to finance, because credit unions are not simply for those who are in deprivation or perhaps they lower less well-off aspects of our society. They offer opportunities, which I and others have mentioned, to take up. However, in particular, I would like to put on record the good work that is done by the police credit union, which touches on the points made by Malcolm Chisholm. Credit unions are there for all if it can be done when people sign up for the police and this is what happens. Members are encouraged when they join the police service to join the police credit union. It can be of benefit to them. Young men or women may find themselves posted to a police station that is distant from where they live. They may have to buy a car. It may be that the best way to obtain that vehicle to be able to carry out their service and their work would be through the police credit union, so, yes, it is an opportunity to address austerity. However, it is also something that should be done as a matter of course. Whether you are on MSP, whether you are in the public sector or whether you are in the private sector, credit unions have so much to offer, not simply in Pennycook but throughout the whole of Scotland. Thank you very much, and I now call on Cameron Buchanan to be followed by John Wilson. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I would like to start by saying that I too commend Capital Credit Union of starting an outpost in Pennycook, North Kirk, and welcome Ms Graham's motion, particularly as I'm for once agreeing with her. Access to credit at reasonable rates can be so important to many people and responsible provision of it can make such a difference. I know that it's particularly true where credit unions have local communities' interests at heart, and at risk of repeating everybody what everybody else has said, we've all heard the horror stories about payday lenders and the huge rates that they can charge. Now, people get trapped into this. Credit unions send out a much-needed message that this is not the only option. Furthermore, I hope we can all applaud the efforts of the Church of Scotland and the Episcopalian Church in working to make this outpost a reality. Credit unions, such as the new branch at Pennycook, North Kirk, pay an important role in Scotland with over 300,000 members nationwide. This large figure translates into about one in every 20 Scots. As well as in Pennycook, credit unions exist across the countries you've heard in North Edinburgh Credit Union and the first Scottish University Credit Union. There are many others. The importance of their role is actually magnified considerably by the comparison with payday lenders. These companies, which have been known to charge over 5,000% APR, have led many people into financial difficulties unwittingly and unwillingly, and they're very, very difficult to get out of. Indeed, the Citizens Advice Bureau in Scotland report that they deal with over 100 cases involving payday loans every single week. A crucial point here, I feel, is that it is far better and easier to deal with financial difficulties by avoiding escalating debt in the first place. However, the solution there is not simply to ban loans, but rather to make them more affordable. An outright ban on payday lending would not be a useful intervention, rather overcoming them competitively by undercutting them on interest rates that is practical and a sustainable solution. This, thankfully, is where the credit unions have stepped in and encouraging people to save, which is the key word, as has already been mentioned. With credit unions restricted by law to lend at a maximum of 26.8% APR, they do indeed undercut payday lenders by some considerable and significant margin. They are beating them in fact at their own game. This, I think, is all good news from members of the public, but it doesn't come easily and relies on volunteers to do an awful lot of the work. We should, of course, all recognise the amount of effort and time invested by various people in credit unions, both specifically at Penicook North Kirk and in the wider sector. In Penicook, the new branch will be located at Rent Free in Penicook North Kirk, furnished by the Lothian Presbytery and staffed by Church volunteers from the Church, St Mungos and St James Aless, all of whom have been fully trained by capital. This shows just how much has been freely given in order to operate the credit union and all involved should be applauded loudly. It appears that without this level of voluntary contribution such credit unions would not be able to offer the relatively low rates of interest that they can at the moment. Since being able to undercut payday lenders on interest rates is central to outmoving them as lenders, we cannot overstate the importance of these voluntary contributors. It would appear that there's a lesson here when we have faced with some operators, in this case payday lenders of course, that they are not acting in the consumer's best interests. The solution in these cases, in this case, may not be a severe government legislation against them, but rather a private or third sector initiatives to outcompete them. The demand of supply can be moved to responsible suppliers rather than outlawed altogether. According to Presiding Officer, I hope that the launching of a capital credit union outpost at Pennycourt North Kirk can be commended by us all. The huge amount of time and effort put in by the local volunteers will enable the outpost to compete with payday lenders and in doing so provide a great service to local community. Their example is one that has demonstrated how communities can work together to deliver local services, as well as highlighting how the problems arising from questionable lenders can be overcome by outcompeting rather than outlawing them. Thank you. Thank you very much. I now call on John Wilson after which he will move to the closing speech from the minister. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I get off my congratulations to Christine Grahame for moving this member's debate tonight? I think that, as others have said, it's a very timely debate in relation to the credit union movement, as well as the time of year coming up to Christmas, which I'll expand on later. We almost forget the role that Church of Scotland played at the General Assembly in 2010 when it actually established the special commission on the purpose of economic activity, which resulted in the report that was produced in 2012, commissioned by Professor Charles Munn, who clearly identified that the Church could play a role in promoting greater economic activity within communities. Some of the suggestions made by Professor Munn we clearly see in the motion tonight, because it's quite clearly outlined that the Church had resources, both in people and facilities, that it should be offering to credit unions and other community organisations to ensure that it could promote the credit union movement and greater economic activity in the areas in which it had a presence. I'm glad to see that, in terms of the Penicook area, the Church members and the Churches have taken that on board and taken that to heart. Hopefully, we will see that type of development taking place throughout Scotland, that other Churches will get involved and will carry out the good work that was suggested firstly by Professor Munn. The examples that I wanted to allude to, Presiding Officer, is that we talk about payday lenders, and we talk about online payday lenders where the 278 per cent APR, or as Christine Grahame mentioned herself, longer, which promotes one at 1,538 per cent APR. What we forget is some of the high street stores that offer goods at double the value. I took two examples this afternoon. A Playstation 4 in one high street store, if you buy it on an average store you'd get it for £400, and a particular high street store is £636, and they claim an APR of 94.7 per cent, but the total price paid for something that you could buy for £400 is £1,300. That's three times more than what you could purchase if you were buying it cash. A Xbox One console with a game, approximately £370, the same high street store selling at £738.87, with the 94.7 per cent APR total payable £1,508. Those are the types of things that are happening in many communities throughout Scotland where parents are under pressure to buy the latest games or the latest consoles and people are feeding off that deprivation. They are feeding off those individuals that are trying to deliver and they are making profit out of that. The issue for us all we have to bear in mind is that we want to see a fairer society. Credit unions aren't, as many have described, the poor man's bank. I think that Kenny McCaskill quite rightly outlined that some of the most successful credit unions are the ones that can draw down the salaries that the staff contribute to those who are now offering mortgages to their members. The reality is that we need to make sure that credit unions have a balance of those who are involved and that they can actually get people actively involved across society. The only dissenting note that I would make is that, while I welcome capital credit unions move out to peripheral areas and expanding, I wish that they would speak to the existing credit unions in those areas that they are expanding to. I received an email two weeks ago from a credit union who had more or less raised a concern that the capital credit union because of the size and the savings that it has can actually undercut some of the smaller existing credit unions. I would make the plea speak to the existing credit unions in an area. If there is no existing credit union there, by all means, go on and establish a credit union outpost, but clearly consult with, discuss with and involve existing credit unions in areas. Lastly, I welcome the work that has been done by the Scottish Government in the past, particularly 12 days of debt mis-campaign, this time last year. I look forward to the work that is going to be taken forward by the Scottish Government in the future to not only promote but to enhance the role of credit unions in society today. I would also like to thank Christine Grahame for securing the debate on this issue of credit unions, which is something that we all agree is very important. I would also like to express my thanks and congratulations to everyone who has invested their time and energy in making the new capital credit union outpost in Penicook a reality. I am delighted to see how actively engaged the church is with the credit union movement and to see that they are working together like this to help their communities. I am sure that I speak for everyone in the chamber when I say that I hope that the Penicook pilot will be a resounding success and that we will see similar partnerships rolled out elsewhere. All across the country there are people interested in working together to bring ethical, affordable financial services and products into the heart of their communities. We should all do what we can to bring people together and support them in their endeavours. It does not need to be churches. Any organisation or group with space and a willing group of volunteers could develop similar partnerships. The Scottish Government's support for the Penicook pilot forms part of our wider work to promote credit unions. That work recognises the significant contribution that credit unions make to the financial landscape in Scotland, providing financial services and products to a wide range of customers, often the most financially vulnerable or excluded. I think that Malcolm Chisholm and Kenny MacAskill and now John Wilson have made the point that credit unions are not just and exclusively for those on low incomes. They absolutely understand that they need to have people from across society in their membership. Very often it is the people on the low income who are bearing the brunt of changes to the welfare system and no increase in their income. Credit unions can play a role here too. Some credit unions are actively delivering new services to help those affected by welfare changes and I welcome that. In my own area I know that the First Alliance credit union has a relationship with the six housing associations in the area and those in the housing association have been encouraged to join the local credit union, and that is a very good move. As part of the Scottish Government's support, we have been working with the private and public sector to raise awareness of the benefits of credit union membership. We have heard very much from all of the speakers tonight just how the benefits are of being the member of a credit union. In particular, we have been encouraging the take-up of payroll deduction schemes, which Malcolm Chisholm talked about, including for Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament employees. We have also been working closely with schools to improve financial education and to promote credit unions as a vital means to save. There has been significant activity to promote credit unions such as was mentioned by John Wilson, the accountant in bankruptcy's 12 days of debt mass campaign last year. I am sure that we all share the concern and reports of spiralling personal debt as a result of high-cost loans. The Scottish Government does not have the power to regulate in this area, which is something that I would very much like to see change. Until that day comes, I want to assure you that we are doing everything that we can to bring about the changes that we can so far as devolved legislation allows. The Scottish Government has been pressing for a cap in payday loans. I was thinking about preparing for this debate tonight. My first member's debate in this chamber as a backbencher in March 2012 was about payday loans, and one of the things that I called for then was to cap the interest in payday loans. We now see a cap being introduced in January, but I think that the action is too little and too late. Like Malcolm Chisholm, I agree that the proposed cap is still too high. Fergus Ewing, the Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism, will continue to urge the financial services to look at this again. We are pleased to see that the payday lending industry has been subjected to better and greater regulation, but more work is needed. Link to our work to promote credit unions last week, my colleague Fergus Ewing launched the new financial health service for Scotland website. The website aims to help people to build their financial resilience and to help to prevent repeated debt problems. It brings together information, including debt advice, employability and access to ethical and affordable lending such as credit unions. The aim is to provide a central hub that allows people to find trustworthy organisations in one place to help them with their financial queries or difficulties. To discuss what more we can do to promote credit unions, the Scottish Government has set up a credit union working group chaired by Fergus Ewing. The group is looking at ways to ensure that we have a secure, thriving and sustainable credit union sector in Scotland, that credit unions have a wide and varied customer base and that financial vulnerable are supported by having alternatives to high-cost lending. Again, I was looking back at what I said in 2012 and at that time I said that I would like to see credit unions as being the first resort on the high street for saving and affordable borrowing. That is what we should be aiming for, the first port of call. The working group's first meeting was held on 9 October and the group will meet again early in the new year and has already highlighted a range of areas that we can take forward. For example, encouraging employers to link with credit unions and to encourage save as you earn, and I think that all members ask for that. Today's debate has highlighted the vital role that credit unions can play and do play and that the PENICUT outpost is a great example that shows the desire within our communities for people to come together, work together and make a difference to people and their communities.