 Welcome everybody here back to Segal Talks at the Martini Segal Theater Center, the Graduate Center CUNY here in Manhattan. And it's been a complicated time, of course, for many, many weeks and months, things are becoming even more complex. Shootings on the streets, riots, for very good reasons. The racial tensions, the unsolved problems of this society are becoming openly visible, more than before, they were always there. And coronavirus really served as a microscope that lets us observe what we do. It's Richard Schekner compared it to a nuclear reactor that burned out, the roof is open and now we see often this horror, what is happening over 100,000 deaths. One out of four American out of work, official jobs, this is an incredible numbers. And so things are out of joint and artists, as always, over centuries have been hit hardest first in such a upheaval in society. That's why art is significant. It detects early on what is happening, how reality is outside. Often we do not really see right away, but artists are able to see it. They are often foreshadowing in their work, anticipating what might be coming in the histories of freedom and the fight for freedom and the history of liberties. Art has been on the right side, has made an enormous contribution to know that life and ideas are up for discussion, that you can view with things from different sides, that the literal interpretation often is deadly and that there are higher laws. And we have to listen to, as Antigone taught us earlier in one of the oldest plays of mankind, that there are laws of the moment, but there are also eternal laws, laws of human significance of mankind. And that is what she did when she followed her own voice and not the political rules. And we have been talking to many, many, many artists now in over nine weeks, many great artists all around the world from all continents. And today it is our privilege to have with us a speaker from Hong Kong, Hoi Fai Vu. And we are happy to have him here, Carol Martin also said, you know, this is one of the artists you really, really should talk to and should talk about. And so we're hearing now from a second time from Hong Kong. I don't see Fai at the moment on the screen, but maybe he is reconnecting. He's an artistic director of the Pence Theater in Hong Kong. He's a very significant member of the Hong Kong theater scene over decades. And he is deeply involved in the arts development, art management of the scene has received many, many, many awards and as a director also he has put his ideas on stages and Bogart said in the talk this week when she said, you know, we see how a brain is on stage and on inaction thoughts that become actions and it's an important form of participating in life instead of writing it on a paper or painting a painting it's thought that develops in front of our eyes we look at it the distance between the things that reflect on us so Fai, thank you so much for joining us. Sorry about my long introduction and but where are you right now and what time is it? Well, I'm in my office in the studio of my theater company and it's about midnight we are 12 hours ahead of your time. So just a new day started in Hong Kong. Yes. So tell us a bit what's going on. Of course, big news we come I come to that later of things but what is the situation in Hong Kong at the moment when it comes to Corona. Well, in terms of corner is a is better in fact we we still have some cases but they are all imported cases and local cases we there have been for two weeks we don't have local cases. So it seems it seems getting better now and everything is going to resume. But unfortunately, yeah theater is not well, I think hopefully by the end of June, we can have live audience, but yeah, not not to meet June. And unfortunately, I originally I scheduled a production to be performed in from 12 to 14 for June. And just last week just a few days ago. Well, we were informed that the production can't have what the theater allow us to get in the theater to do rehearsals, but they were because the theater is a control control by the government and the government orders that that we can have live audience. It's a very impact quite ridiculous situation that we can go into the theater only for rehearsals, but we can have live audience. Yeah. So, at the moment you don't have restrictions you can go out on the street you do you have to wear a mask. Restaurants. Yes, they have certain restrictions like in the restaurants only eight. Well, at each table can only serve eight people. But somehow is because the situation seems getting better so is well getting loosened now. One month ago is still very straight. It means that there will some some offices will go into the restaurants and check and if they are not stick to the rules they will issue warnings or yeah even fine. But now is well because it seems everything is getting getting back to normal. So, yeah. So I think we all think Hong Kong, Taiwan, especially Singapore also South Korea, they did fast measures had a very good system in place after the SARS virus. So did you felt in a way your government in that in that situation when it came to Corona it that worked well and everybody followed. I won't say I won't say the government works very well. It's all because of the order citizen speak because SARS the memory, although it's already 17 years ago, but it's still very vivid in our mind, so that we did we did learn hard lessons from that. And so everyone is in Hong Kong we have. Well, we are quite disciplined ourselves. So, everybody will wear a mask quite as soon as there seems to be there was an outbreak. So, yes, I think it is because the situation is getting control so soon. I think because people are very well disciplined and sometimes a bit over discipline. But yeah, well, so that's why we react. The situation is under control. Yes, the government has done. All right, I won't say this is super super good, but of course not too bad, but I will give the credit to our Hong Kong people, not the government. And of course you have the tradition of wearing a mask. It's not as foreign as to Europe or to North America, where we don't have that experience and where we always saw people are wearing masks because they are afraid to get infected but actually people were wearing masks because they felt they had an infection, a cough, a virus and they did not want to share it. And so you were ahead of us in that way and politicians haven't been paying attention, of course, to the health crisis is catastrophic in the US and also many other countries of Mexico, Brazil, Spain, but I think we also, we as people, we ourselves perhaps haven't been as careful and no longer were thinking about the threats. So I think you guys were... I think it's because we sort of have different mindsets, I think in Hong Kong, because people say that you are, you view wearing a mask as well, only a patient will, well only a person who has sickness will wear a mask, but in Hong Kong we were after SARS, especially after SARS, we don't view it this way. We think that is a kind of protection. So wearing a mask does not mean that you have caught the illness. So I think two different types of mindset, yeah. So how is it for theater artists? Are you getting support from your country, from your communities, from your cities? Well, the government did make some allowance for us, but it's very minimal. For example, like, I think last month they had, they gave a plan that you can apply for some funding, but the maximum amount is only, well, 7,500 Hong Kong dollars. And well, in terms of Hong Kong living standard is very, very minimal, I would say. Yeah, so how much is it compared to US dollars? 7,000, is around 1,000. US dollars? Yes. It's like a one-time payment. It's a one-time payment, but it's supposed to last to help you through several months. Yeah, it's not possible. And now societies have to show their flags and see where the support for the arts that are so often written. On those flags, but now they really have to show them. How is it for your company? So what are your members doing? Are they at home? Are they working? Will they be rehearsing for that show where you say, we can do it, but we have no audience? How are they doing? Well, I think in February and March when the situation was really severe, we had to stop even rehearsals. But now after, I think in starting from April, we slowly getting back our pace. And because we assume things are getting better and it seems really things are getting better. So, well, to put on a stage show, we need time to rehearse. So we can, when we project that in July or even in June, we can really stage a production. We had to start rehearsal because as I said, our coming production is in mid-June, so I had to start rehearsal in April. And yes, in the beginning of, in the beginning phase when we had rehearsal, all the actors have to wear masks and it's a bit difficult for the director to see, to give comments when all the actors are wearing masks. But we did have to cancel or postpone some shows. We had a performance in February and then that has to be postponed to July now. And well, hopefully it will be done in July. It can be done in July. And then we had another stage reading performances in March. And then we had to cancel that and then at first we think we can do it in April. But then I think around the end of March, we were hit by the second one of the virus. So we had to stop the, we have to reschedule that again. And later, I had to reschedule that to May, but then it was still impossible to do it in the theatre. So I had to change it into a live broadcast on the internet. Yes. But the problem is we, there was one play I want to do in the stage reading section that is indecent. Paula Vogels indecent. I think you know that play, right? Yes. He came to the Segal Center with an evening with her. Great. So at first as I said, we had to reschedule it from March to April and then to May. And then I decided to live broadcast it. But then I got the reply from Paula's agent that we can't do it through live broadcasts because the copyright has been sold to a company. You know, the stage version, the Hollywood, the Broadway version has been sold and it's now broadcast on the internet. So Paula can't give me the rights to live broadcast it. So I have to do it live. And so, and then at first I was really, really worried because the situation in Hong Kong is like that we, well, that's more commonly like as we don't have regular actors. So every time we have to get the actors project by project. So when, when, so the cars that was involved in the stage version of indecent, they, I was afraid that they had already commit other things in, for example, in June, in July. I was afraid that I can't really find the time to, to do it. But luckily I finally I find the time to do it in next week, next weekend in my own studio. So I don't, yes, I can still do the play. So you're going to present a show in your own studio life. Very small number of audiences. Yes, very small number. How many people will come? Will people wear masks, actors, audiences? The audience, we will require the audience to wear masks. And but the actors won't wear masks. Because as I said, now the situation is getting better. How many people will come in your studio because this might be a solution, you know, that people go to their living rooms that rehearsal studios, small intimate places. How many people will you let in? Only 10. 10 people. And how many actors will be involved? Seven actors. Yes. So it's almost equal to the number of the audience. Yes. It's interesting and makes something also unique and special. Yes, it's only, well, well, I think the play in decent teaches me that we, we need to do it even in times of difficulty. Yes. Yeah. So, well, anyway, I'm glad that we can find a solution to it. Yes. What is the philosophy of you as a theater maker and your company? Why do you do theater? What is your work all about? Well, now my theater company, we have sort of a mission that we are within the stage, but we keep an eye on the society. And it means that we want to do some productions that will encourage the audience to, when they walk out of the theater, when they have seen our performances, they will think about some issues we in the play in the production. And that issue should be related to our everyday life, should be related to the society. So for example in, and that's why I think a few years ago we have to start to focus on documentary theater. Although that's, that's not, not the only thing we will do, but documentary theater is a, is a major thing in my theater company. We have done some translated documentary theater works like learning me project growth in decency and yes, translated documentary theater plays like that. And we have also done some original documentary theater works like 1960s, 1967. That's the year, a very important year in Hong Kong history, when there was a big riot happening in Hong Kong. And it lasts for almost half a year, yeah, from mid 67 to the beginning of 68. And that was like a taboo in Hong Kong history, because that is the, the riot was, the riot start, because the, you know, in the 60s, Hong Kong was very corrupted. And all the, we, we don't have the ICAC, I mean the department that fight against the corruption with, we don't have that department in that time. So the police force was very, the police force, the fire, the government are very corrupted and the situation, especially the lower class in Hong Kong are very, the poor people are really poor to the situation. So, there was a lot of anger and discontent in, in, in the general public. So, in, so in 1967 there was a seat in a protest by a factory by some factory workers because the factory boss has had, has imposed some very strict harsh conditions on the workers. And the workers try to fight for a better, well, working conditions. So, in the beginning is a sit in, and then the leftist in Hong Kong, you know, the Communist Party in Hong Kong, intervened and try to back up the workers. And then, and then the police, well, because the police took the side of the factory boss, and then they cracked down on the workers. So it'd be so the police and the Communist Party clashed and then things become escalate. And up to a point where I just give you some figures that in that half a year, nearly more than 8,000 bombs were placed in Hong Kong. Wow. And, well, of course, no, not all of them are real bombs, but more than 1000 are real bombs, and some are fake bombs, but just these figures will give you a picture how, how extensive and how big the scope is. So, as I said, it was a taboo when I, when I grew up in Hong Kong, because you know, as I said, it's a, it's because of the corruption of the British government at that time, the British colonial government. But so before 1997, the British government did not want to talk about it, because it's, as I said, it's not because they were corrupted. And then after 1997, the left party, the Communist Party, didn't want to talk about it either, because at the end, you know, it's about how the riot died down. It's because at the, towards the, towards the end of 1967, when they, when the lefty, when the leftists start to place bombs on the streets, you know, people's minds, well, people's sympathy towards the leftists have vanished. So the, the general, the general public becomes think, well, they start to think that, well, is, is, is not good yet to use such violence. And in fact, some, some innocent people were killed by the bombs. And so people's attitude towards the, the leftists have changed. And it, I say that you have left a scar on the mind of general Hong Kong public. So starting from sixties, I think when, when I grew up, we had some, we have already some, we have already had negative feelings towards the Communist Party, especially after, after this and also after so much information about, for example, the racial revolution and the stuff like that we, we start to learn about that. So we have some fear already in our mind. So, so after 1960s, 1997, the new Hong Kong government backed up by the Mainland China Communist Party. They didn't want to talk about this history either. And so that's why I say it is a, it's a taboo in Hong Kong history. So I think documentary theater and when I learned, when I learned about this particular form, I think I was attracted by the, because I think it, it, it, it created a bridge between the society and theater. So, and I think it is a good way to find out what is the truth in a particular, well, period of the history, especially something about like 1967 when, you know, different sides have different takes on, on this particular instance. So, in 2014, I made this documentary theater work in 1967. Yeah, so I think it gave you an idea of what I'm doing. Mm hmm. So this documentary theater or as Carol Martin wrote about or coined, you know, the seat of the real. Yes, yes, you feel this is a tool that is working in Hong Kong. Yes, at least for me. Yeah, I think it helps me to, to understand the situation in Hong Kong, especially now when the situation is so, so fast changing, you know, and and when I look at the, of course, I also got some encouragement from the audience that, for example, like 1967, when I look at the questionnaires by the audience, they gave me a very positive feedback that it helps them to understand this important part of history in Hong Kong, because it's not what is mentioned in the Hong Kong text book, but there's only a few lines about it. And it didn't say much. And so, yes, and I think, as I said, is, is, but this history really affects how we view how we look at the Communist Party, how we look at the leftist in Hong Kong nowadays. And in fact, the, the reason why I did this play, one of the reasons why I did this play was because of this, you know, when I did it in 2014, just before the Umbrella Movement, I think you've heard of the Umbrella Movement. Of course. Yeah. Yes. And I, I, well, you know, the Umbrella Movement, I would say it's not, of course, it happened in, maybe say a few words for our listeners who might not know. Oh, yes. It's, it's, well, it's in around, it happened in, in September 2014 when, you know, people in Hong Kong, we want universal suffrage. We want our, yes, we want out to, we hope that we can have a vote to, to get our own legislative council members and also our own chief executive. So, some people start to think that we, we, we can do a sit-in in, you know, in, in central, that's the main economic and political center of Hong Kong, the central equality. And then people want to do a sit-in and, well, a bomb violence protest. And yes, but you know, the tough moment that this happened. So, they, they, they take, they want to take the protest, protest us away. And then people start to fight and then at that time people start to use Umbrella to, yeah, to fight against the pepper bullets and also the tear gas. And so it becomes a symbol for, for that movement. You can say revolution. I think there's a very symbolic picture in, in the times when in the cover of the times. Yeah, when a protestor, protestor holding an umbrella amid the tear gas. So that's why that's the umbrella movement. You know, we umbrella movement happened in, in, in September, in one day, but in fact it's, it's, it, it, it did not just happen in one day. It's, it's in fact an accumulation of the audit discontent audit is all the anger of Hong Kong people against the, against the government for 20 years after, after the handover after the 1997. It's an explosion at that time. And I think a few years before the umbrella movement when I, people have, have started to talk about that. Well, the situation in Hong Kong was like the eve of the situation in 1967 before the riot. So people start to compare the two things, the white in 1967 and the, the, the coming, well, the coming protest of the umbrella movement. So I was born after the, I was born after the 67 white. So I was wondering, what's the similar similarity between the two, what's the difference between the two. So I really want to find out, I want to find out the answer to this question. And I think the best way to find out the answer is to talk to people who have really been through that period. So I start to talk to some, you know, naftis who were students at who were students and then who were thrown in, who were thrown into prison in 1967. And then I talked to some, well, we tied policemen. And then I talked to some scholars about, well, the scholars on this particular subject. And, and of course, the general Hong Kong public. And yeah, try to put together all their views on this history. And I think it helps me at least help it helps me to, to get a clear idea of what's happening at that time. And why we, why, why we have this feeling or this fear towards the mainland China in this particular time. Yeah, so yes, so I think I think it helps and I continue to do this thing in Hong Kong. So it's a deep engagement with history. I mean the word story of course isn't history in itself. So but your search for truth is then in the documents it's in interviewing and creating a version on stage that shows your your view of history that is not the official one. And do you feel that your theater work and this work of your colleagues in Hong Kong in theater where they are hard and of these fight against injustice fight against in a way of oppression or taking away liberties. Is there a connection or do you feel it's an isolated theater companies are a bit more isolated and people don't come or it's not as significant hours. How is theater what's the role of theater in Hong Kong. I think in general in Hong Kong the theater, my colleagues we are all what you know I don't want this as over as a simple simplification of the situation but you know in Hong Kong we, we have this label now yellow and blue. I don't know, you know, well that's like the yellow means the liberal and then the blue means the conservative and the pro establishment that blue. But to put it things in a simple way I think that general in general my colleagues are all yellow, I would say. Yeah, we, I think we all understand that without freedom without. Yeah, an open environment theater won't survive and won't thrive. So, we were especially nowadays we, I think that they were starting from last year we have easy comments. announcement. The commission of our situation of our stand against, you know, the, against the government's suppression of Hong Kong's protesters so. In, in terms of our production or in, or in terms of our performance in terms of our styles we have a variety of styles. Documentary theater is my, is my take and of course there are some other colleagues who are also interested in this form but we, we try to tackle or we try to tackle the situation in different ways, I would say. So were you participants versus theaters in participating in the demonstrations that which we all looked at it went around the world and I think the world's eye over the world that's perhaps closer to the world of liberties and freedom is very concerned about Hong Kong and were you participating theater artists participating in the demonstrations. Yes, of course. Yes, you know, as I said they were they have been starting from it's already a year. Yes, and I think more or less all of us have been to more than one demonstrations, you know. You know, we have social media moves of the time Facebook is quite popular in Hong Kong. And every time when there was a demonstration by Facebook has been was was washed by my colleagues because everyone was giving some message and asking people to come out and sharing some photos in during the the demonstration during the demonstration. So it's office that we were we, everyone of us has been to at least one of these demonstrations and So every theater artist smelled the tear gas ran away and and put in a way also there they are there their life and well I think we have at least one or two this kind of experience. Yes, and yeah, it's a it's a sad situation, but that's the that's the truth, I would say. And I know some of our colleagues were in fact, a West. One of my actors in the production last year was a West and what happened to him. He was in one of the demonstrations and and then he Well, of course I can't say much but I was I wasn't in that situation and but I don't think he's a violent type of people. So I think he just went away and then he was and then he didn't want fast enough and then he was caught by the police and then I know he was really charged of being involved in the riot. You know, so yes, yes, there's I've heard of some, not at least not one not not not just one incident. Yes. So, well, he said So, do you see your theater as an as a work of activism or political work during those riots would continue to do theater we say we pause this and we participate in the movement on the streets what what role do you think the theater should play in such times. Um, I think that there have been times that we will especially during last year there have been times when we really had to stop rehearsals, because for example like we think we should go on street to participate in the demonstration instead of rehearsing in the studio. And there have been several times like this, or during rehearsals and then we found that we heard that there was a series clash between the protesters and the police. It's just the our studio. So I think we better evacuate and so there have been situations like this. But I think I will try to look at the things in various ways I think is I would say I'm, I'm, I'm I'm not using the theater to provoke the particular person or particular government body. Of course, I'm not using theater to please them. Either. And I think to me theater is a place for me to think. And I would also like to use theater to invite the audience to share my thinking and then to think with me. And then we try to find some answers to a particular questions. I think that's the role of theater to me and I am I don't think is what I don't think is is that what the major function or at least to me I don't like my theater to to to be a tool to point a finger on a particular person or a particular body. And Yes, so so I think they are because it's very dangerous if you use theater to just to to promote your own ideology or or your own statement. Then, you know, the the tyranny that the totalitarian government will use theater in this way. So it's a very dangerous position to take, I would say. I want to have my theater as a place to to invite the invite the audience to think together. Yes. Hmm, it's a beautiful image that we have the audience come to the theater to sing together with you in that moment. When you and how how how is it in like freedom of speech. The new maybe we should go to this new announcement that came from China where which is also so big on the headlines here and about new laws and that will supersede lots by far what Hong Kong protesters were protesting against. Do you feel this will be a new phase of taking away liberties your liberties as a theater maker will you be able to do your work how you want to do it. I think it's definitely changing. But the the the set situation in Hong Kong is that most of the resources in the center were controlled by the government. For example, like all the theater nearly 80 to 90% of theater of theater venues were controlled by the government. So as I said, for example, like in this situation, when as I said by by I have a play coming in mid June in the next two weeks and we we can't with the situation seems better and we a week ago I was still hoping that we can really do it in the theater and have live audience in the theater. But then the government said, No, we you can't have live audience. Then we have to there's no way we can do because the theater was controlled by the government. So I think that's the set situation. It was politically motivated that they said you can't do it is a political decision. Some people say this because my play is going up that the play I'm going to put on is called 2047 multiply eight. It means that I in fact it's already I planned it a year or two ago. I invite eight playwrights, some are more senior, some are fresher and I invite them to white play on white short play about 2047 Hong Kong. What they project When those 50 years are over supposedly freedom. Yes, and then yes, and then I put to get to all the eight short plays together in one night and so people so that's why in fact I have some I have heard some people saying that well was it a kind of censorship that they try to stop you putting this on stage and well I I try to think it's not I try to think it's not yes I I but I was I hope that is our best intention of the government to really be very cautious about the situation so not open the public venue in rush way and I try to think in this way yes because you know the theater situation in Hong Kong I won't say the theater is not that popular as the film industry you know we have compared to the total amount of population we have quite a small number of regular audience in the theater and so I always think that is I don't know whether it is lucky or not but we because we only entertain a small number of audience so that the government won't bother to mess with us you know so up till now theater companies like us can still survive for example like last year I have done a play another documentary play about a very famous politician in Hong Kong that's called his nickname is long hair and he was a famous politician and he was a famous anti anti-expletive establishment politician and he will well he will for example when he was a legislative council member he will throw things in the meetings and of course it is only a kind of gesture and when I got to know him he is not a very gentle person he is not a violent person but it is only a gesture to attract people's attention and so he was famous for this kind of violent behavior in the legislative council and that production was we got subsidy from the government you know the laser and cultural services department that is the major department in the government which is responsible for the us or theater or performing us related things we got subsidy from them but now if I submit this application now I am really not sure I can get subsidy so well the situation is is not optimistic yeah that's interesting it is an economic censorship as we hear from Hungary you can do the festival but we won't give you any money so there is of course a political agenda behind it we heard from our colleagues we were protesting he said 400 people he thinks intentionally police was instructed to frighten people and people were demanding changes a million women came out on the streets and he says 5 days later Covid came and the government shut everything down the same police were shooting as us now pretends to protect us but he says very clearly the same the Covid crisis was used also to silence the voices what is your impression of this new legislative initiative from China that was announced a few days ago which seems to be openly against the agreement with the UK for the 50 years will the Covid sanctions be reimposed will people go back on the street what is your evaluation people have gone back on the streets just a few days ago last Sunday there was a big protest on the streets and more than 300 people were arrested so yes airports were occupied that much larger context and the demonstrations now what do you think will happen I think the clash will escalate especially when the one year anniversary of the 12th of June is coming last year on 12th of June people were people went into the legislative council the protestors there was a major significant date in the history of this protest so I think when in view of this this day is coming I think the violence will only escalate and until upon that people will die and I think we don't want to see this thing happen but that's the outcome possible outcome and when people die in one way people will be silenced of course but the anger will be there forever and yes just like the June 4th in Beijing more than 30 years ago well in fact when this movement start and escalate last year people have started to compare this to the June 4th movement in Beijing for example in November when there was a big clash between the protestors and the police in the universities in Hong Kong in the two universities the Chinese university of Hong Kong and one is in the polytechnic university and the comparison between June 4th and Hong Kong situation was very comparable and well we no one would want to see this thing happen but it seems this is a no return way so you think a point where you could return has been crossed and what will you do as a theater artist if this continues if the clashes get more violent what will you do what should a theater artist do in that situation what are you thinking about how to react we have to make our stand very clear and so as I said we have colleagues have given kindness, announcement or declamation on our stand and I think we have all signed a lot of this kind of declamation and I think what we can do as a not just as a theater artist but just as a human being I think the best we can do is try to I think life is more important somehow in a way to really persuade people not to sacrifice so easily I think sacrifice in a meaningful way is good but I think it's it's no point in sacrifice in this meaningless sacrifice I would say yes and I think that there will be some way to to overturn the situation but maybe not upon us it may for upon the well if I if I if I have this ability to overturn the situation I won't be here but I think we as a theater artist like what in decent have taught us we have to one of the major things we can do is to keep the spirits going on like in decency you know I think the most loving touching moment is at the body and towards the end of the play when you know the two girls the two characters the two lesbian lesbian characters were escaping from the line in the concentration camp in the mind of you know the stage manager and I think to keep this spirit going on to to to try to keep it not dying I think that's one of our major responsibilities yes the theater has to be on the side of life and then we also have to be pragmatic and we have to be we can be and we have to be a torch in darkness I would say a candle or torch in darkness and that's what we can do yes yes what motivated you looking going back for your own life in your own history when you said I am going to do theater what was the moment when did that happen you were born in Hong Kong yes I was born in Hong Kong in this city where you live now and you say my contribution to this community I will be theater my theater work through theater of the real of the documents telling the truth looking for the truth what made you do that I think in the beginning it was when I was studying in the secondary school I was in a boy school and we didn't have a drama club at the time but one day I was in a Catholic school and one day because it's a kind of anniversary the school's anniversary and one of the teachers want to put on a drama about a saint in a Catholic saint and he's written a play about this real person and then as I said we didn't have a drama club at that time but I was involved in some public speaking contest and or debate or debate contest so the teacher thinks oh you you won't be shy from being on the stage so that he picked me up to get on the stage to play this main character and of course at that time is when one was young is the kind of attention I got from the teachers from the fellow fellow students made me want to do more drama at that time so and then I was getting into the university and my major at that time was English and my classmates said you are not majoring in English you are majoring in drama because most of the time I spend my time in the drama club instead of in the class so at that time I realised that I was very enough with drama with theatre because I found this kind of opportunity to really work together with a lot of people and in the beginning I tried all the different positions designers, actors and playwrights and stage managers all the different positions and then I realised that my technique is in directing so I enjoy the joy comes from the fact that I am leading a team it's like playing in a football team so you are working together with all these different people and then we are trying to create an artwork and then as a director I can have the luxury of sitting in the audience in the auditorium and feeling the breath of the audience feeling the situation of the audience so it is it gives me the pressure of being like visual artist, I look at my work and it's finished and it's communicating live with the audience so I realised that I like theatre, it's kind of communication so that is interesting so the story of a saint was at the very beginning, what kind of saint was that, do you remember? I think it's I really forgot it's a sing sing sing sing or I forgot it's a male and I really forgot the story well anyway so it's interesting it all starts because of that saying also that connection of theatre to a spiritual life and the origins of theatre are very close to that and that we share these spheres and we interpret words and show them and perform theatre perform magic, that's why theatre also often was forbidden because you did ritualised actions on a stage that have a symbolic meaning like a real one, so what you do is of real real importance and will you find ways to include this experience of that Covid crisis and you also were in confinement, if I understand right you spend time alone, do you feel something changed something happened, will you use something that came out of that time, did it make you a different person? Well definitely that time has helped me to to read all the books, I haven't read for the entire time to read and it gave me a lot of ideas new ideas to make new plays what ideas what are your new ideas well for example like a book called Fetch with Girls is about the situation of the Fetch with Girls in mainland China well this and I read another book the English book is not here but there's another book similar to this it's also about the situation of the factory workers especially the female factory workers in mainland China starting from 90s I think it can be a very good material for musical well you have a factory a fixed scenery and you have a lot of girls and some of the stories in the books are really touching and amazing so I think I'm juggling with the idea of adapting it into a musical that's one thing and another play I have with this one, are you now or have you ever been it's a very old play by Eric Bandy it's a documentary play it's about the you know the investigation of the show business by the American Activities Committee during 1947 to 1956 I'm very interested in that that bit of history in the United States because I think to a lot of people the United States seems to be a very liberal but that the McCarthyism period is a very interesting period for me of course Arthur Miller has written something about it but this play, this documentary play by Eric Bandy well it makes me think of the situation now in Hong Kong I think one day we will have this kind of activities committee maybe Hong Kong activities committee I think we will have something like this one day so we better get prepared time to get prepared so in a way you look at class working class situations to turn focus to society is something we really should look at the conditions of factory workers France did great work Nushkin's very first work the kitchen was about women so this is an important turn next to the other documentaries also yesterday Patricia Cornelio from Australia said I'm so upset and what about these people the minorities, the working class, the race we have to tell these stories and be brutally honest and not try to please us or others and I think your work also goes there and to America that seems to be so easily condemning China what are our own histories and where does that fit in but it is a bit frightening to think that this McCarthy era will come to Hong Kong that there will be blood and death on the streets of Hong Kong that seems inevitable and that as an artist perhaps sometimes artists are like dogs on the highway they disturb the traffic but you run over right away from the cars but they see something that is nature or that is life itself so it's a complicated time for you there and we really think about you and what solutions you found what inspires you, what do you have working in Hong Kong what are the significance to you I would say maybe in terms of documentary theatre Laramie project was my it opens the door to me Laramie project Laramie project of course it opens the door to me I didn't see the production I was informed by a colleague who has seen the production in New York in 2001 and he was amazed by the work particularly amazed by the process of the work and he told me about the process it was the first time I heard about this term documentary theatre because when I was studying in the Hong Kong Academy for performing us I didn't teach documentary theatre it's unheard of this particular term so I was attracted to it because of the Laramie project and right now I would say a lot of different people can inspire me like for example Mino Rao Mino Rao when many political people they have done some interesting work but I would say I would say they helped me to try to think to push myself to think more to always find some new ways to tackle a situation for example after 1967 I tried to because in documentary theatre most of the time you start because there is a particular incident you want to find out the truth about a particular incident like Laramie project there is a murder so you want to find out the truth like 1967 because there is a riot I want to find out what happened so you have a particular incident to that then I think is it a must so I made another two works one is on real estate agents one is about the journalist in Hong Kong so in these two works I didn't have a particular incident I just want to focus on a group a particular group of people so can I make a documentary play just from talking to this particular group of people and yes so I think for example we have many protocols I think it is interesting to see how they think about an issue they will always find some interesting angle to go into to think about an issue I think that's the way I have to learn from them and I can't just copy their method I have to try to put it into my own context so for example what about art in Hong Kong the work I did last year towards the end of last year in December last year and I try to use a little bit of thinking of the immersive theater this very popular term nowadays and try to put the audience into a direct interaction with the cast with the actors somehow so I think that's an interesting take but I think it can't, not every production can use this form and for example another production I'm going to do by the end of next year hopefully if I get a subsidy will be about social workers in Hong Kong I want to talk to the social workers in Hong Kong the reason why I want to talk to them is especially last year in the beginning of this protest the social workers become their role becomes quite prominent even some social workers will really go into the battlefield and then stand between the policemen and the protesters and try to try to soothe the situation of course in the eyes of the policemen they think they are not soothing the situation they are aggravating the situations but there are some really brave social workers who have been doing things like this so I'm interested in talking to them to really know what's in their mind and so I think for this particular production maybe immersive theater may not I'm not sure now, it all depends on the materials but I think it may not be one of the tools I will use so I think this kind of mindset being always in question and challenging yourself is important to an artist do you feel connected in Hong Kong to the global theater world do you feel world pays attention to the work of theater artists in Hong Kong yes, at least for example last year when the protests was really serious and I got emails from people in Australia people in Germany colleagues, artists in Germany artists in Australia who will ask me about my situation in Hong Kong so I think people are especially now when social media is so popular internet was so popular we are still in the spotlight I would say that's really fortunate that's really important for you for people outside Hong Kong to keep an eye on this situation your concern will help so it will be important for the international theater community to stay in contact and be with you maybe for the remedies of this world maybe go to Hong Kong and help you in a situation that is existential as it seems from here your actors on the streets are arrested and the censorship that will not only just look at the actions but in people's minds there are dangerous predictions and I think we should find ways to get engaged maybe invite them and also be there towards the end from your experience and I know we have younger artists but also emerging what do you say how should this time, which for you almost is over should we work use best, what was meaningful for you and what should theater do coming out of this corona crisis and what should the stand be that theater takes wow a big question I think the two things I have talked about during our conversation one is always to think that you can be a candle in the darkness I think this kind of spirit is very important and I think try to ask the audience to think with you is important because especially nowadays when it's so easy to get somehow so cheap to get entertainment to be entertained but I think theater of course theater can be entertainment and theater should be entertaining but I think that should not be the only thing, the only function of theater and so I think to really to ask yourself to be more than entertaining is important that's that's one thing and to challenge yourself always to find some new ways to challenge yourself I think is important and I better not name names but you know there have been some masters I worshiped when I was young some master artists when I look at the textbook it is wow they are really good but when I really have a chance to see their work in the theater maybe the first one, the second one the first few ones I was still thrilled by their works but then after a few I think it seems that they are getting well they are only repeating themselves and it's sad to see these things when an artist couldn't find new ways to couldn't escape, couldn't let himself go out of his own out of his own box so try not to be this kind of artists try to be challenging that's important thank you this is truly significant and everybody really should take it to heart and also coming from you in this moment in between corona and the new political situation where uncertainty is for you it's more of a higher potential for us we are not really used in the western world in the American world of uncertainty if you live in Africa, Palestine in Ukraine you live with this it is new for you to be in the middle to grind the people this is quite something your advice is serious, your work is serious and we admire you for what you do it's a great contribution to world theater, global theater you stand in line of great theater makers from Piscator and on to so many others who have started this work looking for the truth and the way of the documentary of this theater of the real theater is a house, it has many rooms and documentary theater of the real is a significant room perhaps a room that at the moment has answers and approaches in the variations of a remedy protocol as you say that are really good answers or perhaps they even have the better question and I like your idea to say theater is the space where you think together, you don't entertain you don't consume, it's a place where people come and think together so hopefully also our series is about listening and about thinking I think it's something we can do in this time also with our bodies perhaps we all listen a little bit more careful than we normally do so really thank you for taking the time so past midnight past one o'clock and to our audience also really thank you for tuning in after such a long time now I know some come back it's now nine weeks but we also hear that once in a while we talk that's being caught but that makes it makes a difference in the lives and it makes new connections so this makes us of course happy but we feel it is an important duty now for us to listen to support artists give comfort and also really to support and encourage and this is our message to you and and we think of your work in Hong Kong and it represents something very very special so we at the Segal continue again for next week and we have the line-up together it always takes a while to put it in but Monday we have a significant artist from France we have Emmanuel de Merci-Motta who is the director of Théâtre de la Ville and also runs the great and legendary festival D'Autonne and who knows what will happen in the festival D'Autonne we know the festival is cancelled the greatest perhaps the liberation of theater in life and from the scope and Emmanuel will tell us a bit about the situation in France where things also are reopening as we speak theaters, movie theaters and it's a big experiment and we will see what will happen South Korea is now taking step back again so we will see Ralph Pena from New York to talk about his Asian-American theater company a great contribution he has made over decades and now the challenges his community faces and if we have learned anything minority groups have been hit hardest with everything over centuries in countries over decades and now with the corona they are the ones who are on the front lines we had African-American playwrights who said our families getting together on making their wills we don't have money we don't have health insurance our people are the ones who work in the hospitals who are in the service industries who are the delivery drivers and we have no choice and we are the one getting hit and we don't know what will happen Wednesday we hear from Israel and we have Ruth Kenner the great Joshua Sobol Maya Aranya Soor all three of them three generations of Israeli writers who hopefully will help us to get an insight in the complex histories of theater of Israel and also the state now of COVID-19 seem to have been very successful there in that team but you know what is theater what does theater mean at that time so this is important Avraa Sirui from Greece great scholar who also has been at the serial center director also works at the university she will come and tell us about Cyprus and Greece the situation and there were also the histories of migrants and refugees so much more urgent because of the geopolitical location of the country and Ashley Tata from New York City who just did a very beautiful production of work of art I think on on screening where she invented perhaps a message to combine the theater play and the film but it's a play in its life and together with her collaborators they some software encodings they she found a way to save a piece that was supposed perhaps not to go online and not to cancer came out of Bard College but Gideon Lester as we understand Wright said no go on we pay you anyway do what you want and she said I'm going to find a way to do this work and it was a quite astonishing work I think so we're going to hear about that work she's also a student of and Bogart so it's another generation trying to work with the challenges but also is this new medium where we are both on now I remember a thing a hunch and say who said you know we all thought cyberspace isn't real and now it looks like it's one of the real spaces left here where we communicate so thank you all for listening we're coming to the end of this week and we are very concerned also here in America about the situation and what will happen even if the lockdown is over the restrictions are lifted post traumatic stress traumatic stress what will coming what will come out how will the society react it's full of question marks and and and we have to be as you said as that theater art is on the side of life support and understanding and seeing all the different sides of the stories and help people to create meaning in this difficult time thanks to howl around again for hosting us for all these weeks VJ and thea and Travis and the single teams on young and and Andy thank you all listeners you know for for taking time out of your busy lives and for really also listening to our artists it's also it is as I said it is important to know that people care that compassion is out there we all in the same situation so this is an important contribution and we hope that what they say to is also meaningful to you and makes a difference in your life and helps to grapple and understand the situation we am so hope to see you all are here from you on Monday if I all the best with your work I hope the June work will will be done or will work out with the little audience of 10 people I love that you do in your own studio instead of not doing it at all and and so stay tuned stay safe and