 So, welcome everybody to brain club. Tonight is will be discussing challenges and experiences of neurodivergent parents. First, thank you to tonight's sponsor University of Vermont Center on disability and community inclusion. So, just by way of the introduction as we always do our community agreement. So all forms of participation are okay you can have your video on or off and even if it's on we don't expect anything of you we certainly don't expect you to look at the camera or sit still or anything so anything goes and everyone is welcome, especially because a lot a lot of folks are participate with their videos off there maybe little ears listening so we just will keep that in mind, you know, as, as, as, as we're going through the evening. And indicate in any format that you're comfortable with either unmuting and using mouth works or typing in the chat box that ever works for you. And just a word about safety and including affirming all aspects of identity and respecting and protecting one another's access needs, especially as our group has gotten larger. We want to give space for everyone to participate in their own way and of course observation is a completely valid form of participation but for those who do do, you know as an access need, need some some space for processing time and space of entering the conversation. And you are welcome to because of this part of today's brain club will have a prerecorded set of interviews with our panelists. So for about 25 minutes. The video will play and you're welcome will have the I'll be facilitating the chat while that's playing and so you're welcome welcome to use the chat while the video is playing. And last bit, just today is for education purposes only it's not medical events. And for that reason, just note that individual traumatic experiences and of course you know there's lots of traumatic experience associated with becoming a parent. And individual traumatic experiences are best processed in a therapeutic setting outside of brain club. Close captioning is enabled you just need to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of zoom either the lab transcript close captioning icon, or the more dot dot dot, and choose show subtitles or hide subtitles. And speaking of the chat. If you're new to zoom, or just by way of refresher, you're looking for the chat box window the speech bubble to access the chat. Okay, so we're still in May neurodivergent lived experiences. So here we are experiences of neurodivergent parents. And here we go. Parenting is hard whether you're neurodivergent or not parenting is hard for, you know, most people. And for many neurodivergent parents there are some specific additional challenges, and often that we are not prepared for that. We're not expecting no one's talked about this maybe we don't even know that we're neurodivergent. And a lot of people find themselves in chaos. That's a picture of me with my then one month old. That was like the one picture we took of that time of our lives because everyone else was just everybody was screaming most of that time, because it was just so hard in unexpected ways. This picture of me on the left one week before I became a parent. There I am a doctor takes care of babies I thought I knew what I was doing. Yeah, Luna felt otherwise and made it clear in no uncertain terms that I didn't know what I was doing, and she was going to let us know by screaming all of her waking hours to let us know that her little baby access needs were not being met. And the thing is, there's a lot of parents whose access needs are not being met to some of the specific challenges of parenting for neurodivergent people relate to sensory sensitivity. And this is an example and anything I'm going to go through. Many people have no idea that these things are playing a role for them. They just know that they are in chaos they are dysregulated they don't you know just anyway but these are some of the factors. So sensory sensitivity. If for example you have the kind of brain that is really sensitive to loud noises, and all of a sudden you have a screaming baby. Or if you have some, you know, tactile versions and now you're not having space and you, you know, just all of that. There are, you know, maybe someone has established some routine some protective routines that keep people regulated now all of a sudden you're not having access to those. And then executive functioning, you know, if you, if it's hard at baseline to meet your own needs and get through the day and then layer on the additional executive functioning challenges of managing life for multiple people, not just yourself. And when we think about how hard it is for so many people to meet their access needs, then you layer on conflicting access needs. You know if there's a child who has the, an access need to discharge energy by screaming, and a parent has an access need for complete silence in order to think. Well, conflicting access needs. And then you layer on social interactions, challenges of emotional regulation challenges of having access to your skills for emotional regulation which are by and large for tech skills if you're dysregulated you may not have access to those things. So, I am going to, I think I think that's my last slide David if you want to start queuing up the video. I just wanted to say, as David's queuing up the video, like, yeah, sorry. Okay. Okay, so, but I guess before I'll do that I always forget that part. Sorry. Anyway, there's a lot of things that don't help. When we think about how ableist this society is the messages that are, you know, that send there's one right way to be a person there's one way to be a parent all the parenting books and all the things that people say that like, don't apply to a lot of a lot of people and that embedded in a lot of those messages are that it is superior to be able to do the thing. Surprisingly, for, for growing up in an ableist society, many people internalize that narrative, and the self judgment and shame that come from those internalized messages. And then not only is it difficult to ask for help when one is struggling. Of course, you know we can, what we're going to talk about for brain club next month on month we're going to talk about barriers to health care. So, so, and then what happens even if you can access professional support. Often the advice that is given around parenting doesn't apply to the situations that many people find themselves in. So we will be joined by our panelists, Travis, Charlie, Kat and Nadine, and we will hear hear from their experiences. And again we'll have the chat box gone, and then we'll have time for discussion to follow. When I was pregnant I had this like I had this brain rule of like, I'm going to become a calm person because I need this. It was anyway, so like I did yoga and I had. I had this counseling and I like walked and I was in nature and I like really was actually regulated and doing really well. And then became a parent, and I had no idea about my sensory processing. I had no idea about my PDA I had no idea that like, I had just no idea and so right again, it's the narrative of like, there's something really with you that you are so in chaos again. It's like all that you've ever wanted are some challenges that you face as a neurodivergent parent. I think the main challenge for me that I and I've really come to understand this better in the past year or so is how much downtime and rest I need for my brain. And I can't get it. It was really quick when Jacob was first born that like, Oh, wow, I've sort of hidden my whole life by taking care of other people's needs. So I didn't have to do the hard work of taking care of my needs, which is much more complicated. But Jacob, especially, you know, when he wasn't sleeping. That took so much energy like you're like, Oh, I need help. I do need help accessing or, you know, meeting my needs so I can even remotely meet his. And so that was a huge learning curve, not just for me, because I was like, Oh, I've never really done this. And then everyone around me was like, Oh, he's suddenly becoming very demanding, you know, like, and I'm like, I need to understand that it's exhausting in here, like the level of information and processing and analyzing and everything is just a lot and exhausting and ideally I would have not just downtime and rest but solitude and be able to just like decompress and process stuff and, you know, like reinvigorate myself, but it's it's really hard to get that being a working parent, a homeschooling slash unschooling parent also. So that's the thing that I when I look at my life, it's like, Oh, I really could use a lot more rest. What's it like to be a neurodivergent person parenting? Like, what's that been like? You can still talk about Elsa and Anna again. Yes, from there. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Just I was just saying that everyone knows Elsa's autistic, but not everyone knows Anna has ADHD. But then Mel saying, Well, maybe not everyone knows Elsa's autistic. I was like, Wow. My whoa. Yes. That's why she can't be queen too, right? She doesn't want to deal with that kind of social posturing. Anna's perfect for it. It worked out. It did work. It worked out in that, you know, Elsa achieved niche construction by going out to live in the woods. What are some challenges that you have faced as a neurodivergent parent? I'm still struggling with the concept of production. We talked about it during all brains belong. That whole concept of raising productive kids of being productive every minute of every day and being productive myself every minute of every day. What does that really mean? It's made the beginning of like the weeding out process that I think any neurodivergent parent needs to go through, you know, in terms of creating a safer bubble. And so then it was years later when we, when we first got a diagnosis about Jacob. And then months later, before I start, you know, I really triggered it or triggered it for me as I had this. A picture of me as a little kid about Jacob's age about four years old and I just, it fell out of a box somewhere and I stuck it on the fridge and it sat there for a couple months. And one day I noticed that in the picture and scratching my arm like this. And Jacob does this exact same scratch to my exact to my arm. It's exactly the same little movement. And I, and I asked my mom and dad, I'm like, did I do that as a kid and my, my dad didn't know my mom's like, well, not that much, you know, she was getting defensive already. And so that started the rabbit hole like, huh, we might look pretty similar. And then once we were getting a comfy blanket from Costco, and they have like two types of super soft blankets. And for some reason, one of them was really comfortable to me and the other one was really comfortable to him. And so we're having this fight over how do we cuddle on the couch with the blanket is kind of like our first access needs. And I'm getting frustrated with him for not accepting my blanket. And he eventually dawned on me that we were both just as like we were the same. But it, but it's very real like my soft blanket is prickly to him, his words, you know, and his soft blanket I can say yeah it's soft but it doesn't make me feel good. So like how does that play out for you because like I imagine that a lot or your access needs may conflict from time to time with other members of your household. Right. Well, and before I knew I was autistic, which was just a few years ago. I would just be struggling almost all the time, like, because I'm actually a mix of sensory seeking and sensory avoid it and it's really hard to parse out like when it comes to sounds of, you know, screaming kids or kids jumping on me I can get into the room, but when it comes to. But, you know, like this is the reason I'm wearing like three or four layers isn't just because I don't want to turn up the thermostat this is like my self soothing always a hat always, you know, and so, you know, I'm this mix of seeking and avoiding and it's been really, you know, knowing that has been so important and like that just start adding up and then you start to realize that like oh you're not just raging a neurodivergent kid but you have a neurodivergent family. And then you're, you know, and this is years suddenly access needs start to come in. And, you know, like, oh I thought I had to just negotiate my own needs now I have to negotiate my own access needs to and that one is largely sound. He's very loud, and I'm not and it's very triggering to me and I've tried earphones or plugs. But a lot of the ones you put in your ear they make internal sounds louder, like you can hear yourself chewing more and that kind of bugs me and I actually you know I don't even have to do it that much anymore but one of the most important things to me was just having these and they're big and not only is that nice because I like the pressure. It's nice because the kids can see them. So if they see me putting them on they're like, oh, he's overwhelmed, you know, wow, yeah, and it isn't and they know I can still hear them with them on so like I'm not ignoring them. You know, it just really is, you know, it's kind of like certain animals that can puff up parts of them when they're distressed. It's just like, whoop. That is amazing and you mean you're modeling for them, you know, me as a human, I am meeting my own access needs. This is how I'm going to regulate. Right and I'm still figuring out how to ask for my needs but sometimes it's easier with kids because they really start out with a blank slate, you know. How do you, are you able or are you able to meet your own access needs as a parent. We definitely have some conflicting access. Yeah. Yes, I think in one area I could think of an example with sleep. I need my sleep and I mean it's sacred even for my kids. We have health issues that pop up if we're not sleeping. So that was a big one that we had to address. So talking about how can we find a way to meet our needs, of course you have to figure out what they are, but then how can we together figure out a way to meet all of our needs. Otherwise a lot of access needs are just like, like it's like micro dosing with access needs, you know, so like, in my ideal world I would have like a mandate with a super big stereo system, so I could feel music, like headphones don't don't do it. Like I used to run a nightclub, like, oh you did feel like, like your, your glass of water rattles off the table, you know. Wow. So like if I get a chance to go to the grocery store by myself. I remind myself to listen to loud music in the car with a good stereo, you know. So it's, it's like, you know, stealing your access needs. To me, Elsa was was aware of her access needs she's like that's enough on and then on a gas like that's enough and there was like third strike it's like. Yeah, exactly. And that is, you know, that is actually a good segue to thinking about my, my parenting because I have a seven year old, and at three and a half year old, and they have very different seven year old is much more sensory seeking than the three and a half year old. And, you know, that kind of stuff does, he can't shoot fire or ice or anything but yeah, almost. You know, I think there was a study, or something that came out, you know, the, the, the families that eat together on the dinner table without screens without to, you know, anything we have a conversation. You know, those are the families that make it stick together. Maybe study. I don't know, but maybe that's good for a lot of people but it was so stressed out. It has definitely been just like such a continual process of unlearning letting go surrendering. This is not at all what I thought it would look like be like, and you know, and, and there was like quite a lot to go through to. So I mean I think it's you know it's it's like it's like unlearning, like, you know, whatever you thought parenting was supposed to look like. Yes, yes, like we put when I moved in here, put little tags name tags on every shelf and stuff because you know I think I'm autistic but I've got the kind of I've got ADHD traits mixed in to like most of us do. I never took off the labels. Now I don't really use them anymore, and maybe someday I'll take them off, but it helps the kids with reading to to be able to see them so they started labeling stuff. And now it says daddy on my on my door, you know and like, I think the Hulk. Really excited that she could make the Hulk say Hulk on it. One of the biggest, most important things for me has been coming to see both my child's brain and my brain through a strength based lens like, you know, like really focusing on amazing strengths and benefits of having a neurodivergent brain and utilizing those and building those and honoring those and and celebrating those rather than then focusing on what's wrong. So do you talk about access needs sensory needs etc like you talk about that explicitly with your kids. I tried to I'm still learning how to do that. Yeah, but yes, you know, I do I talk about, you know, well if they want the lights on, you know, maybe we'll turn them on but usually they're fine with it, you know and sound like, you know, I'll just I just try to find the right way to say, you know, if it's okay to be loud because I can't really regulate my voice five but it needs to be like more farther apart from me. It actually hurts. You know, if you're screaming and I'm not talking like screaming and fear or pain or something I just like kids just like the screen. Right. Sure. Great. I mean, you're really you're teaching them about conflicting access needs. I think if all humans understood conflicting access needs, we would have a lot less chaos in the world is getting old enough where I can say stuff like, it's really hard on my brain when you yell. And he starts so we're just getting to the point where we can do stuff like that. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that has helped around being able to meet not just my access needs but the needs of my whole family is having just very open transparent dialogue about, you know, I need a break or I can't do that right now I need a little time like that, you know, for a lot. It's like the transitions or whatnot are frazzling for me and so having demand right after the transition of need for engagement or whatever like often I'm just like, you know, and so being able to just say, like, my brain needs a little time like that was really overwhelming for my brain has been so helpful and then having that so we all can say, you know, talk about what's happening in our brains and and then we all get it and understand it's like having that common understanding and language that has been so helpful in advocating at least forgetting those needs met. And that leads more to being interdependent to I've been thinking about interdependence versus independence and interdependence feels better to me. So I guess, I've been challenged I've been struggling with figuring out how far I can push the envelope of showing my neurodivergent traits openly, this bit outside of our home I think we've, we've, we've grown a lot in the past few years in our home but how much can we take that outside of the home. My community hasn't always felt super safe. I was going to ask you like, you know, it's such a neuro normative question that I included in my email to you, like, and of like what do you wish you knew everything I wish I knew everything about my brain. I wish I knew that my experiences were real all along. When I said something hurt or you know this is something a lot of people say but when something didn't feel good. You know, as my own childhood, you know, my parents did a great job with what they had which wasn't really a lot in terms of understanding neurodivergence but the school system just just brown me to bits, you know, and so like, it wasn't it wasn't supposed to be uncomfortable to me in the classroom therefore it wasn't. And like, that gets translated down to parenting to I shouldn't be uncomfortable with this I'm supposed to like kids doing this and that I'm supposed to be okay with this. And always they come first, but you know I can't actually be the parent I want to be if I'm in on in burnout or on the edge of meltdowns and shutdowns and you know. Amen. Back when, when my, my first child was born, I didn't take off from work I self employed. And I thought, as someone who's self employed that if I took off my work would suffer, I would lose business, people wouldn't understand. And that's when I finally did take off. People understood the world didn't end you know it wasn't noble to push through so hard and that makes me think about one of the things that I've been starting to talk about with my six year old is around interdependence versus independence and like normalizing interdependence. Yes, like the narrative of like, you know, you know, you did the thing by yourself like I just it's so overly glorified. You know, I haven't that's a good. That's a really good point. You're right it's also, they need to have some independence but they don't we don't want to like instill this colonial over. Emphasis on everyone doing everything on their own which is like not healthy. It's not healthy at all and like it's okay to it's preferable to belong to community and rely on and be connected to people. Right and the people who are pushing the independence narrative often rely on others a lot more than they realize. I am having to navigate social situations that I've avoided for decades. Again, as my kid makes friends with people like birthday parties. I hate birthday parties. There's a video of me on my own fifth birthday hiding. Like, you know, and then my parents said they had a big birthday party because they didn't know I wouldn't like it and they never did it again they felt bad as well you didn't know but like, that's what I want to do as an adult to and kid, you know, birthday parties are big and then I'm like. Yeah, it's one of those things like it brings me back to being in college or high school where I'm in a social group but I'm drifting to the side because I don't know how to be a part of it because maybe this is an opportunity to reimagine again of like, maybe there's no right way to be at a birthday party. Well, that's true. You just named the thing of like, yeah, if this is a birthday party, some people play side by side some people, you know, or like, you know, can, can, can. Is there something like what would you rather than think about it as like gravitating for the sidelines avoiding the main activity, like could you have an activity that you actually enjoy it's just not being a big crowd of the people. Well, sometimes I try to find a job like, oh, there was a fire in the North old shelter fire thing I just took care of that or the people who were supposed to feel familiar never did. And then that's what that contrast is what made me feel inadequate. I'm like there's something wrong with me that I'm uncomfortable around you even though like really it's because you're an unsafe bucket person, but I didn't have language to describe that. I was just like, what's wrong with me I can't get along with the people I feel so uncomfortable I don't know what to say. So there's younger older kids who were barred. I'll go hang out with them. Yes. It's like, consciously think about it. It makes it easier. And then I don't get upset with myself for why did I do that, you know, right because I'm like, I'm such a loser who like can't do the birthday party thing. Yeah, it's like that's the old narrative that's like, yeah, exactly. That's like what we tell ourselves all the time. I could actually go to, you know, like a cocktail party. And if no one knew anyone, I was fine. Everything else, not fine. So not fine. Too clicky. Too clicky. Right. Yeah, I'm playing out for Luna already as a kinder burner. When she sees other kids are familiar and she doesn't like, she doesn't feel like she is on the invert right and so, yeah, so she, yeah, that that idea that whole scaffolding piece, the, the gap she can't navigate, she can't navigate the gap. Right. Yeah. Yeah, but if there's like, if there's like an adult who is facilitating. You know, being like a central figure who's facilitating a game where everyone has a role and the expectations are clear. And it's like, there's some structure to it like that's fine. She'll play those games. Yeah. My kid wants to go to this whatever birthday party. And then I end up doing what I always do anyway because I'm autistic which is go like sit by a fire or sit outside or something like alone and then it's like, well then it seems like I'm not part of the, you know, or that I don't want that to rub off towards my kid is like, well, he doesn't seem to want to interrupt maybe his kid doesn't you know what I mean. It's all the brain rules. It's like all the things that people like make up that like aren't aren't real but but are common like they're not real but they are commonly like held. Yeah. Well, I'm like, yeah, it's like going back to like you you're in this life where you're like showing up as your authentic self in the world but like in these other instances you're having to put your mask back on. So, oh and this is your your experience as a parent. How does how does your lived experience when you see your child faced with that gap that that that they can't navigate what what are your what wisdom. Do you bring to those moments for yourself or for them in the thick of it. I don't, I don't have this it's like two minutes maybe it's like 60 seconds later before I can zoom out and then it's 60 seconds too late. It's the matching of my experience as a child that makes me want to fix it and change it. You know and certainly I don't mean sweeping the challenges under the rug at all because I think there's also been a lot of real power in sharing with my child around our different challenges and our shared challenges and I think that that's been so important. But I can see with my child like how much the more that we just like do up the strengths and honor those strengths and make space for the strengths, the better that they do. And so I'm working on applying that to myself to especially for us that came from generations where you just you really weren't allowed to be yourself no matter who you were like nobody was. And so, you know, I don't know how else we were discover ourselves after like, we're in a mask for that long, but having a neurodivergent kid certainly makes it possible because you can, you can see who you might have, you maybe once were. And then you're like, Oh, I could do that. I could be that again. So there we have it. So it's been a lot of great conversation going on in the chat. And I, I will open it up and ask what's standing out for folks. Jay, did you, you had asked if you could make a comment you want to go first. Oh, yeah. I guess I'm, I'm ironically, I'm like, almost two months into recovery and like the only relationships that get worse whenever I get sober are the ones with my family. And it's like, I, I get in this predicament where it's like my parents have this whole thing where it's like, if they support me. There's like, you know, I say, Hey, can you hire me a life coach and it's like, they end up hiring like when I was younger they would hire 10 people when they needed to hire to. And it was like, or and if that didn't work, they'd like cut all the support. I mean the predicament I'm dealing with with my family is like, is it's like my parents have this idea that until like, I get my shit more together, they don't want to support me but it's like I if I don't have transportation if I can't pay for my own food if I have to make money just to like survive then I'm not in a good predicament. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's like it's almost it's almost like in my parents case, it's like if I do something stupid. Anything that happens to me after happened, because I did that dumb thing, not because other people did crazy shit to me. And I think that a lot of people are in similar situations right because there's a lot of these assumptions that people make and the rigidity when people are dysregulated they like dig into that rigidity about how they think the world works and that's not how the world works. I wonder, you know, I think for a lot of people who learn that they are neuro divergent later in life. Often there's the, the wonderings about the maybe some, maybe, maybe some things about one's parents that maybe there isn't isn't a lot of awareness or insight into the world on behalf of those parents of adult children. I wonder if anyone has has experience like that in interacting with parents and trying to represent their access needs, which is I think what the theme of what you mentioned Michelle wrote in the chat. My family expects me to be the masked self, because my unmasked self reminds them of their own that they're trying to ignore. Yes Michelle I think that that is really common. That's the point I was trying to make in the last bit I said about in my interview there is that like, even as a parent, I, I had a fear, I want that thing that reminds me of my struggle, I want that to not happen. And I think that that's that's that's that's really common. What have others experiences been in navigating their interactions with with their own parents or families of origin. My mom did really good until about my second semester in college after I got to about age 20 and it's like she did a great job. When I was a kid and a teen and then as soon as I became an adult at like all fell apart. Yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry, and it's so so common. It's not even I'm not even blaming her it wasn't that she wasn't trying to be helpful it was just it's like. Yeah, I don't know it's just it's almost like. Yeah, she didn't really like. It's like she wants me to grow up but she still like thinks of me as a 10 year old or two year old kid. Yeah, I think such a common thing that I see both in my family and other people's is the. The, the brain rules and biases that come from people being neurodivergent and being undiagnosed, and then what that turns into with their kids. And so neurodivergent parents who've been masking their whole life and not realizing that they're masking and then that. That's just how everybody is everybody just masks 24 seven and that looks like I had to restrain myself from laughing. So accurate reading in the chat. Elizabeth says I think my parents and grandparents enforcing neurotypical norms created trauma for me and themselves. I was more able to see a different paradigm for my kid and my role in parenting him but he has more stereotypical autistic traits. I had a very high demand household growing up, and it's tough letting that go. And as I go low demand in my household now. Kelly says I was shocked to learn that everyone doesn't mask. And I think, you know, masking just as a, as a, as a broader topic and we talk about this often here is that, you know, there's the, there are many people who it's not safe to unmask they're not in environments where it's safe for them to show up as their authentic themselves. And, and, and, and as people plunge deeper and deeper to burnout, even though masking for many people is a subconscious experience, there is some degree of executive functioning and impulse control associated with with masking and often when people lose the ability to mask that's when they may be for the first time. I'll learn that they're not a virgin. Christina says I think that there's a lot of fear attached to the parenting from from control. It comes from trying to prevent bad futures for our kids, but it's the control that actually creates the chaos. I absolutely agree and I think that, especially when nervous systems are porous to energy. When you can detect the vibe that someone is trying to control you or change who you are or how you are. That can be so profoundly dysregulated, and it becomes a vicious cycle. Elizabeth says my family of origins very wrapped up in traditional neurotypical conformity and anything else is threatening. If I am myself with them they have to face their own failure, and they can't handle that. And I think that as someone, you know, comes to learn about their own brain and their own access needs. I think they're, you know, inevitably they're there. There are relationships that are no longer safe, and that sometimes relationships where people get to a place where having relationships where they can be unmasked in certain settings and have to try to put the mask back on. It's, it's really hard to put the mask back on, and sometimes relationships like that. They fall, they fall away. And that's hard and sometimes necessary. David says we used to think we all needed to eat at the dinner table because our parents did and everyone tells us yet for our kids it's not always the best for them. Right. Kelly. I've been like, trying to think of what I wanted to say and how I want to say it and I want to remember to talk about the dinner table, but I wanted to start with. First, I, I grew up to with a single mom who was wildly abusive. I did not have a good childhood. I don't have more than a handful of positive memories about the woman who gave birth to me. And I left home at 16. She somehow married an amazing person who is still in my life and is my chosen father they are divorced have been divorced for a long time. They didn't get married until I was like 18 or so, but I, I didn't walk into parenting, having a single idea of what it should look like I just knew what it didn't look like I knew what I would never expose my children to in any way. And we never ate together. My mother and I never. And so it was very important to me that my family eat together at the table and we do we eat together at the table except for Wednesdays and weekends that's when we movie it up or whatever. You can get the expectation of how you're at the table. That's like up for interpretation, you can be walking around the table you can be standing at the table. You don't have to eat dinner if you're not hungry. I just asked that your presence is there because that's my access need to connect, because I grew up watching Nick at night, and all of the reruns of all of the awful 1950s families, but they all eat dinner and it was just something that I romanticized and I lized as a kid because I was just so hungry for that sort of family that. And I hear everybody and see everybody, you know, saying how hard it is to sit at the dinner table and then I start thinking like, oh my God, have I like enforced this awful thing on my family and so you know I'm going to ask them after like hey is truly the worst thing ever for anybody. And you know to see how how they feel about it because I do recognize like this was my thing. And it's wild parenting and I was, I'm grateful that my son was diagnosed super early I wish that I hadn't gone 46 years without diagnosis that would have been pretty but I'm happy where I am and I'm happy that I don't think I'm just this broken person that like there's reasons now that I understand. And so yeah that's that's my little blurb about the dinner table. Thanks Kelly and I think it's not you know that's it sounds like in so many other examples that you've created a culture where you can prove for people's access needs and on that access needs. Kim says in the chat. I have undiagnosed a neurodivergent family members who are very critical of people with core social skills or who are quote socially awkward. I get that it's a survival mechanism because they see how badly unmasked people are treated, and they see those traits in themselves but it's still awful to hear. Absolutely. Christina says, every time I release expectations of how things are quote supposed to be I see my kids away clear. And I think they want to excel in areas that they want to excel in because they don't have to put energy into trying to fit something that I have enforcing. And, and, and, and, and I think, well, I'm just scrolling down. And Marie says, has anyone ever read the book, The Sharp End of Life it's about Deja. Linda's mom. I was a famous rock climber and neurodivergent person it's excellent. She realized his gift when he was young and she always wondered why so many people wanted to control her children. Yeah. And I'm just scrolling scrolling and j e there's a comment just recognizing you for for your vulnerable for making yourself vulnerable and sharing so much of yourself and we really really appreciate that. And, and I think, I think there's so many, so many commonalities and so many hard things. Michelle says the shift from my house my rules parenting to this is our home with safe boundaries is hard but necessary. And Christina's sorry it's jumping jumping all around the point of the night where it's hard to read, removing the supposed to expectation from my kids has made it so much easier to remove those same expectations from myself. Yeah. I think, you know, it's, it's, it's all a process right so it's a process of just like becoming more familiar with your own experience and your own needs and maybe having the opportunity to like look back and rewrite some of some of the past narratives, especially like when those narratives came from other people to have context of like, yeah, if I got this message as a child, it maybe relates to a bigger picture here of like shame and stigma. And I think, you know, in addition to rewriting, writing those narratives, like cat says we can rewrite things with our kids. Sometimes when I give feedback to my child about like well you can't do it that way you got to do it this way that I'm like, you know, when I was little, my parents used to tell me X, he believed those brain rules and the six rule is like brain rules anyway, so it's it's it's it's it's some that kind of transparencies can sometimes be really helpful. And as it comes to like social situations, and like, I remember as a as a little kid like a third grader I remember this day and my mom sat me down and was like, it's really important for people to like you. And I think that's that's probably pretty common that message. And really probably what that relates to is the societal pressures that you know lots of people face. As opposed to that the, there are other priorities, Sierra. Yeah, I just, I feel like I said this before I'm bring clubs but I think especially when we're talking a lot about these kind of like generational traumas for lack of a better word I really like to also think about the aspect of generational healing and even if it's that kind of a little progress I mean the fact that my grandparents never talked about mental health my parents thought about it in their 40s and I'm thinking about it in my 20s and my kids are going to think about it when they're younger like there's it takes a while but those those little steps are huge and and like you said male having those conversations about this is this is what my parents told me or I acted like this and this is why I acted like this and I would actually rather act a different like being having that transparency and making sure your kids know that it's okay to mess up sometimes. Yeah, and it's it's inevitable. And Marie says I hope we're undoing generations of trauma it's so hard sometimes but worth it and frankly now that I changed my parenting philosophy it's a lot easier to try to understand the nervous systems in my family than it is to try to control them. And yeah, so so Christina says there's so many so many challenges from advocating for my kids and and it's it's it's coming down to safety. And she is bringing up areas of intersectionality when there's you know multiple aspects of identity that are marginalized and othered, and, and how much how how how how important it is to find to find community. And I think that, you know, next week, when we only when we have our monthly book chat. So this is, and this is the first time we've done a book chat by a non speaking author. And so, when we think about, you know, inclusive community wherever one feels that they belong. This is a book written by a child that we're going to be discussing next week. And written by a by a 13 year old, who is a non speaking communicator and wrote the whole book with a with a letter board, and sharing some really powerful messages that I think are are are are have a real commonality to a lot of the painful things that have been talked about tonight. And I think that, you know, just, just, it's, it's, it's humbling where it's at least it's humbling for me to have to arrive at at such insights through the lens of a child. And with that, I thank you all so very much for coming. And I will look forward to seeing you next week. Thank you.