 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm your host Scott Ernsting along with the co-host my partner in crime the doc himself Jimmy Bucciolato. Hi everyone and We have a very very compelling subject for this show and an outstanding Gasta a true pioneer for females in federal law enforcement. Her name is Patricia Noughton Patty Noughton. She was one of the first DA undercover females In the history of federal law enforcement and really set a trailblaze a path for women fighting the bad guys and She had a career that you know, this woman was a force of nature Wherever she went she had a career that spanned multiple states Multiple categories of of organized crime some of her work took her to our home base of Detroit, Michigan We're back in the 1980s She was actually able to infiltrate the infamous jackaloni crew and she's gonna tell us that story as well as many more Thank you for joining us Patricia Noughton. Well, thank you for those compliments I'm kind of a little overwhelmed, but thank you so much and thank you for including me in this podcast You are a true superstar that has a lot of historical significance and we want to hear your story So why don't we kind of start from? You know, let's let's start at your roots. Where do you grow up and how did you get into law enforcement? Well, I grew up in southern Indiana. I was born in San Francisco. My mom was in the Navy and World War two And I grew up in Bloomington, which is the home of Indiana University My mom was a middle school librarian She was hearing impaired her whole life And she did a wonderful job of bright women and my dad was in the labor unions as a business agent He was a painter and I grew up there. I went to Indiana University and I had an inkling as odd as it is that it'll be wonderful to be an Undercover officer or agent and I don't know where that started, but I loved acting as well and Indiana University had one of the very early criminal justice programs So I jumped in and it was like, oh my god It was it was karmic It was meant to be it was a great time because I actually graduated in 1974 And I was going through school with the Vietnam veterans who would come back after the war and were also in criminal justice and That meant a lot to me and that also really started my affinity For men and women in the military That that really really touched me. So when I graduated in 1974 I got a job with the Bloomington Police Department as a police dispatcher now Bloomington I think is about a hundred and twenty thousand but forty of that is students and it's an agrarian society and a huge manufacturer or However cultivator of limestone the limestone quarries are very important and if you remember the Fabulous movie breaking away. That was all about the Bloomington limestone quarries in Indiana University so I got a job police dispatcher and Let me tell you I have great mad respect for anyone on the 9-1-1 system Because at the time I was often alone and I was in charge of all the ambulance police fire calls for not just the city but the entire county and You've never experienced life until you've had a woman a senior woman call in and say oh my god My husband's dying in the ambulance and hang up and this is before the we have the ability to trace back So I did that and then I decided I want to go back for a master's degree I talked to the chief and so that's been made a record so I can go back to college You said I want you to apply for a police officer And at the time there's been two police officers and then come on each female that had left after a year And I don't blame them it wasn't easy And then there were two that were on board of police officers that hadn't been through the academy And they were in their 40s very nice women so I got hired on I went through the academy and I must humbly say I'm very proud that I was the first female class president The Indiana State Law Enforcement Academy. I still don't know how I got elected. We made speeches but it was a huge honor for me and Although Who was the head of the academy? I heard he was not pleased But I came back to Bloomington. I started working street patrols and narcotics unit help needed help at night Searching informants, so I started mood and lighting with them and then after I'd been doing that for about four months I ended up draft directing traffic during the day at the Intersection in town and two houses down one street was a place where I was blind dope at night I basically just kind of started doing the undercover stuff myself So I was put full-time in to undercover narcotics The state police didn't have women narc. I don't think they had any troopers female at the time because right now. We're talking 1974 1975 so They sent somebody down We've got more funds and money and I would travel to out the state of Indiana going in Two places where the male narcotics agents have been unable to infiltrate What that meant was going into heroin dens and a lot of very difficult places and I'm not gonna bullshit anybody and tell you I wasn't scared But and especially contrary to what you see sometimes is we don't sleep with our drug descendants And we don't use drugs so especially in a heroin den situation that became very very difficult And I the only thing I can say is I'm Scott's Irish I developed a tremendous line of bullshit if I can just interrupt for a moment So you you had to convince them that you were a junkie that so so that they would buy it. Is that is that what you're saying? Yeah I was a junkie or I was buying for my old man Who is a junkie and get in there and get dope and get out without using and especially with the heroin den thing I can think of one thing. I think I'll be found in Evansville I think this guy was in a condo high-rise and I remember when I went in They they told me he likes for the women to bump him up Which is inject them with heroin that's very sexy I guess to them to have a woman inject them when I went in he had this metal door and a bar that goes all the way across you know and I was worried and So I just said hey, I gotta get this my old my man I'll come back and then it was like bye. See ya, but it was it was not easy It was these are crazy times and unlike with CEA When you're working at the local level you're dealing with a lot of low-life a lot of dirt bags You know a lot of users. Oh, yeah, it was not easy. Yeah, Patty Let me interject one thing here a small digression This is reminding me a little bit of one of the most underrated Movies of the 1990s a movie that was called rush with Jason Patrick and Jennifer Jason Lee where they were they played a couple That were infiltrating drug circles down in Texas and the Jennifer Jason Lee character was this very innocent-looking female that had to be as as fierce and you know as Tough as leather. I mean just tough as nails. Do you've seen that movie? Was there any kind of parallels to the life you were leading? Not only did I see it somewhere in all of my storage things I have the original poster that I convinced the new movie theater to give me That's cool. So that movie was close to your heart. It's really over in that movie, too Sam Sam Elliott played the play the police captain. There's some okay And then talking about our love of rock and roll Greg Allman played the drug. Yeah. Yeah Oh, I watched that I can probably recite some of the lines and I I always wanted to come out to California and write which of course I'm trying to do now and That was one of the inspirations because I thought damn I don't I have a story, you know But it was it was very inspirational and I think it was really indicative of the times that we were coming into You know with the whole drug culture and everything and yeah, I thought that was a tremendous movie That movie took place in 1975 and she was Living the same exact life just in a different part of the country almost identical to the Jennifer Jason Lee character really the most Memorable in terms of pop culture the thing that people most remember from that film is the Eric Clapton song tears from heaven Which I believe one Oscar and a Grammy was written about his son that had died Tragically fell off of a balcony and that's what people remember about that film But the film itself is really a a great piece of cinema and a look into the work of undercover Narco-detective, so let's let's get back on track patty and tell us how you how you segwayed from working in in local law enforcement Indiana to federal law enforcement. Well, I worked with the DEA on a couple of cases while I was with the PD and then I must tell you that in 1978 after or no 1976 after divorce I was married to an IU campus police officer I got the opportunity to go with the IU police department up in Indianapolis Indiana University IUPUI Where I became detective lieutenant over the investigative bureau I was there two years and I must also give credit to Colonel Spurgeon Davenport who is a retired Indianapolis Deputy chief one of the very very first early black officers and he was really an instrumental Influence and mentor on me and then I was recruited and picked up by DEA and 1978 the spring of 78 and I was specifically hired at that time for undercover That was that's what they were really looking for and so I started in the academy and June June 12th of 1978 How many women were in your class? I think there was six and we lost one and it was historic It was really historic and they you could really tell again the influence of the Vietnam era Was huge and they had about a 20% washout They I think the class started it may be 25 They washed out one guy who would have been a wonderful agent He was one of the guys that broke the John Gacy thing back and was outside of Chicago They let him go the day before graduation Raphael Tovar, which I never understood. He was a fine fine man But anyway, the the influence of the Vietnam War was very very big on the academy you had a lot of the trainers that had come out of Vietnam and The training was beyond rigorous in three months I dropped four clothing sizes Injuries were rampant. Yes, it was it was in insane But it was a wonderful program and just to give you an example of the mentality at the time His name I'm spacing on his last name, but he had been a national Golden Gloves champ and we were having boxing, okay and I remember I was Paired with an agent by the name of a finish rate price. He's a long retired and I heard him pull a price aside and say I want you to knock her out and if you don't knock her out I'm gonna knock you out And pretty intense So I used this line that I had used when I was in Uniform when I was trying to arrest a man that was a lot bigger than I was I Would say my mother always told me my face is my best asset and So if I think you're gonna hurt me, I'm gonna have to shoot you Right my face is my best asset that's it my mother's always said don't ever do anything Don't ever let your face get hurt. So if I think you're really gonna hurt me I'm gonna have to kick you with so hard in the ball That's smart it might sum up for Patty not and one little anecdote going forward This was not someone that you wanted to mess with she she was a true a true force of nature Well, thank you. Well, you know, you have to wing it and and the thing is I really didn't have anybody before me so I was making it up as I went and and I'll never forget a big brown eyes and his eyes just looked like saucers and So we slugged the shit out of each other But we made Disproportionate portion screaming noises to the point where they must have believed that we were beating the crap out of each other So we survived Patty when you were going through all this and you're going through the academy in 1978 and like you said there was Six women in the class and that had that number of women that had never been that that level with with that that amount of Inclusion did you realize that you were blazing a trail that this was pioneering on your behalf? You know, Scott, I wish I could say I had those noble feelings But if you look at my excuse my friends, I just did God, please get me the fuck through this Micro than macro You know and and the physical injuries one guy ended up with a broken collar bone at infant titus in my legs I mean it was Beyond intense and I must tell you that the other thing they did with the women is they brought us in and tried to make us cry I kid you not and They individually they would they had this group the counselors and these people and they would try to make us cry And I was so proud there was only one other woman and myself and we didn't cry, you know, this kind of badgering thing. I must say You know, this was new and and I will tell you this because I did I didn't understand this much later When I really started to reflect I know women who went through law enforcement. I went through a lot I went through an unbelievable amount of crap and I have never been angry about it Because we were changing the way men perceived women I mean not just us all sorts of women doctors, you know Women that work driving big equipment fire women and the whole thing But anybody that looks at history and things that has Historically, we're just gonna have a kumbaya moment and it's gonna be over. Sure. You can be a federal agent I don't I agree that you don't have to have testosterone and my masculine's not masculinity is not insulted. They're crazy I'm really cool with that. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm really cool And I am glad that I was able to contribute I went on I was the first woman There's a plaque somewhere Well now they've moved but it wasn't quite off. I was the first woman to shoot a perfect score at the range and It was on the last day of Qualification and we were taking a bus to Quantico because at the time the Academy was in actually the DEA headquarters and then we used off-site for different things And it was so funny I did because I went on to be the first woman weapons instructor teaching at FBA at Quantico as a guest instructor and then my own division But the instructor was so excited that I we were close I know it's close when I got the perfect score. It was a scorching day He dumped a whole huge cooler of orange Gatorade on me and there's a lot of bees Yeah, and yeah, yes, you know, I never thought of that but yeah, but the masculine thing He was so excited and he wanted to do so triumphant moment. It was I guess Yeah, yeah, yeah, but here I'm running around like a one-woman bee catcher And then we had to ride all the way back in a DC on the bus. She's taking from the from the carbonation Yeah, but but I was happy and then I I they really wanted me to go to Miami. Oh my god I did tour of duties down there. I do over the go fast Chasing drug smugglers coming in in the middle of the night one of the greatest Experiences in my life. Oh my god But I was the daughter of really elderly parents My dad was just shy of 50 and mom's just month shy of 42 and I was born first and only child only first marriage to them And I really didn't think I could do it So I ranked really high in the class and when they asked me where I wanted to go I said I want to go to Detroit and And they once you pull them off the floor from them from them fainting that you're requesting a transfer to Detroit Most people say we try how much they regain consciousness. What did you tell them reasoning or wanting to come? Yeah, I think what happened is somebody went outside and told the paddy wagon with the men and white suits That they they could go ahead and go they handle it exactly Yeah, but yeah, and I was one I said don't don't ever tell anybody you want to go to Detroit because I'd let some people know But ahead of time that we're already on the job back in Indy that this is probably what I was gonna do And they're like don't think you're not Excuse me. That's not what he said. They'll think you're fucking nuts. Yeah It's like volunteering for frontline duty in Vietnam. Well, let me be a grunt locally. Yeah, but But I gotta tell you so I came to Detroit and and I was thinking about it because I knew I was going to talk to you today, you know I mean the Detroit was hopping You know, Detroit was Absolutely happened at the time It was homicide murder capital of the nation, which of course, you know 2 million people at the time Uh, the Motown sound which to this day is still my jam I love the Motown sound two of the members of the four tops lived in my condo complex I mean it was tremendous. I remember the music was everywhere I remember sitting at a Stephanie Mills concert and supper club, you know, little tiny Stephanie Mills I don't know if you guys remember from the late 70s big sound Yeah, but tiny tiny woman and all of a sudden Up comes in her bright yellow long Gown with a cigarette and a drink in one hand Aresha Franklin And just comes up and kind of almost gives Stephanie a hip bump, you know And she just took over the stage and that was the kind of energy that was there And and so it was okay, you know I was cool with it the the first day I reported for dig You really immersed yourself in in your new home. I mean not just taking a new job But wanting to be able to feel and smell and taste all the texture of of the city that you were coming into Scott, I was a woman born in 1951 In Bloomington, Indiana. I love Bloomington. I still have friends back there But I never could have had these opportunities I mean my god and I never would have been pushed I mean going through the academy alone Was a huge push Both physically and mentally I I went to places mentally and physically I never knew I had And and it was incredible. I I must share at the I know you have other questions But I knew that I wanted to tell you this On the first day I reported for duty I had like a suit on a nice Pretty skirt and you know jacket and high heels. It's just I'm gonna wear those But anyway, I parked on 4th street one block down from the back side of the federal building And I was walking to the corner First day, okay, we're right in Detroit. Here I am and there's this huge like Light pillar I think and it's about 12 inches in diameter You know going all the way up and it's solid rock and all this stuff and as I get close to the corner there this Sadly this really deranged man, you know, just really out of his mind He is beating the shit out of this pillar and he is cussing at it And he's having a conversation with it and he's smacking it And I said to myself Yeah, this is what Detroit's gonna be like Welcome to the motorcycle. We're crazy as currency. Let me ask you patty. So when so when you so you get this assignment What was the first like? Uh, when when they're trying to, um, explain the underworld landscape in Detroit italian mafia guys african-american Gangsters, what was that like? What were some of the the names that they threw out to you? What what what was that like the underworld landscape as they explained it to you in Detroit? Well, I'm gonna be willing to with you. I wasn't getting a lot of extra You had to find out in the field Yeah, I mean there was there were two other women and they both left. So I was the only woman in three states Um, uh, so at first they weren't even talking a lot, but I had a great first assignment I'll show that with you but interestingly enough a guy by the name of harry hansel who became a great partner Had they just closed to come call this ohio office. It was a rack office, which means resident agent is small and and um, I wasn't assigned with him at first but later on this kind of fit the mold He came up and our desks were seated next to each other and he looked at me and said I can't work with you. You have to go to another office And that was kind of how he you know, a lot of them really felt that way And it's simple. I got bad news for you. I got no place to go. So it's on you and we became great partners But my my first partner we really didn't have much of a relationship. But my second partner was he was out of vietnam he had come back from vietnam and um He was a guy that looked for all the world like bobby knight I mean they looked alike They presented the comportment. It wasn't the same general vocabulary. I hope vocabulary was this Vesifers. Yeah, yeah Yeah, he he wasn't so much of a cusser But he was a reserve Our reserve captain in the army is reserved and he wouldn't wear combat boots to work But he's really the guy that That amazingly enough Kind of had my back At the first assignment we did rather than really talking about stuff My first assignment I was assigned to one of four clandestine labs in the entire country The entire country and labs were really big, you know, you think about I mean people were cooking everything, you know And so I was I was assigned to that and it was a fabulous time because you would jump in the car You could end up somewhere 400 miles somewhere else You know, uh, I mean labs were just everywhere And um, you know, you lived in your car. You had all your stuff. You were gone for days Labs are tremendously dangerous as we know and scott. I think as you know, I did just finally finish A movie script. I just finally finished. So I got off my butt about the back in the day about the clandestine labs And so that was really cool But at the same time they I started getting shipped around to go undercover on heroin And on different things and at the same time Within a couple years in the biker influence was huge in terms of drugs in detroit and The they're the transporting of of drugs both into canada and down from canada Was was a really big thing. One of my undercover things was a by-bust of 40 000 hits of Keep-on-truckin acid And it's really weird because Who knew? You know, I I just kind of and you know enjoyed working on them and yeah, that was the 40 000 Hits that we see it's on an undercover thing on a by-bust thing involving I brought my partner the I read Roger in as As my boyfriend interestingly enough just when you think you know what the times you're like He never wanted to be the main guy when it was my case He always wanted it to be my case and after all these years I I think of him very fondly he He he was very troubled by a lot of things going on with the government and of course He'd just come back from vietnam um So he had a lot of issues going on and he ended up leaving dea, but I have great affinity and he still lives and I think canton town shippers canton is something but he he really he really You know, he really helped me a lot when nobody else wanted to work with me But yeah, the the biker influence and of course as we all know I don't know how much you talked about it on the podcast But motorcycle gangs are a tremendous form of under organized crime as well Yep, there's a lot of cross pollination with uh with the with the italians and especially here in detroit um The outlaws and the highwaymen have always worked very closely with the uh toko's really crime family That is really really interesting that that is something I did not know but it makes sense because when I was still You know in the 80s you were seeing how they were were going into Legitimate businesses as a front for their organization and for money laundering and different things but I uh, I worked undercover on them and then I I guess you're wondering about how I I did a lot of traveling, you know, I did a lot of traveling going in places. Um I did the outlaws and the grim rapers down in Started in Kentucky and went down into the southeast and um Spent a lot of time in a biker bar Owned by he was the past national president of the grim rapers That was really interesting because that was in lilyville, kentucky and um My nearest surveillance was across six a six lane highway I mean and you can't you can't go in these places. It was, you know, pretty much similar to a clubhouse You know, you couldn't have surveillance in there They had a police on the take And so I had to go in with no gun no badge and no wire and um So that made for some pretty interesting Um experience you just had to win you just had to wing it and just it was like I don't wing on a prayer that you were going to Be able to kind of bootstrap your way in and out of that situation without any The support resources that you might get in other situations. I think that's that's a very very good point and I think For me if I if I didn't the one if I didn't absolutely plan and absolutely rehearse And absolutely. I mean by like literally like writing a script rehearse what I was going to say And what they might say and then what I would say in response and then what if all this stuff I I really really had a plan going in And then you also really do believe in god I I saw enough between day and a cop and in being in dea that I know there's whatever you want to call it There's got to be a higher power for damn sure So for you to infiltrate the biker groups Do they think you were like one of the the so-called old ladies or did they think you were a buyer? Or how did you like earn their trust and integrate that or infiltrate that operation? Yeah, I know see that that and you hit on something that's really the key and that I really learned very early on working undercover for dea is You're nobody's old lady any time you especially with the biker thing, you know you're You're you're not anybody's old if you go in from that you're going to have trouble I went in from a money standpoint and I said I was from Virginia And uh, that's how you went in and I had an informant Take me in and I'm I'm sorry. I know I'm just talking too much But I must tell you this is a really funny anecdote because this is a sign of the time um When I was going in on the gremory purse and the chapter president of the outlaws in lilyville And I met this informant for the first time and we're all up in this whole tell You know meeting the whole crew getting ready for all this and I'm meeting this informant and I've got this tight black A t-shirt tank top with the name of some motorcycle shop or something on it And I got my big Harley belt on and Harley earrings and stuff and And I'm meeting this guy and we start having an argument because he says I can't wear my bra He took to the meeting. You know, I'm not a biker Yeah, I didn't know I wouldn't yeah, I wouldn't think of that And at the time I think I was 36, you know and the body starts giving a little And I didn't want my I didn't want my sagging boobs going in for me But that's but that's like the kind of detail that the authenticity right that that that would give you away So yeah, that's a really interesting I mean it was the stupidest damn thing, but it still resonates with me because You know, it's just one of these funny little things that happen um But I I did go in there, you know and did very well and then we brought in another undercover agent and we went down into the southeast and Then he basically took over had to take over the investigation because once we went down Into the clubhouse down and we flew down into florida Because I had probably one of the biggest Um The thing more than honestly anything in life The worst thing that ever could have happened to me my beloved best friend lennie gillman died and um I don't know if you guys remember him. Lenny gillman was the u.s. Attorney. He's a he's a prosecutor Leonard gillman Yeah, yeah, and uh, he was The best friend I never had in my entire life And I got the call. I was down there going undercover and uh They called me because it was on the national news and I just talked to him the day before actually I talked to him And then two hours later he went into a coma and died and that that uh I don't think lennie has ever gotten the credit Do him for the wonderful work he did and more than anything the wonderful human being lennie gillman was Lenny taught me about compassion He taught me humility. He taught me honor. He was such a fine man So I came back up for that and then the next thing I know We've got the biker thing going and I get a call from a guy who's got a coke problem And I mean he is into the mob for thousands of dollars And so that started my journey on the mafia. So where was kind of your entry point with the detroit italian group? I know you eventually made your way into Billy jackaloni's crew, uh, just to give some context Uh, the jackaloni brothers were the street bosses of the detroit mob. They ran day-to-day affairs for the toko It's a really crime family from the 50s into the 2000s. They were really the the faces of the franchise Tony jack was the older brother. Billy jack was the younger brother, but they were both um, very uh Equally formidable And they both they both kind of ran their own crews and patty's going to tell us about Kind of getting in deep with a lot of billy jacks guys Well, it was really interesting because the guy that this informant was into is the guy by the name of tom knight can i ght And tom knight, um, i'm thinking what the clock restaurant scott. Is that what i said? Yeah, there was a the clock restaurant for for people that are let's say are under the age of 50 They probably don't remember. I don't I don't remember the clock restaurant But I do know that there was a chain a very popular chain of 24 hour I don't think it was a diner. It was more of like a what like the ram's horn is now or You know kind of like a half restaurant half coney island type spot and They were all around metro detroit Of the individual clock restaurants. So yes, the tom knight was one of the majority owners of that franchise Yeah, I just wasn't sure if that was the name but that that does ring true now Let me just add one more thing based on knight's ownership of the chain I believe a number of made members of the mafia in detroit had Ownership interests in some of the clock restaurants. I never even heard of that See that makes sense because what I was told was Anytime somebody gets out on Parole they're all working at the clock restaurant because you know, they have to Show that they have a job and and that was you know, that's what it was so I met tom knight and And did a coke deal with I don't remember if it was one or two now with him And at the same time I met a guy named a meryl steers And I don't know if he would have been up on any of your radar, but he was He was kind of I think kind of a hang along his father apparently they owned a big A Spirit's warehouse, which would make sense again, you know with the mob and everything it was a big beer wine and alcohol warehouse And that's how I met meryl seers And interestingly enough meryl asked to meet with me when his with his attorney when he was under, you know arrest and They were going through I think he was pleading and he asked to meet with me And I'll never forget this because he was a sweet guy. I mean, he was a sweet guy You know, you never got any what in the knucklehead at all He said in front of his lawyer when I get out of jail. Will you marry me? And I'll never forget I'll never forget that and I do want to share that You know, that's kind of an anecdote as to what happens if you you're working undercover a lot You really do meet all types and and not everybody is an asshole to be honest with you, you know But anyway, well, so then I met fred collel through tom night and do you guys know about fred collel? Yeah, so fred collel was a I believe he was lebanese or syrian Uh was a big time drug dealer In metro detroit was hooked up with the jackalones and then around collel were a number of other Middle eastern and jewish Drug figures that were also gambling figures in the jackalones orbit But the jackalones were always very smart The way they handled the the drug dealing and the fact that they were always this was kind of a A hallmark of of detroit mob crews Always very insulated or there would be three four people removed from those deals Remember will he cheat you there's yes, there's a lot of buffers Buttons and the godfather press a button on a guy So Yes collel was in that orbit and a lot of those guys were using A very prominent jewish mob figure by the name of alan health who they called the general They were using health as the go-between Uh for themselves and the jackalones Yeah, absolutely and and fred said was such an interesting little guy Scott knows i've started writing a non-fiction book Call i'm the working title is the nature of an undercover because i'm not trying to get out subject But the opening part is about me doing surveillance on fred to get a kind of an idea of what he's about Before going undercover with them because i used to do that would drive my supervisor crazy But i wanted to you could get a read on people or a beat as we used to say in the business You get a beat on somebody and understand what they're like and he was a short little guy very dapper And just walked with all the confidence in the world, you know But i so i got involved with him and and uh buying off of him and from him I got into the silent woman Which of course an eight mile road which we later seized My partner i had transferred out here my partner actually seized the silent woman did the case on it It was a big hot spot for for drug dealers. It was like a strip club Uh that a lot of drug deals would go down at the mob was heavily involved there and thank finessa Mentioned yeah, it was one of those early eight mile strip clubs now If you come to detroit now and you go an eight mile, there's a strip club literally like every five feet I mean it's a strip club strip club central for for the midwest And i'm talking about you know 10 15 miles of just strip club after strip club after strip club But back in the 80s said late 70s early 80s There was just a Handful of them that that marked eight mile and the silent woman was one of the most popular And I know that billy jack aloney if we're talking about the jack aloney crew billy jack aloney was Someone that was extorting the silent woman and was either him or his Enforcers collectors were going there on the bomb and the bomb and bobby lapuma and ronnie mirelli They were all going in there to collect. You know how I described it It was like the bar scene in the movie star wars with job of the hut and all the weird And I mean and and I'm going to jump off and tell you because I Because I want to tell you how I met al-haydi because he was interested in instrumental And introducing you to people but I want I got to tell you about the silent woman now. I think Uh, if that's okay to kind of kind of stay on it. So red collow bobby lapuma um allen hill Pete comatayo Um, I'm trying to think close. They were all regulars there So I had created a persona. Thanks to meeting al-haydi. He kind of planted the thing in my mind I had to come up Well, I'll tell you that I met him. What was it the golden mushroom? Was that the name of it? I think in south field the golden mushroom is on like 12 in south field, uh, I believe and um Yeah al-haydi for for for anyone that doesn't recognize the name al-haydi Was a bartender and driver for billy jackaloni very very close To uh to billy and uh was was someone that would often run interference for him Yeah, he he was and when I when I was with him and that's how I met the son It was almost I got the impression that he was teaching like teaching the kid the ropes almost kind of I could be wrong and then at that time in the 80s right at the corner of 12 and South field you had the golden mushroom, which was a A fancy restaurant that these guys like to post up at would be the the northeast corner and then if you went to the Southeast corner There was dimetries, which was another hangout. So they would just kind of go Back and forth Across south field road and either be at at dimetries or or the golden mushroom That was a big hangout for billy jackaloni's guys bobby lapuma al-haydi Jackie jackaloni who's billy son who's now the reputed boss All used to be cool on the weekends. They used to be uh at the golden mushroom and dimetries This is so cool because for me I have snippets of relationship And you know the whole the history so that it's Frankly for me. It's really cool. You know, you know, you and I've talked quite a bit scott To get the background on it because you know, I was just in there trying to do my thing and not get hurt You know, but al-haydi took a liking to you though, right? He did and it was the weirdest thing but see this is this is the thing about the mob And about organized crime And hollywood no, I'm just kidding. But you know the business thing is it's do you know this person? Okay, if somebody knows you and knows you and spouts just for you Then I'm not going to see your golden right away, but you're on the path So I started going into the golden mushroom after I'd done a deal with tom Come night and hanging at the bar and talking to the female bartenders and just shooting the shit and stuff and uh So one day I went in there And al-haydi was there and and I didn't know who he was at the time. I knew who al-haydi was But I didn't know that that was he so anyway, I start talking to her and the next thing she obviously gave him the heads up, you know And um, he came and started talking to me and I looked down at his hand And he had a diamond ring on his right pinky I think it was pinky and it was all it was a h and big ass diamonds I mean like, you know at least quarter of a care on each diamond and uh You name is trying to impress me and I said so what do you do? You know, so i'm not going to say i'm a drug dealer because that's what a cop would say, you know, it's stupid So, um, you know, that's not how it works. So I said, well, I do property management. I have my own properties I'm going through divorce and you know and all this stuff So he sends me to the phone. He says I want you to talk to my friend So he has me call That what's the brother is it billy jack alone who he said really I was told really wasn't in the business No, that would have been jad probably would have been jack jack aloney the other jack jack aloney who was Tony's son who really wasn't that Involved, okay So he asked me talking to this guy on the phone and I mean i'm just swinging it, you know And and he's giving me all this advice and everything and I thought it was really nice And then al-haydi, you know wanted to get together and all this stuff So I started a friendship with al-haydi And and this was the really really difficult part Because and I get so pissed That you don't screw Your descendants. It's called entrapment. You know And so it was a very very delicate relationship and later on he even asked me to go down to Just the gold coast down in miami. Is that what they call it? Yeah Yeah He asked me to go down there with him. They were having a big thing I think that's where old man jack aloney was staying. He was staying out of state Yeah, they both uh, both Tony and billy had uh, residences and on the gold coast and would be there like half the year Yeah, so and and of course we wanted me to go Uh, but you know, what can you do? I mean, this isn't going anywhere good and I dented him off as much as humanly possible So I couldn't go down with him. I must say before I must say one thing is is al-haydi Was a gentleman. You know what I mean? I mean, he was not a knucklehead any time that I was around him he I never got that feeling from him at all and I remember what one point it came out, you know, that He'd be in a drug dealer and I'll never forget. He said to me He said, you know, if it was anywhere but Detroit He wouldn't be allowed to do anything without us giving you the okay But the inference was at the time that they weren't really doing a lot in drugs I mean, I don't know if that's that's true or not, but I know he was really They were giving that a lot of lip service, but I think On the back end of a lot of that lip service was Well, we'll still take an envelope And we might know that that envelope is coming from drug dealing But just don't tell us that envelope is coming from drug dealing so we can kind of play this this role of blissful ignorance or intentional ignorance But there's no doubt that the the jackalones were doing a lot of drug remember they would say oh, I see loan sharkings been very Yeah, very prosperous this Let me let me also I want to backtrack for for one quick second The golden mushroom and dimetries were on 10 in Southfield not 12 in Southfield So I don't know why I was saying 12. But yeah, it was 10 mile in Southfield road golden mushroom was on the north east corner and the Dimetries was was on the southwest corner Sorry, I just wanted to correct that because I know that there was going to be people that lived in detroit And remember the golden mushroom and they're always on 12 miles That was on 10 mile Sorry, but the golden mushroom by the time I was in college the golden mushroom was gone but I remember as a kid uh going to the golden mushroom for um Like uh, you know special special occasions So talk about building that case that Eventually takes down bobby lapuma and some other jackaloni affiliated organized crime figures, but never actually touch the jackalones Well, I have to be honest with you I I was not that that in that big of a way bringing them down Um, I spent a lot of time undercover on him. I was there when peep cavatio was executed Yeah, peep cavatio was murdered in july of 1985 Was the last made member of the mafia in detroit to be killed gangland style Uh, they called him fast peat or peat the baker. Um was known as a um, they called him fast peat because he lived fast someone that was known to uh Sleep with a lot of guys wives that he shouldn't be and and ripping guys off in drug deals Um, he was being protected by his brother-in-law Dominic, uh detroit fats carato Uh, and then it wasn't a coincidence that uh fats carato died the last week of june 1985 and uh within 10 days, I believe peep cavatio was killed Once fats carato was out of the picture, um, the the sharks began circling And uh and ended up killing cavatio, but uh, yeah, so that would have been 80 summer of 85 And and what I what I got from them because I'll never forget because I you know We would all sit together at the silent woman and he had this girlfriend. I can't I can't remember. I think her name was carol. Uh, it was kind of a new girlfriend. Um But but we were all together, but I'll never forget right after he was killed or shortly thereafter you know, so of course I went into the silent woman with the gang and um and uh She was there and she was boo-hoin and she went to go to the bathroom and I started to get up and Probably lapoma said leave her alone. She's probably the one that killed them. Which of course is bullshit Wow, and we I'll tell you what what we do know At least based on fbi informants even though no one's ever been charged with the cavatio hit It did read that the the indictment did reach a grand jury stage back, um In the 90s But the star witness ended up recanting his testimony. They almost charged that case but fbi informants have been really adamant uh over the last 35 years that the billy jackaloni crew was in charge of of organizing and carrying out the the peak cavatio murder What they had told me and I think uh, you know, we talked about it Is he had been doing layoff betting and he didn't have approval He was doing a lot of stuff. He shouldn't have been doing You know dating back 20 years before he was killed. Uh, there was fbi documents back in the 60s recalling that members of of The family going to the higher ups and asking permission To kill cavatio in the 60s and 70s But the answer was always you couldn't do it because he was protected by his best friend dominant carato Who he was married to a dominant carato sister? Sparky carato? No That's yeah, yeah So he was married to fat's sister. He was married. Sparky was the generation above right cavatio So fat's his carato sister was married to peak cavatio So he was brother cavatio was brother-in-laws with uh detroit fat's carato and tony the bull carato Fat's carato loved peak cavatio was like best friends with the guy and and wanted to protect him tony the bull on the other hand had no love for um For for peak cavatio and I heard that the order to kill cavatio actually came at The wake for dominant carato tony the bull comes in to his own brother's wake and Calls a couple people do a meeting in the back of a funeral home and says all right now We're getting rid of my brother-in-law. Wow Wow, you know, I gotta say as an excise as an aside, excuse me for saying so but him with the ladies I never saw these deal Maybe maybe that was more of like in the 60s and in his younger days I definitely know he had a reputation of sleeping with guys wives when they went to prison He was a pretty frumpy guy. I I want to share I want to share a story with you That I think you'll get a kick out of because I know we don't have much time right now but I also have a great resource for Uh, I'd like like to hook you up with that I think could give you a great interview about that that takedown And he's my old partner and my junior partner who Junior name only because he was in Detroit cop first and I want to hook you up with him He and I are still in touch and he's the one that did the paper Because I know that we had some dirty cops that were arrested as part of it Uh, the silent woman there was city kickbacks. I think it was southfield that I have to look into it But this is the great. This is just a great. I just I need to share this with you So candy davidson, we know who he was so candy davidson was uh another jackaloni Associate, uh, was a purple gang Jewish mobster, uh from the 20s and 30s that by the 70s and 80s was a geriatric But was still dabbling in drug affairs and mob affairs actually took a drug case I believe in 88 But was one of the last last remnants of the purple gang to be operating in the detroit organized crime orbit He actually also had a case in 1978 I was a brand new agent and uh So they arrested him on he had he was paying some guy to manufacture. I think it was pcp And they busted him and they called me in because kiss of death when I was a detective They sent me to fbi fingerprint school So that was everybody's excuse for me to come and do the fingerprints because they'd be done right They just didn't want to do them, but it's okay. I get it And so I was brought in as a young agent 27 years old to fingerprint candy davidson And I'll never forget it. He had a pale blue leisure suit on dressed to the night You know And the agent was like trying to pump him. He went a snitch and this Agent was not full of finesse. He was a good agent, but you know not talking to mobsters He was not he was more of a book book agent rather than a straight agent And he kept bugging candy and finally candy just looked at him. He said, you know who I am, right? You know where I've been. You know who I'm with Well, you know, I ain't gonna say anything. So let's just get on with it and take me to jail Okay So fast forward. I think it was 1987. I think Candy davidson is getting out of prison. I'm bobby lapoma is picking him up. Okay And they're having this huge party for him at an italian restaurant When in detroit it was in the western suburbs, I'll come up with it again, you can't have any surveillance Okay, there's absolutely you can't in these places. You never have any surveillance Um And al-haydi invited me to go And some of the other guys had girlfriends, but once the lunch started everybody left but me Yeah, he wanted me to stay and I was nervous because I put the cuffs on this guy and took him down to 13 You're boby and you're thinking he could recognize you. Yeah, I'm scared to death and I got I got nobody I mean, I'm I'm on my own, you know And I remember the restaurant was it was a mob of mob restaurant, you know, it was very closed in You know, I mean and nobody was there and they had the whole restaurant for this And so candy davidson they bring him in and there's this whole table full of mobsters and stuff and he walks by me and he looks at me And he goes and he gets seated on the other side of al-haydi He's looking at me and I was like man, this is it, you know goodbye to my parents, you This is my last moment and he never put it together But he knew he knew me, but he could never put it together and I tell you I was scared That was nuts. Wow But he was he was treated like royalty when he came out and bobby lapuma deferred to him a lot so let's talk about Your one major role in that bus was the fact that you introduced Frank panessa another one of your partners in in in the dea another legendary undercover officer that we actually had on a previous Episode of the og and we're going to have him on many more and we want to do one with the both of you guys talking about Working together, but you introduced frank into The jack-o-lanes by making an introduction to bobby lapuma and lapuma then introduced panessa To other members of the drug operation which ended up going down. I believe in 1988 Yeah, exactly what what and what what I did just just to tell you i'm i'm giving you little tidbits Maybe you don't need them about the nature of undercover because that was always my thing and I mean I learned I taught myself But what I did is I had a snitch introduced frank to bobby lapuma and then I introduced us together so frank and I met Because we both knew the mob, but I wanted us each to be clean So you know and then so then we were frank and I were like together But that was that was you that's a smarter way to do it because otherwise If I get burned frank gets burned because I brought frank in And at the same time it's vice versa and that's a other It's a great way to have each other's back as well. If you know what I mean. It's just a much smarter Way to do business. I guess just to put it to you that way describe bobby lapuma for a second For people that don't know bobby lapuma was kind of the the number one collector enforcer Quote on quote alleged hitman For for the jack-o-lanes. He was about six five Uh, didn't have any hair but had like a fu manchu mustache And was just very imposing. Would you say that's accurate? He was a presence he he was He was like the rock. Yeah, I mean, you know He he he really had a presence And when you were around him and I socialized with him a lot, you know at the silent woman in different places Um, I have a we have time. I have a quick funny story about him. You know, but anyway He he was kind of dark dark skin handsome, you know Well built his the way he carried himself You knew you weren't going to mess with that guy. I mean you just knew and when he spoke to you He Really you listened, you know, he was He everything about him was very firm and very planted and very intentional I know I never saw him cracking dibs. You never saw him crack a smile They called him the animal and I think one of the things that Pops in my head when I think about bobby lapuma. I think about a an episode that we did With a victim's brother of someone that lapuma might have been involved in in killing And lapuma had visited this victim, you know a week or two before He was murdered and had Vandalized his car and had threatened him and I'm like when you're reaching the point where bobby lapuma is coming to your business And putting his hands on you and putting his hands on your property It's at that point to either shut it down either seek help from law enforcement and go into witness protection Or get on the first plane to brazil Right That's def con for when bobby lapuma is coming to let you know that you're you're you're treading on thin ice Yeah, but um, so give us your quick and give us your quick lapuma anecdote So you remember the stabiles got executed. Yeah, that was in that same 1985 Uh, there was a rash of murders from like april to october. I think there was like somewhere were close to a dozen murders All mob related it was the last time that the detroit mob was very active in in ganglang hits And one of those murders was anthony stabio who was a bookmaker that was tied in To the jackalones and I believe they killed him and his wife Right. Yeah. I'm a farmer in the eastern market So real quick So I would spend a lot of time in the golden mushroom and after it went down I knew that I frankly had people doing surveillance on me because everybody knew the mob was in the restaurant And uh, so I was just in there having a glass of wine and stuff and this guy comes up pretending Like he's drunk In a suit, you know, I'm not saying he had wing tips, but uh, I don't know But he started pumping me about the murders because I had been designated and they figured out that I knew the mafia people And he was just on and on and on and on and he just so pissed me off And I finally just got up and said you should keep your fucking mouth shut You know and I went to another part of the restaurant And I was eating and bobby and roby warren who we haven't even talked about who Ran the silent woman. He was the manager for my golden gloves boxing champ They came in and hey trish, what's going on? And I said I gotta tell you about that guy over there He's asking about the stabiles, you know, and he's pumping in and bobby looks at me. He's okay, trish It's time for you to go. We'll handle it So I got up and left and when I did they were over leaning over the back now If I thought they were gonna hurt the guy in the restaurant, of course, I wouldn't have done that But it was it was just stupid You know, it was just a stupid scenario and I knew they were just gonna send him on his way So bobby lapuma as we're going to wrap up here trisha introduce frank panassa through one of her Informance to lapuma lapuma gets his hooks into the jackaloni crew via that introduction Fast forward a year. I believe It was spring of 1988 indictment comes down lapuma is nailed on a on a cocaine trafficking charge the case is tied into Comos restaurant who at the time the ownership of comos Um, some people that were connected to the ownership were involved in that bust Um, lapuma came out of prison. I think he did 10 15 years came out of prison was briefly back here in detroit Um, but is now living in retirement in colorado springs If he's listening how you doing bob come on and give us an interview But uh, he's he's still alive. Billy jackaloni has been dead for a long since 2012 Tony jackaloni died in 2001 al Haiti died at some point in the 90s or early 2000 So pretty much everyone we're talking about is gone alan health died in 14 But uh, your work obviously even though you weren't the one slapping the handcuffs on people Your work paid a lot of dividends because a lot of those guys that were surrounding the jackaloni brothers that were dealing drugs all went to prison and a lot of those, um Those operations were were brought down via via your your tireless work Can we do a part two of this? Thank you. Can we have you definitely need back on her back on with frank panessa We could have her on back on with the Detroit PD officer. She was talking about she is this has been Just an amazing interview that's just chock full with so much information so many great stories it's it it it's in the wheelhouse of of just talking about people overcoming the odds and and being a female in law enforcement and having The success that she was able to have is such a testament to the type of person she was and and really again just being a A trailblazer for women in law enforcement and and being someone that opens all these doors and and and provides opportunities by the roots that that she laid down back in the 1970s and that's just it's inspiring and Thank you so much for coming on the og You've done it all you've said it all you've lived a thousand lives and we're gonna have you back on to talk about More of your work and we just appreciate your Your your honesty and your forthrightness and and you're a great storyteller And you're just you know, everyone i've spoken to about you are always like that woman is a is a true superstar um and someone that That really sets the standard high for for any female that's trying to do what you did I I must say i'm sitting here with tears in my eyes because honestly i'm i'm very flattered The bottom line i will just say is i think we all have gifts And i found out this was my gift I think the hardest job on the planet right now is being a parent Raising and protecting children. I couldn't do it. We all just have our Nick and i'm grateful that I was able to find mine and I thank you so much for the opportunity I really enjoyed this. Thank you for letting us reminisce. Oh, no, and we're gonna do it more But when we end I want I want you to give just one one quick thought that's popping up in my head right now That I think is somewhat relevant We were talking a little bit about what happened with the capital riot back on january 6th And let let our audience know what a member of law enforcement a member of federal law enforcement sitting there watching Uh, the insanity on our television where our our capitals over on and taken over for the first time in in over 150 years Um, what what what is someone that that was at such a high level of law enforcement? What do you think in watching that I as I mentioned was a weapons and tactics instructor for dea and uh, I I actually Was the only female to sit on the formulation committee for the national trauma team That goes in and intervenes on shootings and kidnapping within murders and stuff and when I saw what was done to our own people I wanted to I wanted to pack my guns and go and fight to protect them in dc because I was afraid it was going to be Where more people were going to see this and jump in their trucks and stuff and head to dc I am so disgusted With what is going on in our country. We're killing our own first Responders and people who've served this country. We have got to stop and turn it around and think Stop listening to propaganda stop. This is horrible When she said that to me the other day it really resonated and it actually brought me back Uh till when I was watching it Unfold that that afternoon. I'm thinking to myself. What are people like patty? What are people that were federal law enforcement that are sitting here watching this? What are they thinking? So I got a a great opportunity to talk to patty about this and I thought it would be a great way to kind of end End our interview because I think that that probably speaks for a lot of the federal law enforcement that we're watching These historic times unfold in real time, you know, call me put me into service. I'll be there This was great. This was this definitely has to go down in the pantheon of all-time great og interviews in terms of The level of insight the uniqueness of the story the the pioneering nature of what she did patty noton You are a superstar. You're always welcome back here on the og We're gonna have you on a bunch more times patty. I are also working on something along with frank panessa out in california in the Scripted drama space. We got some real major players interested In pushing forth a scripted television drama. So we'll see where that goes Hopefully we'll see, you know patty and frank panessa's characters. We'll get like gal gadot to play To play patty and we'll get brad pit to play Frank panessa. We'll be off and running. Well, thank you so much patty. We gotta we gotta go Make sure people out there listening like us on facebook follow us on twitter Watch our youtube videos Keep spreading the word about the og podcast, please for jimmy butchillado patty naughton This is scott burnstein from the original gangsters podcast. We'll be back next week with fresh content. See you then out