 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today. I'm joined by my friend. Mr. Bill Rider bill Welcome to the show Hi Bart. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to join you today. Yes, so this is a really unique one Because you are a listener of the podcast And I'll say up front that you are a longtime drummer and you're a finance guy with Riverfront Investment Group and You have done extensive research on Ludwig's role in the history of plastic drum heads, which we all know and love today the mylar the plastic drum heads It's obviously the norm, but that wasn't always the case. That was Really really new technology and for folks that have listened to previous episodes about drum heads, which I've got a couple There's the Remo episode with Herbie May. There's history of drum heads with Ben O'Brien Smith There's the Jeff Stern episode about calfskin heads I Would say out of those Remo and Evans kind of episodes. This is kind of a hot-button topic people get a little aggressive over You know who did it first all that being said You're bringing a new angle which you have extensively researched about Ludwig So you're bringing Ludwig into the picture here and a lot of other details, which you've you've sent me itch. I have up over here so Bill let's dive in and Well first off Thank you so much for doing this and taking the time to create this and really researching it I think it's just awesome that you you put in that much work Well, I loved your Remo and Evans drum head episodes. I thought they were great and I'm a big fan of Jeff Stern And his as calfskin heads, too. I have I have a few of those and I highly recommend them Um, cool, but as I was thinking about all that I I kept wondering well, what about Ludwig? Um, I thought Ludwig plastic drum heads were great I started out as a Ludwig drummer in the 60s in the 1970s My first two drum head drum sets were Ludwigs I played on Ludwig heads most of the time as far as their sound goes I never thought they were any different from Rimos, especially in the 60s and 70s And occasionally I found that the Ludwig heads would work better on some drums For example, my Yamaha stainless steel snare drum worked better with a Ludwig rocker head on it than an ambassador Do really to the slightly shallower collar Ludwig would mold into their heads And for a long time a Ludwig heads were widely used from 1964 and into the 70s No one sold more drums than Ludwig And um, thus no one sold more drum drum heads than um, uh, Ludwig did too. They all came on Ludwig heads Yeah, as the Ludwig's dominance started to fade around the 7 mid 70s Remo became more and more popular Most of the newer drummer manufacturers were using Remo heads For example, I bought a five set in 1975 and I bought a Yamaha set in New Yamaha set in 1979 Both of those drum sets had their company logos on them But it it didn't take a Sherlock Holmes to look at the heads and go. Oh, yeah, they're Rimos Yeah Which there I want to I want to jump in and just say that like with with Ludwig Uh, it's interesting because I would have assumed that Ludwig was Ludwig was using Remo heads or something like that But but it's it's not like that where these other companies would obviously kind of like as they say like white label Like a drumhead where they slap their logo on it. Uh, that's not but that's not the case with Ludwig It's it's interesting that they took the harder routes of creating their own technology and um, And and and not just using yep another brand. Yeah Ludwig's other problem was you can only get them in a Ludwig music dealer store, right? And they were and Ludwig in those days would just have one dealer per town Meanwhile Remo heads were in all the music stores Sure Now Ludwig's main difference from Remo heads was the way Ludwig fastened the mylar to the flesh hoop Ludwig used what they called a mechanical interlock system, which they eventually branded as headlock And if I can describe that the outer flesh hoop was a j-shaped channel of aluminum Right, so after they got the mylar ready and molding the collar into the mylar The edge of the mylar was wrapped around a smaller metal ring Which was inserted to the j-shaped flesh hoop And then the outer flesh hoop was crimped around the square metal ring and the mylar locking the head in Ludwig guaranteed that the mylar would not pull out and in my experience. No Ludwig had ever pulled out of the flesh hoop However, the first 15 years or so of plastic heads I saw heads that were attached to the flesh hoop by epoxy resin the way Remo does it and even evans Pull out of the flesh hoop a few times Sometimes just the mylar would pull out once I saw the whole channel of epoxy resin Pull out of the aluminum flesh hoop. There was there was just the frame left. Wow I haven't seen anything like that Since the 70s Remo's original resin formula Has changed a lot over the years and they currently use different resins for various applications Like uh, they're very thick conga drum heads have one type and then their heads for world percussion have another Yeah, and let's remind people that we're we're soon going to get into this more um, that really the the kind of universally accepted uh Until I read actually what you have coming up Date would be about 1957. That was the you know The kind of like here's the day where we switched from calfskin or animal skin to to mylar With those with Remo and evans and stuff. So the first 15 years, they're still really figuring out this technology so for it to rip off That I mean drum heads in general you think to the people playing I remember my grandpa would talk about you know playing with the calfskin heads And it would be loosening and that's why they used to have light bulbs and drums to heat them up so I mean in general drum heads had a lot of uh, I don't want to call them problems, but quirks A lot of quirks, which we're still getting figured out after the invention of the mylar. It wasn't like an overnight thing Oh, yeah, but that raises the question because like I said, there's there's a lot of um Back and forth about who really, you know, was it evans? Was it Remo? But that that raises the question which you've you've You know, really nicely spelled out in your your outline, which I will put in the Description for this as much as I can because there's a lot you have a lot of great info but uh, the question then is who really deserves the credit for the plastic drum head Chemical engineers They deserve the lion's share of credit for plastic drum heads And if I may I'd like to mention a few names because we shouldn't forget these guys Um, lots of groundbreaking chemical engineering was going on in the 1920s and the 30s Especially with plastics and building on the research of Wallace co-rothers At dupont a u.s. Company in the late 1920s and the 30s two british chemists john rex winfield and james tenon dixon patented polyethylene terra phthalate Also called pet That was in 1941 which was the basis of synthetic fibers Winfield and dixon then along with some help created the first polyester fiber called terra lean also in 1941 And that was first manufactured by britain's imperial chemical industry Or sometimes you'll see them referred to as ici Now terra lean was created as a substitute for cellulose film used by Allied reconnaissance aircraft doing wartime surveillance work The cellulose film was prone to breaking which would ruin the whole mission So britain's war department requested an all-out effort from the chemical engineers to create a movie film That would be impervious to heat and cold during reconnaissance flights Dupont purchased the u.s. rights to terra lean in 1945 for further development And dupont's polyester research led to a whole range of trade trademark products The second polyester fiber was dupont's daekran introduced in 1950 and then dupont introduced mylar in 1952 And the surprise for me was even at that time 1952 Dupont stated that one of the applications could be as a drum head Wow In 1955 eastman kodak used mylar as a support for photographic film and cameras And then that was quickly adopted for motion picture film in the industry Audio recording tape that's used as mylar as a background weather balloons and even spacesuits spacesuits for goodness sake five layers of metallized mylar fiber Film were in nasa's spacesuits made them radiation resistant and helped regulate temperature for the 1969 moon mission Wow, I mean that timeline that you mentioned just early on obviously when you hear Something's being invented in 1941. Yeah, it's for the war effort. I mean so much Innovation comes Globally, I mean we're talking in in in britain and all over For that war effort and I remember seeing from one of those previous episodes doing a little research where it talks about the the film for reconnaissance where it needs to be in the The various the heat and the cold and again just so people can visualize it That's because it's like a camera hanging on the bottom of an airplane that would be Like a u2 or something like that which would be like a reconnaissance plane and for the history buffs out there I'm sure that's Probably a different era or something what I mean, but you know what I mean. It's a reconnaissance plane but Very very neat that that it all starts with that and then gets taken and then turned into drum heads and motion picture film and studio record like two inch tape and And spacesuits. I mean so really the drumhead You know inventing and moving forward with that technology Kind of small potatoes when compared to the mission, you know to the moon and things like that but but every industry really Gained a lot from that invention from these chemical engineers who we're talking about Well, the drumhead thing started with another chemical engineer by the name of jim urwin He worked for a not dupont, but 3m But you know chemical engineers are like drummers right they talk and Yeah, jim jim urwin was the first to use mylar as a drumhead He had started working with polyester film at 3m in the mid 1940s and around 1952 or 53 He went to see his brother's band at the cafe metropole in new york city. It's a famous old club Duke ellingtons former drummer sonny greer was playing in his brother's band Sonny broke a drumhead that night and jim jim told him that he thought he could make a head that wouldn't break So jim goes back to uh, minnesota Made one up by serrating the edge of a piece of mylar So it could be bent around and attached to the flesh hoop of a calf's skin head He was kind of tucking it right. Yeah, sure. So jim takes it back to sonny in new york who uses it and Uh proclaims it's the best heavy head he ever played on Wow jim had no desire to commercially produce drumheads But he did approach some of the major drum manufacturers with this idea. He was a chemical engineer Now around 1953 A guy named joe grolemond at selmar switched saxphone pad production to mylar because Of its moisture resistant qualities, you know saxphones or get all wet inside That's why i didn't play them No, and and then joe started experimenting with mylar for drumheads His head was made by tacking polyester film to a flesh hoop Now joe who was also a drummer was ludwig's first advertising manager in the late 1920s And then moved on to work for selmar in 1930 as their advertising manager Eventually becoming selmar's second president He was quite a guy He developed a mail campaign which kept selmar profitable throughout the great depression While most companies were laying people off selmar more than doubled its staff in two years And in 1936 while other manufacturers were still selling to individual retail stores Selmar at joe's insistence switched to a policy of only selling wholesale This is welcomed by all the dealers. We still see it today boosted selmar's sales significantly And uh Final thing about joe is in 1966 as he was president of selmar joe offered to buy the ludwig drum company in 66 I know it's crazy, right going back to the sunny greer thing where it was uh, it was 1952 Correct or 1952 53 52 53 which again is like five ish years let's say five years before the kind of accepted Initial creation of the mylar heads that that rimo and evans and stuff So it really kind of throws a wrench in that that uh, who did it first? Um, yeah, which really goes back to that chemical engineer Those guys did it first. Uh, it's pretty amazing. Yep by the mid 1950s though Slingerlin and ludwig had both become interested in mylar Both of those companies showed it to rimo But he said and and they told rimo. We don't have the slightest idea what to do with this And at the time mid 1950s rimo wished him luck, but wasn't interested at the time So joe grolement and chick evans sent ludwig the company the first mylar heads ludwig's company had ever seen Tacked or stapled toward hoops They were weatherproof and performed well on a drum If you didn't over tighten the heads which caused the mylar to pull away from the flesh hoop So according to bill ludwig jr. Who claims in his book that jimmerwin joe grolement ludwig and slingerland Had the idea of using mylar before evans joe suggested to ludwig jr. That they tried to develop his idea But jr. Wasn't convinced and nothing really happened until jr. Found out that someone else was going to show a mylar head at a trade show Then according to joe A jr. Got excited and got one together for the show Now jumping to the time frame you were speaking about bart Chick evans filed his patent in 1956 and in march of 1957 He sent a letter announcing his new heads to dealers Including drum city in california, which was half owned by rimo But by early 1957 rimo and this guy gets a lot of credit too a chemist named sam muchnik Had developed the first version of a mylar drum head that didn't tack To the flesh or staple to the flesh hoop Back in the old days when those heads would pull out at the very edge of the mylar They're little holes all around the edge of the head. Have you ever seen that? I I think so. I mean and little holes on yeah, yeah, which which was brilliant On on on rimo and sam's side because it really anchored The mylar to the to the flesh hoop Rimo attended the tri-state music festival in oklahoma where he showed his head to ludwig jr. Among others and jr. Told him remember this is 57 that his company had been trying to create a plastic head as well By june of 57 rimo incorporated the company was created to market their aluminum channel drum heads And as you referred to ludwig became one of rimo's first oem original equipment manufacturer customers 1957 with more to follow including slingerland. It's interesting. I know Uh now according to william f ludwig senior I I have an old booklet that he wrote about his about his story It's it's a really neat little thing, but I was interested to see his comments and According to ludwig senior 1957 and 58 were the years of plastic head development at ludwig's drum company Ludwig also tried tacking stapling mylar onto the wood flush hoops They tried hot and colder Adhesives chemical mixture mixtures all of which ludwig found to be unliable Now ludwig senior visited basal switzerland in 1958 He was uh, he's had a big vacation He visited his hometown in germany and he stopped by basal switzerland, which uh, one of your great episodes a couple of months ago It's a huge drum center, right? Yeah with edith. That was very exciting episode. Yeah While he was in basal ludwig senior stops by the drum shop of oscar bower Who was using mylar to make 14 inch high tension heads for the basal drums? bower had a method for crimping the edge of the mylar onto the flesh hoop, but he never filed a patent for his design rimo claims to have seen this dry crimp design before ludwig senior And rimo said the design had its flaws because it wouldn't make a good sounding two ply drum head So he passed on it. Hmm After senior comes back to the united states junior finds his father in his office Bending the long leg of a channeled aluminum hoop over an inner hoop in the channel holding mylar with pliers And um came up with their version of that head Ludwig got a patent on this process Which was immediately copied by bud slingerland, right? um And the debut of plastic heads for ludwig and slingerland was in the both of their catalogs in 1960 So uh, that's that's the first catalog where ludwig and slingerland Advertised promoted their own heads using this crimped method. So before that a couple years So they did do the the white label oem kind of uh, yes, you know They used rimo heads for a little bit and then went to making their own which You know now it's almost interesting that you you you don't think so much about a company like ludwig nowadays coming out and saying um We're gonna make new drum heads, but you you have you have companies like zilgen who become drumstick manufacturers kind of in the most in recent history the last 10 15 20 years whatever so, um It's that's just an interesting parallel. I was thinking it was like man I can't imagine a company like yamaha or whatever coming out with their own drum heads today But that being said in like the stick realm and various things people do do that. So it's not that outlandish No, and it was uh, it was a brave new world then, you know of this new technology. So In in some alternate universe Ludwig could still be making some of the best drum heads and uh, you know what? I mean like it could have gone another way and they could have kept making them and and been a major player But um, it's interesting how that how that worked out Well, you'll see why in a little while that It didn't go that way for ludwig. It could have yeah, sure Ludwig ramped up quickly They built a two-story standalone brick building on two cleared lots behind their factory on damon avenue to produce mylar heads Ludwig designed and built 24 high compression presses which heated and formed the mylar into drum heads of all sizes and then by 1964 The year of the ringo ludwig doubled the size of their headmaking facility Connected it to their main plan and standalone building next door peak production for ludwig drum heads was like 3 000 a day And most importantly to your point part their ability to fill their own drum head needs at their damon avenue factory Was a huge advantage for their production In the old days it was hard to find enough quality calfskin heads to mount on all the Drums they produced so sometimes they'd have shells lying over it to the side until they were able to find the calfskin heads They needed So this was a huge production advantage for ludwig which helped themselves So many drums back in their golden days Now from from you being like a drummer in that that that era obviously well before that was before my time Were you as like a drummer aware at that time that you were playing ludwig drum heads? Or were you just more these are just drum heads if that makes sense like like did were they really advertising that this is our own brand This is our own formula. Yes. Um, I was aware of them and uh This might be a whole nother episode someday, but I we loved drum catalogs in those days They were like gold I would collect them from music stores and you know the music store. I was their kid, right? So I wouldn't walk in in with hundreds of bucks So the music stores sometimes didn't want to just give them away, but I have a wonderful collection of drum head I mean drum catalogs and Not and I think I sent you the uh some images But in the 1962 catalog Ludwig proudly showed what they were doing that uh mechanical interlock system And touted it highly as superior to the other ways of doing it including rimo and evans And as I said, uh Those those epoxy heads would pull out sometimes and ludwig wouldn't let you forget it, right? So, um The sound of the mylar itself I don't you know, I don't know. Yeah, you need to put a spectral analysis on that To really make Scientific claims. Yeah, you know a lot of claims are made in the on acoustics of drums that uh, you know, it sounds good But yeah, you got any data on that for me besides, you know, someone's ears. Yeah, there's a lot of uh, that's come up in multiple episodes Like I remember jeff kersh talked about it in his where it's it's the and so did steel turkington where it's it's the buzzword Uh marketing buzzwords are very popular in drum marketing where I mean, we we love hearing buzzwords. We love hearing about uh, Very bearing edges and this and that but so again, what you're saying though is just to really kind of like clarify everything is the the reason people you and other people really love these is the The crimping technology because it's not like you said plastic is plastic where That is what it is. But but it's the it's the technology that went into it that made it really, uh important in the history Yeah, and people were slow to move to Plastic heads at first in the early 60s and even later in the 60s, you know, my drum teachers who had been around for a while Yeah, they they were still using calf heads on their snare drums. Those heads last a long time Uh in schools my elementary school. I mean, they there were big plastic I'm caskin heads on the bass drums and those sound great Yeah, so it it took a while for people to move over and um One of the things you worry about was the the head the mylar pulling out of the flesh hoop And uh for the epoxy heads Occasionally that was a problem. Um, Ludwigs did they did not do that Uh, I think I might have taken a set of uh pliers or something to an old head to take it apart Just to see what they were doing but now, uh, the Ludwig heads did not pull out and um, you know Uh, as I said my first two sets were Ludwigs and of course the Ludwig heads came with them So I was a happy user of those Ludwig heads But they did take a while to get going Ludwig jr. What what a guy. I'm sorry. I missed him. He did a terrific job of promoting these new heads in the early 60s For example during a drum and bugle contest that was halted by a big downpour He straps on a parade drum marches down the field playing his drum The drum sounds just as good in one end. I want us to did the first end zone, right? People were amazed Sometimes he'd show up to whatever and throw a snare drum into a vat of water Right and of course, everyone's aghast so bill Ludwig jr. Pulls it out wipes it down And plays it the head sounds like nothing ever happened. Yeah Sometimes the guy would even drop a bowling ball four feet onto the plastic head The ball would bounce back in his arms and uh, the audiences loved it But the head would get dished, right? Yeah, of course So then jr. Would pull out a hair curler and takes out the dent We used to do that a lot years ago. Did you ever take out a dent of a plastic head with some heating device? No, but I've I've seen that happen in videos. I've never had a reason to do it and I've also seen the like how you can wipe them off with uh Don't people use like vinegar or something to remove the like I remember at guitar center when I worked there people would do that but no, but it's cool how you can do that with the um Popping out of the dent my hands. Yeah. Yeah. Yep This episode is brought to you by dream symbols I want to talk a little bit about the dream symbols recycling program The recycling program is simple bring your broken or unwanted symbols all brands accepted into your local dream dealer And you can earn one dollar for every inch of symbol you bring in towards the purchase of a new dream symbol For example, bring in two 20 inch symbols for recycling and receive 40 dollars off the price of a new dream symbol It's that easy They in turn take the symbols recycled and use them to create new products like the re effects crop circles and the naughty saucers Check them out online at dream symbols.com and follow them on social media at dream symbols So marching drum units were really the biggest early adopters of the mylar heads Ludwig invested heavily in heavy ply mylar Started eventually gluing two sheets together and what quickly became known as mylar parade heads Slingerland came out with their own plastic heads soon after Ludwig's head hit the market And there was no doubt Slingerland was copying the way the Ludwig heads were made What was it basically the same thing or would it be slightly different? I mean because they're famous for going in each other's Garbage cans and pulling things out and reverse engineering. So it was the same thing. Here's what they did Slingerland's chicago factory Didn't have much success duplicating the Ludwig head So bud Slingerland takes the Ludwig head to a guy named William Connor Who owned a machine shop in Shelbyville, Tennessee and asked him to copy it Around 1959 Slingerland started making about a thousand plastic heads a day According to Connor and he sold his shop to Slingerland which called the company solar Around 1962 Connor gets a visit from William F. Ludwig senior He comes to Connor's shop tells Connor they shouldn't be making heads since he had a patent Connor says he was aware of the patent, but understood there were problems with the patent and believed he was in the clear Connor said, you know, mr. Ludwig senior was very nice and court polite Didn't wasn't angry But a month or so later Connor was served with papers to appear in federal court The case took about a year to come to trial the trial lasted about five days But Slingerland admitted to the court that he told his people to copy Ludwig's design But claimed the Ludwig patent was invalid because of prior art But as bud Slingerland had heard the story that Ludwig senior had seen this type of drumhead in Switzerland A couple of years earlier before Ludwig filed his patent during the course of the trial both But uh, bud Slingerland and Ludwig jr. Went to switzerland went to oscar bowers shop And were attempting to determine what had been seen what had been discussed back in 1958 Statements were entered to the for the trial in zürich switzerland at the american consulate The nashville judge ultimately supported bud Slingerland's claim that the patent should not have been issued because of prior art So this this whole mess cost Ludwig 180 000 dollars Which would be 1.6 million in today's dollars And that's when the mechanical interlock system became common property of the industry Um before I close the book on william connor, uh, I wanted to tell you today Most drum companies including those in taiwan korea and china now supply drumheads with interlocking hoops These crimped heads are cheaper than resin heads to produce because there are fewer steps needed In during their production and they don't require any specialty chemical processes or expertise Remo has a manufacturing facility in taiwan Simply because it's more cost-effective to be close to all those asian drum makers. Yeah Remo also makes crimped heads in the us Jumping back for just a second to william connor Uh connor thought the whole lawsuit between Ludwig and Slingerland could have been avoided If both sides had just agreed to share the technology Let Ludwig's patents stand Slingerland could have a licensing agreement. Everyone could be happy But bud Slingerland was determined to destroy the patent Connery even says Slingerland and Ludwig jr. Nearly came to blows during several negotiation attempts And as I was doing this research bart I mean one of the one of my favorite things about your podcast over the last few years is learning how much Ludwig and Slingerland hated each other Very passionately talking about it before. Yeah, I mean they were rummaging through each other's garbage To see in the middle of the night, right? Yeah And it strikes me that fighting over drum heads Really played a large role in starting this whole Ludwig Slingerland 50 year feud back in the 1920s Right, you gotta remember the big drum companies were based in or near chicago Because chicago was a big center for the cattle industry all those ship all those Cattle lonesome dove, right coming up from the middle of the country. They wind up in the chicago stockyards And that's where the heights for caskin heads were There were great variations in the quality of these skins, right? It took an experienced buyer Usually Ludwig senior or henry Slingerland buds dad, right to go carefully look at the heads for imperfections like salt stains scars Yeah, yeah, you know backs pinholes So these drum companies especially Slingerland and Ludwig aggressively competed to be the first to the stockyards When new shipments arrive and they didn't like it when they were not first That's because providing the best calfskin heads was a major selling point for these drum companies and a source of pride for both Ludwig and Slingerland plus As I alluded to before sometimes these drum companies couldn't get enough skins enough Good skins to finish their drums. So all of a sudden they have backlogs, right? They got shells all ready to go that you just need to put a head on it Yeah, which uh, which basically though what you said before about now Ludwig can have their own Factory and and supply their own drums with the heads is amazing and and I also want to just say too so that that hatred between Slingerland and Ludwig like if they took this patent and like you said if it went the other way where Ludwig would have kept the patent and Slingerland would have just been able to license it or whatever And if if it didn't go the way it did where the patent was like dissolved And then everyone could use this technology kind of in the open That that Feud caused it so no one can no one can have the right to it now It opened up the floodgates to it just being free range just go ahead and use it as opposed to just these two companies But they just could not work together. Yeah. Yeah, and you know This thought just struck me Bart, but once again my good education from the drum history podcast If if Ludwig and Slingerland had behaved themselves It might have put the kibosh on all those japanese stencil drums That flooded our country in the late 70s in the 70s or late 60s early 70s because they wouldn't have had Those crimp had the availability of those crimped drum heads. Yeah But once the patent was broken and it became common property of the industry You know katie bar the doors. Yeah, we got a flood of japanese stencil drums, which Plays a large role in killing off Ludwig and Slingerland Now Ludwig kept at it for quite a while In 1971 Ludwig expanded their drum headline by offering several more thicknesses and also That year in attempt to differentiate themselves from rimo Instead of using mylar Ludwig started using a film called thermoline Which is in the catalog you could see This was the same type of polyester film as mylar, but it wasn't produced by dupont My suspicion is they went back to ici in britain, right? Who had terraline Ludwig threw in an h in the name So what Ludwig was sourcing their their mylar or thermoline from someone else so they can say well, we're different from rima Ludwig said that thermoline was discovered in 1941. Yeah, it was and then later developed and applied Exclusively by Ludwig. This is advertising talk to drumhead destruction. Yes. So true Well, that's what you do, right? Yeah In 1973 Ludwig introduced their ti series of heads in which special treatment Ooh was applied to the underside of the head to give it and this is more advertising talk More tonal center and eliminate unwanted partials in the overturned series Which drummers would read as yeah get rid of the ringy stuff Yeah This was also about the same time that what a coincidence, right that rimo starts offering their black dot heads Which became popular early 70s Ludwig's 1980 catalog introduced silver dot drum heads And then they expanded their lines and introduced heads for every kind of music, right? So they offered rockers By the 80s, we knew rock and roll was here to stay. Yes, right. They offered strikers For marching they offered groovers for jazz and ensemble for concert. So they had four different lines of drum heads Groovers were actually the same as ensemble. So they they were mostly gone in 1983 Rockers and striders those heads those brands continued Through 1998 but were then changed to weathermasters because it was Because it was too expensive to make different boxes for every kind of head Yeah, this is from jim, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jim catalano, obviously, which yeah, yeah Jim is great. I I hope one day he becomes my new best friend. What a guy Me too He he was wonderful. So generous. Yeah, uh, according to jim This is Ludwig and this is this is how you should behave, right? Ludwig had a gentleman's agreement with rimo To sell silver dot heads without paying any licensing fees And rimo Exclusively sold black dot heads white dot heads and clear dot heads Um, that's how you should behave, right? Yeah, I mean, that's nice though that they could work together and not have to be some big argument where There's never going to be just one company. That's what these I feel like slingerland and Ludwig could not get past the That feud where there's room. There's room for more than one Drunk company. Yeah, jim by the way, and and it's in one of the catalog pictures. I sent you Came up with Ludwig's power collar heads That's a good name to like power collar Uh, and and that used a self-adhesive black ring around the edge of the head Very similar to rimo's pinstripe head And that first appeared in Ludwig's catalog in 1994 Well, we're getting to the end of our story here slingerland stopped making drum heads completely in 1997 And then used rimo heads on their drums and also in their catalogs Ludwig retired most of their drum heads in 2017 2018 Except for coated medium and heavies and common sizes Uh, jim thinks they might have tried to bring back some silver dots We we couldn't really tell today Most drum Ludwig heads are made by rimo Except for weathermaster medium coated snare drum heads and Ludwig white timpani heads So, um, wow That's the end of the Ludwig plastic drumhead story unbelievable and you know, what's surprising to me I've read through what you you sent and the first thing that that surprised me was 2017 2018, I mean they really I mean that's like That's now, you know what? I mean, that's not uh, they stopped in 1992 or slingerland 1977 it's pretty wild that it went that long My question too, and I think you said this but I just wanted to clarify who was catching up with who would rimo typically be the ones who first introduced Like the black dot heads and then the pinstripe and Ludwig was kind of catching up and making their own version Or was it they were both innovating separately and catching up or was Ludwig typically more doing what rimo was doing? As far as that muffle those types of different heads Not i'm not sure about that. Um, lud but I I think rimo gets the credit for the black dots in my memory and I was around Uh playing different heads in those days. The black dot heads Uh came with big fanfare in Oh 1973 74 Ludwig had already started experimenting with Applying something to the underside of a head To to get rid of the the high partials really that's what you're trying to do You want to get rid of those? You know on the spectrum analyzer all that stuff way over to the right that people go. Oh, it's ringy, right? And you want to emphasize The fundamental tone of the drug. Yeah, yeah, so Ludwig was playing with something, you know, whatever I don't remember that so much and I didn't use them uh You know, honestly Even to this day Bart Just give me an ambassador I don't want all that crap on the head. Yeah, I know if I want crap on the head I'll get get some moongel or get some duct tape But um, nothing tunes up more perfectly for me than an ambassador. Yeah, and then And then we'll see what we need to do with it I mean, I think what there are certain drum heads and drums where it's fun to experiment and um I've talked to some people about it on the show where there's so many variations of drum heads It's sometimes cost prohibitive to be like well I'm going to try this bass drum head and this then this bass drum head and then this one And obviously you can change and buy different ones each time you break one But I mean a bass drum head could be 50 bucks where How many times are you changing it or or your different pinstripes or I'm the same way where I personally put on like an ambassador Uh, and then I use this aquarium the super kick too on the bass drum But and evans are great. I mean they're Uh, you're not going to get really a bad head nowadays. It's just preference. Uh, no, it's yeah, no But if my memory is serving me correctly and and you know, Bart When we first started talking about this episode I thought you could just wave a magic wand and like Lazarus make these old guys come back And tell us the real story But too many of them are gone But if I'm remembering right the black remos black dots were introduced first and Ludwig pretty quickly Responded with the silver dots. Yeah, so maybe during the 70s There was some tension and then they came up with what Jim catalano said was the gentleman's agreement Ludwig would just use silver and Remo could use all the other colors. Yeah Yeah, and there's um it it's it's making me think of the um Pistey episode with Dan Garza where he talked about how Ludwig and they had the relationship with Pistey where they would license them And they were their biggest, you know, that's a huge deal and then it went away and it's um I mean, it is a business. There's a lot of like, I don't I don't want to say hurt feelings But there's a lot of you're you're looking out for yourself and your own company. That's the most important thing to stay Uh stay afloat, which um you mentioned to me on the phone Maybe we can talk about this in the bonus. Maybe maybe we'll do something else But about how these companies because you're a finance guy They're not making millions and millions and millions of dollars like some other big corporations They're like let let's say Dupont and 3m who were involved with the chemical stuff. Yeah, those are Mega giant corporations these drum companies weren't I mean, yes, they made a lot of money post Ringo Ludwig was obviously doing very well, but um They're still they still had the need to be scrappy to some degree Sure Yeah, and you know Ludwig, I think after Ringo was making You know a few million dollars a year in revenues but yeah, you know compared to large to g e or at and like It's jump chains. Yeah, it's nothing. Yeah, even if you gross those few million dollars up to today's dollars You know, maybe it'd be 20 30 million bucks, but Yeah, which I think is Playing into the attractiveness of these small boutique drum companies. So many of them we see today You've featured a few of them, you know, they're They're not they're not becoming millionaires either, but they're making drums for the love of it meanwhile, you know The old the old big names have been assimilated into larger companies and You know, you have quarterly statements quarterly financial statements that you have to uh, you were told Gotta think about this and you know, you often get compensated on it. Yeah, if you can increase Profits by this much Uh, you you get to wet your beak too. Mr. Manager of the drum company Yeah, and and then then it has to be said I didn't think about this at all But Ludwig and all these companies have been bought and sold and moved around by by a lot of companies where You know con or summer or whoever which, you know I'm sure they're great people there in companies But they may not have real might not have realized the nuances Of this drumhead technology or doing this and they might have said, you know, all right cut it We're not doing this extra, you know bits, especially after you spend that much money on a lawsuit That gets you know, that doesn't go the way you want it actually goes the exact opposite So a lot of people to answer to yep Man bill this is just it's so cool to hear this entire story of all the Ludwig stuff and and again having someone like you who has the passion to Put it all together, which which I which I uh, I I don't take for granted I think it's awesome But I do want to save some time here at the end to hear more about you as a drummer because you've been playing I mean you are a lifelong gigging drummer and have quite the background. So Why don't you tell us about you in your background? Well, um, like a lot of your viewers I I started playing before ringo I've been playing a couple of years, but as soon as I saw him I knew that's what I want to do So that's all I would think about and that's all I wanted to do by the time I was a senior in high school We had a cute little band that played jazz songs and dance songs So we got a gig at a local restaurant. They had just passed liquor by the drink here in richmond And uh, so we would play to kind of keep the diners around After they had dinner they would dance a little bit And you know for so many years for a couple of decades I made a pretty good living playing nightclubs five six nights a week Um, a couple of things kill started to kill that off disco was one of them Um, you know mid 70s nightclub goers became fascinated with disco music, which was usually played by a dj It was hard for bands to duplicate a lot of that stuff because they were using the big string sections and and big production behind disco Um, and also uh in the early 90s mothers against drunk driving who in you know I support their cause, but they killed the nightclub business, right? By the time that came along at 130 when everyone was leaving the club There were cops out on the street checking everybody. So that kind of put a kibosh on the nightclub business. Um, yeah, which That's that's the way it had to be Yeah, you're not pro drunk driving, but But it's like but the the the kind of residual effect from it That's an interesting thing that it it affected people like that Yeah, and it kind of like when talkies came along in the movie business. It kind of put an end to uh being able to have a working musician career Just playing nightclubs on a regular basis um Studio wise I told you earlier. I kind of fell into a studio gig in the mid 70s And uh, that was really fun and it took me i'm so happy they stuck with me because it took me about a year To figure out all the things you need to do in a studio that they don't necessarily teach you in music school your teacher doesn't teach you but That worked great, you know for 15 20 years, but as the drum machines came along and stuff I could see Making a living as a studio musician, especially a studio drummer was getting more and more difficult Especially if I wasn't in la or um, new york city or nashville. Yeah Um, yeah, so I was very fortunate the the finance thing fell in my lap in 1991 And I did both for quite a while. It was really kind of cool. Um But You know playing live music Uh, even to this day has opportunities have dwindled Yeah, sure and I feel so bad for some of the kids coming up because you know, unless you become a big star Uh, it's going to be tough to make a living support a family get health care benefits Uh, start a retirement plan. Um, that's so difficult for the young young folks coming up Much more so than it was, you know, uh in the 70s and 80s when I was uh, my music career was peaking Yeah, I mean that the the real life stuff of like you said health benefits and actually uh, when there's other mouths to feed It's it's uh, which is just even more impressive when Uh, like I know some local Cincinnati drummers who who gig all the time and can and are doing it where they're but I guess it's just there's less meat on the bone. Um for for lots of drummers And what I found uh, even back when I was very active was you do a lot of stuff, right? I did uh, every theater show for the me of virginia museum theater For more than 15 years every musical they did and they did usually two a year I was on that gig and I had a ball that was fun And uh, I made pretty good money and I was free to do studio work So, um, I think a lot of your friends that are still making a living likely find themselves During a variety of things, you know, playing a jazz casual here Playing a wedding there and then oh, I got a theater gig or Oh, it's played for rodney danger fields show Rodney came to town and Uh, that's awesome. He didn't carry a band. He just booked three goofballs So that stood behind him played a couple of notes and were the butt of several of his jokes So, uh, that's awesome. See anything for a buck drummer Yeah, which you have to be I mean really you have to be yeah, it made a good living. Um at it at the time, but I It's hard much harder these days Well, I mean, but you've it's just cool. You've got that background and that experience and you're, uh, you know I've found with this podcast that a lot of people such as yourself are Are professionals they have careers But that doesn't mean that they don't have a ton of drums And they don't don't still love playing and now maybe they have more resources to buy more drums That you don't you don't grow out of it. That's for sure No, and it ain't no up-and-coming musician that goes to the music store and buys that 50 000 Paul Reed Smith guitar with the Inlay Library. Yeah, they can't buy in that No, no and sometimes the folks who do buy those it's kind of the famous, you know the the dad who buys the 10 000 Nobel and Cooley kit who's played for a year Because he can it's like well, maybe you shouldn't have bought that but uh, but good good good on everyone for playing the drums everyone's on their own um kind of path and all that stuff, but Um, this is just I've learned so much and it's such a specific uh topic that I just I don't think Like that's why I love doing this show Is it's really transitioned as into something where folks like you Who who enjoy listening which I can't tell you how much I appreciate but you guys come up with these ideas that it's like Um, and I'll be honest. I get some people who say you should do an episode on some blank Very specific topic and I go. Yeah, I'll work on that and I I do but like where do I even begin? I mean, I can't put the energy and time that you put into this one episode into Every episode, um, so you did it You took the time to do it and you know, uh, uh, I don't know if you want to include this but I I really enjoyed it. I had a good time. I like history stuff So, uh, maybe someday you and me can come up with another project like this for me. Absolutely You open you you can do as much work and come back on as Whenever you want The drunken thing was I was inspired because uh, after you did jeff stern's episode. I started thinking well We've never talked about Ludwig heads and they were huge In the 60s in the 70s. They were everywhere and huge and uh, and I loved them Yeah, so, uh, I was you know, it's a labor of love Yes, and um, all right. So you got some help, which is gonna kind of segue We're gonna do a little bonus episode like we do on the show for um, patreon You got help from jim catalano, who was a long time Ludwig guy great friend of the podcast and uh, and also herbie may who People might remember from being on The rimo episode both of which uh, were very helpful So we'll go into more detail on the bonus about how you put all this together and their help But I know I can say personally thank you to those guys for helping and I'm sure you obviously are greatly appreciative I I really enjoyed my time. They were both very generous with their time I was on the phone for a couple of hours with both of them and some good follow-up emails and stuff. So they're wonderful guys and Jim jim just retired And herbie still is uh, the director of research and development for rimo So, uh, he's a top cat there and uh, I was so pleased he took the time to talk to me and answer all my questions Yeah, I mean, it's just we're all uh, I feel like we're all cut from the same cloth of like you can work At rimo or at Ludwig or like like and and jim's a teacher and and is a you know Instructor and but then at the end of the day you can get you can get done working with drums And then have a three hour conversation on the phone about drums outside of your job Which is kind of a special we're a special breed, you know Yep Cool. Well, um bill. I want to just say again. Thank you so much for being here and taking the time to do this and And and share your knowledge and I look forward to your next, uh, you know assignment that we'll send you out on to To put together So um on that note, thank you for being here and we can hop over to the patreon episode and and i'm very honored to have Met you your great guy and and thank you so much for all your time and energy My pleasure. It's an honor to be here If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning