 the courage to go the extra step. Yeah. I often take, you know, the more darker areas we go to, the more disturbed clients, the more trauma that we have to visit can often take quite a lot of courage for the therapist. Yeah. But then the client feels really met. Yeah. I feel somebody's there. I feel somebody is providing protection. And it does take courage from the therapist because, you know, often over my career, I've said to myself, do I really want to go there? You know, do I need to go to these darker places or have our face in my head? And thank God, I used to say, yes, because they need to have a therapist, I believe, that we're accompanying them to the darkest places. That takes courage. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode number 56 of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones. And as always, I need to come up with a different word other than wonderful Bob. Say fabulous. The fabulous Bob Cook. I quite like that. So this episode, we're going to be looking at the five most important qualities a therapist needs to cultivate for effective therapy. That's a wonderful title. I think it's about 15 years ago when I was maybe even longer. I was sitting in the Institute, and I don't know what I was doing particularly. I think I was eating my lunch or something. And there was a doctor. It was before the buzzer system. So it must be 20 years ago. Anyway, there's a knock on the door and I answered it. So it must be a long time ago. Yeah, you don't answer the door anymore. No, no, that's true. And there was this, I don't know how old he was, 20th person. He said, he said, could it, could I have a word with you? I said, well, I said, I'm doing my PhD or something with that significance. He said, and I wanted to talk to the, I don't think he said great psychotherapist, but he said, well-known therapist about, you know, the qualities a psychotherapist needs to have to be an effective psychotherapist. And your name was passed on to me. Would you like that? So I thought about that. And I said, how long will it take to talk about the subject? He said about half an hour. So I said, fine, come in. I think I'm missing my lunch. So he came in. I think I was there the next two hours, by the way. But I remember talking about this. So I think there's a great podcast. And I'm not sure. I tell you what, I watch a lot of reality television programs. And they often say, not in any linear order. So even though I know what we're talking about, but it's not really a top order here, but I have got one we can start off with. Go on then. Curiosity. Yes. I think, I really think, and it's a bit up near number one, that the more curious, I mean, he might call this noisy, but I'm going to say curious. The more curious a therapist is, the better. What do you think? 100%. I love that. I'm always telling my clients to be curious. Yeah. I think it comes along with awareness and self-awareness. We need to be curious about our response and reactions to things, I think. Yeah. I think that most clients will come and they've had a history of people who haven't accounted for them, maybe not have been interested in them and have got what we call in CA world, don't be important injunctions. Yeah. And the more curious you are of how the past affects the present, the more you will meet your client and actually the more they will feel met. Yeah. I love curiosity. Curiosity. Whether it borders on nosiness or not, I think curiosity is brilliant. And we are established, we have to get to know how the past affects the present, their past affect the present and help them understand themselves. Now, we can't do that unless we're curious. So it's a possibility. Yeah. I don't mean interrogation, I mean curiosity. And what I mean by that is asking open questions to tell me a little bit more about that. Well, that's interesting. You know, those sorts of adjoining questions, not the closed questions just demand a yes and no answer. Yeah. Yeah. And we do that through inquiry. It's, you know, it is. Yeah. Yeah. In our world, phenomenology inquiry or inquiry, but you see inquiry, you know, in a certain way it hasn't got to be perceived as interrogation. It needs to be much more a series of open transactions. Yeah. Tell me more about that. Oh, wow, that sounds really difficult for you. Was it? Yeah. And it's done from the nurturing channel. And often you might lower your voice in the inquiry. But it's all in the service of the client. No, it helps that I'm a curious person anyway, by the way. Me too. I mean, before I came to the profession, you know, I'd be known as somebody who would actually just enjoy people watching. Yeah. And enjoy. I was known as somebody who was asked a lot of curiosity questions anyway. But certainly clinically, it's really important. Yeah. And not to give that up, even if you're with person seven or eight years. And think when you were saying that I was thinking about it. And when you go out to a party or you meet somebody or whatever it is, usually the other person is talking about the cells all the time and they don't ask us questions. Completely. So it's nice to be, you know, curious and inquire about the other person. I think I don't know his top on my list, but it's really high. And another one, which is very high as well is humor. Yeah. The quality for a therapist to have a high sense of humor. Now I mean humor with the client. I don't mean humor at the client. But humor as a way of not only meeting the client, but also of lightning the process. Because often a lot of therapy can be, you know, perceived as quite going to the dark places, which may well be. But also we need to visit the light places. So there's some, some, some sort of lightnesses in this process because it often can be very heavy. And so the humor has to be, how can I explain this? Has to be used clinically. But it is in a marvelous quality for a therapist to have. Yeah. Yeah. Some clients you would use humor much more than others, by the way. So people who often anti-social passive aggressive, you would actually use humor much more than you would perhaps would use hysteronic or other adaptations. But on a general level, you know, I think the quality of humor and how you use it in a service of the clinical world and the client is an important quality to have. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. Do you agree with me on that? Yeah. I, yeah, I think you need to be very careful on how you use it in the therapy room. Yeah. But yeah, whether it's being liked hearted or, you know, I think part of my personality is I don't tend to take life too seriously. So it's just knowing that, like you said, there is an opposite to the dark side that we can use within the therapy. And I think that's overlooked sometimes. No, you're right. I completely agree with you about it can be, I'm talking about issues but perceived in a different way. But I'm talking about the opposite to the dark places. Yeah. Where we can sort of have a bit of lightness in the process. Yeah. And celebrate your wins in the therapy room. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes I say to clients, you can come here and talk about positive things as well as, you know, the not so positive things. It doesn't always need to be doom and gloom. You can let me know the good stuff that's going on. I think that's why I like a check-in at the beginning rather than going straight into the hard stuff. It's okay to let me know what's gone well this week. No, I couldn't agree with you more. So we've got, you know, humor, curiosity. How about you having a quality? Otherwise I'll just go through. I'm not, I don't know how you'll take this. For me, it's about taking risks in the therapy room as well. How about courage? Courage, yeah. Maybe taking risks isn't the right way of doing it, but yeah, courage. I think vitally, vitally important. You know, if the therapist needs to be courageous. Now, what I mean by that is courageous for the client as well in the service of the client. So, so the, I'll tell you a good example of this. I worked with somebody for about 11 or 12 years and she was working through quite, well, a lot of things. And we did a really good job and, you know, felt professional, satisfied. Well, anyway, about four years ago, she appeared on my doorstep again. And she said, besides other things, she wanted to thank me for going the extra mile. Yeah. So in the concept we're talking about, that's what I mean. The courage to go the extra step. Yeah. I mean, it takes, you know, the more darker areas we go to, the more disturbed clients, the more trauma that we have to visit can often take quite a lot of courage for the therapist. Yeah. But then the client feels really met. Yeah. I feel somebody's there. I feel somebody is providing protection. And it does take courage from the therapist because, you know, often over my career, I've said to myself, do I really want to go there? You know, do I need to go to these darker places or have I phased in my head? And thank God I used to say yes, because they need to have a therapist, I believe, that will accompany them to the darkest places. That takes courage. Yeah. It does. And I would imagine there's a lot of, you know, therapists out there that wouldn't be comfortable going to those dark places. Yeah. Yeah. So again, it's therapy. I know all that. Yeah. Because sometimes they come up in the most unlikely places. You know, it's kind of like, I'm really conscious of my, I don't want to say specialism, but if I'm not, I don't feel qualified in a particular area, whether that's, you know, anorexia or a particular type. But these things can come up during any session. And it's about how you, how you deal with that. And, you know, not only having the courage and the confidence, but, yeah, not leaving your client hanging to a certain extent. Yes. And, and they may not have had anyone. Yeah. Company them and feel protected by. To put themselves together again. Yeah. So courage is a very important quality. And the, yeah, well, let's just say that. In fact, for effective results, it's really important. Yeah. Listening skills, them are important. Yeah. The quality to account for the other, to really listen to the other person is very important. And listening, you know, really interesting quality because it isn't just listening to the verbal transaction. No. It's listening to the non-verbal transactions. Yeah. It isn't just listening to people, what people are doing. It's listening. Let's put it another phrase. It's listening therapeutically. Yes. And when we talk about listening therapeutically, we mean listening to the whole of them. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. The audience is at the same. What they're not saying the body language. Shifting in their seats. All sorts of things. Yeah. Whether you choose to sit in the room can say. Everything. How the feeling. Yeah. So listening is very important quality. I always think it's giving the client. The opportunity. To get to their own truth. Now. You have to really listen. And give. The space. For. That process to happen. But you saw your eyes listening all levels, spiritually, physically, emotionally, cognitively, non-verbally. And often to maybe say something like, you know, you want to tell me that you haven't told me. How's that for transaction? Yeah. In the world of listening. Yeah. Yeah. I think listening is really important. I've got a question. That's maybe the fourth, but let's I'll give you another one. I really like kindness. Yeah. I think the quality. Of an open heart. Of the therapist. And. Kindness is such a wonderful attribute to have. I know it comes a lot from being kind to yourself. So if you're not kind to yourself, it's much harder to model. I mean, another podcast we've talked about. Compassion and love. So it's in the same ballpark. Yes. Yeah. It's in the same ballpark kindness. But. Most. Of the clients. Oh, I don't know if this is a fair summary. I'm about how I'm going to say it. Most of the clients I've seen over my clinical world of 38 years. Kindness has been so important to them because they've had a world of unkindness. Yeah. And sometimes to overwhelm them, like I said in another podcast, but, you know, I think that. Oh, next quality. I'm going to the timing. Of how you. Perhaps. If the kindness transaction, if you want to put it that way. It is important, but kindness is a quality. You know, if you said to me, I think the top thing I would want for any therapist at all. For me. If I, if I was to do therapy, it would be that they. Have a high quality of kindness. And an open heart. Yeah. I don't want an unkind therapist. No, definitely not. That's the last thing I know about history of that. Yeah. Trauma is built and trauma is built on unkindness. And we need an antidote to trauma. Yeah. So I want to therapist this has the high quality of kindness. But it's not. No, it doesn't have to be necessarily through verbal transactions, but in fact, a lot of kind actions are non-verbal. Yeah. Again, it's the intent into it behind. The questioning or whatever it is that's going on. It's the intent behind it. And that's. You can't even describe that, but you know when it's there. You know, when there's a good face, you know, you can't feel what action. Yeah. Even when there's no words, you can, you know, that it's there. The positive intent is there. Yeah. So that's quite another quality. I said, I want to not forget. It's a quality. I know you learn this in therapy, in the therapy training. So I'm not sure if it's quality, but it's a sense of timing. By the therapist. The therapy has, the therapist has a real. Qualitivity or qualitative process. And they think about when they're going to say things, when they're going to time each other's actions. I think it's a really important quality. Yeah. Because the therapist that rush in. Or the therapist that don't think about pacing timing. Attunement. When to actually deliver a transaction. It makes for a less effective psychotherapy. In my book. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It's often a taught process or experience, but also I think. I think the client that has the quality of listening out to the therapist with Nick attunement between the two people. That was the client. It's a pretty special quality to have. I think I can distinctly remember the first time where I experienced. Pacing. And it wasn't probably the way it should be. But it was a really anxious client to. was rushing and I found myself feeling anxious and rushing along with them and it was a conscious effort for me to take a breath and just slow everything in the room down and I think it was the first time I'd actually been aware of that in the room. Yeah so it's a very important quality yeah have you got another one I know you have courage have you got I've seemed to have gone I like creativity yes in the therapy room yeah that's a wonderful quality isn't it instead of doing the same thing over and over and over oh think outside the box if it's not working be creative I think that is what a wonderful quality that is to I would always want one of my therapists to have a sense of creativity to be able to use different dimensions of their psyche to allow them I don't want a therapist in your language think outside the box that's a that's a marvelous quality to have for therapists and usually with it comes a very positive a very positive energy stream yeah so the the energies on a different dimension to the cognitive transactions yeah I very much like creativity sometimes you know even being creative in the way that we deliver therapy yeah you know you with some clients sitting on a chair just talking is quite difficult for them in some sessions you know to get open to move around or to I don't know before now I've opened my corridor and clients have lobbed cushions up the corridor and yeah check it or whatever it is it's just it moves away from cognitive exchange yeah and that models also permissions for the clients to go to different dimensions as well yeah so I couldn't agree with you I have one I really want to mention before the podcast ends and that's ethical that I want a therapist that is ethical and I'll tell you what I mean by that a quality of you know being ethical an ethical process because what I mean by that is a therapist that treats the client with respect yeah genuineness transparency and sensitivity yeah I would want a therapist like that I would feel safer my youngest self would feel safer my confidentiality would be respected my whole sense of being would be respected I'd feel the person was on my side so I would want an ethical practitioner yeah not somebody who perhaps would break ground boundaries or come from an unethical place or isn't transparent with me um I want to I want to client is ethical in the in the ways that I just talked about yeah ethicality yeah and again with most of these qualities I suppose we need to prove it we can't just say it we need to be doing it and we need to prove it it's not going to happen in the first session no that's a very that's a very good uh what you said and so I'm not really don't disagree especially about ethicality but and some of those qualities you talked about you know within 10 minutes yes kindness yes love compact kindness you know you just know that yeah if you really listen to your intuition but I agree with you in the terms of earning it yeah um I don't think we should expect our clients to trust us and believe us from the moment they're walking through the door it's like you say it's a process not an event and it's been consistent oh that's fine so I'm sure there's many many more whether I could go on but we're coming to the end but I wanted to sort of end on that one almost because yeah you know respect sincerity, genuineness, transparency being accounted for in a real genuine way is such important you know ethical processes yeah and unfortunately there are people out there that aren't ethical no that's why I wanted to absolutely right yeah and I would say to any of the listeners you know uh first of all being ethical means that you're going to be effective and for those people going to therapy themselves if you haven't got an ethical therapist but all the things I'm just talking about then leave but certainly for the therapist to be or a therapist listening to this um yeah by being sincere by being transparent by being genuine by having that sort of you know qualities therapy will be much much more effective because the client will feel safe contained and the younger part of the staff will be able to talk more easily and go to the places they need to go to with you yeah um so the qualities we talked about may not all be there in one person but I think I do think they are important qualities to to you know as a prerequisite for effective therapy effective therapy and I think it's important to talk about actually and more talking like we're talking now about this on the podcast I think it's really important to talk about and I tell you what I know this people have come in and said you know I've had the courage to come back to therapy when I've had a bad experience they know the difference yes a therapist who be not had those qualities we're talking about and that is the do yeah definitely yeah and it's one of those you know again we don't really hear from our clients you know that you've done a good job a lot of the time no you are right yeah you know so when they do come back and exactly the same but you know they've gone for two years sometimes three years and then suddenly they they come back again because a life event has happened and then that's when they'll usually say you helped me so much you know with what I was going through last time and that speaks volumes as well as word of mouth stuff we can't teach this can we Bob can we can't no no you're right you are right I think you can teach timing to a certain extent I think you teach ethicality to a certain stent but some of the things like kindness courage humour I think it's important to talk about them but for many therapists they either have that naturally or I think they can give oh yeah they can be given permissions by their own purpose to actually be that way yeah so so let me give example um you know I can't explain if you have a trauma-based history you will close your heart yeah understandably yeah yeah so as you work with the trauma and the toxic history you'll open your you'll open your heart yeah and an open heart is going to make for the most effective focus so it's it's often when you say that yes you've right at a level but you know the more trauma you've had the more closed up off you are the more disconnected you are from yourself you don't allow yourself to be humorous you don't allow yourself that lightness you don't allow yourself the open heart you don't allow yourself to be creative because you've closed all those things down yeah so really I'm going back to what I say on many podcasts the more therapy do you do yourself the more likely you are able to nurture these qualities we're talking about yeah yeah which again you know taking my cap off to you and the assessment process that you know I can remember going through before I signed up for the four years training at the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy I suppose you've got to weed out certain people you know who can you see I mean I've been doing this training for a long time and if I go back before I don't know before we were training a credit organization the UK say UK CP or even before regulating bodies perhaps I would have allowed people into the training for for example the few equities because we're training a credit organization the UK CP people have to have had a have a degree for example they've had to have this this and the other yeah by definition the people haven't had a degree and certainly some degree in the caring professions or they are being in the book caring professions then you know we we ask them to go on casting courses or whatever it is to get some sort of sense of academic capacity because we have essays to write and these things and etc etc but I know that the most effective therapists aren't the therapists the particularly can write you know having a degree having academic capacity in my book doesn't always mean that they're going to be effective therapists but that's good because I didn't have any of them before we were part of the UK CP and those were few equities and demands they have in 2022 but if you go back to psychotherapists in the evolution and its genesis in the earlier days there wasn't that there weren't the demands there are now and some demands that come now by the way I don't I understand them because we are where we are and I know that you can you know a trainee therapist can know all the theories in the world but if they can't open their heart out and they can't do all the things we're talking about or there's difficult most challenges there then they are going to have a harder road to be an effective psychotherapist yeah I agree you can't think your way through therapy it doesn't it doesn't work yeah I don't think your way through that's a very good phrase so it's a different sort of training nowadays but what I will say anyway I really like that last phrase of yours because your own therapy is going to be the precursor to this yeah that if you do your own therapy you're far more likely to be able to open up and be the therapist with these qualities that we've talked about yeah what a wonderful place to finish Bob as always um I don't we haven't got a title for the next episode I don't know what we're doing so it'll be a huge list but you haven't got your huge list next to you I haven't no so I'll just it could be I know it won't be by the way it might be because I haven't put this list I haven't put this title on this list but one of them we I would like to have some time rather whenever this may be is how the therapist deals with the unexpected processes that occur in therapy um and uh that's another podcast so let's leave what's next in the world of uh unexpected or surprise if you like we will do but I've written that one down because I think that's a good title yeah because often the most unexpected things can occur I can guarantee in every session something unexpected happens whatever that is I was taught a long time ago but it takes a lot of experience to get to the position that everything actually that happens is all gross to the mill if the therapist can creatively use the unexpected occurrence in the you know in the service of the client yeah now that's that's the bit and maybe that's when you've got to think outside the box sometimes creativity you talked about that'd be a great podcast wouldn't it well I've written it down we'll do that one next time yeah and whatever's on this list so I look forward to that yes thank you so much Bob and I'll see you very soon lots of love to you thank you and you speak to you soon take care bye bye bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode