 Good evening, good evening Hi Okay Welcome to so us. It's fantastic to see you all here for what I I know is going to be a wonderful evening Very thought-provoking stimulating interesting conversation and and we're going to see a little bit of the ambassadors film as well So I'm very excited about that My name is Steve Hobgood. I am a political science professor in the school I'm also one of the pro directors, which means a sort of deputy director and I look after our international outreach I sort of international profile. I was very lucky to meet the ambassador in Washington Last year. I think late last year. So I'm just going to give you a few words of introduction I'm sorry. I'm hunched over, but can you still hear me if I speak from there? Is that clear enough good? And I won't get a crick in my neck I Want to just say a few words about so I said particular and draw your attention. This is just a holding slide But we have launched a campaign called questions worth asking One of the things that's very special about so I some we're very happy to welcome you all here tonight to share this with us Is we pride ourselves on being a school that tries to face facts Seize things as they are and asks really difficult and challenging and critical questions about what's happening in the world From that point of view the talk we're going to have tonight fits perfectly We'd also like to announce to you that as part of our education beyond borders Campaign led by our students we've recently We've launched before a sanctuary scholarship appeal and the reason I mentioned this to you is that I think we've just relaunched this Hell yeah, we just sort of So we've just relaunched our sanctuary scholarship appeal So I really would urge you after this. This is about displaced scholars who scholars from Iraq scholars from Myanmar scholars from elsewhere have been Driven out of their countries by conflict So after this event it would be wonderful if you'd log on to our website and have a look at that and perhaps if possible Think about supporting us in supporting displaced scholars coming to work at so as We have over 300 academic staff focused on all aspects of the humanities and social sciences The research taking places so as can help practitioners governments and internationalizations address important social issues and political challenges One of those research projects led by dr. Amina yakin The Muslims trust and cultural dialogue Analyzes the conditions of trust and mistrust in three overlapping areas in modern life politics and society business and finance and art and culture and It's just that kind of project that we do here that the talk tonight will speak to the work that Ambassador Ahmed has been doing speaks to and the reason we're very happy to welcome you here tonight. I Will introduce the professor briefly and Lord be couparec who we're also very honored has joined us Then what we're going to do is we're going to see the beginning and the end of the film journey into Europe Which will take about 15 20 minutes I think and then I will invite the ambassador and Lord Paric to come up on to the stage they will Ask each other a few questions and engage in a conversation which I'll moderate and then we'll open the floor to questions from the audience Ambassador Ahmed is the Ibn Khaldun chair of Islamic studies in the school of international service at American University in Washington, DC He belonged to the senior civil servants of Pakistan civil service of Pakistan and was the Pakistan High Commissioner to the UK and Ireland He's also taught at Harvard and Princeton Universities and holds a PhD in anthropology from so as which is wonderful. I Would like to offer a huge congratulations on his forthcoming book journey into Europe. Please. There are Copies with a very generous discount available outside. So once you've heard the talk, please don't move past the table without buying your copy I'd also like to welcome back to so as Lord Beku Paric and Lord Paric is an emeritus professor at the Universities of Holland Westminster The author of several widely acclaimed books his academic speciality lies with political philosophy Modern Indian political thought and the philosophy of ethnic relations. Lord Paric was chair of the running me commission on the future of multi-ethnic Britain So I think you'll agree it's would be very hard for us to find two better suited speakers tonight, so without further ado, I'll ask for the Beginning and the end of Ambassador Akbar Ahmed's film to be played and after that we'll hear from him and from Lord Paric. Thank you very much. Welcome to so as It was a terrorist incident a man believed to be a British soldier was hacked to death by two Attackers who were later shot and wounded by police This British man has to pay the price for your promised Cameron by the time they'd stopped at least 12 people were dead 129 people were killed in a Friday night's terror attacks in Paris Authorities say three teams of attackers launched gun and bomb attacks at several locations in the French capital It's an act of the year who had been commited by a terrorist army We will not lose this year because it's a civilisation war Islam is incompatible with all western civilization. The war is started. We just need to wake up and pick a safe They feel that they are better than they feel they are more civilized than Xenophobic tidal with the suit and cross Europe Saddam's Iraq, they will put you in front of a wall and shoot you in Denmark. They strangle you slowly slowly Now it's I think it's reached a stage where it's a bit un-tolerable Every single part of our community is under under scrutiny as rabbi is a Jew as a human being and shocked I have never seen it as open as virulence. It's hateful as it is right now Anybody who isn't a Muslim has never been to a mosque. They're not places that other people care too many moms Their elder are really the problem. Are we seeing a clash of civilizations? Many are saying Islam and European identity are incompatible and that Islam has contributed nothing to Western civilization Others disagree. The Islam heard to Deutschland Muslims apart of you As a Muslim scholar living in the west I set out to seek the answers with my trusty team When you realize you've not really got close to your neighbors you can either panic or you sit with them and listen Our journey is in three phases We first explore the past in Andalusia and Sicily when different religions could live together The next phase is of Ottoman expansion into Europe and resistance to it And the final phase closer to our times is of European colonization and immigration A new situation has developed for Muslims after 9 11 Some like the young Muslim living in Belgium whose father is the Imam of this small mosque on the Moroccan Spanish border Have been caught up in the war on terror They took advantage of him visiting his father here in Melilla because it's close to the border of Morocco to be taken from here to Morocco And that's it. We never knew anything else from him Even if you're friends with someone that is involved if you even if you don't know what he's doing Just just becoming a friend of him or going to the mosque together Then you're supposed to be somewhat involved in the business I want to ask him a question Okay as a father What has he felt in his heart that the son was just disappeared? So they have no idea what it is very hard Not only me but the wife of him and the little little daughter He showed as a Muslim as a believing Muslim Have faith in God and inshallah he will see his son and you will see they'll be real nice Tell him he has many years inshallah to live with the son He says that before I die the only thing I want is just to see my son when I see my son then I can die And I see my son again inshallah Inshallah You see all these tubes. Yes. Yes. This is pepper spray. So when they touch it they are activated Other Muslim immigrants in the hundreds of thousands have been escaping the poverty and political chaos at home Imagine Pakistani families Syrian families. I'm talking families people. I mean pregnant women Little children babies Yeah, they come across that they're not gonna jump the border They just use fake passports or they are hidden in cars or trucks or even in rocks But this is expensive in Sicily we met amadou A 16 year old from gambia who's harrowing journey across the Sahara and the Mediterranean Took him over one year Amadou How did you find this mosque this mosque? It's a one one journalist They find most at the At the street we are sleeping there. This is where the refugees are put when they arrive here from North Africa Middle East in the boats when the Imam and the mosque gives Support shelter. They're given a place to sleep for three. I don't have money. I just go the same thing I just go and pick when somebody eats and he plays After I come I pick it It's good. Sometimes it's not good. Sometimes you will go you cannot eat But anywhere you must try to have something in your stomach One day I came to the station One man one man looked me. He hit me two times. Who hit you? I don't know whether it's a policeman or what but it's the police police station Uh, is this is this boy even standing there? He looked me like this He said move up move here. He hit me two times. He broke me two times With his head. Yes. He do like this two times So I see I cannot do nothing. I just sit and cry I want a place where you know that I am free I don't I'm not thinking about Transfer or to go somewhere else I'm thinking about to get up and go to school To get to get up and go and I have no I'm trying my best to help my family anyway my family because I'm the elder and the elder is and I want to make something tomorrow for that So that my family will help you about me Speaking about immigration so called immigration through my terrain in the area A terrible tragedy A killer killer as a lady residence for me why everybody tries to to land in society Because for society No man is illegal We feel this sense of hospitality in our in our spirits in our in our blood I would say but It's very frustrating when you see these people coming with their life in a little Plastic bag and you are You would do everything for them, but There's no other way to help because It cannot be work Or job opportunities For every one of them. So it's like like surviving in a jungle the strongest survive the weakest Won't survive The head is fraught with real dangers The challenge for european muslims is to rediscover the passion for knowledge and pluralism that once defined on the lucia I am astonished at the magnificent contribution of muslims to european civilization And i'm sorrowful at their predicament today But muslims have to vigorously challenge those who promote violence in the name of islam Europe's challenge is to rediscover the links between the greeks the muslims in places like on the lucia the renaissance And the enlightenment All of them share the idea of universal humanism and treating the other with dignity and justice They must reject all forms of racial or religious intolerance If it can overcome these challenges Europe will once again become a beacon of civilization for the world Let's pray them to their kentils and rafael who was always together with With the people who are traveling so he might protect you And defend you against all eagles And that he might grant you success in your your task That work is so important that you devote your life That you put yourself into this hardship of traveling around And I know what it means. I cannot think of More warm feelings than I have towards your work with the worker I think it's wonderful that you have a new another generation following up. So you have really my My most Feelings to To succeed I notice my friend professor that you are wearing a tartan tie. I love this This tartan that tartan and all tartans because tartan is a very special cloth which is woven In a very particular way of many different colors and shades and designs and it comes together each tartan Distinctive in itself with a combination of all of these colors and threads within it and your project I think I'm going to describe as a tartan project because your project is going to explain to people in the world Why canvas of the particular contribution Muslims are made for our history? I regard your project as the future tartan of islam I will never forget you guys I mean, I mean, I will never forget you Want to see you smiling now? Thank you very much You come here to me smile together Smile together Have a duty from jump for the second He said every time you meet the Muslim, please give him a hug and just say this hug is from the pope Thank you, thank you. It's a pleasure And I'm delighted you're giving me this hug in a mosque. Thank you, brother Is this still on nowadays? There you go. Ambassador Akbar Ahmed to come up and address us for 20 minutes I'd like to thank Dr Stephen Hopgood for welcoming us hosting this evening I want to thank all of you for being here Many members of my family many friends. I wish I could name you and single you out each one of you I will Especially like to thank Lord Piku Parik Who to me symbolizes great academic and moral integrity He launched this project journey into europe at the house of lords four years ago He then joined me here at so as in the same room when we came back with our research findings And here's here. He is again launching the book. So I would like to from my heart really wish my Express my very warm gratitude to you And he's come all the way from hul and has to catch a train out. So when he walks out Please don't see this as a potential headline in pakistan Indian scholar walks out of pakistani scholar's Presentation. We are very close friends Now I would like to say it's such an honor to be back at so as it's such a great honor I'm in one of the alum here And always proud to be back and see the intellectual Firmament in this great house of learning the project had a heart And the heart is a philosophic question, which my colleagues often debate at so as which is It really reflects Aristotle's great question who Centuries ago asked what is the purpose of life? So it's coming out of Socrates and Plato What is the purpose of us even even being here? What is it all about? And the answer if you were a muslim In the middle east in parts of central asia and afghanistan in east africa the answer to that What is the purpose of life is simply to survive? It's not the elite. It's not the middle classes who often Survive the violence and the turmoil but for muslims it literally is to survive And if you were a minority member Perhaps a christian in pakistan or egypt you'd have exactly the same responses simply to survive That's the nature of the world we are living so philosophically The question I wanted to tackle in this project and this is the fourth of a quartet But the previous projects was really to ask myself How can we live together as majority and minority within the same national borders? How can we live together? How can we reach out and create understanding with the other who may be of a different religion or race? So this became the philosophic Lens through which we looked at these projects The focus was over the last decade in which I did these projects was to look at the relationship between islam and the west And inspired by laurence daryl's idea of the alexandria quartet a set of novels Which I read as an undergrad in the 60s I looked at the same problem laurence daryl looked at a story set in alexandria from four different perspectives of four different characters in the story I looked at this problem from first the muslim world looking at the west The first big project that I conducted then americans in the west Looking at the muslim world again, we spent A year in the field traveling in the united states went to 75 cities and made a film And wrote of a book And the third project was tribal societies the book was called the thistle and the drone How do tribal societies living on the periphery of nations look at the central government? Now if you take the belt the muslim belt from morocco into north africa bindly into Central asia the caucuses mountains you will note these tribal societies living on the periphery Invariably have problems with the center And these problems are not new they go back to the time of the colonial era They are problems, but we often in our post 9 11 world simplify this as The tribal areas versus the west To somehow the west has gotten involved after 9 11 The fourth project was journey into europe which is what we are discussing in the book that we are launching now In terms of hegelian dialectics it has a very simple thesis There's a thesis that could be rooted and what we understand as primordial tribal identity Which can take and assume the shape of predator identity We have many examples throughout european history And antithesis to this which is the paradigm presented by andalusia Where it was possible for different religions and cultures to survive Not perhaps for a thousand years, but certainly for long periods of time and does provide a very strong Counter to the thesis and could be called the antithesis And we are looking now in the 21st century for a synthesis where you can preserve both and yet move forward That I believe is the challenge of the politicians and the scholars and the intellectuals All these projects these four projects were studied In the field with my american team mostly american but also non-american And they involved Straightforward anthropological method This is not an anthropological study in the traditional sense, but I use the methods of participant observation Extended interviews diaries and all the standard work that anthropologists rely on and that proved very very useful And I hope the anthropologists in the audience and I know jonathan bethel is here will note this That the method was relied on and was very very effective To the point that the american councillor zack yesterday said that this is really perhaps without anthropology You cannot understand some of the Developing situation in the in the muslim world The focus was also on the core issues that are concerning us and are discussed in the media We hear of terrorism of immigration Islamophobia anti-semitism Anti-semitism has re-emerged as you are seeing in in europe and the emergence of the far right And where does all this intersect Where do all these lines intersect and how do they impact muslims and of course How will they impact muslims in the long term? Because I need to remind you that Europe has a history the 1930s 1940s when the thesis very much assumed A predatory aspect where minorities became targets And there was a very cruel and violent end to that episode of history So we have to be very very cautious about where this thing is heading and how it will end We cannot be complacent. We cannot overlook these Trends of history. There are politicians Major politicians on the continent talking about The external enemy by that they mean muslims the internal enemy by that they mean the jewish community Already they identifying the minority that they wish to target And we know from our Studies that societies have a Cause and effect principle if you do something It's going to have an effect and over time you've seen this happening again and again in history So if a majority population singles out a minority and targets it You constantly suggest that this minority population is unreliable. They're dirty. They are Traders, they're a fifth column in us. They shouldn't be here You build up so much hatred against that minority community that violence is almost inevitable And if you have violence against one or two or three individuals Any incident something can trigger something else you may end up with some very violent scenes involving Larger members of that community. So we need to be very careful of cause and effect and what's happening in some of these societies We also know that Members of political parties in europe today talk about concentration camps Reviving that building them They talk about soap factories, which is a chilling reminder of what happened in the past in europe And I am both discouraged Confronting the reality of fieldwork because as I said This entire exercise was based in fieldwork And we were very very careful about the fieldwork to be impeccable Which meant that I divided the muslim community into three broad categories the immigrant community south asians North africans and so on and there was a pattern we found so that north africans were invariably heading for france. That was the relationship South asians heading for britain again the colonial relationship turks heading for Germany because they were on contract they were brought as guest workers on contract And once they came like many of the south asians to britain they invariably stayed on And once that happened you had the next generation and now you have the third generation And there you have the problems that are emerging in the community and its relations with the majority Because technically they had come for a short period of time make some money send it home and eventually go back But that has not happened. It hasn't happened in Germany either so you can see this becomes from the problems of one simple Society or country to a global problem throughout the continent And when you see the immigrants you assume well muslims are basically immigrants You may say like in nine nine eleven happened in america and very often americans equated Arab to islam very often after nine eleven people would say you Arabs are doing this and i'd say no Arabs are A very important part of islam, but they only 18 percent 18 percent which is not even the majority so people then equate the whole muslim world to to the Arabs But that's the immigrants They played a significant role and they made a huge impact The second category was the indigenous muslims again often overlooked So when you talk of muslims you talk of Arabs and pakistanis and so on We forget that there are millions and millions of indigenous muslims living in the Balkans And they've been muslims for centuries We met Thousands of blue-eyed blonde muslims europeans and very proud of being europeans Very proud of the cultural legacy of europe But also very proud of being muslim and in some senses in some senses the ideal muslims because They're also now really discovering their islam and really absorbing it in in a very exemplary way And the third category small in number but significant Is that of the convert? converts in germany france britain consistent converts into islam and they're bringing something very different into islam they're bringing their cultural inheritance the legacy of european intellectualism And they're very often going back to source So I find that dynamic a very interesting one because they sometimes are baffled with the immigrants Who often bring in their culture? So very often a pakistani will say this is how islam is and what they're really saying is this is how our culture is The converts will of course go back to source. They'll go to the quran They'll go to the holy prophet and his example and they'll give what their interpretation is of a purer and more authentic islam But these are the three different categories And we were strupless about interviewing people from each category spread across europe So while interviewing them we became aware of the differences in terms of the colonial impact on these immigrants Now all colonialism is in the end negative and detrimental to societies There's many positives that bring education and schools and so on But overall there is a very negative detrimental effect that is left behind on the local community It's almost a death of that community in one form. It has to be reborn in a very different form, but we found That british colonialism was distinctly different Not too inferior superior but different to french colonialism And that again helped us understand the relationship How north africans fair in france is coming from the colonial relationship How south asians fair in britain again very distinct and you can see some of the results that with all the recent developments of These far-right parties targeting the minorities. We also have the example of a mayor who's a muslim background television hosts cricketers academics tremendous impact members of parliament house of lords and so on many of bigopalic's colleagues who are lords who are from south asia, so britain had one idea of absorbing and including its former colonies in a very positive way inclusiveness While at the same time there are always expressions of their own specific ethnicity and identity and a lot of them had Ideas of superiority. So those were in contradiction, but that was part of their identity so having examined Talk to interviewed research hundreds of people across europe And we made sure we went to the northernmost city and the southernmost and the easternmost and the westernmost And came across communities that people had not even heard of some incredible Stories Communities tucked away in the middle of nation states some forgotten Some wiped out with the changes in history But we were able then to present it all in a very rich way very rich ethnography in this particular book I will point out The dedication of my team. They have inspired me and they moved me. They worked with me over the years They never complained about the hard Long slogs we had in the field some very very difficult The periods of trying to juggle travel with budgets running out with you Battling three or four bureaucracies at the same time But in the end we managed at all to our satisfaction Which is ready to aim for the best possible result and that is what we have and we feel very very satisfied Now what are the broadly and I am speaking very broadly are research findings research findings. I would say The first and most important The first and most important research finding is europe must start listening to its sages To its wise men and women We met some very impressive people on this journey, but I find they're not really heard So when I see television, I'll get all these commentators who yesterday may have been experts on Is there water on the moon or mars or whatever and today they're talking about islam with such authority They become the experts and very often they're limited understanding of the subject of islam means that a lot of their Limited knowledge of the subject is now broadcast and becomes part of how society sees muslims and the muslim community So first recommendation listen to your sages treasure them go to them and let them talk to you and let them give you advice I'll share one bit of advice that I received from the chief rabbi of Denmark a legendary band called bent melchior you saw him in the film chief rabbi bent melchior He's so famous that two of his sons are chief rabbis. He's he's retired, but he's very well known in denmark So I asked him. I said rabbi. I want your Advice for the muslim community. What should I tell my community at the end of the journey? What can I bring to them? What can I share with them? What hope would you give them from your own experience as a senior member of the jewish community? and he gave me these three Pieces of advice and I want you to think of them and all there many muslim leaders and scholars here Please remember this because it's a perspective of a friend From outside the community. So the first thing he said was let me tell you how the jewish community started in denmark We came here centuries ago And we opened a school A really good school. You put a lot into it But it wasn't to teach the jewish community about jewish history and culture and religion It was to teach them about denish culture and denish history And that struck me immediately Because very often we do the opposite Muslims are always keen on education But we very often create a school and then we invariably have boundaries around it And sometimes it gets so bad that we then begin to say this is a sunni school and a shia school and Barelvi and Diobandi and before you know their boundaries within boundaries He said no you have to reach out not reach in Very good point. Number two He said that Muslims like jews like minorities have rights And those rights must be honored They need to be guarded those rights But the majority also has its rights Just like you have rights and again that struck me because very often We Overlook the fact that the majority population also has its rights So they want to live their life in a certain way. They have the right to live it. It's their Country they're in the majority and they've been here long before we've come here So both must learn to respect and appreciate each other Third he said You have to remember that when one of us did something wrong one jew individual You inflicted a hurt on someone or did some fraud did some misdemean The entire community is going to get blamed So the society at large is going to say you see all jews are like this. This is how jews are That's your stereotype And that he said is what's happening to your community So that today you have muslims being blamed for all of the violence taking place And if you think about it, that's how it works So if something happens in afghanistan or pakistan or in sumalia All muslims are suddenly muslims are doing this muslims are involving terrorism and so on So you said again, you have to be conscious. It's not personal You have to play your role in trying to minimize the brittle relationships that exist at this time And the way islam is then demonized and misunderstood and everything is distorted But it's happening because these are the principles on which society functions That struck me as very sensible and again, there's just one sage giving me one piece of advice Lord jonathan sacks another sage in this time of britain the former chief rabbi He wrote a book called the dignity of difference Now if you haven't read the book, I would strongly urge you to read it. It's one of the great books which should be read Karen armstrong again from london the battle for god These are great books. We should all be reading and learning from these are sages of europe And we need to hear them and listen to them from the muslim side You have a mustapha cherich who was the grand mufti of bosnia In bosnia, there were some very impressive muslim scholars and they continue to contribute to this field of scholarship we also learned that There is a problem and it's a universal problem, but more applicable to muslims now The tension perhaps unsaid unspoken between the older and the younger generation But there's a kind of I would even use the word breakdown Where the values of the older generation Have partly communicated themselves to the younger generation, but not fully and therefore some of the problems and frictions begin to arise It's a generational thing and so many of our case studies Were based on exactly this problem So for example, there was aksa from glasco. You may recall her case very famous case Very bright girl 16 17 years old She could have been member of parliament. She could have been a professor. She could have done anything in her life She came from a good well settled middle class pakistani family And one day she just disappeared To become a jihadi bride What happened? What a huge For me as an anthropologist huge question. What happened? Middle class pakistani family the last thing they want to do is Become aware that their daughter has gone off and joined the isis group So why how did that happen? We need to be thinking about these issues in a serious way in a sociological way Unfortunately, there's too little serious thinking work in the community and outside it She's your test case And because in the end She's disappeared She's probably not alive now. So the community has lost a member of its own One of the families has lost one of the stars of its own Own tradition and I would say that a potential star because when you read her and we read her and we've quoted her She's a very bright young woman. She reads she thinks but life begins to change and you can see her thinking Hatred begins to infuse her thinking violence begins to infuse it And before Long she's reflecting that in a hatred of the shia. She has become the enemy because that's how isis saw the world There was always an enemy so The young and the old number two We need to remember that the imams The religious leaders are the guides of the community They're like the rabbis or the jews or the priests among the christians or your professor or your guide or some elder who You can talk to the imam In europe hasn't been able to play the potential role that he's capable of The the imams in germany for example come from turkey. They come on a contract four-year contract They come they live in their own cultural bubble and after four years they go back So there's no incentive to really interact and as a result if you have a local girl in germany who's like aksa Who's she going to go to She's not that free with her parents In our culture. There's always some formality. They don't we don't have the freedom that English kids have that they can talk to their parents more freely And they are then blocked So in germany the imam who would be the natural man to talk to is not really available because of cultural problems We need to be very careful about having imams who understand local culture Who are able to interpret it both to the younger generation and vice versa Their problems then back to their community. That is not happening It's not happening with quite the speed that I would like it to take place then the lack of coordination And cooperation between the local administration and local muslim leadership by that. I mean The social political religious muslim leadership That is happening. It's happening in patchwork over here And maybe over there, but not as it should be happening because there are too many Too many terrorist strikes that take place just too many every few months every few weeks And every time that happens remember rabbi bent mature It feeds into a picture that muslims are basically violent And then all the theories of the experts come into play We mentioned the experts and they began to say the quran preaches violence and that kind of nonsense And then very quickly people are saying yeah muslims are violent because the quran preaches violence Again and again, I've had to answer this question about Islam and violence and again and again I've had to refute it as a scholar, but it's out there and One individual or 10 individuals or thousand individuals cannot completely refute it It has to be taken on in a mainstream way where television radio and all begin to understand the gravity of Not understanding why it needs to be refuted, but this idea is a very powerful and a very strong idea We also saw that Interfaith works a great deal We tend to poo poo it and dismiss it and say these are goodwill people just sitting and chatting and talking to the converted But interfaith has a big impact most of muslim societies are traditional societies So in muslim societies see an imam talking to a rabbi or a bishop or a priest It reinforces their sense that we can talk and we can build bridges It has worked again and again. It's worked and as an example I often quote the Bradford case study which we have in the book and the film Where some members of a right-wing group Stormed into the mosque While muslims were at prayer while they were bowing down to say their prayer and worship their god And this group came in with the Bibles and wearing shoes But mud on them and walked in front of these people and this incident created a crisis And I then recorded four different ways of looking at that incident We talked to the head of the right-wing group We talked to the imam of the mosque the man who in fact is the Leading figure in the islamic organizer islamic council of bradford. We talked to the mayor And we talked to the bishop. So again looking at one thing from four different perspectives And it was the bishop who gave the strongest response the bishop in his full Clerical uniform in which he said this is outrageous I'm quoting him. He said the bible is not meant to be used as a weapon where you come in and try to hit people with it It's outrageous. What happened in that mosque? So interfaith is very powerful and we need to constantly reinforce it and bring it out into the into the public Media I've mentioned the media but media needs to be really tackled and I would urge doctor Pro director here to encourage students to not only be scholars but be scholars interacting with the media Because you write a book you write an essay and you really ask yourself how many people read this outside the department or your colleagues It's got to be out there in the media. I would like to see these great scholars on television on radio So that their ideas are caring because the media needs to have expert advice And unfortunately, I don't see it here in the uk. I don't see it in america But you have some extraordinary scholars some really giants there Very few times when you see them on on the screen or in one of the television or radio shows And finally I want to come back to the idea of knowledge and understanding with the word ilm Ilm is a word in arabic which means knowledge or learning And ilm is so important in islam that I want the non-muslims to remember this fact Ilm is used more often in the quran than any other word except the word for god So no religion has an emphasis on knowledge as does islam The quran is repeatedly saying learning learning learning the prophet of islam Said something very very moving and very powerful, which I love quoting And here it is I think this could be a great motto for any Institution the ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr It's a very powerful saying this is the prophet of islam And if muslims could only understand the significance of this saying It would change the way they look at politics at scholarship and their own destiny Because unfortunately people like Isis have Inverted this for them. It's the blood of the martyr that matters not the ink of the scholar So I come back to ilm and I want to end with this because it's a very powerful image. It's a hopeful image And the lucia In its heyday, this is the antithesis of the primordial identity paradigm if you like in its heyday had Libraries 93 libraries and kurdova alone think of it kurdova Was then the greatest city of europe greatest city in population in civilization and so on 93 libraries the main library had 600 000 volumes When the greatest library of europe then had 600 volumes And a few years ago Harvard university produced more pamphlets and books in one department than the entire adab world put together So you can see how this relationship has Become asymmetrical over history because muslims have lost the capacity to respect and honor learning ilm Ilm then produced people like ibn fir nas kurdova nine century Scholar, scientist, mathematician all these were great Renaissance meant long before this term became popular and associated with with the renaissance. So ibn fir nas Does many many other things, but he also attempts flight and he's the first man to attempt flight. It's not leonardo da vinci It's not the right brothers He climbs up on a hill. He's experimenting with these big wings and he jumps off and it is recorded That he lasts 10 minutes before he comes crashing down Unfortunately, the laws of gravity are very strong even in and the lucia But to honor him even today in spain You have a huge bridge one of the main bridges of Of kurdova is in the shape of wings to honor ibn fir nas and a crater on the moon a crater on the moon Is has been named after ibn fir nas to show that the scientific body does not believe in and this kind of religious prejudice This wasn't only restricted to muslims Christians jews participated aggressively in this culture and contributed to it And then the impact Of convivince are the notion of coexistence The antithesis to primordial identity where we can live together as different cultures religions with respect for one another This was also practiced by christian kings in europe then Many examples roger the second alfonso the tenth and of course the great example of fredrick the second the holy roman emperor one of my Favorites one of my heroes and very few people in europe today. I am Sad to say this Even have heard the name of fredrick the second They haven't heard the name I would want him to be taught at schools not even at universities at schools This man spoke arabic Had muslims in his bodyguard and his imperial cloak The coronation cloak of the cloak of the emperors Holy roman emperors had arabic script on it And the jewel in his Kingdom the chapel in palermo beautiful chapel has arabic script and arabic images throughout That's how close they were at that time in history Finally, let me end with the notion of humanity We scientists often squeeze out The human element in our work. So we are pure scientists. So we don't even recognize that We are human beings first and foremost and we need to in that sense really go back to the greeks And the notion of humanity and universal humanity and with it universal humility Because what motivated me starting on this journey was the idea of how little we knew That we had to acquire knowledge for me personally after so many of these projects just to learn about my own community So I really went with a blank check My mind was blank. I had to be a student to learn One of the greatest things as Socrates said as far as I'm concerned Is that the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing and that's a great way of approaching knowledge So here three things I'll leave you with One the notion of humanity and compassion. We know Jesus symbolizes compassion. We know that God's Definition in Islam is based on Rehman and Rahim The two most beautiful names of God God himself selects them And we know that Judaism rests in the notion of tikkun olam To heal a fractured world now if you see the world as fractured with all the religious and the ethnic Violence and conflict then you it's your duty to go out and heal it And I don't have to remind you of the non-Abrahamic faiths Hinduism and buddhism and jainism Who's at the very heart of which lies the notion of Non-violence and reaching out and accepting all of human and animal life and with that image I shall leave you and be happy to have any questions. Lord Bikubaric, please come up. Thank you Thank you. That was wonderful. Um I'm going to ask lord Bikubaric to speak first because then as as dr. Ahmed said He'll have to leave immediately to go and get a train So, uh, I'll ask him to give a few responses. He will leave and then we'll uh move to questions. Thank you Is that working? Can you hear me at the back? Well, first of all, uh, I want to begin by thanking professor Ahmad for this absolutely brilliant And scintillating exposition of his the basic argument of his book and he was so Captivating that the entire audience was swept off his feet And I didn't feel like asking the moderator That 20 minutes were over. Could you could I please come in and say a few things? Uh, first of all, uh, I want to compliment professor Akbar on this great generosity You see when an author writes we simply tend to concentrate on the author We tend to forget the man as you say toward the end the man behind the author And what you see here is absolutely remarkable, which I haven't seen before There may be other examples Which is the book is dedicated amongst others to one of his students Who was part of his team? And he writes about it in the following way, which I found absolutely fascinating Where he says different to Frankie Martin He became like a favorite son No father could be a prouder of his offspring Then I am of Frankie Now that is a remarkable tribute from a guru to his chiella From a teacher to his student And I want and it shows the generosity of the spirit And the sensitivity with which you approach your colleagues and part of your team No wonder your team has been so loyal and faithful to you Now the other thing about the book since I've had the privilege of reading the book Is the enormous amount of information it provides some of which I had never heard before I knew something about the German love of forests But didn't know about the German love affair with the wolf And if you look at the most of the German first names like Adolf Hitler Now you know what Adolf means The book tells us it means a noble wolf Rolf Advice of a wolf Oh now There are other words like well German words which have this kind of wolf-like origin Or for example, I had not realized that the word The word Dutch I have often wondered where it came from that the word Dutch Is derived from the same roads as Deutsch German So there are some fascinating tidbits in the book and which alone make the book worth reading But I want to concentrate on three important questions And I may not be able to stay on here to hear the answers But I hope that professor Ahmad will be able to answer them The first thing is he talks about the British and French colonialism And suggesting that the British was more benign than the French Now I'm not entirely sure that this is the case Perhaps it can be shown in some way that the Brits were more benign But as somebody who comes from India, as I do With the story of the British brutality which Ashish Tharoor and others have recorded All about the British and East Africa and Kenya and Mao Mao and elsewhere I think their record was no better. I wouldn't say it's worse, but no better than the French And if one then looks at the way in which the French colonialism at least gave the promise of equality That the French colonialism had a cultural core The British had a racial core So that in the British case you could do nothing to be equal to them In the French at least you could make an effort by acquiring elegant French and commander of the French literature So given the fact that neither has much to be said for it One needs to account for why that the record of two countries has been so different The British have been much more sympathetic to the migrants in a far more in some respects than the French have been Now if the explanation cannot be entirely in terms of the history, what can it be in terms of? And here I think, well Professor Ahmad I'm sure has many answers But I would suggest one way would be the British hospitality to the idea of plurality And if one look at the way in which you were struggling and I was struggling in those days when we came here The British were far more sympathetic to toleration of differences to the respect and the dignity of differences But the French nation state was entirely based on the idea of uniformity The French were not as tolerant of difference differences within a shared identity But not differences outside the identity So that's one point I would like you to think about The other point I want to raise is this whole idea of being a Muslim An individual has many identities. I mean, I'm a Hindu. I'm an Indian. I'm a professor. I'm a lord I'm a very good friend of Akbar Ahmad. Lots of things When and why would I want to stress the fact that I'm a Hindu? Why would anybody want to stress that he's a Muslim far more than other identities? Now there the answer would be that that identity somehow has become so important to him Why and there are several answers and here again, I would like for us to respond. One is other identities might not be available to me I might not be able to call myself British because the being British is so defined that it rules out people like me If being British means being white or being Christian or being Middle-class I can't count myself British. So that identity is not available to me Pakistani or Indian identity might not available to me because I might not care for the customs of those countries So if no other identity is available And yet the identity is crucial because I need to define myself in terms of certain values, which I derive from my religion So also groups from different countries Iraqis, Issyrians, Pakistanis and others. What is the uniting factor? religion So the question is why does religion become The axis The basis of one's identity and that is because it allows people to unite across ethnic boundaries It provides values one is looking for It is the ground of one's self-worth Because in today's situation if Muslims in certain parts of the world were to ask what are we proud of One thing we can proud of be proud of is religion So for all that for all these reasons religion becomes very important Which means that if I want to counter that self-definition I want to urge those people not to define themselves merely as Muslims, but as human I need to counter those factors which make it compulsory for them to acquire the single Muslim identity and there I think the idea of imams being educated in in in the receiving country or Better understanding and so on is helpful, but I don't think it would be enough An imam can be educated here and still be just as extreme as anybody could be And lots of ideas of Muslims are derived not just from the imam but from from internet and lots of other sources So think of a situation where imams are educated here Dialogue goes on between to faith but again at a superficial level So I would suggest that all those things are very important absolutely right crucial But we also need to emphasize the attitude of the host society In some sense the host society's attitude to the Muslim is the representation expression of its view of itself So its self-understanding needs to be counted The British need to define themselves Their own identity in such a way That the Muslim can feel at home in it And I think the last point Which I can stop here because I do really want to hear your answers The last point simply would be in terms of The way in which I think you go on to explain which you didn't discuss here Is how many people from which country had joined ISIS? And Professor Ahmed I must say is extraordinarily perceptive When he appreciates the role of burbars I had not realized this having been in the house of lords and having had those debates That if you look at the who were the Groups from which Muslims in France or Spain Were coming from and they're not any Muslim. They're mainly burbars Why burbars and what do burbars bring with them tribal consciousness sense of revenge sense of vengeance sense of justice Now here, I think the question is if you look at four countries for which he provides data UK has sent 760 people to join ISIS France 1700 Germany 760 and Denmark 120 So Denmark would seem to be the nicest safest country But then he provides a fascinating Angle to it which is rather than look at these abstract figures look at the number of population What in the population of Muslims and what does this represent? And there if you look at Denmark 120 out of a Muslim population of how much? Britain 760 out of the Muslim population of how much and if you do that Per hundred thousand Muslims how many have gone to ISIS? Denmark 46 France 34 UK 24 Germany 16 So Denmark which appears to have sent the fewest turns how to be the most prone to violence For preside on precisely those grounds Now that I think is is is a very good way of looking at things. I really appreciate this But there the question for me is if one looks at belgium Where the record is quite different which you don't provide here Or if one looks at the Dutch Or Norway when begins to see a slightly different picture of people going out and working with the ISIS So I think with those three general remarks for you to think on my last hope would be That for somebody who has done so much for us to Help us understand the muslim fears anxieties promises I would like him to return home Return home. It means to our part of the world south asia and do something with his team Maybe adding some few more people from the subcontinent Looking at the islam in south asia Afghanistan from Kabul to Calcutta. That was your slogan From Kabul to Calcutta, Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh even Myanmar Looking at the kind of islam that has grown up in our part of the world its trends So it never became brutal and if you look at the number of isis going out from kerala and other parts of india is very small but at the same time Uncomfortable and hindus in india have have been making complete mesh of their inability to Provide any kind of convenience here With muslims So I hope that having done this book, we could persuade professor ahmet to return home Which is the best way to end your academic life And when you do that, I suppose I would be invited. I hope you will to launch it If not to launch it, that sounds too presumptuous But to be able to comment on it because in spite of all my work in philosophy I remain in indian at heart. I want to understand my own country and its neighbors and be at peace with them And here perhaps your understanding of islam might be able to help us In coping with its challenges better than we have done so far. Thank you Yes, I'll answer very quickly because Doctor How good is aware of the the time and I know that big who wants to catch his train back First of all, because you're raising the question of returning home as it was south asia Well, I've already got half a team sitting here including CJ my french student who's come from paris to join us here We've got Lisa. We've got various members and fresh members like faran. I hope he'll join us Mina's here So we certainly would want to think of something like this again involving On the condition that you join me. So we'll we'll take the road together now very quickly your three questions I'll try to summarize my responses. They they raise all kinds of issues The the business of the british versus the french every country has a different philosophy of colonization And to me that's the root of the difference The french were not always as brutal as they became in the late 19th century If you go back to napoleon bonaparte who arrives in kairou He starts wearing arab dress. He calls himself sheikh ali And the muslims are taken in they say well this man loves islam. What a wonderful man And they began to say he's better than the ottoman turks. He's much more sympathetic to us He gives a dinner an iftar dinner during the month of ramadan in which he invites the sheikhs from al azar So this direction of french colonialism could have been very different if that philosophy had been followed But it wasn't by the 1830s and 40s a very different kind of approach was taken and there it was sheer brutality And we've given you the figure. No the british did and i've not overlooked it. No, I've got all that I've got all the bengal and the famines and church and everything and the mama and so on In try cranky martin spent his earlier years in in kenya So we've got all that there is a difference because study it again I know that and I admire shashitaro's book but again that can be very sweeping I mean if you look at the reforms that the british are constantly bringing in the civil service commission slowly very slowly But they're beginning to absorb local ics officers who may be indians or muslims or hindus or whatever But there's always this constant attempt to include them the colleges Even aligarh was created under the patronage of the the british and so on So there's a very very distinct difference in the way they are administering Because the concept of queen victoria was the concept of the queen of india So in that sense in a romantic symbolic sense she embraced and included Empire and the jewel in the crown of course was india. So i'm just simplifying this in terms of The second question why are muslims emphasizing muslim identity? We need to remember identity is something we have innate in us, but also other people impose identity on us The the germans told me many germans were interviewed that before 9 11 We looked at turks living amongst us and we said he's turkish He's from syria. He's from pakistan But after 9 11 he said a new identity much They just said he's muslim and these turks would come and say why are you suddenly calling us muslim? We said this is how we know you as now so identity is now being imposed and an individual muslim can do very little about it You're sort of stuck with it thirdly your Comment on the terrorism And the breakup as you know, I have a whole chapter on this and I found this Very very interesting how the ethnic background of these terrorists helped us understand What they were up to and how they can be challenged and checked Which the security people so far haven't really picked up So they're still looking at it in terms of the quran and the verses in the quran and so on and they haven't switched to An anthropological understanding of terrorism So there's a lot of work to be done because I hope people will read it as thoroughly as you have and as kindly as you have Thank you very much people you don't want you to miss your taxi Well, I hope I have started on the questions and answers and now professor everybody's entirely at your disposal Questions from the audience Thank you Questions from the audience Do we we have a roving mic here? I think so best to use that I'll take two or three questions. So if you have a question as well, put your hand up and I'll come to you Yeah, you discussed identity a lot in that talk and specifically the contrast between Sort of Pakistani Muslims who have that national culture to fall back on and the third generation Muslims in this country in Europe and the converts And it would seem to me that it's not the different identities that face the challenges we have but the act of trying to find an identity Do you agree of that? And if so, what can the minority do to remedy and what can the majority do to remedy that? It's the same thing the discovery of identity exactly the same thing depends how you phrase it Yes All right, that was the fastest answer I've ever heard in that academic give in my life. Um, other questions I was just wondering when you were talking about Aksa's incident and when you're talking about you were answering to Lord Bhikkuparik's answer, uh, that That's religion or identity which become primary identities in retrospective So for me when I was thinking about Aksa's question I think I was I was wondering why we need to go back to Islam to understand what Aksa did Because Aksa was product of european society in a sense with holding that that that faith which she had So for me it was I was wondering that If that things were happening in Europe or in wherever she was and you said that in retrospective So why not we look at Aksa's what Aksa did in retrospective of european society in that sense Yeah, we are man. It's like Connor's question I don't understand your question because that's exactly what I suggested I said we need to analyze Aksa sociologically not religiously what she was doing wasn't religious She was and I gave you the case study in some detail to point out. She was having problems with the parents They weren't coming and I've given the details in in the book Every time she talked to her father, he would dismiss her you would be contemptuous Because they were horrified at the idea of her becoming very orthodox And they were quite secular in the way they approached their society But it was her then being pushed away by parents by the authority figures that forced her into the basement and coming online And then being in touch with some of our Imams and mullahs in the Middle East and then taking that line So that's where religion comes in and her understanding of religion Question in the front here and then also from professor ed simpson director of south to south asian student over there will take these two questions together Very interesting questions, but neither donald trump nor jerusalem are in europe So our subject is journey into europe and as far as the muslim countries are concerned The oic has had a special Session where various prime ministers and presidents came now how powerful effective they are you know that yourself Okay, i've got a question down here from Professor ed simpson director of south to south asian student and then there's two more questions here I'll come to you afterwards, but you obviously like answering them one at a time Professor amad thank you very much for a meticulous and inspiring talk You talked a lot about the ways in which an anthropological method had helped you do the research I wonder if you could say something about how an anthropological way of thinking might help might have helped you with the conclusions What helped me a lot. Dr. Simpson was not simply Being an anthropologist in the field I've also been a field officer and I have had to deal with large communities different communities with fairness with neutrality And with the basic human compassion so sometimes anthropologists Swings so far towards trying to be as scientific as possible that they overlook this human element the element of compassion Trying to understand that society and in some senses representing it I didn't restrict it to anthropology. I'm also a political scientist. I'm a scholar of religion So I was using these other disciplines But what I found very useful was some of the method And again, they were We have to be careful there because anthropologists prefer as you know to go out in the field A year or two or three maximum in the field Studying a village or a suburb a small community. We were taking a whole continent We were spending literary years on it and I was going out with the whole team So there was to an extent. We are borrowing from anthropology to an extent. We are just being innovative and creative Ambassador, I'm really sorry. I missed your talk. The failing infrastructure of this Declined reality has delayed me by an hour in this country But I I gather by looking at your book outside that you've addressed elements of this point But surely the issue of Europe like america, but I think much more complex than the american sort of context is The fundamental subsumed hypocrisy Of european academia media and culture for the last 70 years after the so-called endo empire where the imperial motive on a supremacist racist and Quite ancient in some ways sort of an inferiority complex from the days of enslavement of northern europe to the romans Attitude to the rest of the world in in after the post-war period is I mean it's exposed now And it's ironic that we've had to go through five years of anti-racist campaigning when I was young We thought that was over in the mid 90s So it's almost like there's a trend that is often in my opinion mistakenly regarded as fascism but actually is pervasive in the liberal elite of a racist supremacist Revival of the abuses of the last 300 years and that I think requires and as you've done A critical analysis as I think malaysia is doing on european cultures From the occident in complete separation to the conceptual frameworks of of france or or whatever Because if we do that we may find there's lots of hypocrisies in institutions Universities and attitudes to the maltreatment of people who are considered not the other but inferior We're not considered the other. I think this is a misnomer We considered inferior racially and this is the kind of attitude that leads to 700 africans drowning being called cockroaches and a Limited reaction to that. So my point is in terms of islam is slamming multi various Bode of many races that it's really not our problem Our problem is geopolitical in the era of the rise of china And the the so-called one-world-two systems many of these subsumed facts that immigrants who who are not really immigrants We've been here three four generations Have come to light and that is the great silence of the western media now that the economy has collapsed Of the racism and imperial attitude to all people outside of the hierarchical european context So my question is islam and muslims are not really the problem despite particular political issues Europe is the problem in the attitude the rest of the world I'm not sure that's strictly a question, but thank you for your comment and question I would urge you to read the book and you'll find a lot for the answers there Last question you want? No, no, we can have a couple more. There's another question. Hi there. I look forward to reading your book Sorry, my question is Do you not think the impact of a whitewashed curriculum is feeding the fire that contributes towards the rise of the alt-right? I didn't get that. Sorry Do you not think the impact of a whitewashed curriculum that we currently have within the united kingdom? And I imagine in many parts of europe are what contributes towards the fire in which has caused the alt-right Significantly grow. I think a syllabus By itself does not contribute one way or the other These are forces again if you look at my book I study all that is happening in europe today like the A gentleman asked there in the context of european history and I go back 2000 years For example, the story of germany for me begins with germania with tassitus That is 2000 years ago When the idea of german identity is first put down on paper And those ideas are very strong in all societies and there's nothing wrong with it because that's your primary identity What becomes dangerous is when that takes the form of predatory identity when you begin to focus on a minority And that can happen when societies feel under threat Under pressure as they're feeling now in europe with the Hundreds of thousands of immigrants so a solution has to be found Now whether they teach that or don't teach that people are free to go out and read their own books No one's going to stop you from that and then think for yourself I don't think that i'm not sure why you Actually omitting all this from the syllabus or not i'm not sure perhaps you could comment on that I would say In some cases. Yes in many cases. No, but that's a deeply political issue here and I probably wouldn't be trusted To give the to give the neutral answer the neutral answer Um, so we've got amina and then the gentleman behind there or someone behind there in a blue shirt And we'll take these two questions together And then uh, we'll wrap up then dr. Boswell We'll get another one too. Um professor. I'm a thank you for such a wonderful and erudite presentation I'm consider myself one of the lucky people who've also had the opportunity to benefit generously from this research that you conducted part of which we were involved with in the british journey and my question is Connected to one of the disciplines that you said you draw on which is political science and um I'm really intrigued by this because and then actually your workers inspired me to think about this quite a lot and it's it's the context of Entity in relation to models of citizenship and you talk, um rightly about Convincia and that particular model of well I'd like you to sort of maybe talk a little bit more about that model of citizenship and what you see In that is is there a model there that we can borrow and draw from in the modern period or Is is that sort of modern period more based around a democratic structure of citizenship? That is not available to us in Andalusia. So how do we Make that journey make that connection I'd be Hi, yeah, thank you for the great talk. Um, I just wanted to ask you about the solutions that you propose Which was kind of more interfaith dialogue more prominent experts on islam in the media for example And I'm just wondering whether since we have this problem with religion and europe shouldn't the solution not be more religion But maybe more secularism more humanism and more um teaching about these values that aren't tied to our religious doctrines And then it was another question down here Here Last question Last question. Thank you. Uh, yes. I as a question I want to ask my name is dr. Roger Bose I have a question about muslim spain The muslims were expelled from spain in 1609 to 1614 And this is something that's not taught in schools at all. We learn about the holocaust We don't listen a good example of ethnic cleansing When some 60,000 muslims were expelled to north africa and to to and to Constantinople and even some of them ended up in the new world um, and I want to make a suggestion that a school curriculum should include this in As as an important part of the work Yes, so we have three questions. I'll try to briefly answer them and Release you then into the evening Dr. Amina first first of all, let me express my very warm gratitude for her Incredible support and professor peter morris for the project They joined us in field work contributed at every level In fact, peter morris in the film as the executive producer And they were right from the word go completely behind us and worked with us and were great partners So thank you. Amina and thank you for allowing me to say it publicly And as you know, it's very much in the book and the project now you raised a very serious question And I know that our director would not be happy if he sat all evening and I expounded on it But it really is important because the man I want to refer you to is max weber Who is as it were the guru of modernity? And it's critical because he is the quintessential european philosopher scholar sociologist And political scientist now raising this Specter the specter of Weber in fact leads us to the idea of modernity And I believe that with what's going on now and there's another question about humanism What's going on now challenges the foundations of western modernity at its most basic And europeans have to understand that it's a much bigger battle than just to preserve the muslim minority And therefore what you're saying about how can you clarify these ideas? They have to be clarified not simply in level in terms of immediate strategy tactical strategies, but long-term strategies How do we deal with our citizens on the long on a long-term basis? Because the very basis of modernity is that every citizen has rights. That's max waivers ideal type You cannot say everyone has rights except women and hijab or except muslims or except this or except that And that is happening in many societies in some societies in east europe, for example, it's very open It's open and it's said openly and there are high levels of Islamophobia and anti-semitism and anti-romoism and anti all kinds of minorities So these are european countries and they are in a sense Facing this crisis and I have a feeling they're not fully aware of this theoretical implication that you've raised So I mean, I hope you are now going to write a scholarly paper on precisely this and refer to Weber and Ibn Khaldun Because he brings in the tribalism for europe not north africa. I apply him to european tribalism the Question about religion and more humanism. I think you'd missed out the last 10 minutes So my talk but that's precisely what I said I ended with humanism and I said ended with the importance of humanism in understanding each other Not simply restricting it to religion Dr. Bose talked about Not understanding or not knowing about and the lucia for example in europe and again, he's right. He's the scholar of and the lucia As we traveled we became very aware of two things the south of europe the southern states who knew of under of under lucia and convivencia and in The italian speaking latin speaking a part of europe. It's called convivencia. It still exists But with a different spelling they were aware of this and in some instances. There's still examples of this alive today but northern europe A didn't know about this so take a test just Ask your neighbors about convivencia what it means and b didn't really care very much for it because there's also a north south division in terms of europe Northern europeans by and large think that they have a superior culture more dominant culture etc etc compared to the south We found this throughout your When dr. Bose talks about 1492. He's absolutely right the final expulsion came a few years later But 1492 is the turning point is the year now. I was told again and again by spanish Muslim converts and non-muslim spanish. They said our history books begin teaching history after 1492 So if you're not going to learn about what happened And this huge event in history when the entire muslim and jewish population is expelled You're not you're not going to have any idea what took place And of the civilization of under lucia. That's why I come back to the idea of revisiting Europe european history and then trying to create a new under lucia new synthesis for the future It's it's a challenge and it has to in a sense come from the From the universities the scholars the centers of learning because they have to provide these new ideas These are the challenges of our times and you can see from the questions the public wants answers to this And you know, they hope and expect the scholars to give them some kind of a lead So these are not just academic issues And I want to emphasize that I approach this with great humility because I've lived here I've lived here and I've been a great angle file in my life because I've appreciated English culture. I got my education from English speaking teachers both at university at schools and throughout my life But at the same time I'm aware of the changes taking place in society and the challenges And these challenges have to be met and we can only wish and pray that europe succeeds in this endeavor Thank you Thank you all for coming. I think you'll agree that was a wonderful and very stimulating evening Please pick up your copy of journey into europe on the way out Just outside the door and please go safely this evening. Thank you