 to give it up for Babu and Ranjit and the entire UX India volunteer staff, everybody for making this possible. Let's give them a big hand. Thank you very much. Bringing us all here is a really big deal and we should all be thankful for that. I personally know how difficult it is and can appreciate how little they've slept in the last few days. That said, Nana Hasaru Ras Nanu Balastu Tapu Galanu Madadene. My name is Rasel, hi. My name is Ras, I've made a lot of mistakes. I probably just made two really big ones. I tried, thank you for being forgiving of me. In this presentation, I'm going to tell you about mistakes that I've made and hopefully some things that I've done to adjust and recover from those things moving forward. I'm going to take you back to 1999. This was my first real time as a design leader. I worked for a company that was called a life event marketing company. We did things like, if you were going to get married or have a baby, we would send you a CD-ROM and you could type in form fields and we would let you upload it and create a website for you. Again, 1999. It was the late 90s, right? We knew things like if you were going to have a baby somewhere around seven or eight months into, that's cool, I know. Did I interrupt your presentation? What? Come on. I just told the sound booth, somebody always says, your slides are wrong. They're not. It's good. We knew people who were having babies at seven, eight months in would buy a minivan so we could market to them. That's what this company did. I was a design leader. I loved working there, in fact, for the first month or so, I worked as a designer. I was really kind of just working hard, loving it. One day, my boss came up to me and he said, hey, we need to talk. Come with me. That's pretty scary sounding. I thought I was doing okay. But I also thought at that moment I was getting fired. He took me outside and he said, hey, look, you're doing great. We want you to lead the design team. All right. I'm going to get some more money. I'm going to get some stock options. Has anybody had stock options? Has anybody riched from them? Yeah, every hand went down. That's right. I have a lot of stock options. Oh, by the way, the other person who's leading the team now, he's staying here. There were a lot of challenges in that. I was in way over my head. In fact, I had no real idea what was expected of me. I had no real idea how to design or work with the design team. I only knew previous managers and bosses I'd had that I thought sucked. Because every manager's an idiot until you become one. And so surprise, I'm the idiot. It felt an awful lot like this. Wait, this is the first time I've ever gotten this right where I didn't start it without plugging in the audio. Hold on. Apologize for the delay. But I did feel an awful lot like this. We need to play offense instead of all coming up to bat. Um, what? I apologize, but I don't know your games. I think what Lantern is saying is that it's time for some teamwork. So let's pull it together. Yeah, baby. Clap it up. What's the plan then? Well, he blasts those beams out of his eyes, right? It's settled then. We blind him. That's as good a plan as any. That's about as good as I was. So there's this mistake that companies make. They think that talented designers, talented developers are naturally going to be great at leading a team of designers or developers. And that's not really the same skill set, right? They're very, very different. Leadership skills are entirely different. And I quickly found out that as a first time leader, particularly of a team that I inherited from someone else, that they were already operating as their own team. They didn't really give a darn that I was in charge or worse that I thought I was in charge. And I was going to make a lot of mistakes. I found out things like there are hundreds, thousands of design leadership books. Does anybody have leadership books? Anybody read a leadership book? Anybody feel like you're better for reading it? Hands all went down. By the way, I have a design leadership book coming out. And I do. There really wasn't much help in telling me how to lead a design team. So there I was. I was a manager of a design team. Man, a jerk was more like it. I mean, you can be a leader and not a manager. You can be a manager and not a leader. You can be both and you can be neither. I would say I was neither. In fact, I completely made things up as I went along. I had very little experience, less guidance, no coaching. And this is not an excuse, by the way. This is not me blaming other people. I probably wouldn't have taken any coaching. I probably wouldn't have listened to anybody. I knew, again, what my previous managers were like, and I wanted to be the opposite of them. So that team that I inherited, they had an established culture. They knew their strengths and weaknesses. And I really only knew my style of working. And I thought I was right. I thought I knew the right way to manage this team. Those things didn't overlap very well. In fact, I didn't really have an agreement on how we worked together. People did work their way. They didn't care what I suggested. And by suggested, I mean I told them to do work a certain way. Not really my best thing. Other people, they had their own agendas. They wanted to behave their own way to get things done. I wanted us to be a team that looked like something different. It was a train wreck. I was a train wreck. I was cleaning up all these messes, especially the ones that I was making myself, and then the messes that other people were making, probably because of me. Frankly, I wasn't really sure I was cut out for this. And I've been lucky because I've had coaches and mentors since then who are happy to help. Sometimes that's been an honest talk. Sometimes that's been good advice. Or just caring. Or letting me complain. And then hearing myself complain and realizing how precious I've been. And there's something to be said about receiving advice too, right? Getting opportunities. A lot of times it takes passing of time for people, like myself, to understand things that are being said. So when I was lucky, I had someone who would lead by example for me. When I was extremely lucky, even though it felt like pain at the time, because I was not, not at all, doing a great job, I had someone who, you know, who would set me straight. Well, I've had my ass kicked. You had squat. We had a plan. Let's go, guys! You are a warrior, not a child. Act like it. Yes, ma'am. Now follow me to... I kind of feel like most people, when you get down to it, feel like that a little bit every now and then in their life. Also, that really wanted me to give me... I wanted to give a shout out because of this. We had a wonderful team in the workshop yesterday. Boss ladies. All kinds of kick-ass, right? They were fantastic, who did an excellent job. So, thinking about all of this, I found this great quote by Pamela Druckerman. A lot of people get thrown into this leadership role, and they didn't get any guidance either. There are no grown-ups. We suspect this when we are younger, but can confirm it once we are the ones writing books and attending parent-teacher conferences. Everyone is winging it. Some just do it more confidently. I thought about that in terms of how my life has gone, my career. There are no managers. We suspect this when we are younger, but can confirm it only once we are the ones writing reviews, statements of work, slide decks and attending leadership retreats. And yet, still, everyone is winging it. Some just do it more confidently. We've heard from different organizations who are awesome sponsors of this event, and I can promise you, at some point in their time, they were winging it. When Youge was founded, I promise you, didn't necessarily have any idea what the heck you were doing. You got lucky, you lost some time, you won some time. This stuff is how we all work and live, and it's true. So, thinking back, the first role for me, my first management role, wasn't my team. We never got on the same page. I felt like I had to be the face or the voice of the team. It was pretty arrogant of me. I also felt like I owned whatever work was mine. It wasn't really a good collaborator. Design reviews were based upon a single view, mine. And frankly, one of the things that I didn't really like about myself, I really dislike about myself in hindsight, is that I would get into work at about 7 in the morning, and there were many times I would leave at 11 o'clock at night. I felt like the more hours I worked, the more I cared about the company. I think what I cared about was showing other people that I was better, and that's not super cool. So, there's three key areas that I've been focusing on as I've gone through all of this, and we'll talk about them today. There's something called the team charter, which really focuses on bringing a team together, be that yours or building a new one. There's critique, which I think is essential to how we work as designers, and frankly, how we live our lives as just humans. And finally, talking about culture, especially as it pertains to design teams. So, let's dive right into the team charter. One of the first things that it took me the longest to learn, I should say it wasn't the first thing, it was just the thing it took me the longest to learn, was team building. I'm not talking about that trust fall stuff. That stuff creeps me out, frankly. I don't believe you're going to catch me for one. I don't care for best friends. But anyway, the team building thing was the biggest boost I was given, especially in my career. It was a enterprise company that is very non-specific electrical stuff. Dan should get that. I was waiting for his smile. And we created a thing called team charter. There's a gentleman by the name of Dr. Steve Julius, and he taught me about this. He was a team psychologist for the Chicago Bulls and the Chicago Blackhawks. I frankly think that anybody who can get players on those teams to work together can help me understand very well how to lead teams. So a team charter is really something that's kind of like a unifying plan for a team to kind of get them on the same page. It's a lot like a persona for your team. You cover an awful lot of material and get your team on the same page. And it looks a bit like this. This is a lot of work. This is over the course of a couple of days where we worked very, very difficult, or very hard, very intensely at defining things like the focus area. What are the types of work that we as a design team want to do? What are the types of work more importantly that we don't want to do, if you think about that? We want to do user research, interaction design. Maybe we don't want to do production design work. Maybe we don't want to round corners or make things purple. And that's very important to define that. This is very useful as well when you're creating your job descriptions. We also define the team purpose, right? What does this team do? What do we want others to know about us in a nutshell? What is our team about that we all can agree on and we can understand together? Facilitate this activity where you get this information from folks and you start to get kind of a consensus around, here's who we are. The UX team works with our customers, create useful and usable designs that serve the business goals and objectives. We understand our users, their needs, behaviors and motivations and provide insight into how they use the products that we design. It's fairly general. I think all of us could say this could apply to us. However, once everybody sees it and reads it and understands it, you've got this similar sort of direction for everybody to move together. You also get a team commitment. So there's a little bit more to this where we say we work with each other to share our knowledge and to grow and strengthen the team in all aspects of UX and beyond. We acknowledge and respect our peers, their opinions and the value of their work. We will be critical of work product, yet not the person doing the work. Very important statements when you're talking about a team. This isn't the way Russ feels. This is the way the team feels. The team created this. And those of you in the workshop yesterday know that my views on facilitation are, if you're the facilitator, you should definitely try to step back and stay out of what the decision-making process looks like and just guide them to finding the answers. Then, very critical part here is perception of the team by others. I've worked on teams where today's perception is that we are a service. You come to us for graphic design. You come to us for production work. We need a pound of wireframes and we need them for the client tomorrow. Nobody that I've worked with wants to be that. We want to be something like a trusted partner or experts about our users. You get your team to look at that, help you define that and say, here's our perception today and here's what we want to look like tomorrow. Here's the steps that it's going to take to create that and then how we know when we're there, when we've achieved it. Also talking very candidly about your own areas of growth and improvement that you want to have in this example, experience mapping or journey mapping. If that's something your team hasn't done, they'll tell you, especially if they want to learn it. And they'll give you a reason for why and they'll tell you how many times you should do it to feel like you're experts, how many people should be involved and then the rationale. Why do people want to learn this? What does it gain us? This helps you write your own plan for your team's growth. It's essentially a lot like creating OKRs and once you create these, you can cross them off as you achieve them. Then you have your team sign it. A signature is an agreement. It's like a handshake, an acknowledgement. It means we all went through this together and even if we don't agree on all of the details, we commit to this. This is who we're going to be. It's a lot more powerful than you might think. And like I said, this becomes like a persona for your team and your team, when they work on it, can look messy, can do this. And you can then create a document, a physical document, that you can give to others that show them who you are. You can use this when new people start on your team and it's all about what the team wants to be. And this builds consensus. Having put a team through this a couple of times, what I've learned is that everybody feels connected. Everybody has the same definition of what our design is. Until you do an exercise like this, we all think design is something slightly different or we all think Russ says we do that but we don't do that. It looks like all of these pieces. It's an awful lot of work condensed down to just a handful of things. And you can do it too. There's a slide share where I've done this as a workshop for other folks where you can create your own team charter. And the benefits of this are pretty solid from where I sit. You get your team's purpose, your team's commitment, focus areas, areas of improvement, the perception of the team by others, and it's this unified agreement. This is kind of where you start to shape a brand new culture for your team. And you can extend a good solid culture by continuing with a good foundation for critique. Critique is actionable feedback. We've heard that more than once over the last couple of days. It's exceptionally valuable, especially when you're doing design. It's one of the best places that you can start to learn about this is in Discussing Design by Aaron Irizari and Adam Connor. They don't always wear masks. One of the challenges that I had as a design leader was we had large teams. I worked on teams from 13 to almost 50, and when you are a design leader, it's difficult, or it was difficult for me to separate myself from being in charge of the design. I felt like I had to bless everything that went out the door. Pro tip, you don't have to. I didn't have to. And as a team keeps growing, you will find yourself getting further and further away from the actual final product in a lot of cases. We also knew in several different, or a couple of different examples, we also knew that we wanted to do a better job of critique. I just didn't know, and the team didn't know, how to make this a part of our formalized process. We had Adam Connor. He came in and talked to us. We also listened to the UIE session on critique to kind of learn more about how we could be better at critique. And it's still, while that was very strong and solid, kind of me working on a team with distributed folks. So I thought back to Kim Goodwin, who said this at Interaction Design 2009 in Vancouver. Each one, teach one. I love this concept. How could I apply this quote, however, to establish good critique as an interwoven thread within a design team? Maybe this is better as each one teach many, or just each one teach. So came up with something called critique buddies. Is everybody as excited about that name as I was? Right, no one is. I understand. It's a lousy name. You're probably thinking, right? More like that. I didn't say I was good at branding. Now calling it critique groups, or just critique, because it becomes just critique. So there's a very simple framework that I ended up coming up with and I say I. I just want to make sure that I'm really clear about this. I worked with others to constantly refine and make this better. The first time I did this, I chose two people on my team to be critique leaders. Then we chose teams for them. We tried very hard to make sure that we found people who don't normally work together and people who are in different locations. And it's kind of turned into each one teach two or three or so. And the learning is two ways. The critique leaders are facilitators and schedulers, and they participate as well. They receive critique and give critique. So the setup for this is kind of basic. You nominate your critique leads. And I say nominate because I don't see these as permanent positions. These are things that you switch out every six weeks, three months, every half year, year. But you nominate critique leads and you help build a team of buddies with them, other critique participants. And so everybody has their own team. Like I said, you focus on connecting people who don't normally get to work together. Now this says to select three or four buddies. I thought that was reasonable and we learned over time that two to three is more like it because it's a lot of time for one person to manage three or four schedules. Two to three is better. You give them a cadence. Over time, what I initially suggested was one-on-one meetings. You'd have a critique lead meeting with three other people. Over time, we've learned that this just isn't as sustainable. So instead, three to four members, two to three members having them meet once every week or two weeks. So in case you don't know, by the way, there's a mirror back there and I'm watching the camera do some crazy things. So I see that. That's interesting. So you have everybody meet every week or two weeks for a 30-minute session and people sign up for 10-minute slots. Three minutes left. Is that what you think? Congratulations. You act like this is my first time in India. We've got a lot more to go, folks. Buckle in. So then you do bi-weekly critique team meetings. Everybody should participate. Everybody should be open to it. You should also make sure that you're including people from other UX disciplines. We have content strategy. We have visual design. We have front-end design, UX, which is interaction design and research. I've had people help critique emails that I'm writing to executives. They're not open for an opinion here. Start with one-on-one meetings. Just have your leader get to know the team and what their needs and strengths are, weaknesses. And then, again, start doing that bi-weekly schedule. And haven't yet figured out how to do this, but once a month, once a quarter, bring together everybody for a critique meeting. Do it for like an hour and invite the whole company in to see what you're working on. The best way I know to evangelize design is to let other people see what we do, dispel the magic. There's not much magic to this stuff. Let them see what we do. Let them see the questions that we ask. And then, with some sort of regular cadence, maybe bi-weekly, have leader meetings with your critique leaders and create a manual for how to do this so that you can continually have new critique leaders rotating in or out. And that's really it. I've done this more than once and it's become a really strong sort of way for the teams to grow. And there's some benefits here. For one, as the design leader, it frees me as a primary reviewer of all design. Especially when you've got kind of a wheel-and-spoke model or a hub-and-spoke model where you've got teams that are agile or lean that are working together, those teams can be a little more self-responsible for their design. Adam and Aaron will tell you things like, critique is not a design skill, it's a life skill. Identify leaders and leadership in your team by how they handle taking on this role of design leads. You can understand the growth and training needs as you start to look at what's happening with other people on the team. You can strengthen your critique abilities across the team, learn how to frame that so that you're doing it really well with clients as well as internal customers. You get this distributed strength and communication so that somebody, for me, I work in Chicago and I may never see the person in Washington, D.C. We get to work together even though we're on different projects. We get to learn different things that are happening across different projects, which only makes us better. Improves facilitation and improves design across the team. Now let's talk about culture. This is my favorite part of this deck. Design leaders set the tone. Sometimes that means you have to pick a fight with the biggest bully in the prison or schoolyard or whatever that is. For me, that's generally how I felt about things in the past, meaning I had to pick a fight with that bully, that not-so-great person that I was. I started out by saying I've made a lot of mistakes by doing all of these next things wrong. In fact, I would say that some of the jobs I've worked in, I was kind of a culture killer. I was a cancer. You wouldn't want to work with me. Or you'd want to work with me for a while, but then I just had a bad attitude. I don't think managers knew how to fix me. And so they brushed me aside or put me on projects where I couldn't do much damage. Or worse, I was ignored. And I've discussed a couple of times the functional things that have helped me along the way. With culture, it's less functional, perhaps more philosophical. Things like discouraged heroic efforts. I mentioned that I worked from 7 in the morning to 11 o'clock at night. That's ridiculous. If you're a working parent and some kid is coming in here and working 12 or 14, 16 hours a day, that's silly. And frankly, if I'm your manager and I'm letting that happen, I'm placing the wrong value. In fact, I've probably messed up in terms of how we've scoped projects or how much work we think you can do. In fact, if you've got somebody working like that, you've probably got enough of a justification to hire another person. When one person works two extra hours a day, that's one free week of work to an employer. Assuming that there's no paid overtime. When two to three people are doing it, maybe you need to be hiring. Raising your hand is a sign of strength. I was never that good at telling supervisors I couldn't handle something. Now I encourage it. Again, just like I said on the last slide, maybe I'm not doing the best job of scoping work. Maybe someone else isn't. We need to have those conversations. There are plenty of places where if you raise your hand or ask for help, it makes it seem like you're not good enough. Or you're not competent enough in your job. That's crap. We need to make sure that people understand and raise their hand that that's absolutely a gift to us as leaders. They are telling us things that are broken in the system that we can fix and make it easier and better for them to do their job. Work hard, play hard? Have we all seen that in a job description? You can tell how I feel about it. I believe that everybody works hard and plays hard. I love having a team of coworkers. And if you want me to spend time with them, make time for it in our work day. We never know what people have to do in their lives outside of work. Somebody could be taking care of a parent, a child. They might just not want to hang out with coworkers. And they might not want to feel like they have to give up their evenings or their school or whatever it is. Ask your teams how they feel about this. Odds are nobody's ever asked them. They just scheduled a three-hour happy hour after work and thought it was a gift. Maybe it's not. In fact, you want to make sure that you give people time to do their job. I say to keep them weird. We hire, we're all weird. Those who are exceptionally good at what they do, I think are even more weird. And I love that and I cherish it. And if your thing is taking pictures of bugs in the evening in the park, then we need to make sure you have time to do that because that's why we hired you in the first place. Also, give people permission to tell other people, no. Saying no is very difficult. And I've worked on teams where people would come up and do this design thing for me. That stinks because as a designer, I want to help you. I want to do that. But I've also got my own deadlines. One of my tricks here is to tell people to say, you know what? I'm working on this thing. Ask Russ. If he says it's cool, good. That's giving them the ability to say no because nine times out of ten times, that request never ever makes it to me. Right? And then from feeling like they're pissing off someone else. Set people up for success. Look, there are times when things go wrong and individuals make mistakes. I firmly believe that yes, we have to address those. Even when it's me. The other thing is though, we have to take a look at our systems and we have to make sure that the system didn't allow it to happen. Maybe the way we operate didn't set that person up for success and they did something that helped them to go off the path. So we have to do our best to ensure the system is set up to avoid those types of incidents. Hack the org chart. Everybody sees an org chart and they know how they're supposed to be and we have a certain number of leaders and managers and other things that we can do. When you introduce something like critique, you can give people the opportunity to be leaders without having a formal title. Is there something you can give them to own? Can you maybe start to do a side project that is a design system and can they start to run with it and you can see how they work on that and you can coach them. Let people own things. Make it easy to be successful at something people are good at while helping them learn a new skill. Mitigate design surprises. I love this quote from Thomas Vanderweil. Design surprises are timeline assassins. If you want to succeed at design reviews, include your clients, your stakeholders in the design process. Don't show up like an ad agency and say here's three designs, pick one and then we'll go back for two weeks and work and we'll do it again and again and again, no, make your clients part of the process. This should be obvious to us and I know that that can be difficult but this is the best way that I know to mitigate design surprises. Lighten up. I once had a conversation with a previous manager where we were walking down the hall and he said to me that he didn't feel he could give up any of his work. He didn't feel like he could kind of try to reduce all the overhead that he had and I said, well, can't you take some let someone else go to some of your meetings. Can't we delegate some of this? I just can't do it, he said and I said, well, you should give somebody else a chance to succeed or fail because someone's doing it for you right now and that was a really kind of turning moment for me because I couldn't believe I was that wise and we should have some compassion. We should give people time to succeed and fail. That means that not everybody's going to work at our own pace so build in a little extra for them. Also, slow down. One of the things that Mina said this morning is that we have the best job. We get to go and listen to users and watch them work and that is fantastic. So we need to slow the hell down and make sure that we're taking the time right. This is a quote from Jason Freed of 37 Signals, which is now base camp. He watched Richard Saul Werman give a presentation and Richard Saul Werman came off stage and he said, I didn't like your talk in so many words and Richard Saul Werman said, man, give it five minutes. It's think, not react. Let something breathe a bit. One of the things I really have learned too is that if there's a fire drill at four o'clock at night, if you wait till ten o'clock in the morning, there's a good chance it got solved without you having to work all night. It's very difficult to do that but let things breathe and while we're talking about fives, give things five years. When pressing challenging situations show up instead of reacting, ask yourself this question, will this matter five years from now? If yeah, do something about it. And speaking of letting it go, I know that when I was first becoming a design leader, I felt like I owned design. It's a really big mistake. I was more like a creative dictator and that's not cool. I had to learn to let things go and let people own other things. There are people in organizations who like to own little pieces of work so that they feel like they can never be fired. I prefer to take those as opportunities and share them with other people on the team. If you do a great job at owning this small thing, great, let's figure out how we can give it to the next person and move you on to something more. That's a big idea or a big deal. We should be able to do that with everybody for a lot of those things. Owning things just ties you down, prevents you from getting your own promotions. Now another thing here is that words are important. When we hire organizations, we like to say things like culture ad or culture fit. We want to hire for culture fit. I like to hire for culture ad. Homogeneity is not a good thing. We are better because we are all different. Let's bring those folks in who make a stronger and different and get better perspectives. 18F, where I work currently, has a slack bot. We call it a guy's bot. There are a lot of us in here today that are referred to as guys and about half of us aren't guys. So if you say words like guys and you're addressing an audience of 50% women, are we really doing them a service? This has changed the way I speak and to others. It allows me to think before I speak. It helps me choose a little more inclusive language. Additionally when we're writing our job descriptions there are services out there like Textio where you can send your position descriptions to make sure that the language that's used in those position descriptions are a bit more inclusive. Words like competitive may be more leaning toward men and may have men applying more for your roles. Words like collaborative may be more appealing to women. Take that under consideration and think about that. If you want a more diverse workforce, more inclusive workforce, a better opportunity to hire more people to be more inclusive. One of the final things here is servant leadership. Our job as leaders besides all of these other things is to do everything that we can do to help people find their next jobs, be that here or somewhere else. It's also to help them do their job today and not get worn down by senseless meetings or bureaucracy or all these other things and the best way that I know how to do this is to be a servant leader, to be a shit umbrella. Get that stuff out of the way for other people and make sure that they have what they need to do their job. I say that zero, I'm going to keep going. Don't worry about it. We're good. We're at the end. So what with all of this stuff, right? Did something happen that I missed? So the so what with all of this, sorry. I thought maybe a glitch happened on my screen. These were all the things I talked about. All of these stem from my very early years. The team charter happens through facilitation, collaboration. It's a social contract that gives ownership of the team to the team. It's really important. It really hurts me to think of people I've likely heard along the way because I wasn't ready to be this type of leader. And I want to make sure that other teams that I work with in the future and now have this to work together and know that it's less about me. Critique, right? It's a life skill. It's a big, huge part of design. We need to have that and all of these culture pieces help us just become a better place to work. Hey guys, folks. Get out of your own way. Let's try this again. This is bigger than I am and it's bigger than you are. Get out of your own way. Focus on what's important here. Everyone else. Everyone else. That was Batman, by the way. That's like Batman say. A leader is best when people barely know she exists. When her work is done, her aim fulfilled, they will say, we did it ourselves. I love this quote from Lao Tzu. I don't make all the decisions on a team anymore. I used to do that. I used to think everything was mine. Find people who won't agree with everything you say or you want to do and put them in leadership positions to support you. Hire smartly. It may slow things down, however, it will feel more inclusive. It will make you feel more informed and it will feel like you're building something that people want to be a part of. So get out of the way. One of the things that my old boss said to me about where I work today is we hire smart people and we get that out of the way. That's magical. It doesn't let you off the hook to lead, nor to continue to learn and build better skills. It just means that, you know, you're hiring all these smart people. Don't try to pin them in or don't try to fence them in. Bonus number two here, this isn't really faking it until you make it. Just keep on winging it confidently. Everybody else is. All of these folks who have been on the stage have been winging it just as much as I have to get to the point where we are today and we're going to be better at winging it today. Thank you very much.