 Good evening, everyone, and welcome to this special online edition of the Festival of Politics 2021 in partnership with the Scottish Parliament Think Tank Scotland's Futures Forum. I'm Bruce Adamson, I'm the Children and Young Peoples Commissioner Scotland, and I've also had the privilege of being the chair of the European Network of Ombuds Persons for Children this year. Yn cael ei gweithio, mae'r panel yn cael ei gweithio ar eu cynnig o ysgolion cystafol a'u cyfnodol. Mae'n adon ni'n dwylo i'n gwybod hwnnw sydd yna gael gwybod i chi'n gweithio ar gweithio'n gweithio. Mae hwnnw ymddangos wedi'u panel i'r cyhoeddiol. Ond y gweithio'r gweld yn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio hynny. so pieces forward in online is drawing on our tech beings who have published to me. We want to see your questions and your comments in the chat. You are very much part of the discussion, as well as our experts' speakers. Again two very important people who are joining us are our two BSL interpreters, Heather and Bruce. They will be helping us all to make sure that we can communicate effectively. Thank you so much to them in advance. Felly, mae'n gweithio i ei gwrthoedd gweldio am ymbu yn edrych i chi'n ymweldio i chi'n eu gallu gylliド較io ar gyfer y gwrthoedd yn ymweldio? Ég emiddi yn ddwybod ni'n amdarnol, os ymrwybod i chi'n gweithio ar y gwaith? Gweithio ar gyfer y gweithio â'r groffeyb ynegol, a oedd yn amser i gyd-dynnu gan ond o'r gwaith iawn ac yn oedd o'r llwythydd? Mae'r panhleidau yw i ddim yn gweithio mewn gweithio a chyroes aeth yn gweld i'r siwr. Get involved in the chat, when you do, if you could put in where you are, whether that's in Scotland or somewhere else, and also stating your name as well. So we get a good sense of where you're joining us from. I'm exceptionally excited to be introducing you to our four amazing panellists. We have Emily Farquhar, who is an operational volunteer for 2050 climate group, and she also acts as the 2016 volunteer ambassador for Edinburgh and the Lothians, so you're very welcome, Emily. We also have Liam Fowley, MSYP, who is the current vice-chair of the Scottish Youth Parliament. Liam was elected as an MSYP for Kilmarnock and Urban Valley in March 2019, and we have Professor Dave Ray, who is chair of carbon management and education at the University of Edinburgh. He's also the director of the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute and a policy director at Climate Exchange. You're very welcome as well, Professor Ray. The final member of our panel is Professor Pete Higgins, who is a professor of outdoor environmental and sustainability education at the University of Edinburgh, and director of learning for Sustainability Scotland. It is great to see you all. We've got this great panel. We've got all of you. If you want to join in online on Twitter, the hashtag for the whole Festival of Politics is hashtag FOP2021, so you can join in there. Within this session, as I say, go on to the chat, give us your name and where you are, and any comments or questions, very welcome. Education and sustainability are closely linked in human rights terms. I've got the best job in the world as children's commissioner because it's my job to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people across Scotland. In terms of human rights to education, the purpose of education is to develop all children and young people to their fullest potential. The Convention on the Rights of the Child specifically goes into the fact that the development of respect for the natural environment is a specific requirement on the state in terms of education. We've seen young human rights defenders and young environmental defenders really leading the way in terms of our understanding of what needs to change in terms of sustainability. This link between education and sustainability is something that's really important in human rights terms. I'd like to begin by asking each of our panellists to summarise reasonably quickly some opening remarks on what is the role of education in building a sustainable society and what does that look like. If you don't mind, I'll come to you, Emily, first and then we'll go through in the order that I introduced you is probably a good way to start. Emily, I'll pass to you. For me, the main purpose of education is to provide people with the knowledge, the skills, the values and the morals that they need to integrate into and contribute positively to society. If you translate that into the context of building sustainable societies and think about how we do that, the role that education can play is to equip learners with the knowledge, the skills, the values and the morals that they need to uphold sustainable and socially just patterns of living throughout their lives. What that looks like for me in practice is schools and other education institutions across the board adopting a learning for sustainability approach to their teaching, which incorporates global citizenship, outdoor learning and sustainable development education as well. Ultimately, with the aim of producing well-rounded people who understand and appreciate their environment, culture and heritage and who also have a strong connection to nature. I think that if we can achieve that across the whole of Scotland and ideally across the whole world, the result will be a population who understand the significance of their choices now and in the future as well, which will vastly reduce the risk of irreversible anthropological climate change and various social injustices as well. That was a well-rounded introduction to set off our discussion. I will pass now to you, Liam. I think that it would be really important to have my automatic response there. We have obviously spoken with a lot of young people. It is all about our organisation here to represent young people. Overwhelmingly, young people say that it is individuals who have the responsibility when it comes to tackling climate change, but they need to be supported in doing so. We cannot just all be climate experts because it is a very complex subject and young people themselves will admit that. The complexities of climate change are vast. Being supported into knowing how to tackle climate change is a really important one. The learning for sustainability action plan has obviously been published and things like that. That is a really important element there. It is about addressing the needs of young people there as well. Learning that an adult may have to do has gone through most of his life is going to be vastly different to that of someone who is in secondary school. In schools themselves, there needs to be more of a well-rounded approach. All subject areas should have a responsibility there to discuss sustainability and climate change because they are all interlinked no matter what classroom you go into. That is a really important element. Ultimately, young people need to be supported in learning how to live systemally. Brilliant. Again, I am coming through strongly the idea that everything is interlinked and should not be pigeonholed. I am passing now to you, Professor Reign. Thanks, Bruce. All the best things have been said already, Paul. Pete has to come after me. I have a huge amount to add to what has already been said other than admitting my own bias as someone who loves teaching and as an educator. It is fundamental in terms of a sustainable future for our planet, not just the people on it but our natural league systems as well. Education is at the heart of all the sustainable development goals. If we look at the challenges that we face throughout human history, we have got through them well where we have had good information and good education and we have really faulted where we have not had that. The pandemic is an ongoing example of successes and failures. I think what it looks like for me is we have talked about integrating things. It is really that systems thinking. This is at every level in terms of the lifelong education. It is being able to understand the links between what you do and the implications of that. Everything that we do in our lives is linked to what everyone else is doing and to those natural league systems. That systems thinking is at the heart of it for me in terms of realising that sustainability through education. Brilliant, thanks so much. I think again that link to the wider the sustainable development goals, the wider human rights framework is really important as well. Education is often described as a human rights multiplier, which I think is really important that education is sitting right at the heart of all of this. The tough job now, Professor Higgins, is to come last in a panel of four. I do promise I will switch the order around as we go so you will not always be following but I know you will have some great things to say anyway. I do not mind a tool, I could just say what they said and finish there. I will say a few things. There is a quote that I am very fond of and it goes a bit like this. The role of education is to form the citizen. The citizen is a person who, if needs be, can refound civilisation. That may seem a bit overdramatic, though some would argue that the current twin climate and biodiversity crises suggest that we are at this point. I pretty much believe that we are. We really have got a few years to deal with the issues that we face today. However, even if we are not, the idea of the ultimate purpose of education being to help, civilisation, move forward, respectful of current future generations and of global biodiversity, upon which we utterly depend, seems to me to be entirely logical and moral and a beautiful thought. As for the focus of education, Emily said that she used the core capacities that we have talked about in the development of learning for sustainability as a concept for Scottish schools. I have really nothing much more to add other than the idea that we think of ourselves as respectful of the natural world rather than just users. Or even conservers or managers. We need to develop that notion of respect with regard to the natural world as well as with all others on this planet. Thanks, Bruce. Brilliant, thank you. I think that everyone watching will agree that that is a fantastic starting point for us all to build on. Let's move into some questions now. There's a few that I've got here and I can see people in the chat are already starting to engage as well. My first question would be around the quality of education. How important is quality education for children and young people helping us all make informed choices about our own impact, but also perhaps reflecting on how we engage with systemic issues and engaging with governments as well. How important is the quality of education there? Emily, do you want to go first again? Of course, no problem. Of all the investments that are needed to support sustainable development, few are more important than ensuring that everybody gets quality education. Quality education prioritises teaching equality, skills development, building emotional intelligence, provides adequate infrastructure for learning, learning equipment and prioritising knowledge sharing. That is important because I believe that a person cannot make a proper choice without the proper information and the proper perspective. So making sure that we provide everybody, both adults and children and all sorts of learners with a quality education is vital to ensuring that people are able to make informed decisions on the impacts of their actions. Brilliant. Thanks Emily. Liam, I know that you've been doing a lot, particularly over the Covid period on education. Do you have any thoughts around the importance of the quality of education? I've got loads. It's really important, ultimately. What's important to recognise is that young people don't just learn in a classroom, in a school. There are other forms of learning in formal curriculum, for example, in youth work. All play a really important part in supporting the young person's development and learning experience, especially when it comes to sustainability. If we get young people outside more, it's much better than being in a classroom and learning bed. Ultimately, it's super important to make sure that young people have a say in their education and co-designing of that curriculum. They know what they're going to be learning about and what they've got an active say in how they're learning as well. I think that are all really important parts. Young people very much have to be on this journey. Obviously, young people are very much at the forefront of this as well. Young people have to be brought along with us on this journey and not be told what to do when it comes to this. As Emily had rightly said, you can't make informed action if you don't have that learning base. I think that's a hugely important point. Again, that point about participation and making sure that children and young people of all ages are actively involved in designing and being part of how their education is delivered inside and outside the classroom. A good opportunity to come to you, Dave, in terms of what's the importance of the quality of education. What makes quality education? All the things that have been talked about, but one of the key things is investment and support in teachers. That is something that is obviously fundamental. You would think that it would be a given, but in terms of where we need to get to, in terms of sustainability and climate education, that just won't come out of Ether. Actually, that means putting the time into teacher training, into making sure that they've got the time and the resources. One of the things, so I mainly work on climate change. One of the things there is there's loads of resources out there on climate change, but the quality question is a really good one because actually not all of those resources might be as high quality as others. As an educator, having help in terms of that quality assessment, what's useful, making sure that it fits with what you've got to actually deliver in the classroom, that's a vital part of where we're starting to get to, but we need to do better on that so that when you're in front of a class, whether it's out on a field trip or in a physical class or online, you feel confident to be able to deliver that education in a high quality way. Absolutely. I think that's the really important part about supporting the system and where the support needs to be and the duty on the state to provide that. Pete, can I bring you in here on that question around the importance of quality, but also maybe get any of your reflections on the quality and effectiveness of what's currently available in Scotland? Yes, thanks Bruce. I think that the notion of quality always tickles me really because with regard to education, why would you want anything else? Of course education has to be of quality, it has to be of high quality. We wouldn't want to offer anything else and yet there is a lot of patchiness out there really. When I think of this concept, I feel the need to locate it in the context in which young people are growing up and the world that we face now is a world of increasing complexity, where the issues that we face are interdisciplinary, involve social and scientific dimensions. So quality education has to address this complexity, interdisciplinarity and the systemic approach that Dave mentioned earlier, the systems thinking approach. I work quite a lot with teachers, both pre-service and in-service. Whenever I talk to groups of teachers, I say to them at the end, remember that you are the most important people in the world, really they are, because you might think that healthcare professionals or others are the most important people, they are if you need healthcare. Of course, where did they get their initial education? They got it through a school system and that is why school systems across the nation have to be equitable. They have to make sure that we can allow all people who need education into them without any form of prejudice or privilege, really. I hope that that has answered enough of your question for now, Bruce, before I start rattling on about all sorts of other things. I think we could all listen to you all night, so please don't apologize about rattling on. I wonder whether the panellists have got any reflections on maybe what Scotland is doing well in terms of education and what maybe could we learn from other countries and is there any examples that anyone has got about things that maybe other countries are doing that we could learn from, or things that Scotland is doing really well that perhaps we should be exporting to other places as well. That comparative value, given that this is a global challenge that we are facing and the real value of learning from others. The wonders of technology allows me to see you all, even though we are not in the same place. If anyone wants to throw a hand up, otherwise I will pick you up. Dave, do you want to come in there? Pete, I see you there. There is a lot of good practice around, through the climate change lens specifically. For the UK, the net zero strategy came out this week, which is a massive document that I do not think anyone has read apart from the people who wrote it. In there, if you go to page 200 and something, there is a commitment there for the UK to bring forward a strategy that aligns children's services, education at all levels with the net zero transition. That is good to see. We have already had those conversations in Scotland as well. I would argue that we are ahead of the curve in terms of knowing where those gaps are like we talked about in terms of support for teachers, the resources, etc. Looking overseas, one of the ones that I look at with MV is France. They have an office for climate education there, which is one of the UNESCO centres. Since 2005, they have had their environmental education mandate across their education system. You can see the benefit of that in conversations. Some of those who studied in 2005 are now teaching or working in universities. The understanding of the issues that we are facing on sustainability and climate has been mainstreamed. There are examples. They would say that they are not getting it perfect. That is definitely true. I think that they can learn from us in some respects, in terms of how we are particularly led by people like Pete, how sustainability has become something that has to be delivered effectively within our education system. It would be great if that happened down south as well. I think that we are at that stage where everyone knows that we need to do this and do it better, but no one is doing it perfectly yet. It is a very nice and diplomatic answer. I will come to you, Pete. I will add in to the question, something that has come in from the chat, which I am starting to see now from Bob Hill in Montrose, who has asked about how we add this into an already crowded curriculum. Is there an issue that something would have to come out of the curriculum in order for us to add this in? How does it all fit together, Pete? The first thing to say is that this is not my estimation, but Scotland is widely regarded as a world leader in learning for sustainability. When Emily made her first statement, some of the words that she was using referred very closely to the terminology used in learning for sustainability. This was an initiative of the Scottish Government that started in 2011, and we have now learning for sustainability as an entitlement of all learners and a professional requirement of all teachers. It is remarkable that it does not exist anywhere else, so all credit to the Scottish Government for initiating that and allowing us to work on it to develop it. It is also linked closely with the UN Sustainable Development Goals. That is not to say that others have not been doing really good work out there, and it is not to say that everything is perfect here. The current situation is quite patchy, some outstanding practice out there and other places where people don't really seem to see it as a priority. There are elements of that that I think that we can really improve. In terms of other nations, I would say that Finland is of course a world leader in education, and even though that is the case, it recently revised its whole education system to place sustainability at its core. Closer to home, Wales has made a great commitment with its Future Generations Act. There are other countries in a recent OECD review, such as Canada and Singapore, that did very well in terms of global competency. There is a lot of good stuff out there. We, in Scotland, are quite thoughtful in our approach to how we argue that we have a good approach here, but there are things that are quite unique. For example, both Liam and Emily referred to the importance of outdoor learning as part of our concept of learning for sustainability. That engagement with the natural world is actually pretty much unique and very powerful. The research evidence is clear. In terms of that lovely question that is very difficult to answer, the curriculum is crowded. I think that we need to think much more clearly about going back to the capacities of learners to deal with complex interdisciplinary issues, particularly through the systems thinking approach and how the subject disciplines become the servants of the core questions. There has to be some part of the education system that allows that to happen. That is precisely what Finland has done with its approach to the curriculum. It has said, yet we are going to teach subjects, but we are going to teach them partially, at least through the systems thinking approach. They call it phenomenal learning or phenomenal learning in Finland. We have the opportunity to do this at the moment because the SQA is being reviewed, revised and who knows what is going to come of that. Dave and I work in a university. Universities are culpable in requiring students to provide high-level grades in specific subject areas. We need to think much more carefully about the quality of thinking of the students that we bring into our universities, rather than worry just about the grades. I hope that that helps, Bruce. It doesn't, again. It resonates very strongly in terms of a rights-based approach. Liam, do you want to come in and comment on any of that in terms of what you think might be going well? Some of the examples that we have heard from Pete and Dave, some of the international comparators as well? I think that there is a whole lot going on. In many areas of Scotland, there are some very good examples of how it is going well. That brings in the issue that it is not consistent, but I think that individually it is going well. If I take it back to even training teachers, I am a student teacher. Throughout a lot of my learning, there has been discussion on how to integrate learning versus development and climate change. Just mentioning it now and relating it back on certain subject matters, but also how to start thinking about, as Pete was saying, an interdisciplinary approach, a whole-school approach, getting young people involved in making their own decisions in the school, and how can the school start acting more sustainably, making young people again? As I said before, bringing in young people on the journey with the adults and the teachers and things like that, to get them thinking about how we are making sustainable choices in the school as well, and we have things like parking stride that are starting to come in as well. That is about walking to school and things like that. It is not just about walking to school, we are going to learn about why we have to walk to school, what is it doing, how we are helping it and things like that. I think that there are lots of good examples across the whole of Scotland with that. I think that what we now have to start working on is joining the dots and making it more joined up and consistent across the country. So all young people are getting a very similar learning experience when it comes to, especially when it comes to climate change. Brilliant. Thanks, Liam. That is really useful again, as well as your perspective in terms of being a trainee teacher as well, but also the use of young people across Scotland through the youth Parliament. Emily, do you want to come in on that point? Yes, of course. I think that because I am not working directly in education, I am not a teacher. I think that my impressions of the quality and effectiveness of the education currently in Scotland will not be as maybe up to date as the other panellists, but I do feel that I might be able to provide a bit of an insight on my opinion because I graduated from secondary school in 2016, so five years ago. My experience of that going through primary and secondary school, I do not remember getting a lot of formal sustainable development education particularly. There was not very many discussions about anything to do with sustainability at all. However, what I do remember is a lot of outdoor education. That was quite a strong part of my learning. I am not sure if that was just my schools or if it has been mentioned, but Scotland does have quite a good focus on outdoor education and it is possible that that was what contributed to that. I do feel that that was instrumental in developing my personal connection with nature. That is a testament to the effectiveness of outdoor education in promoting sustainable behaviours and the importance of prioritising outdoor education. I urge all educators to take that into account when developing their curriculum and continue to build that into the curriculum in Scotland because I think that it is really important. Absolutely. We all very strongly agree with you there, Emily. Again, it comes through very strongly from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child when it talks about education, that important role about outdoor education and about that understanding and respect for the natural environment. We are also seeing a lot of good comments and questions coming through in the chat. Thanks all for that. I am going to weave a couple of those in now and I will come back to some of the other questions later. If you have put in a question and I have not asked it yet, we will come back to those. I was particularly interested in some of the stuff that you were saying earlier, Pete. Others were saying about learning for sustainability and how it infuses the whole of Scottish society, building our capacity to contribute sustainability at the local, national and global level. That is being reflected in some of the comments in the chat. Julie Marshall, who is an air, said that she thinks that there is a strong link between education, sustainability and creating a good society that crosses lots of boundaries from social justice, inequality and rights-based approaches. Mark Langdon added in some critical thoughts around saying, is there a risk that we are focusing too much on the answers to climate justice lying in individual actions? He suggests that that might be misinformed when our focus should be on systemic and broader issues and points to capitalism and colonialism being significant drivers of the issues that we are facing at the moment. Also linked back to a question from Julie Marshall, who focused back on teachers and the thought that how do we support teachers? More broadly, in fact, she is saying, the first teachers that children have are their parents, families and communities. It takes a village to raise a child and so outside of the formal education system as well. So there's a lot coming in, which I think links very strongly with what you've all been saying, but perhaps Pete, I'll throw back to you there then because I think this links very strongly with what you were talking about in terms of the plan that we've got in Scotland for learning for sustainability and bringing all of those different aspects together. I'll pass back to you, Pete. Sorry, that's a bit of a rambling collection of ideas, but hopefully you'll take some inspiration from it. I'll try and there are a number of concepts in there that I'd like to refer to, but I'll try not to take too long about it. I think the first thing is to say that Scotland's got a really long tradition going right back for basically the past hundred years in terms of trying to build sustainability into education, and that's grown over the last 20 years in particular to the point that we are just now. It's a big thing to do to try to build sustainability at that level and at that scale. We're all doing what we can, but we're on that journey now. How is it going? Well, I think that that process has been going quite well, but one of the things that's really helped has been the Scottish Government's commitment to the UN's sustainable development goals, which the First Minister signed up to the minute they were published, and then to build these into the national performance framework. So in terms of what we're hoping for our society to become, all you need to do is look at the picture of the national performance framework and you see all the same colours as the SDGs, but actually that needs action in each of these, and in particular it needs these to be integrated together through policy. And it's very easy to say, oh, this is the job of education without realising, it's also the job of health, it's also the job of environment, it's also the job of agriculture, forestrys, fisheries and food. So we need to be sure that our national policies are joined up and if we do so, I think we'll get multiple benefits that will infuse the whole of society. In terms of the issue of the individual having too much weight on their shoulders, I feel that very strongly. It's a point that Mark made and you referred to there Bruce. It's one thing for educators to help people to understand that our actions can have a significant consequence for other parts of the world as well as here at some time in the future. It is another thing entirely to encourage people to think, that means I need to know how to vote, that means I need to know what politicians are saying, that means I need to be able to interrogate their answers, their questions, interrogate their views and question them. And to be really thinking critically analysing individual who is suspicious of the arguments that people put forward until you're convinced. So it's that restlessness that I want to see in all of us whenever we see a politician promoting one thing or another or indeed we're exposed to fake news or whatever it might be. It's that critical thinking that will allow us to get there. And I want to see Scottish Government policy built around those sorts of values within the national performance framework and its policy infrastructure really. So it was a rambling set of questions and a rambling set of answers. I'm sorry Bruce. No, please don't apologise. I think that that was beautifully answered and I think particularly the link to the fact that Scotland was one of the first places to sign up to the SDGs and then took the further step of embedding within the national performance framework. And we've also seen more recent commitments to the incorporation of rights and so we've already got legislation which is meeting amendments on the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Childs, which has been interpreted to bring in a lot of concepts around respect for the natural environment and sustainability. But also we've got further commitments from Scottish Government to specifically incorporate rights around the natural environment as part of a new piece of legislation. We would hope to see next year and so some of these legal processes as well, turning some of that rhetoric into policy and actions, hugely important. Who else wants to come in on that? You can pick any one of those points that we came to but Emily, did you want to come at this stage? Yeah, I mean I think Mark Landon's comment about people thinking that the answers to climate justice lie in individual actions and that being wrong. I also, in the same way as Pete, that resonates with me a lot. I think that there's a lot of focus on pressure for action to be taken from the bottom up. We're always told that we need to sort of recycle more and turn the lights off more and travel less and things and those are all very true. I'm not saying I don't agree with that if I do, but I think we do also need to be teaching people in all levels of education that there is a big issue with the way climate action needs to be taken from the top down as well. We need to put much more of a focus on that in my opinion. I just wanted to say to Mark that I do agree with your comment and we do need to focus more on that in education. Brilliant, I strongly agree as well. Dave, did you want to come in at this stage? Yeah, I mean just like Emily says, it's kind of, and Pete said it as well. If we're thinking of it through the education lens, it is having that understanding of the system. It's that systems thinking. So, you know, you can, if you've got, I would count that as poor quality education if you end up thinking the only way we can tackle climate change is individual action, you know, in terms of recycling. That would be bad climate education because that puts a lot of pressure on you as an individual, but it's also not fact based because recycling is not going to stop climate change. So it is getting that understanding, that awareness of some of the issues in the system and there are big issues and that's part of that high quality education. It's understanding is top down and bottom up and actually it's not working like it should at the moment and certainly in terms of addressing the climate crisis. And you only get that by a good systems understanding. So it comes back to that high quality education question. Thanks, thanks Dave. And Liam, Liam, did you want to comment on this point? Yeah, I think I really did a point of clarification as well when I've stated that individuals being responsible. That was based off of research when we consulted young people aged 14 to 25. And that was a piece of work mainly focused on the reduction of pollution levels. And one of the questions we asked was who has the responsibility for reducing waste and pollution levels. And young people ranked individuals as being the most responsible. However, they also ranked local authorities, the governments and manufacturers being responsible as well. So just a little bit of reassurance and just redefining that. More widely, from a climate justice perspective, we know that global climate emergency is obviously an issue of climate justice where those who contribute least to greenhouse gas emissions are most impacted. And young people told us through those consultations that countries most responsible for the greenhouse gas emissions must be there first through just the emissions as well. So a point of clarification. On the kind of more wider thing about education again, I think there's not much more I'm going to add to what the other three members have said. But I think the most important one that I'll always reiterate is about that co-design approach with young people, empowering young people to go down their own route on learning and designing the curriculum with them through the formal curriculum, or more informal curriculum, or the youth work and outdoor education, things like that. It wouldn't be a pile if it had to be plugged on, I think. We have to protect the right to youth work and making sure that youth work budget cuts are not cut any more than they should be because youth work does play a role by one of the most important roles. And not only developing on people, but letting them learn and develop on terms of climate change education. I strongly support that point, Liam, in that investing in youth work and investing in outdoor education are fantastic multipliers of human rights. We know from all of the evidence that there are really good places to invest money in terms of making sure that we can build up really good quality supported relationship based work that can go on to ensure that we have fantastic results. And maybe I'll stick with you, Liam, and just picking up on a question again from Mark Landon and adding in a little bit of my own. He's commented on the risk perhaps that we're focusing too much on a curriculum which is about developing a workforce for industry at the expense of critical thinking and emotional or political literacy and wellbeing. And that links to a question of my own around the role of children and young people as human rights defenders. And I wrote to the directors of education just last month in the context of protest recognising that the UN's recognised that acting as a human rights defender and protest has a really high educational value. And I'd be really interested in views on how protest and education mixed together and how outdoor education, things outside of the classroom, how important they are in terms of the balance within class learning as well. And how much of this needs to focus on things like critical thinking, which I know many of you have spoken about and kind of emotional and political literacy, wellbeing, understanding of the environment. So Liam, I'll maybe stick with you on this point, whether you've got any views around that. Well, we're going to start with education, Bruce, we'll be here all night, but I'll keep it brief. I think, well, especially when you mention yes is my response actually in general, I think in terms of the curriculum and maybe focus too much on curriculum and assessment at times. We need to start moving to more of an approach of allowing young people the opportunities and powering them the opportunities to not learn themselves, but to find out their own opportunities and things like that and allowing schools to be there to merely guide them to get through that themselves. So, yeah, I think I agree with Mark on that point when you reference especially the protests and things like that. Those are really important things to young people because these young people aren't just going to protest to get out of school. They clearly are really passionate about this issue, they're really hearts in it, and if they feel that impaled that they have to go out in the streets, they're clearly quite up about it and want to show their support for it. That is nothing that a school should not be saying that it's not your place to do that, because it absolutely is. It should be a school's place to say, yeah, get out there and do it because that's what it's all about. Show for what you believe in and things like that as well. I feel like I'm banging the same drum here, but if we get young people involved in designing their own curriculum again, that empowers young people to think it's not just about learning to pass an exam, we're here to genuinely learn how to reach those, again, those four capacities that Bruce has spoken about. Those young people will tell you exactly how they think they want to go about doing that, and then with a little bit of guidance from teachers, they'll all get to that, no bother at all. There's a lot we can do in the curriculum, and I'm not going to keep going because I will be here all night. It probably starts with getting young people meaningfully participating in that co-design in the curriculum with them and making them feel like the decisions are made with them and not just for them. Brilliant. Thanks Liam, and Wendy Pring in the chat is agreeing with you strongly there and pointing to the opportunity that we've got with the redesign of education systems in SQA, but that's only going to work if we've taken a different approach rather than focusing on the current metrics around passing exams. Some strong agreement with you in the chat there. Emily, do you want to comment on that point? You've mentioned already a bit about education, and I know with your role at COP26 and the work that you're doing that you're quite passionate about as well. It's really important, and I agree with everything that Liam has said. It's really important that we have as much opportunity as possible for children to engage, like I said earlier, in outdoor education but also in protests and things like that, anything that brings them out of the classroom and engages them with the real world. I believe strongly in the value and the benefits to connecting with nature. Doing things like the Duvenbury award is very beneficial for me. Engaging in any sort of beach cleans and bushcraft and all that sort of thing is so useful. It's very clear, always has been clear, that academic teaching and academic assessments are not for everybody, but there's so much more to education. If we focus too strongly in schools on getting people to sit exams, that very traditional style of teaching doesn't work and you're not helping everybody to realise their full potential. I think that we need to get people engaged in learning in loads of different ways until they have the opportunity themselves as a child or as a young person to find the method of learning that suits them. Brilliant, thanks Emily. Again, the human rights-based approach to education comes through so strongly in all of that. Dave, do you want to comment on that point? I've been looking at the chat as well. We could go on all night like you say on this, although it's Friday. One of the points about this potential dichotomy between what we need to see in terms of that systems thinking and sustainability being embedded in terms of education, that being high quality and a dichotomy between that. It's narrative of providing the workforce for a new industrial revolution. I think there is a danger there that that new industrial revolution, the net zero or green industrial revolution, that can't happen without our education being around in one, which gives that critical thinking kind of education, that systems thinking for our school leavers for our graduates. That will undermine what industry needs. That point needs to come through. We've talked quite a lot about educating our students. We've talked about training our teachers. There's an education job to do with policymakers still. We talked a little bit about the patchiness of policy around the world. There's patchiness within our countries as well at the local level. That is an area where we also have an important role to build their capacity to understand the importance of this. I'm going to not name the government, but this is related to Sapphire's question about COP26 and some of the schools being shut. Wouldn't that be ironic if that meant that the schools can engage with climate change because they're not in school? In discussions about green recovery with one government, we're talking about climate change and sustainability and what a crucial part that needs to play in terms of coming back after Covid, which hopefully we will. The pushback was that because children have missed so much education, we didn't have time to talk about sustainability or climate change. That would have to wait until, I don't know, five years, 10 years, whenever the pandemic's over. That kind of understanding, we need to somehow address that. I know those conversations are hard to have sometimes, speaking truth to power. Actually, our students, just like Liam was saying, probably they're doing it much better than we are, but we need to keep the pressure on there too, because they're a key enabler for this to happen, not just in a piecemeal way, but actually in a comprehensive and consistent way. That's so consistent with what I'm hearing as Children's Commissioner. One of the things that many of the children and young people I've spoken to are really angry about is that the global pandemic that we've been faced with has drawn so much attention away from the very pressing issues of the climate crisis that we're in. And all of the broader discussion we're having around sustainability, which was a key human rights concern prior to the pandemic and dropped off the radar in a big way because of the focus on public health. Children and young people who've already been leading the way as young human rights defenders on this are quite rightly really concerned and wanting to bring back that attention. And I think that that's something that's come through really consistently from many of the young climate activists and young human rights defenders I've spoken to. Pete, do you want to come in on this? I realise, and also Dave, thanks for picking up directly from the questions as well. I realise I'm probably failing in my role as chair and we're having a bit of a broad-ranging discussion rather than a Q&A, but I'd encourage the other panellists if you want to as well to pick out anything from the chat in your answers, otherwise I'll try and do it. But thanks for that, and I'll pass to you, Pete. Can I first say Dave's point about educating policymakers? I think some policymakers are quite keen to be educated, others not. Again, that's where truth to power really matters. You really do need to tell them, they need to know about this stuff. But there's another community that I think we really need to work very much harder at, and that is the world of the media, and they really do need education. Some of the media misinforms, and there's one academic who talks about the collapse of the information ecosystem, which to me really resonates with the way things are going with the media. And we do need all of us involved here and people who think like us to think about how we might work with these communities. That's a bit of an aside, though a hugely important one, in relation to what I'd like to say about young people and their protests and what goes with it really. The first thing for me is to ask the question, when does a young person become a citizen? We're fortunate in Scotland that we have got a vote for young people at the age of 16. To me, that's really grown up. All countries should be doing that. But does that mean that young people are not citizens before they're 16? Well, actually, I hear a lot more mature thinking from 14 and 15-year-olds than sometimes I do from people my own age. So I think we need to be quite careful about being respectful of the ages at which young people develop and their voice in society. Educating in the real world is profoundly important because we teach indoors because it's convenient. I often ask education policy makers when they say, why do you want kids to learn outdoors? I say to them, can you explain to me why they're indoors? Essentially, what it comes down to is that it's convenient. What kind of basis is that for education? The subjects that we all learn are beautiful. I get all duey-eyed about cosmology or bits of biochemistry or whatever it might be, art, prose, poetry and music. The systems are beautiful too, and we need to educate around those. Finally, the idea of protest as being an educational endeavour. Maybe that's where the classroom is now. The classroom is the protest. The classroom is wherever the young people are, not just when they're in school. To think about what they can learn from wherever they are and whomever they are with is the mark of truly engaging young people in recognising the beauty of being a lifelong learner, which is what we have to aspire to. That's picked up so well on some of the things that are coming through in the comments. Kirsten Liske was talking about this kind of education as a lifelong process and how we engage with people. That link to the media that you added in there is really important. A lot around how we can make sure that learning happens everywhere. In terms of children and young people being citizens or rights holders from a rights perspective, that's from birth. Very young children are already able to engage in an active way in lots of these discussions and fantastic work by the children's parliaments and primary schools all across the countries and in nurseries across the country. These discussions are happening. I think that there's a lot that we can learn there. The democratic deficit is an interesting thing in terms of that children in Scotland, young people in Scotland, don't have the vote until 16 and then not on all issues. The South African Constitutional Court has ruled on this point saying that those young people who don't have the right to vote on things actually have additional protections for their right to protest because of that democratic deficit. The real importance of seeing that children at any age need to be involved in the way in which we make decisions and if they can't access a participative decision making process which often they can't and there's an obligation on decision makers to do much more of that. Then protest is a very natural form and actually is a very important part of their education. We're getting towards the end of the session now but I'd like to come back to one point on where we are and where we're going. I'd like your reflections on do we think that the school population now is more educated on building a sustainable society than perhaps their parents or grandparents were because it's built into the curriculum? And what do we think it'll look like in the future in terms of tangible differences that we might observe in the generations to come because we've got an education system which is committed to global citizenship and sustainability? How far have we come so far and where are we headed? Who wants to kick this one off? Emily, shall I come to you? The answer is for me in short, yes, I think that people are much more in general much more engaged with sustainability now than they were say my parents generation. I think myself and my friends are thinking and talking more about climate change and climate justice and social justice a lot more I think than I hear from my parents that they were at my age. So I think we've been largely successful so far in integrating that sort of education both in schools and also to pick up on Kirsten's point also that education is a lifelong process and I think actually beyond school we've got a lot of people engaging in discussions about all of these sustainable development topics a lot more now than maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago. So yes, I think we're very successful. I think in terms of where we're headed I hope that we're going to continue on that trajectory. It's very important that we do. We are facing a twin crisis of climate and biodiversity, the climate and biodiversity crisis on both levels and it's really important that we teach that to everybody in schools but also everybody who is potentially older and maybe missed that education in schools also needs to be engaged in a positive way with these discussions. So yeah, we need to just keep talking, keep the conversation going and trying to reach everybody. Brilliant. Thanks, thanks, thanks Emily. Liam, what do you think? Yeah, I think as you expect broadly agree with Emily, I think certainly more aware of the climate crisis. I think as with all age groups that are sectors of all those that are all very switched on in climate aware. And then there's the kind of middle ground that know about it and then there's those that are trying to just not take an interest in it and I think that's replicated at all ages. And someone put a comment in the event chat thing I just picked up about kind of lifelong learning and how education is not just the first few years of your life. And I think that's really important part, how do we reach out and again it's in the same lines as what Emily was saying is reaching out to not only young people but all ages to make them more climate aware. I think on the question, yeah, I think we do. Young people do have a sound grasp of it. Our campaign that focused on climate change was one of the most engaged with campaigns that we've ever run. And that probably signifies how aware young people are about it. But as I've said, we can't just, we're very much just putting the, of course we put the gas on but that seems like a terrible pun. And we're kind of in a much running, running towards it and trying to get everyone more engaged and I think that's a really important part. But yeah, pretty much the same as Emily to be honest. Brilliant. Thanks Liam and Dave. Yeah, so my favorite recent example was the climate assembly. If you haven't looked at their report then look at it but that was 100 people drawn from right across Scotland who didn't have any kind of specific knowledge of climate change. We involved the children's parliament as well. They tended to know a lot more but by the end of that process, wow, I mean they were amazing in terms of the level of awareness across the 100 assembly members already in terms of our first sessions. By the end of it, their recommendations went way beyond, I think, what any of us has kind of evidence, given supporting evidence was expecting. And I think that model is one which somehow we need to replicate across the whole of Scotland because that gave an opportunity for that lifelong engagement with the evidence and that ability to reflect on what needs done through those contexts and the expertise of people from across Scotland in different communities in different sectors. And that's going to be a kind of a hard job because we can't do a climate assembly for everyone in Scotland at that level, you know, just in terms of centrally. But actually that kind of model, having that across all the regions of the Scotland, I know some communities are already doing it themselves and actually supporting that, that's how we can essentially deliver that quality education, that quality understanding, high quality understanding, that systems thinking in a way which isn't just about, you know, we should get it right in schools, absolutely, but a lifelong point is so important. And I think the assembly around, particularly around the climate crisis, that approach could be really powerful. Certainly it was a great process to be part of this past year. Brilliant, thanks so much, Dave. And Pete? Yeah, I tend to be an optimist with regard to where we are just now and where we might be. Certainly in Scotland I think we've got the basis of a lot of good stuff going on. As Dave said, it's expanding that to a grander scale, which is really important. How do we do that? And I think one of the ways that I think about this is in terms of what I would do for my friends and my family. You know, if I think about the world that I live in as being something that I have that intimate connection with, then I'm prepared to do a lot for it. And I'm not meaning at a fairly superficial level. I think understanding is one thing, but then the actions that we take, not just in terms of the small daily issues that we've been talking about, but those issues to do with representation, voting, all that kind of stuff, I think is really important. And I think we're at a good point to do that. I think the structures that we have within Scotland assist in that process, really. I think the other thing that is really important here is to recognise that there are benefits. We haven't talked quite enough about the positive benefits of doing these things, not just for ourselves and for future generations and for the world's biodiversity and its future. But actually in the here and now, the health and wellbeing benefits of spending time in nature, working with other people in a community of interest, and actually acting. And there's one person in this screen here that you can tell I work very closely with, Dave Ray, Kirsten's another person I work closely with. Amongst others, I do stuff for ideas and I do stuff for people. And the collection of those two things together brings me to a point that I'm willing and able to commit and I see the benefits of doing so. And I think we just need to work much harder at growing the capacity across communities to do that. I think that combination of optimism and inspiration and needing to do more is a great way to end because we are unfortunately out of time. So what a fantastic discussion that's been and I know these discussions will continue in other places as well. So thank you so much for all of you who have been engaging online. Thanks so much for all the active questioning. But I'd like to, if we're in person, I'd be asking everyone to join me in thanking all of our panellists. So please do that from your lounges or wherever you are. Please do show your appreciation to our amazing panellists. Thanks to the Scottish Futures Forum, the Scottish Parliament for working with me in my office and putting this together. And particularly our panel. So Emily, Liam, Dave and Pete, you've been absolutely incredible and I know you will have really inspired a lot of people to engage more with this issue and have more discussions. In particular, thanks to Bruce and Heather, our BSL interpreters. We really appreciate that support in making this much more accessible. And so thank you for your hard work this evening. And I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that later on today we've got more discussion as part of the Festival of Politics. The session on Scotland's marine life and the health of our seas is starting right now, entitled Should We Stop Eating Fish? And then over the weekend you can join a number of free online events, discussions on just transition, fast fashion, diversity in politics and a fantastic conversation with Professor Suzanne Simard, who's a world-renowned scientist whose revolutionary work on the subterranean world of trees is the subject of a Hollywood film. And so please get onto the website, enjoy engaging with those and please join me in once again thanking Pete, Dave, Liam and Emily for their fantastic contributions today. Please continue engaging with this conversation and have a good evening and have a good weekend all.