 Welcome back to the breakfast. A very interesting Tuesday morning we're having here. But we're moving on. Members of the Nigerian Bar Association joined judicial workers yesterday to protest against the non-implementation of financial autonomy for the judiciary. The judicial workers began an indefinite strike two weeks ago, but state governors had opposed the move for autonomy. But yesterday the chairman of the Nigerian Governors Forum, Kaya Defayemi, said they have finally agreed to implement autonomy for state legislature and judiciary from May. Joining us this morning is the National Publicity Secretary of the Nigerian Bar Association, Rappulunduka. Good morning. Thank you very much for joining us, Miss Aunduka. Good morning. Good morning. All right. There's been a very, very interesting two weeks. There's been conversations about who exactly is bearing the brunt of this strike. People who have court cases that are not able to of course get that going. And of course we announced earlier today that the Nigerian Governors Forum has promised May to implement the autonomy that has been sought here. So let's start with that. Do you trust that that will happen from the month of May? Do you believe in the Nigerian Governors Forum? When they say that they will go ahead and implement it from the month of May? I must confess that it's really difficult to believe that the promises that they've made will be kept. Now we must understand that this fight has been going on for some years now. There was a time that Jusong went to strike for more than three months, for a very long period of time. And they, at some point, they gave the impression that some states have said they're complying with the financial autonomy for the judiciary. And so the strike was called off. And here we are again discussing the same thing several years after. Now the truth of the matter is that anybody who knows the way the typical Nigerian politicians behave will find it very difficult to trust the Governors Forum. And as far as you can see, the average Nigerian will see that one of those gimmicks again to get them back to work and then renaissance on the promises that they've made. How many times can we actually hold our political office holders accountable for what they tell us and what they say that they will do? So I believe that the average Nigerian would not trust the Governors Forum until they see them start implementing those things. So if Jusong says they will not call up the strike until they see the implementation, I won't blame them because this is Nigeria and you don't trust our politicians. Okay, Mr. Undrika, Jusong began their strike April 6th, two weeks ago or so. And we saw the president of the NBA, Ulimitak Pata, you know, appealing to you know the workers to shelve the industrial action saying it was ill-timed. See now that the NBA is now, you know, running behind Jusong. So what makes the timing right? So why the support in the strike now? Now the truth of the matter is that we had the opinion or we have the opinion that because of this is just a few months after COVID lockdown, the end surge protests and the and the attendant lockdown, things have not really been normal in Nigeria. A lot of things are suffering, the cases are suffering. A lot of people are just picking up the pieces of their lives. A lot of lawyers who have litigation as their main state are not finding funding. And so the NBA felt that the timing is not true right because of the current economic situation that a lot of people have found themselves in. But then at some point, we also looked at it and we said, okay, number one, Jusong has already started the strike action. There can really be no better time again for Jusong to press, keep on pressing their demands. So NBA would felt that it is better for us to align ourselves mainly because we know that what Jusong is asking for or demanding for is the right thing. That is a constitutional provision. The courts have made each declaration over those sections of the constitution. And so whether we do it right now or we defer it for the next two years, the truth of the matter is that what people would actually suffer, cases would always suffer, but the bottom line is that I believe that if this is achieved, the level of the speed and a lot of good things that will happen to the judiciary, we can't imagine it for now. So I think that even though we said at the first time that it was ill time, well, we now are part of it. We are not saying it's wrong, but right now we are now deep-necked into it and we are fighting alongside Jusong to make sure that the right thing is gone. Okay, Rehsanjika, two questions for you. What's the stance of the NBA regarding the Jusong's call for an independent judiciary? One, and secondly, the NBA went to the National Assembly yesterday in a bulljatter protest. Security officials locked them out, denied them entry into the National Assembly complex. In understate, in Delta, in Lagos, members of the NBA also attempted to protest. But the fact that they were shot out, how do you interpret this move from the lawmakers and how do you foresee this going forward? Well, I will say that it's quite unfortunate that this happened. That lawyers who were not really protesting but came on a visit, that's what we call it. Because we're protesting, it was not violent and we all came there to press our demands, give them our statements and say this is what we want. It's quite unfortunate that they were locked out in a number of places. It tells you also the mindset of the typical politician, the mindset of the people who lead us in Nigeria. And it's quite sad that these things happen this way. But I believe that the bottom line is that NBA, I think that we may, we say that such a thing may happen. And so that's why we said we're not backing down. Doing this visit every single week until we get the governors doing the right thing. So we're not backing down. It's quite unfortunate this happened but we'll keep on pressing and we hope that our leaders understand what democracy is all about. It is about the people. It is about giving the people the right to speak and say their minds whenever they are wrong. So Mr. Utaka, you're not describing it as a protest. You're saying it's a visit. So what really is the stance of the NBA here? The stance of the NBA is simple. We are pressing it on the government or at the federal level, at the state level. Those who can speak to the governors to understand that the judiciary should have its financial autonomy because it is actually the middle of this test to know whether the judiciary is quite independent. There are three arms of government. And unfortunately, I must say that Nigeria seems as if the judiciary is the infant in this three arms of government. They are the ones that are not reconquering it. And this is wrong because if we have equal equality, that's actually what it means. If we are equal in the eyes of the law, they should be given the right to be used to us. Mr. Utaka, I want to know, do you think that over time there have been people in the judiciary that have been clogged in the wheel of this fight? They have basically sabotaged this effort for financial autonomy in the judiciary. Do you think that people in the NBA and of course in the judicial sector have made it difficult for this to be achieved over time? Well, I don't really. The truth of the matter is that whenever it comes to the body of lawyers, lawyers are entitled to different opinions. Most of the times you see lawyers always argued on different sides regardless of even in court for example, you always have a lawyer for the plaintiff and for the defendant. So most of the times we can disagree on certain issues. But the bottom line is that what is the majority saying? What is the association saying as a group? And that is what matters. Now, when you talk about the judiciary and if there are people sabotaging that, I can't really say whether there are people within the judiciary sabotaging that because one of the major hallmarks of the judiciary, our judges and people who own judicial offices, is that they don't really speak when it comes to issues. The reason I'm asking this is because over time we keep, you know, every now and then we see stories of governors buying SUVs for judges building court rooms in their states. You know, every other year we see things like this. Do you think that this has slowed down the conversation on financial autonomy? Well, I don't think so. The reason why I say that is this. At this stage, what we have on ground, they don't really have a notion. Somebody's appointed a judge, somebody's appointed, now the judges are even better off. When you talk about, for example, in a lot of states, in Anambra State for example, about 20, something magistrates we appointed about a year or two years ago and they don't have vehicles. Not they speak volumes about, you know, what the MBM is agitating for. Now, what that simply means is that a magistrate, for example, who decides people's cases, criminal matters, will after that decision get into a public transport with the same people that he presides over their matters. It speaks volumes. It's not right. Now, so the fact that, now, because we've accepted this state of affairs, that is why it is so. Now, definitely, that is why we are saying that the current state of affairs is wrong and should be changed. We are governed, we are the judiciary has to go cap and hand begging the the the executive for what is due there. But when they have their own financial autonomy, this state will be provided by the judiciary themselves and not the governors. Now, so I really disagree that it is a way of buying them over. It is what is due to them. The only true, the only sad aspect is that the governors now dispense these things at their own pleasure. I think they are doing them a favor, but they're not. All right. Now, the good thing is that give or take, I can't say they are definitely corrupt judges, but most of our judges are above them, are above board. And so, even if you give them the cast, I don't think it stops them from doing justice. All right. Well, you said most, not all, but thank you very much, Rappulunduka, for joining us this morning. Thank you. And we hope that we can have another conversation with this and I hope that there's good news actually before the month of May with regards to the strike. Thank you so much. Good morning to you. Thanks again. I hope so too. All right. All right, that's it here on the breakfast. I just talked about, you know, the juice and strike talking about independence of the judiciary. We had a Mr. Ishaq Al-Kintala from Murik, as well as a lawyer, you know, talking about the resignation or not, you know, that conversation regarding Ishaq Panthemi. Also spoke about the subpoena earlier on plus trending. And yes, that's what we'll call a wrap today on the breakfast. Do follow us on at plus TV Africa lifestyle. That's a new channel. You need to check that for all exclusives from plus TV Africa. I am Annetta Felix. Thank you for being a part of our day today. And of course, remember our social media handles. It's simply at plus TV Africa on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. And there's a new YouTube page also that you should also subscribe to. Also at plus TV Africa and join the family and be a part of, you know, the conversation that we have here. It's goodbye for now and see you tomorrow on the breakfast.