 So we really enjoyed having y'all here, and in 2011 we ended the event with a panel. So I think we actually had a lot of fun, had half a dozen of the speakers come up. We just asked some general Q&A, and this is also an opportunity for you all to ask the burning questions that you have. One of the things that is different this year from 2011 is we're going to give this one a little bit of a theme. And so I sat down and I looked at where we come, where the web, where current development design has come over the last 14 months. And one of the things that really stood out to me was devices, mobile, tablets, tablets, whatever you call them, that the world of devices and the ubiquity of HTML5, JavaScript or CSS has really become the big talking point about the open web business. And so I looked at it, and you can see it in our lineup. So I looked at our lineup, and I grabbed a few of the speakers that were talking about that subject. And I asked them to be here making themselves available. And so we have some mics in the back. We are encouraged to ask questions. And as we get started, I would like to ask our speakers to introduce yourself and say, what did you do, or what is this about mobile devices, mobile common devices that really gets you a nice person? Okay. Hi, I'm Mike Taylor. I work for Opera Software. And I do email support. If web pages don't work, shoot me an email. What is it about devices that gets me excited? I guess the most exciting thing for me as a developer, and it's a great time to let me build things, is with the web platform, if you know a handful of skills, there are infinite numbers of things to learn on the web. But if you know a handful of things, you can really build exciting applications that have a far reach. Like you can get onto mobile, you can get onto native, just with web tech, you can be anywhere. That's exciting for me. Hi, I'm Joe McCann. I work at Bizarre Voice here in town, mobile and platform architect there. And what I like about devices is not only how we can proliferate content across all of them, but I think it's really exciting is how we're going to have devices start to be self-aware and start to communicate with each other and how that actually plays in. I think we're going to see a lot more of that, so that's what I'm looking forward to. My name is Estelle Weil. I'm out of the San Francisco Bay Area, and I am a freelancer. And what I like about mobile devices is mobile browsers and the fact that almost no one has Windows devices. So, I mean, now there's Windows 10, but the reason I like that is because there's all this new stuff coming out, and when I teach new stuff about CSS3 and HTML5, usually the crowd doesn't know any of it because they're working for a company that has to support Windows machines, and I don't, when I'm doing mobile, I don't have to support Windows machines. So, I can really experiment with, I mean, there's so much cool stuff out there, and you can actually play with it and it'll work, and you don't have to worry about older browsers. My name is Burke, I think. I'm really drowsy. Nobody else is drowsy? I do not believe you. You know how you go laughing? That's how drowsy you are. My name is Burke Holland. I live in Nash Vegas, which is awesome. And I get excited about mobile because the web experience on mobile is nothing like it is on the desktop in that, you know, just the fact of you can touch things and move things around, and that's a completely immersive and different experience than the web, and the fact that we can take web technologies and use those on mobile devices to leverage that sort of user experience to me is just awesome. So, I'm Ryan Joy, and I work at Microsoft. I do have a Windows device. Anybody else? They have IT on them, and... What excites me about mobile is it isn't so much the actual devices, but more the concept of mobility and ubiquitous experiences across devices and across experiences. So, when Mike was talking about the opera TV stuff today, or if I'm using a tablet device or phone device where I go back to my laptop, or if I'm using it as a second screen in my lap while I'm interacting with another device over here, it's that merging of the worlds between these silo device experiences and, again, going ubiquitous with all of that, and you can't really do that without the web tech, and HTML5 is the obvious choice for that kind of cross-device experience. Awesome. My name is Chris Smith. I'm an author and conference organizer for Environments for Humans. I guess I'm excited about mobile in that the same way I was excited for the web when it first came out for the desktop browser, just to be able to, as a background as a designer, and so when the web came out, I was able to design things and have that design and that message just cross geographies and cultures and be spread out, and so with mobile, that's even more so. And then also what's really exciting is that there's going to be people in this world who will never ever have a desktop computer, but they will have a smart phone or mobile device, like an iPad, and they'll never ever have to have a keyboard or anything like that, so that kind of scares the living Jesus out of me, but it's also really cool that we're going to live in that type of world. Cool. So if anybody has a question, feel free to go up to either the mics. Go ahead and queue up. I'm going to start. My first question, so if you've got one, please step up, Travis, and you're right there, man, ask your question. You got it. I'll give you a minute, okay? So my first question is for Joe. So Joe, you did a talk today called What is Future Friendly? And I think that I want to hear your two-minute thesis on that one, because I think everybody should hear it. I think it was a great talk and I think it would be good to tell people what that was about and give us the sort of quick ending for us. So you want me to do a 30-minute talk in two minutes? Yeah, man. Okay, I got it. Well, and I'll say, too, that all the sessions today were recorded and will be online in a couple of weeks, so this can also just be a teaser to watch Joe's talk in a couple of weeks. Got it. I like it. Okay. In the beginning. Okay. So the concept of my talk of What is Future Friendly? Future Friendly itself is a loosely used buzzword, particularly in the web design community, around making your websites be future friendly. And that's accomplished through responsive web design for the most part. And what I was actually suggesting is that being future friendly with the web is one part of supporting mobile, but being truly future friendly is having a content strategy that will actually target N number of devices that are internet capable. So right now we have things like the desktop web, the mobile web, the tablet web, the phablet web, the TV web, but we also have things like native iPhone applications, tablet applications, smart TVs, even things like digital signage, where people, we typically as web developers and designers, wouldn't think to design or develop content that would be served up on a digital sign. The proliferation of digital signage, for example, is going up dramatically. So you'll see digital signs in places like airports, retail environments, et cetera. So from a content perspective, it's fantastic to focus particularly on web browsers as endpoints, but my suggestion is to not only think of it as the primary and only single endpoint, is that the web is ubiquitous across a number of devices, but your content should actually be able to live in a number of other places. And I mean, if you think about it just a few years ago, we didn't even really know what an iPad was. We didn't know what it looked like. We kind of thought there was a lot, plenty of rumors on TechCrunch about it, but we didn't know exactly what it was. And now every one of us is having to design and develop experiences for that. So what devices are they making right now, whether it's a Kickstarter project or behind the scenes at Apple? What are we going to have to be developing and designing for just in the next couple of years? And I think if you actually create a content strategy that's supportive of any of these types of internet-capable devices, you're setting yourself up for success. How'd I do? It's great, man. Thank you. Any questions? Hi. If we were to go back to 2007 and look at iOS sort of changed a whole lot of things and the rest of the industry came on board, and then fast forward another five, seven years, we're going to have another paradigm shift, another seven years. And so as we're building applications now, in your own perspective, where do you think those next paradigm shifts are? We just got touch. Touch is really coming in a meaningful way. What's next? This is for everybody, right? Whoever has an opinion. Okay, I'll take a stab at it. I think some of the next big thing type area in computing is going to be what I was mentioning earlier, our self-aware devices and how devices actually talk to each other. So for example, we're all in this room, most of us have smartphones in our pockets, but none of these smartphones know in the pocket. So how can devices actually end up communicating with each other in a self-aware fashion, in an efficient fashion that doesn't burn your battery down, that sort of thing, right? So that's my opinion. I like the concept of self-aware devices and how devices will be connecting to each other and what kind of experiences can we create around these types of connected devices, not just connected to, say, some central telecoms satellite? I'll settle for my phone and my iPad and my Surface and my laptop and my MacBook Pro and my other test device over here, not all going off at the same exact time with a meeting reminder when I'm sitting at my desk. And I have to click dismiss on six different devices or remove that service from them, right? That's just one of those things. Come on, guys, we have the technology. We can solve this. It's really frustrating. Although I guess it's a first-world tech problem because I don't think most people are sitting at their desk with those many devices. So one of the things I'm kind of still interested in, this is right now with the explosion of apps. We still have this very siloed approach with everything. We're starting to break out of that with contracts between apps and some ways to share data between apps, but it's still not quite there. So I'm really interested in when the device isn't just a repository for individual experiences for apps, but each one of those kind of together create this ecosystem that is your device, your phone, working together to present to you the contextual information that you would want when you need it. I don't know how that comes about, but I think there should be a natural evolution to that. So... Maybe the Google Visor. Anybody else have... Burke, you want to go on there? You know, I think that the next big shift is going to actually occur in the enterprise, and it's going to be that I think that the enterprise spends a lot of time, you know, living in several years behind where they're running Windows XP or they're running probably Windows 95 still. But a lot of these people have at home, they have iPads and they have, you know, these mobile devices that completely obliterate the stuff that they have at work that they spend eight, nine hours a day on or probably right at eight hours a day, probably not a second longer. But I think that the next big shift is going to be that the enterprise is going to embrace mobile devices. But I think that we're going to see kind of a decline of the generic... the kind of generic PC setup and the tower and the whole IT scenario and you're locked down, and you can't install this app or that app. And I think that whole landscape is going to change and we're going to see more mobile devices computing at work and then maybe the device becomes for work and it becomes personal as well, and there's not a separation between the two. All right. Was it on? Okay. What I think is... I think it's actually a question I think that you have still mentioned to Burke, right? It defined Facebook, which was there was lots of tricks and themes with like Translate Z mobile devices and Android 2 and Android 4 have different techniques that you have to apply. Do you guys know of any resources out there that kind of combines these ideas with the mobile or maybe even just beyond the question of tricks of keeping different versions of mobile devices knowing the tricks for different mobile devices but necessarily a better resource for being able to understand differences between different versions of devices and what's going on with that. We were talking earlier about a possible resource of all the quirks in all the browsers but the main tool that I use before actually implementing anything on a mobile device is I go to Can I Use. It lists everything, almost everything. I mean, there's a lot of features it doesn't list but most people are probably not hitting those features. I'm reading the spec and writing about them and no one's implementing them yet so it's not even on Can I Use and I'm like, I wish it was on there so I would know if any browser supports it quickly without having to bother with Google. Google comes after Can I Use. So that should be your main source to see you should look there and then use Modernizer in your actual browser. I don't actually use Modernizer, though I should probably because I'm only putting in one or two features and I prefer to use Vanilla JS so that I stay on top of things otherwise my dementia kicks in really fast. So Can I Use and then once you're using Can I Use on the bottom it says resources and it will say quirks, things like it'll give you three or four resources and then you can also hit the MDN page which is Microsoft Developer Network and there it won't, it doesn't give you as good of a display as to which browser support it but it does give you the quirks and it has basically said these are the three things wrong with it and that might not give you the final answer but at least you know what to look for because you know what the general quirk is but you don't know what the solution is then you know what to Google for. So Can I Use, MDN and then Google. So that's Mozilla Developer Network. Sorry, what did I say? You said Microsoft. What was I going to say? What about Opera? You just wanted to correct the still. I was just going to add to a still's answer. She had a great answer. Can I Use is awesome. The source is also on GitHub so if you run into these issues similar to the MDN there's a website called webplatform.org which is initiative by the W3C to kind of combine all these documentation efforts Mozilla has donated the MDN, Opera has donated Dev Opera content, Microsoft has donated MSDN content, Google HTML5 Rock stuff. So it's very much a work in progress and you can go there, you can contribute but hopefully soon that will be the place to look for stuff like this. And this, maybe not for the faint of heart but I find the best place to learn about quirks and bugs is reading through source code of libraries, right? Look at Sencha's stuff if you're interested in WebKit implementation quirks. Look at jQuery mobile or dojo stuff if you want to know like why is this not working. They'll have crazy workarounds and curse words and comments and stuff like that. There's a term that's coming up more and more often. It's called the Internet of Things which is basically the idea that everything is connected, your chair, your dog, everything. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this with respect to the fact that if I lose my mobile phone I've basically lost my identity. So as this becomes more and more progressively the case where you're identifying your device with the object what are we going to do when everything is connected and we have problems. So I think it's your identity and so much just like your ID and we lose our IDs and you know sucks for a while can't get into a bar I guess. But there's definitely certain problems that have to be addressed because if that is a single point of failure you'll need some sort of way to authenticate via a browser or via another friend's phone a lot of devices nowadays when you get a new phone you associate it with your previous account and all of a sudden it's like the old phone except with whatever new features or new hardware, right? So I don't know if that answers that question but we're definitely getting into Internet of Things there was a really cool commercial the other day about a guy playing starting his car heater and I was like what? Well I think it is really scary because part from a grad school one of my papers that I write was about like the future thinking of databases and how we're all like all information in a database and that's okay for me but then what if the government has a database and they input things wrong it's easy to get things into a database it's hard to get them to modify it to correct it and case in point a very important IRS or a payroll company inserted my age as being 88 and so all of a sudden I was getting retirement papers and I was like really wow it's crazy right so it took them a while to actually fix that and weeded out but then all of a sudden they sold my name and I also got subscribed subscription stuff for AARP to everything like that and these people have some great deals so I know for them so yeah so that's just like kind of the fun story right but the wrong story would be like if there's something really bad happens right if they somehow the database gets messed up information gets stolen or misappropriated or the government sells information that you didn't know about it is an issue and I feel like we as a society are dealing with that this is like our first step in dealing with this type of issue and you can see that as issues when we have to go deal with Congress about SOPA about some other issues too like that and I'm really really looking forward to the day when we hire congressmen and presidents who have been online for most of their lives and that's when things are going to be really awesome for everyone involved and there'll be cats everywhere Joe I love that we're passing this mic by the way so I probably have the complete opposite response to the gentleman at the end have I actually think I actually am all about it I don't think there's anything okay cool I think the bigger concern I have is the attachment of fear of something like this we're all going to have these connected devices and therefore it's scary but it's pretty scary today for a lot of things so for example if your credit score is inputted improperly that can really screw up your life it's not stopping anybody from getting a loan it's not stopping anybody from using their credit card we use paper for medical records right now massive amount of error in that sort of thing and then think about if you can start to optimize things like your energy usage in your home because all of these things are actually wired together I actually think if we get past the concept that there's something scary because all of these things are connected we'll actually start to see the true value and how it could actually start to really revolutionize not only developed economies but places that are struggling or that are developing I think there's a huge opportunity to leverage the power of connected devices through data to empower up and coming areas the other day but it brought up an interesting point that I didn't hear too much about until then about the low end of the mobile world and the tablet world whereas most of us we tend to have a fairly recent device a year or two old and we're happy to trade in and we like using new stuff but it was talking about the people who average teenager who just wants a smart phone so they can talk with their friends and they go to the store and they get the $0 device that's running Android 2.1 or 2.2 now it'll never be upgraded and the carrier is never going to support something new on it and previously with mobile devices we saw a pretty good uptake in new features because the devices themselves are being released and refreshed fairly quickly but now we've got this stock that's in the market and it remains to be seen whether people are actually going to be able to upgrade easily because of the kind of arms race between the phone carriers or if they're going to stick around perpetual and there's going to be a large chunk of people who have devices that just can't upgrade I'd just like to hear some of your opinions do you think that's going to be a problem that'll reduce the uptake or reduce the speed with which new features are adopted on mobile devices or do you think that won't actually be a problem so I think that's certainly reality today if you have the mindset that your universe exists such that everyone has an iPhone or everyone has an Android 4 device and you're developing applications and content specifically for those you're kind of I guess screwing over developing markets which is a nice way to put it for example I mean this is what the Firefox OS guys are trying to do they're trying to get a feature phone category experience or device with a smart phone experience rather they're launching in Brazil because feature phones are huge there opera kind of our bread and butter is opera mini certain markets like Nigeria for example it's like 90% market share of the internet and you can use feature phones that are Java running opera mini like those guys will never be able to upgrade or it'll take some time right whether or not that'll impede the ability to adopt certain features probably but you really have to kind of take everything in stride right look at the context of the work that you're doing developing web applications for X, Y and Z you know maybe you don't need to worry about feature phones but for general web content stuff I would argue yes I don't know if I actually answered your question but you nodded a few times I think it also I mean everyone here probably does websites or maybe you just like to go to conferences because you like to meet people who do websites I don't know but your website does different things some people are doing web applications some people are doing brochure websites and some people are doing stores let's say and like when I did a website back in 2005 I did a website for it was called pick a movie and you would order your pizza and a movie online and the only way to pay was PayPal and what I told the client was that's okay because if someone in 2005 is going to be ordering pizza and a movie online in 2005 they likely have a PayPal account so it's you know it depends what you're selling it depends what you're doing you do want to make all the information available to everyone but you don't have to there's certain things that no one is going to be doing on a feature phone so you don't need to think about you know like there's certain games like I don't know if you're going to play Angry Birds on a feature I don't usually I don't have never played Angry Birds but I can't imagine playing Angry Birds on a screen this big that you can't touch so it's kind of like what are you doing if you are providing information if you're trying to sell something and it doesn't work on feature phones then you're missing all of Africa so you know depends what you're doing but she's right I was going to say I think this is something we've been dealing with website web application development for years is that is there a business case to actually end up supporting these low end devices or I mean if you look at log data for all the types of devices that are say hitting your web servers or something and it turns out that 110th of 1% are running Android 2.2 or below it's a hard sell I would think someone to say oh we absolutely need to be supporting that right and I think particularly in developed areas like the United States we have a handful of Fortune 500 clients and when we talk to them about what are the devices that are actually hitting your guys' sights it's either 90% iOS or it's 80% Android depending on the person and in addition to that fortunately they're actually the levels of Android so I mean there's no real silver bullet I think at the end of the day you have to actually make a business case I think to still support it just like a lot of people still have to support IE6 because it's so big in China if that's a market that you have to hit then that's a thing you got to support right if people are using feature phones or Android 1.6 devices and that's a huge chunk of your users I guess you got to support them William do you have a question because we're talking about mobile devices how do you resolve and there are a lot of tensions between browser manufacturers and people who generate the recommendations from W3C and these sorts of things and we see all these things how do you resolve tensions between these groups and perhaps the carriers, Verizon and AT&T's of the world and do you see any reason why we should be concerned about their involvement and role in mobile development they're holding us back they are I mean they're limiting our bandwidth they're limiting the speed as to how fast we can download stuff they're limiting how much we can access a month they're making you pay $26 a month for like three gigs it's ridiculous we are so backwards when it comes to other countries in certain respects and in other respects we've made the rest of the world backwards compared to us because of the digital millennium act half of the world can't download movies because of legislation that is caused by Hollywood lobbying the United States government making treaties with other governments so they're part of the problem and if they're pretending to be part of the solution my thought is I've never worked with them but my thought is there's a lot of stuff that is in their best interest to make them a buck and I think all of us believe in open web standards and making everything as open as possible which is the antithesis whatever of them I had an opinion on that sorry good the only I think it's this is going to answer it kind of I guess there's no good answer yeah I mean it's tough to be very plainly like the reality is these are for profit corporations that have interest in providing profit to their shareholders that's what a corporation does but in addition to that I think that their interest and or meddling in the space is quite interesting because you look at something like SMS revenues they're going down dramatically year over year telephony minutes on your phone I don't speak on my phone hardly anymore right and there's the over the top messaging things like whatsapp and voxer and kick and these sorts of things so the mobile network operators are struggling at this point to find new revenue sources and it's in their best interest if they can to try to affect things in a way that will you know lighten the blow so to speak and meddling in working bodies or standards bodies or whatever it's probably not a bad move from them from a corporate perspective I think the delta is that you have to have organizations like mozilla that are willing to consistently disrupt the sort of the corporate machine if you will that's going to impact how web development standards and the open web actually persists you saw this happen with firefox launching as a browser you're seeing this sort of thing happen with firefox os in emerging markets where they're launching in brazil the mobile network operators down there aren't going to really have a choice and the open web is actually what ends up ruling the land on there in my opinion I had a slide in my presentation today that was a picture that I had taken of kroger and it was the end aisle where they were selling pay as you go phones and they were all android phones and one of them was an android 2.2 phone and it just blows my mind that you can even buy that today but obviously there's a lot of money and it's not just from the carriers but from the vendors as well for them to make these cheap phones for a few minutes so that they can turn a profit it really is about money and that makes sense that's how the economy works but at the same time there's kind of a mindset shift that we need to have culturally I think for us devices are very personal I have an iPhone so I'm better than you because you have an android phone or whatever whatever your thing is I don't think you can take an android phone into starbucks I don't think you can my point is in telling you this is that I think that devices will become more and more personal and they already are and people will not want to buy the pay as you go phone off the end of the rack because nobody wants to be a pay as you go phone and so everybody is going to have their device that is your device this is me we're moving that direction but we're not quite there yet and when we get there then the networks and the vendors will have lost a lot of the power that they have now and that's why we're calling junk I mean you can I think I haven't walked into a telephone store where they like an AT&T or Verizon shop in six years because I well you don't need to know what types of phone I buy but my assumption is that when you are in the store they are trying to market you certain phones and it's based on how much money and so my assumption is that they're not marketing the windows phone because windows own Skype and at some point they're going to put Skype on the phone and then no one is going to be paying for minutes anymore or even for SMS messages WebRTC Thank you I saw somebody taking a similar picture it's like Android 2.2 it's 2013 they're still selling these Android 2.2 must be the OS choice of drug dealers only burner phones have it but like you're saying so but anyways I have a 2.1 just so you know but it's boggling to me that if Android's free so why would you choose an outdated version of a thing that's free and I don't know I guess I posed that question to you guys what do you think it is that these burner phones the high margin phones that are not great hardware running the outdated OS is it because the hardware requirements for 4.0 higher that's perplexing to me the easiest answer to that question is cost is a major factor in purchasing a phone and free is a pretty awesome price secondarily to that most consumers will not go hmm this is running Android 2.2 therefore I don't want they're not going to do that they're going to say this is a smart phone and I can access the internet and it's free they don't they don't you know what I mean so I guess my question is like if you're the manufacturer is it that you already got your assembly line and kind of manufacturing process tooled to the phones that can only run 2.2 because of hardware requirements yeah it's yeah so there's there's cheaper hardware there's the licensing itself and then right there's inventory supply and demand so if you've got a ton of Android devices left over you may be able to cut a deal with cricket that says hey give these away for free and we'll only charge you guys X amount of dollars and that loosens right that loosens up our inventory correct there was there's actually phones are the basic phone is so cheap to make that there was actually a magazine that had an ad in the center full part of the magazine that had a phone inside and it was just the motherboard and only could dial one number but they actually did this whole video online where they took it apart and dialed a number off of it so that's how cheap a phone can be and it had a little battery just long enough so that they could post the message and I'm sorry I don't remember what it was but someone could probably Google it driver so any conversation about mobile and the future especially in the states should probably include spectrum discussions there's rumors that we're going to be running out of it at least what's regulated right now sometime in the next year do you guys have any thoughts about that and whether or not you actually think it's as big of a deal as some people are making it out to be and how is that going to affect us as developers I swear I'm not supposed to answer every question but you guys are like baiting me so I am not an expert in spectrum what I do know is that years ago Google I think already saw a lot of this coming so they bought a company called Grand Central which is also now known as Google Voice they bought a company called Gizmo 5 which does SIP based messaging which is effectively it's similar to VoIP but it's over a data network and then in addition to that you know Google's got the Google Fiber and Kansas City and I think they're open up in other markets so I think the shift to resolve that is actually figuring out the best way to manage data channels and data access and whether it's massive Wi-Fi networks whether it's just what we currently have for LTE and 4G ultimately if we can get off of the concept of spectrum for telephony and just shift directly to data I think that may potentially resolve that issue and you're starting to see Google try to actually go down that route and they were trying to lease spectrum from the FCC years ago and then pulled out of it for whatever reason potentially maybe too many political issues or whatever but they were actually trying to go that route and determined that it wasn't the route for them so in my opinion there's got to be something along just resolving it through data 100% and that's probably the best solution I have no opinion on the matter I had a question on who do you think is going to be the driving factor going forward on standards compliance right now we have HTML5 working group but they take four years to come out with something and then we see all these mobile devices hitting the market really fragmenting so there's not really a market driver anymore I'm seeing not even my website has less than 75% Microsoft hitting it and out of that remaining 25% it is very fragmented, it is all over the map and I can only see it going more and more to that so there won't be this market driver saying this is the way it's going to be and then the standards bodies take forever to get around to it and I really don't want to support 20 different browser prefixes because now my mobile device has four different browsers or five different browsers and everything else what was the question who's going to be driving standards and making them happen you guys are seriously SaaS and Compass was developed and now they're putting variables and mix ins and calculations in CSS so it's tools like prefix free and Compass all your prefixes can be put in on the fly automatically so you don't have to worry about making sure all these prefixes are in there and it will be delivered to the browser that you want to be as for people who are driving the browsers right now Google is just driving it home a little fast Firefox is doing a great job and the browser is doing a great job a lot more than they were in the five, seven years ago they're really pushing hard to put these browsers out there and we have to there's still going to be some fragmentation that's the response of web design that's like you have to make sure your website is flexible enough to meet these ever changing devices as they come out to it and that's just the challenge and the coolness of being a web mobile designer basically prefix free is handling the problem that we have now but there are channels on IRC and there are the Chrome developers and the Missile developers and the opera less of the opera developers but opera has a system of hearing not necessarily through the developers but through their web openers and they listen to us and they're also developers so they have the same issues as we do and they're very responsive if you we were at a talk at CSS DevConf in Hawaii because Chris is awesome and he organized it and there was someone who did a presentation on animation and she had an issue and Tab Atkins was sitting in the audience so let's put that into the spec right there Tab Atkins is on the WC3 in the CSS working group and he works at Chrome for Chrome at Google so that is the type of communication that's actually happening when I had an issue the other day I was going to ask David Barron who is the developer at Missile and he's right there in the chat room and you can ask him and I realized I didn't make it prefixed and I had to change the prefix to Mons before asking him so I didn't actually ask him yesterday but I'm planning on asking him my question tomorrow after I change my prefixes I guess what I'm hearing who's going to drive what was the word? Progress? Standards it's really everyone so if you look at all the various different browsers that maybe when you hear developers they talk about fragmentation and they talk about pain I get that and it's painful and I developed for a living as well but if you kind of take a step back and look what the result is of that ultimately it pushes the web platform forward for example Apple came out with touch events on their iPhones and other browsers back ported that and they're terrified of patents and Microsoft says let's have a better model let's do pointer events and we'll be able to unify different devices and touch I think that's a really good idea and I think other browsers will pick that up so instead of just taking say okay iPhones are great let's just do whatever Apple wants you have another company saying let's try another idea and unfortunately the standardization process it takes time to go back and forth and you have to kind of think through ideas and argue and you have to have implementations and it sucks as a developer but you get paid to suffer so there's worse problems to have and ultimately technology progresses this way Web standards is really the answer you have fragmentation but as long as you're if you're dedicated to sticking to the standard the major browsers will eventually get there to some degree right there's always bugs and it always sucks that was also pretty much exactly what I was going to say developing is hard I don't think it's ever going to get easy again there was a short time when nobody had feature phones, nobody had smart phones and everyone had IE6 right that's never going to happen again but there is a lot of interoperability there's a lot of working together I think so specifically with the pointer events Microsoft said hey we're going to do this roll up pointer event that was submitted to the W3C as a draft spec and then they developed a patch for WebKit and submitted that said hey here's the implementation in WebKit as well so I don't know if that would have ever happened back in the day the standard process is still contentious it takes time but there is it forward even though they're bickering all the way and there's going to be other stuff that's going to continue to come out of individual device manufacturers and things like that that have to work their way back in the standard process I don't think that gets any easier but fortunately these are like 10, 14 year processes so alright we're going to have time for one more question so Ray go ahead what are some of the new web dev tools features that help alleviate some of this difficulty of development okay so one thing that comes to alleviate this pain right I mean right now you have some really good developer tools out there like I think all browsers have decent developer tools I have favorites but you see kind of a lot of cross pollination right this week someone figured out how to hook up the chrome dev tools to Firefox OS devices right because they don't have decent remote debugging that's crazy but people are saying okay let's just speak that protocol and let's implement our devices so that type of thing I think is possible another tool that came out this week which I think is really cool is this was it modern.ie right so Microsoft says we really want you to support our browsers so we're going to make it really easy put in a URL and it's going to go scan and say you left out this prefix or hey we've got these windows 8 tiles if you're into that you can add this meta image thing that kind of stuff is super helpful instead of kind of just complaining and shaming it's saying here's a tool here's some suggestions yeah shaming is fun right like I get paid to complain on twitter and stuff like that but it's nice to be helpful as well I'll say that one of the things that's definitely going to help is pushing the phone manufacturers so whomever is flashing the OS on there to make sure that the latest browser is actually on there so that the what even if you have to remote test and you still need to view what the site looks like you know that the code you're writing is targeted toward a rendering engine that's going to behave predictably as predictable as it would in the desktop version right so and that may be so with android whomever they've moved to chrome as their default browser that was huge right so you don't have millions of people who don't even know that they can install chrome using the default android browser I don't remember what the default android browser was called android browser which was terrible which was just terrible browser so the fact that a good browser was included as default was big the fact that with the latest windows phones that IE 10 is included is a big thing right because it's like a capable browser so I think that will be big and that kind of makes it a little easier doesn't doesn't it doesn't solve the tooling issue but it makes the predictability a little bit easier I'm a designer friend and guy so what I'm about to say probably is foreign to me a little bit but I just picked up Divya's HTML5 boilerplate book and she goes into saying there's so much stuff in boilerplate it's amazing but part of the stuff that's in there that as a friend and person I don't really know about but it's all these hooks that you can actually automate the testing process when you have your site built and you have your command line tools to actually say okay I'm done let's deploy this site and actually I'll actually go through a whole bunch of series of JS checks and stuff like that in CSS checks and all that so I think that's that kind of automation if you have a good developer on your team or you want to do a lot of stuff it will help speed things up a lot and also in terms of I just wrapped up designing web mobile graphics and I spent a lot more time getting familiar with Illustrator and Photoshop and stuff like that there's just a really great things that they put into these tools that we've had forever to really speed up making web graphics I mean just making SVG graphics and having them actually show up in browser and not a big question mark icon was totally amazing to me but impressed easily but it's it's kind of tools are there we just have to you know like you're asking for where they are so but yeah and in virtualized tools are available they're not perfect but you know there are a lot of images out there that you can run so it's not complete black box I think the browser developer tools are pretty like friggin amazing at this point I remember when I think Firebug was the first tool that I actually used where I could actually see what was going on in the background I was like oh my gosh this is I can actually like build something this is great and now I've gotten to the point where like we have like source maps and things like that and we can take other languages and debug them at run time and we can you know profile and look at memory I mean we have tools for the web that I don't think a lot of like you know native developers have and so there's one place where we haven't really kind of cracked that nut all the way is mobile that's still kind of a black box and it can be very difficult but I think so there's Adobe's got Edge Inspect Estelle was telling me I'll let her tell about the some black ray stuff but there's I think we're going to see more tooling in that area where we can have the same like debug experience on mobile that we have on the desktop browser and that's really going to change things so the mobile devices you there's basically debugger for most of them there's a winery just as a general generic one but the blackberry 10 debugger is awesome I mean it really is an awesome browser and has an awesome debugger and this is coming from someone who tweeted when I went to the blackberry conference I said whoever said that no one has a blackberry is wrong at least 20% of the people here do but it's actually it's actually kick-ass browser and great debugger there's Edge Inspect there's also the Chrome mobile if you're tethered you can debug and then there's another thing which is everyone here has the Chrome debugger Chrome on their desktop right on the laptop they're all asleep I saw one hand okay good I showed it in my talk today but there's I mean it's just so much deeper than that so there is a talk online that you should all watch it's called like Secrets of Chrome or something and it goes into the debugger because one thing we haven't talked about here on mobile we've talked a lot about like what the capacity is we haven't talked about what the limitations are except for in terms of like you know what can't we code one of the big limitations is memory on your device the iPhone my first iPhone was 128 megs of RAM you know I'm developing on an 8G computer for 128 megs of RAM as developers it is our job to manage memory for the user because it's 128 megs of RAM but that's running the OS plus all the apps that are open plus the browser then your web app inside of that so open up develop in Chrome there might be other browser inspector debuggers that have this but it actually shows how much memory that one tab is using and what is using that and it also has like a CSS you can see how long it's taking for the browser to parse your selectors figure out what selectors you are taking forever it's only 1.3 seconds I mean milliseconds which isn't a lot of time but when you account all these things that we're throwing into these because we're basically developing these kick ass applications we can for a browser that has these awesome devices that have awesome browsers but no memory and no battery life so be aware of that and use the tools and tools are definitely out there they're right there in your browser so I like to talk about two things really quickly that are slightly higher level than a drill down actual specific type of tool so Netflix is a company that's done a phenomenal job with scaling their platform across loads of devices and they do run an HTML5 stack for all that which is really impressive as well and they have a really good blog post you can find it on their engineering blog about there's 3700 plus android devices and God knows how many different flavors of android and different ROMs etc and I realize that it just simply doesn't scale to try to get every single one of these devices so what they've done is they take something like android and they bucket them into specific categories and they have sort of these baseline smoke tests that they run against those and if those pass then they have a reasonable level of confidence that across all the devices in said category will actually work so that sort of leads me to my second point is the number of devices that we have to test against or we should be responsibly tested against is huge and in addition to that particularly to the question earlier about older devices older versions of android etc there's actually I think a movement taking place I want to say it's in Oakland or San Francisco where it's a community device I don't know like I don't know what they call it but you can go to this lab effectively and donate your devices your old devices and test stuff against all of these devices I think it's in Oakland I'd love to see that sort of stuff happen in Austin and particularly in places like in emerging markets and whatnot where they can actually where they may not even have access to a number of devices they can actually have them in a community aspect so that they can actually see and test against those so. On that I think that's a great way to wrap up so thank you all thank the panelists again really appreciate it thank you all