 And we are live. Welcome to the faith of the fallen discussion. That's an A and I have, well you messaged me like two quick things. But we haven't really talked about it at all. So hello everybody. Howdy. Hello. Hopefully this evening will be a good distraction for everybody. But we all need it. Exactly. Although it, I mean we'll get into it obviously, but like given the nature of these books and the nature of people's problems with these books, the nature of Terry Goodkind's writing like maybe not necessarily today's events, but just like world stuff is relevant and is like a part of how we encounter these books. True. Budapest. Wow. Okay. Hello there. I mean if I was in Budapest, I would not be watching me. I think there's better things to do in Budapest, but I'm glad that you're here. Can't miss faith of the fallen, Liana. Come on. I mean, yeah. That thumbnail is pretty unmissable. Indeed. Thank you. I don't get to show it off very often because, you know, I try to keep it, you know, not NSFW on the channel, but you got it flaunted. Every so often, you know. All right. Do you know what I rated it this time? I know what you rated it. I saw it when I went to go rate it. I don't because you had not rated it when I did. Yeah, I finished it yesterday. Right on time. I actually thought I might be finishing it today, but I managed to finish last night. Nice. I gave it a three. Okay. And this was my favorite before. I think I gave it a four. I think or you said 4.5 in your text of it. I think, listen. I'm not attacking. You're like, listen, I can defend this position. I did not intend that to come across that way. It's been a day. You know, if I really thought you meant it that way, I wouldn't have said anything. I did not mean it that way. No, I mean, I think trying to decide how to rate this was tricky because like, I really enjoy this book. I feel like this will be very confusing for you. The vibes will be, will be special. I really enjoyed this book because I think in some ways this has a lot of the things I love about the series and love about good kind. I saw that in your review, but it was a good kind done is best. Yes. Yeah, like certain elements of it. I pay attention to the things you say. You're listening. It's great. But at the same time, like from a real world perspective, I like deeply disagree with the premise of a lot of what he like of like some of what he's trying to say in this book. And it's so obvious that this book is like intended to be very like anti communism anti socialist. Yeah. I think those are also two things that do get conflated a lot. And this is more specifically anti communist than it is anti socialist, which is like when you said you deeply disagree with its premise like I mean, that is one thing I think we can agree with communism doesn't work for some of the very reasons that he states like where he goes with it and the other like conclusions that he intends you to draw further than communism is where we are opinions would diverge but at its core like yes these are the problems of fraud strokes like that's why it doesn't work. Yeah. I mean, I think the problem with this is that this is also like until that's how you really feel like I think the problem though is that like his premise is also very like rah rah capitalism and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and like I think that like yeah, and not like, like acting as if privilege is just an absurd thing, you know, because I think streams. I think that so communism and capitalism, if we view them each in the vacuum of like political theory, you know where it's just like, you know, in a vacuum the concept of like what these represent and what type of structure, they aim to achieve neither can be evil, you know, they're just like here's how we think we should structure stuff so if you examine them both that way. They both seem like pretty. There's there's good reasons for the systems being designed that the way that they are like in theory, it's when like rubber hits the road and you factor in humanity as the big old variable that affects this and your system isn't counting for how humans are going to respond to the system, both systems fall apart. Because like, in theory, the way that he envisions the fairy tale of capitalism, it sounds just as good as the fairy tale of communism. Right. And that's the problem like it's a fairy tale and neither system, like actually lives up when you like actually enact it and humans respond to it. Right. Well, yeah, because because the reality is that like, I don't know, I just anyway, so I think that's that was that was what was like tricky for me with this book is that yeah, he's not one for subtlety. It's true is that like, I really enjoyed the characters and the pacing and like elements of the plot like we're fun like there was a lot about this that was really fun and enjoyable to read. But I also just like, I think some of what he's like presenting as the way things are or should be is like a little absurd and naive. So I don't know. Yeah, well, it's again, and because he this story shows you like, okay, so we've enacted, you know, he doesn't call it communism, but we enacted communism. Right. Here we're seeing all the ways that that doesn't work. Only people talking about how much better capitalism would be. Well, the same the reverse is true if you're in a capitalist system, people could say, Oh, if only we had communism and that sounds so much better. And what we've got going on right now, it's just that like, he doesn't actually have to show it functioning, because it's all talk, it's all about how if only we have the freedom to do XYZ. And you're like, Okay, but you actually aren't showing me a functioning system with capitalism. You're showing us Richard, making his own little mini capital. Well, it's not again, it's not dissimilar from this. I guess people talk about it more when it comes to like legal debates, you know, but this comes up in general, I mean, even interpersonally, in an argument, let's say, let's make it not political. Let's say, you know, husband and wife arguing about the like best way to organize their itinerary for the vacation. And the wife's like, here's the plan that I have. And husband's like, that's a terrible plan. And you're like, do you have a better one? No, I don't. But that's a terrible plan. So like, that's kind of what we have going on here, where it's like, while it's in just like, this is just terrible. And you're like, but what is your solution? Like, how, how is it going to be better? What is your idea for how to improve it? I mean, I mean, well, I mean, like I would say, what I took away from his solution is like, let people run their businesses, let the market self-regulate. Well, his solution seems to be good. Well, his solution seems to be, I don't like your itinerary, anything but that. So if your system says this is controlled, okay, then my version is we don't control it. I don't actually like, I haven't proposed to do an actual structured system and actually showed you how that's going to function at every level. I'm just saying what you're doing right now. No, it's bad. And we should do whatever the opposite of that is. You know, it's like not actually being like, here's an alternative itinerary. No, it's just not that. Well, it's more of the like, why don't we just like, go and see where it takes us kind of thing, which it like there is a theory of that of like market self-regulation in capitalism that doesn't actually work in practice. His name is Richard. Six is what we really realized. His name is Richard and it's staying Richard. So I think before when I've talked about these books, and you know, how I never noticed, and I mean I think nowadays, even if no one had told me I would notice it. I just wasn't to that aware of stuff and wasn't looking for it. At the same time, again, like a lot of fantasy has, you know, a chosen one, I've said before is rugged individualism at its most magical, because a chosen one saying only I can do it, and I alone have the power, like, yes, you alone, you actually yes, you have a magic sword, you are prophesied and ordained to be the chosen one to bring balance to the force, etc. Yes. But like, in reality, like if you're telling me that everyone is a chosen one in their own life, like, that's not actually how that works. Because do you see how your character is the chosen one because of magic? That's not a thing we have. So like, I never noticed that stuff in these books because I'm like, well, yeah, Richard is, they keep saying Richard, you're a rare person. And I'm like, your system can't be based. Like if you're proposing to me the capitalism, which is let's be real, that's what he's proposing, or at least more free market, maybe not necessarily capitalism, but Free market, yeah. And you're showing me that the only person who succeeds at this is the rare person, which you have called him a rare person, and it takes him to do it. That means the system's not good. Yeah. Yeah. And it just sort of like, I don't know, also, also, also, okay, I just, I was like, thought it was kind of ridiculous and hilarious, the ending of the book, and how like this piece of art has opened the eyes of all the people. I didn't think of this until literally like five minutes before we went live. How much the like imagery, particularly on the cover, but you know, it's in the story as well as why it's on the cover of these huge statues. How much that looks like Atlas shrugged. Which is probably intentional, I guess. I've never read Atlas shrugged. So like, You can see in the cover of Atlas shrugged. Yeah. With Atlas looking all atlassy. Right. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know. It's a, I just, I just thought it was kind of funny because I was like, oh, okay, yeah, like, people see the statue you carved and are like, the nobility, this is what the world is supposed to be like. I'm like, okay, sure. Which like, I was able to buy it again specifically for this book, because we've established that he carves with the gift and that even little things that he carves are like mind bogglingly life alteringly religious experiences just to have a knickknack. So that if he takes that skill. Go from with him with because of magic. Yes, it works. Right. So if you're telling me just carving a statue and this was, you know, like a low magic, almost non magic fantasy, I'd be like, yes. But you've already told me a time and again how him like whittling a little figure is everyone's like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. So. Oh man. Yeah, so I don't know. It was one of these things where I was like, the Atlas shrugged as strong as this one. It was, you know, it was one of those things where I was like, oh my gosh, this is like kind of ridiculous but at the same time I am like loving Kaylin being badass Kaylin I'm loving, you know, Richard just being his like happy self like let's make the best of a bad situation and make everybody around him better. Just in like that I really enjoy. You read this book as trying for the same thing as Atlas shrugged but so much better. I mean it helps that it's magic. A lot of this is like, well magic. And then we have another example of extremely clever naming where we call the the pickled fat Lardo. Such a clever name for that food. And then there was a paragraph like towards the very, very, very end of the book when Kaylin is expressing enthusiasm over it. And they say Lardo instead of, you know, another word like it, or that, or some they say Lardo Lardo Lardo Lardo like 10 times and I'm like, please stop. Oh my gosh. Possibly maybe yeah. The Lardo also was the thing that I was saying last time that I was like that's what I remember a faith of the fallen is them living together and him eating Lardo Lardo and carving statues. That was pretty much what I remember the book. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were trying to convince you. Yeah, I don't know but it like at the same time, this is fun like it's among the better books in the series. You know, and what I'm learning is my favorite is stone of tears. Also, I mean, it's really good. But yeah, I mean, I don't know if we want to talk about like the like linearly the plot because we just kind of dove in at random. But I also have a lot of thoughts about why this was my favorite before and why it isn't anymore. Okay. What was did we do we want to do that or like doing because I was like if we want to we can't we'll get there if we just go linearly but I don't know if there's like, I don't know. I mean, I did. Okay, we're doing spoilers right. Everyone, if you didn't know we're doing spoilers. We just got a set that he's talking about building statues so we didn't really say anything. But I did forget. And I forgot so hard that I'm like, is this even real because like, I don't remember this happening at all that Warren dies. I, yes. I was like, is he back again another book because like, he also dies off screen. So I was like, is he dead? Or is he just pretending to die for prophecy reasons? I was wondering that too. Which is because like, they just Kailin leaves him and is like he's dying. And then they never have a funeral for him. And you never see the body. And you know, and you know, those people are like, can't locate like low key, they like they fake deaths before. Yes. And like, also, I just was like Zed not being able to heal him. I was like, I'm sorry, why is this the limit? We've seen you heal. Somebody people are saying he actually did die. I'm okay. I mean, I wasn't saying that I was for sure he didn't. But I was like, I don't remember that. And maybe that's why I don't remember it happening is because I probably when I first read Faith of the Fall and thought exactly this that it was like, yes, he did. And so that in my brain, I was just like, well, pending. I haven't written him off yet. Which is like, kind of messed up. They get married and then he dies almost immediately. That's it as soon as they get married and it's so perfect. And they have their perfect night. He was like, he's going to kill one of them. Like, come on, just let them be happy. Oh my God. No one but Kailin and Richard can can be together. Yeah. Nikki is fun. I like like, I really like fun is the word we want to use for her from the majority of things. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I think she's kind of a fun antagonist. But she herself is like, anti fun. Yeah. But I like her. I think she's just interesting. She's kind of like, she's like, so nihilistic. She's like, yeah, sure. Torture me. I don't care. You're going to kill me. Good. Kill me. It's like Glokta. I guess. A little bit. Except like, she's not Glokta would be so mad at her if he found out she was being like this. He'd be like, you have, you are in a fully functioning body in zero pain. Yes. What are you doing? Trainsies. You can have mine. Yeah. Well, and also she's been brainwashed by like cultish ideas. So there's that too. But uh, yeah. I think she's an interesting character. Yeah, she is. Maya. Yeah, I like. So I mean, this is why actually, I think this book really, really like I read it at the right time for me when I first read it, because I was very much in not to the degree that she is, of course, maybe I shouldn't say of course, but not to the degree that she is, but in the mindset of like your own life is worthless and living it for yourself is, there is no point to that. And if there is any meaning to be had in life, it's living it for something or someone. And if you don't have a calling or a cause or something to do with your life to make it meaningful, simply living is not meaning unto itself is like where I was. And so reading Faith of the Fallen and how strongly the book is like, no, live your life for yourself, it's yours to live was the exact thing that I needed to hear. I can say that. And reading it now that I'm not in that headspace anymore. I'm like, okay, my capitalism has its problems. Fair. Um. There's a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a communism cult. It's like if communism was a cult. Well, um, no, because it's not just communism. It's also like heavily leaning into that sort of like old very old school Christianity of like, you know, all the paintings of like the sinful man, and how you're worthless and it's only God's grace that is like the bad side of it of like, of, yeah, of like, you like the, yeah, you must buy indulgences to save your unworthy soul. Right. That is true. That's true. So he's like, it's taking communism and the absolute worst and most oppressive forms of like Catholicism and Christianity. And then what if, because it's kind of weird that it is that way because communism was pretty anti religious. Like you, the religion was communism. So it's kind of strange to see this blending of the two true. It was like two of the most oppressive things, like what if they had a baby baby a cult baby in a magical being under oppressive religion is awful being under the oppressive yoke of communism is awful. What if we had both perfect bring in the chosen one to save us all. Yes. Oh man. Thank you. Yeah, her mama was really into it, which I feel like I don't actually want you know that book I don't want to know but it did make me wonder like what made her mother that way and what made the father marry her in the first place. Yeah. Because like that much like you know you can say oh well he keeps that way because she was made to be that way well the people that made her be that way we're made to be that way you know like you can keep going who's ultimately to blame. Right. I mean it's possible she sort of like got more into it as she got older or something I guess like her mom maybe who knows. Yeah. But her mom radicalized, I think. Yeah, her mom's and then the was it father narrow said, I don't remember. Well, the head of the head of the church of the order or whatever. He kind of reminded me a teensy tiny bit and the dynamic between them of. What's his name, Constantine in the winter night trilogy. Yeah, I can see that. I love how Maya is now interested. I mean we should tell Maya about Temple of the Winds then she'll be really interested. Listen, you know what I did appreciate with Faith of the Fallen they do so much like recapping I feel like you could read this almost as a standard. He does that in all the books and I've seen so many people who read them back to back get really angry about that. Okay, but if you're reading them as they come out. And there's a lot of series I wish did that because I don't want to have to reread all the books every single time unless it's first law in which case I will have to do that. I don't want to have to reread all the books every time a new one comes out. Yeah. Yeah, no it's like it's I think it's useful and it gives you kind of like basic information to understand the world you're getting into so you could just read it. It was sad to read about Nicky's father. Yeah. He was beaten down. Yeah, it was sad. I just I think what I enjoyed is it was very it was like Richard and Kalen being their most Richard and Kalen selves you know what I mean. Although, I have to say I'm getting a little tired of the fact that if if Kalen is not with Richard like if they're not on the same quest. The only thing he can think to do with her is to be like, lead an army to some more. That's all that she does, which is not with Richard. Like can she have a very good strategist you know I know what it's just like okay we've seen Richard with a sister while Kalen's at war before I think it's called stone of tears. If it's if it ain't broke. I would just like to see Kalen do something something different. Yeah. That's fair. But yeah, I would say so far. I think stone of tears is also still my favorite but this is like among the better ones like I enjoyed it as a sort of some of it is as all of it is as all of it is I like it was one that I had fun reading. Yeah I mean it's you know if we're going with the skipping theory like every other book is like an engaging read. So it was definitely a much more engaging read than Soul of the Fire or Blood of the Fold. Yeah I did not like so I did not like the last one. I'm telling you though the books are always better when Kalen and Richard are apart. Yeah. Well I and I think part of the problem is like I don't know that he knows how to let Kalen be her like badass self when Richard is with her. Yeah. Which is interesting. I mean for the books that they're apart they'll come together for some badassery because like she's well she badassly nearly killed him. Like you know she comes in guns blazing and in stone of tears she was kind of badass at the end of stuff tears so where they were together. Yeah Priscilla I agree Soul of the Fire was the worst. It's my least favorite so far. It's just the most it's the most forgettable. I mean I made me I did I like actively I actively just liked it but I just I was like why does this exist. Couldn't we have had like a couple chapters in a different book to be like so the chimes are a thing just so we know they're a thing. Do we need this but yeah like it's that book that primes Richard to be like I've lost faith in humanity and for Kalen to be super feet. I also I didn't remember and I was like I mean I didn't remember that Nikki takes him and it's like you know it's forced for some reason. I couldn't remember why like originally she was like I need to do this and I couldn't remember how she got him to agree to it. So I was like oh yes this is coming back to me now. Everyone seems to hate Naked Empire so that's well Naked Empire is the one where I stopped I've never read past Naked Empire. Yeah I don't I definitely have not I have read this one before like this is I think you've written I don't know if you've read Naked Empire but you've read Pillars of Creation. I think so I may have read Naked Empire I just like don't remember. Naked Empire is the one where he stops being a vegetarian. Well he's not really a vegetarian in this book either. This is when they explained that like because he's not killing. But in Naked Empire it's like oh no there's just like at no point do you need to be a vegetarian anymore. Whether you're killing or not. I was like cool. Love the consistency. Wow Maya added the first book to her tibia okay. That's fun. It doesn't mean what you think it means. I'm guessing that I like chain fire better. I just never got to it because Naked Empire wore me out. I was like I'll read on someday and then I did it. And now is someday. She's the only one to figure it out on her own about Richard Spahn and it's hard to be controlled by Jane. And it is also interesting how that's a thing that I like about the magic systems in these books where they're all subjective. Where like this magic of the sword isn't that it knows right from wrong. It's that it works based on what the wielder believes is right and wrong. Right. And the way that the bond to Richard there's no like objective definition for what being loyal to him means. But if you feel that you are loyal to him whatever that means for you then it works. And so. Right. Which is interesting. That's that happened earlier when the sisters were like we'll swear an oath to you. And we're going to peace out. And that's how we're serving you by not being around. So it should work. Yeah, that's true. But I also I unlike with Soul of the Fire. I do like who we're spending time with and Pillars of Creation. And I think I don't because I don't think you remember it. And you know other people may not as well. But what I remember from a new magic concept that is explained and explored. I liked that because it was an it's another thing where I was like oh I like that. That's kind of an interesting idea. Cool. Yeah, I don't remember liking it. The next one after this is Pillars of Creation. Pillars of Creation. Yeah. So that'll be for. I'm just excited to to get to Chainfire because much like Bethany on the first law read along is like I'm excited to get to new material because I've read everything, even though you know some of it in particular like What of the Fold and Soul of the Fire where I'm like I may as well not have read it because I don't remember anything about it. But I have technically read all these books before. And I'm excited to read Chainfire. And you know I at least started Naked Emperor. I just have no memory of like what happened in these books. But I did years ago. But I definitely definitely didn't go beyond. I mean Faith of the Fallen was such a like high for me that after that when I read Pillars of Creation I was like okay, okay, that's fine. Okay. Maybe Naked Empire. That'll end up swinging a miss. I was like we're never going to achieve the Faith of the Fallen high, are we? Yeah. Yeah. It'll be I think it'll be interesting like when this is all over we'll have to like rank the books. Stone of Tears is currently top. Yeah. Same. I thought maybe Faith of the Fallen if it still was my favorite, but it is not. But I do feel like I was kind of, I was worried and I was so, but I also wasn't unprepared for the idea that I wouldn't love as much the second time. That's why I was worried. So I was like I suspect that I probably will feel different. But I think it was interesting to like see what it was about at the hit like at the exact right time for me when I did read it and I wouldn't alter that for the world. There's always people are saying there's the right book for the right reader at the right time. Yep. 100%. Sometimes it's like what you need to hear. And that's the thing about it is that like on a societal level, I think what this book is saying doesn't work, but on an individual level, like there is something to be said for like finding meaning in your life where you are and making the best of the life you have. And like, you know, like I think that's like on an individual level. That's great. Like what it's saying about society is general in general. No. Well, and that's kind of the thing too about like communism and capitalism. Not that they actually exist on any like spectrum the way that like acidity and what's it? What's the opposite of base? It's acids and bases. I know, but it's alkaline alkaline. So like those are actually like opposites of capitalism and communism are arguably opposites, but they're not like you can't say it's so like concretely that they are like that is the opposite to it. But in a lot of respects it is. And I feel like they're both extremes. And that's a lot of things about capitalism are better than communism. But a lot of things when you have a purely extreme capitalist system, a lot of things about communism are better than that. So it's when you go to these like huge polarized extremes that you end up with something not so great. Yeah. But yeah, but so it's for him using these books to again, that's why I said it was sort of like a saying in the argument. I don't have a replacement. I'm just saying your system is bad because he doesn't then go on to show you. Okay. So we install the system that I say is better across the board, see how much better it works. And he never does that. As far as I've read up to naked empire. And I don't think he's going to have like Richard be like president of a capitalist. What's that? His nation. Tahara. I was like brawl is the family name. Tahara. And that's the thing, like you never have to like test the metal of your own suggestion. If you're just going to keep showing us a worst case scenario of the wine that you hate. If you keep showing me the worst case scenario, the one that you hate, I mean, yes, I agree. What you're showing me is awful. I'm not saying that's a good system. No one is saying that's a good system. What you've written is a terrible system, but you've also written a straw man. And if you're never actually going to show us how yours would work or never actually show us like how. Cause like communism had its evils, you know, there, there's a reason we're against it, but it, it wasn't exactly the way that you're depicting it either. No. Well, and I just think it's funny that like. I know. That reminded me of like, um, I don't know if you've ever watched Bill Burr, the comedian. That's my brother's and my favorite comedian. Um, but he was just talking about like getting older and weirder and how like, uh, that like weirdness gets like downloaded onto your kids and they just start talking about it to other people and about like his kid. Uh, I think at that point he didn't have kids yet. And he was, I think he was talking about why he's scared of having kids because they're going to say everything that he said and he's like, your kids just going to be at school. Like my daddy keeps cash in the walls because he doesn't trust banks. I was like, that's Richard right now. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be an interesting thought experiment at the very least. Um, to a fanfic that villainizes capitalism instead. But you know, it would be, um, I don't know, more intellectually honest, I suppose. Um, it would be interesting if he then did have a book that showed the equal and opposite or show that is extreme in the other direction and having like, cause a lot of the time these books do do that where they show you like two opposing ideas and show you how neither is perfect and show you how the people who hold fiercely to either ideal are wrong. Like the books do do that a lot, but when it comes to capitalism, no, that's perfect. Well, and I think one of the things that you see in this book too is not, is that like, beyond just the effect of the ideas, it's not, it's still not equally lived out. Like there's still so much corruption in the system with officials and with like, who is forced to give up more than others and stuff, you know. But Maya, we should not hide money in the walls because money is a myth. We should hide gold in the walls. I mean, I got a Prius at the end of last year, could not have had better timing for getting a Prius. Can call him a Prius. And I think in the Mad Max world we're heading towards maybe to start storing, you know, actual supplies. But yeah, I mean, this is the, this is what made Faith of the Fallen like the 10, 11 out of 10 that it was for me when I first read it. Yeah. And now I'm like, yeah, I mean, within reason. Oh my gosh. Well, I also think it's like a matter of age. You know, I mean, like, I don't, I don't know, like the, I just, the world seems like it has more possibilities when you're younger. Is that terrible? That's kind of terrible. Yeah. The world does have more possibilities for you when you are younger. Yeah. There's a, I mean, again, it's like the speech that, that Richard gives to that kid that is in his building. Mm hmm. Where he's like, you have one life and it's yours to make, you know, make of it what you will. And you're choosing to do nothing with it. And, uh, which is like that as the basis on which to build your political system is not, you know, that's not, you can't function that way. But as like a dad to a son, hey, you got to make the best of it, like relying on people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps to have like, like widespread flourishing of your society. No, but on an individual basis, your actual advice to an individual saying make the most of it, whatever that means in whatever system we're in. Absolutely. Right. Which is why these books, because they're fantasy, because he's actually a chosen one with magic. And because it's only ever on the individual level, I personally saw an opportunity and was able to make money and it's wrong that I was prevented from doing that. I mean, sure. And that's where like, yes, in that sense, capitalism, yeah, like if you want to be rewarded, you want to be paid for the work that you do. And if you do more work than someone else, then you should be remunerated, you know, commensurately. Right. And then if you're getting paid the same as someone else because of it has to be equal, even though you did not do equal amounts of work, no one is going to be happy in a system like that. Like you don't have to be. Right. But like what he never addresses is sort of the pitfalls of like, okay, sure. But if you aren't a, you know, white little body dude like Richard, yeah, I mean, because he makes everything, he turns up everything to 11, right? And the idea that those who are, have more and are able could give some portion of what they make into the collective fund to be used for people who are less able. But he takes it to the point where they've taken literally all of your wages and no one is advocating for that. I mean, under communism, maybe, but like, you know, if he's using it as like a see nowadays, anything that's like very towards socialism is evil because they're taking away your earned money. And you're like, okay, but like, you're paying for the ultimate good. It doesn't have to be that extreme one way or another, right? Well, and I think the other. But he makes it extreme because he's like, if I have to give any of what I do, that I'm a slave to those who are in need, you're like, oh Jesus, okay, you're not a, maybe this system because you've written in a way where like literally this system would have fallen apart on day one. No one would have actually like, in this system. Yeah. Oh yeah, Nicky. Employing a man even though he has no skill. Yeah. I don't know where you're looking. Priscilla. Yeah. I mean, but that's the thing too is that is it does. Yeah, you're right. Like, but it doesn't get addressed of like, of like, yeah. Okay, sure. Business owners shouldn't have to employ somebody who doesn't do their job necessarily. However, like, then what do you do for people who aren't just lazy, which is what this may. What also, it doesn't just insinuate it basically says that if you'd give handouts, I mean, it's the same thing that we hear nowadays about how like welfare queens living on handouts that like, if you give somebody a helping hand, they'll rely on it and now they'll never try to work for themselves. And you're just like, to, which is why, like it's not neither system, nor system, which is why, like it's not, neither system is perfect because like they're not, if people who say that they're not wholly wrong, every system like that is right for abuse by certain individuals. Like people rare. Yeah. But so I'm saying to like in a system like that, yes, there will be abuse. Like you're not wrong, but that never happens. Like certainly it does happen. Yeah. And it's certainly any system where someone is trying to be helped, people are going to game the system. People are at any, anything, like in your capitalist system, in their communist system, people will game the system, whatever that system is. I mean, when we look at people pretending to have PTSD so that they can get benefits from the army, does that mean we should not take care of people who genuinely have PTSD? No, but will people fake it to try to get a benefit? Yes, they will. So like, you know, if you're saying that's your concern, that's not a reason to get, you know, to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Right. Exactly. Well, and I think there's also no sort of recognition of the reality of that there are structural things that prevent some people from being able to just do what Richard does. Because we're not, like he hasn't created a world in which there are things like racism, you know. So I, yeah, so I just have a lot of questions. I'm like, okay, like this is naive, you know. Well, good. It's the same like just, I mean, that we see all the time that like everyone has an equal chance to succeed and you're like, that simply isn't true. Like if you were able to achieve a situation where everyone did start at the starting line with an equal opportunity, well, then yeah, if we're looking at your system again in a vacuum in terms of like how this is meant to function, like sure, that sounds great. In a perfect world, in a perfect world, that sounds great and should function just fine. The thing is we are not in a perfect world and your system does not account for that. Yes. Yep, exactly. Which is why he should just admit that he was writing fantasy and not political for it. It is confusing to, well, I don't know if confusing is the right word, but like it's in conflict with itself because of how often Richard has done things selflessly and done things for the greater good and encouraged everyone to do things for the greater good, which is like a lot of the kind of like message of the books, but then when it comes to, and I appreciate again, like for political talking points of our modern day when people are like, you shouldn't be taxed, it should be charitable, people should just give and like, maybe that's his argument, but there are definitely times in, I mean, okay, so he's anti the forcing of this communist system, which again, the way you've written this communist system, which would have fallen apart on day one because they would have revolted, but okay, fine, this is the system and no one is going to disagree, that's awful. No one is going to say, that system sounded fantastic. No, obviously. You've made sure to make it the worst possible thing, but you've also written a character that forced every nation to come under its yoke, like a Caesar Napoleon Stalin figure in Richard and asked us to root for that. And I don't think Richard himself would be too keen on that state of affairs. It's just so happens that we have a benevolent dictator, which like, yeah, benevolent dictatorship is in some ways the most ideal situation to get things done and to have a flourishing population, but a benevolent dictator is not something you can guarantee long term. And so it's not a system that is functional, it is a situation that is ideal, but it is not a system that can be existing in perpetuity. So like Richard is a benevolent dictator, so like yay for the people while he's alive, like that's not a system either. Except right now for this book, he's like opting out of his dictatorship because he's pissed. Because they don't deserve him. They don't deserve him. He's a big old brat. He's such a brat in this book. They have to prove themselves. They don't appreciate me, so I'm not doing nothing. And like at the same time, I'm making fun of it because he is a bit that way, but like I again, I do not disagree entirely. And this is the thing that people said a lot about, you know, the last four years, that like if there is good that came from this, it is like a heightened awareness and like civic minded like citizens who are aware of what's happening, who are paying attention to what's happening and an educated electorate. And in that sense, I mean like, he's not wrong that like people who have not lost something or have not truly reached a point where they are feeling the hurt of something, people are pretty apathetic and people won't really do anything. So he's not wrong. Like when he's saying your revolution will fall apart because none of you are willing to kill, none of you are willing to die, none of you are willing to go past the point of their return. You're like, oh, let's ask nicely, it's not going to work. And you're like, yeah, you're not wrong. Like when we've seen like, you know, the Stalin regime, like that didn't fall because they asked nicely. So like he's not wrong in saying that his own army or his own people won't actually fight for something if they're not conceiving of the fact that they are going to lose it. Yeah. So like in that sense, yes. But at the same time, is the solution to be like, fine, you all die then, then that'll show you like, I don't know that that's a good system either. No. Yes. The nuance of reality is ignored by Atlas Shrugged. At least this one is more fun to read. Okay. And also he's like a third of the length. Yeah. Atlas Shrugged is, it's not short. Rise up and live it as long as it's under time. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No nuances ignored because it's just easier to argue. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty terrible. Yeah. But I have a purely fantasy world building storytelling pet peeve. It's just not like from a political perspective as a citizen of the world. No, like just like your fantasy book. He's generally decent with like battle strategies and war tactics and things like that. It's not like the best thing. And it's not. A lot of it is also kind of vague on details. It does fall apart into close scrutiny because armies, the way that he writes them function, the way societies do, where it's like, you know, these big sweeping plans that just work and they don't account for those like minutiae. But like they're generally like pretty sound ideas. So, you know, pretty sound strategy or broad strokes. But he's, he's written himself into a little bit of a, maybe not a corner, but it's a problem. That he has made to gang and that army so OP that I do not believe that they would not overrun the Midlands army, the Daharan army instantly. And the way they make it sound like, oh, like they are like, they are too money for us to defeat. So we're going to keep defeating chunks of them, but they still have more to throw at us. So we won this one battle, but they have more to throw at us. I frankly do not understand why they didn't just keep running you over until you are all dead. Like there is no, especially when they made it clear that Jigang does not care about people dying. So it can't be that, oh, we didn't want to waste the men. He does not care. So he would just simply send his horde like the army of the dead and return of the king to just like across you until you are dead. I don't care what magic glass you have. I don't care what little tricks you have. It does not matter. You've told me that the sheer numbers that he has cannot be beaten. So why is it still a question? Why are you still fighting so that there's a plot that can happen? That's why. Yeah. I mean. And like if you have made Jigang's forces even just twice as big as Midland's forces, I'd be like, that's, that's a big hill to climb. Right. That's a big hurdle, but. But it's like grammatically. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an infinite number. So you're just like, I don't understand why there's anyone left standing. There's no reason for it. No. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he doesn't need to be a good strategist because he has the numbers. You don't have to have any strategy whatsoever. I mean, maybe the argument is just that he enjoys the battling back and forth because he has kind of sadistic. So maybe that's why. I just don't know how there's still a war. Yeah. I don't even know. I mean, as OP as Richard is, Jigang's army is the most OP thing in the whole, whole series. Yeah. Yep. And then just being in the mountain paradise. Having, having a holiday, winter holiday. Yeah. That'd be fun. Where we get, we get the seeds planted for the pull yourself up by your bootstraps plot line. We're about to see where we had to force Kailin to heal herself and to not just give into being cuddled because if we keep cuddling her, she will never pull herself up by her bootstraps. And like that's the thing. Like you're not wrong when it comes to like, you know, what's the physical therapy and like recovering, like you're not wrong. Like people do, you know, they'll say, oh, it hurts. It hurts. You're like, yes, but you have to start to use it because that's the only way you'll heal. Yeah. So yes, that's true. But again, to apply that across the entire society and say that that's how everything works. That's how sometimes that is true. Right. Yeah. I mean, physical therapy is like that, but. Which is funny because what's the wizard sticks through? It's like, uh, reason is truth and that like feelings don't come into it. It was the original facts. Don't care about your feelings. Oh, man. Yeah. I don't know which part was passionate because I feel like I've been at 11 for the whole time. I think this was about the world building army thing. Oh. I'm glad that, uh, that came my, my passion for this subject came across. Yes. Yeah. Which again, on the individual level, yes, they're pushing her but being supportive and that's all well and good. But you know, a lot of people don't have support systems like that, but that's the whole problem. Right. Not everybody has. In fact, no one in this world has a relationship like Richard and Kailin. If they come close, they die. Right. So. Which is sad. Yup. This is why I wanted Dreffen to live and to be around and to be gay. And him, I like Warren and Verna very much, but also Dreffen and Warren. If Dreffen was not the piece of shit that he was, it's like having a Richard Warren fanfic, but not because Dreffen isn't Richard and they can just also be happening. There you go. We really do need to rewrite this. Yes. Speaking of which, I did kind of hate the whole thing of like, Nikki finally deciding. Yeah, he does. Finally deciding she wants Richard to sleep with her and he refuses. So she's like, oh, well, let me go. Just take some random dude into my bed and let him like violently have sex with me. I was like, that is. I'm unsurprised. This is a good kind of book. Well, and then has the maternity spell. I just can't believe that I mean, of course we have that scene where Kailin thinks that it's actually Richard and it has to be car to be like, um, I don't make sure. Yeah. Gotta have car around to sit straight. She's there. Whereas I was like, clearly this was not Richard because no. Not just that, but like you literally have no idea what's going on. So like, who's to say that like, we know what happened, like what you just described, but who's to say someone didn't just assault Nikki? Like, you know, how do you know? You don't know anything. Yeah. That's yes, accurate. Don't get your hopes up. He's the person I'm talking about does not end up being gay or good. And I want both. There are a couple of women who are. Yeah. And they're happy for a little while until. Until they're not. He dies. Because of course. Because nobody can be happy. If a couple is happy, one of them will die. And this also happens in that scene. So we get a twofer. Yeah. But when you say push the idea of the maternity spell further, what more could he have done? It wasn't. No, I agree with that. It wasn't really explored. Very. They do mention that like Nikki feels some like echo of Kalen's love for Richard and that Kalen feels some of like Nikki's sadness and emptiness. Like. But it did. Okay. The nitpicky part of me. I was like, so they like, if there's a breeze, do they feel that on their skin? If they are like kind of tired and didn't get a lot of sleep. Do you also? I was wondering, I'm like, if somebody was fighting in a battle and there are muscles or sore, like, but then also I'd be like, so is it whichever is worse overrides, whichever is good, you know, like if I had a great night of sleep, but you didn't. Does my healthy override your sleeplessness and you can go off of like my well restedness or is it like, you know, when you get a sale and you get like buy one, get one free, but whichever one was the cheaper one is the free one. Is that how this works? Yeah. So I was like, is Kalen starving? What's happening? No, I mean, that's, yeah. Or is she only surviving because Kalen is ingesting nutrients and Nikki is somehow getting some of those? I don't know. Because like Richard was a concern that if Nikki got sick or died, then that would affect Kalen. Right. But I mean, becoming emaciated is also going to presently affect Kalen. Yep. Kalen has been fun, but like last time she did this in Stone of Tears, she wasn't eating anything either and nearly got poisoned. So the girl apparently does not. I mean, this is one of those series where the heroes can just go and go like energizer bunnies on no food and no sleep and you're just like BS. Like Richard being able to like do everything he does and all of that like physical labor on cabbage soup. I'm sorry, you'd be dead. Absolutely not. And then she's like, oh, like, you know, it's like, it's made him really lean but still muscular. I'm like, no, you would begin to lose muscle or just like fall over and die. Like you couldn't do it. Or like the bug infested millet. Yum. Then Nikki isn't eating so that Richard will have some. Yeah. That's great. Priscilla, you're not wrong. Zed knows what's up. That's the thing that I know is never bad. Zed is always the highlight. Zed is great. I always love Zed. Yeah. Same. I mean, he's also like, he's so warm. Like he's that presence that like, yes, you know, he's the Gandalf that like knows magic and can do magic and like is like a walking exposition device. Like he just, you know, that's great to have around. But he's also just like such a caring warm person that like, you know, when Kalen's upset or missing Richard, you know, like a hug from Zed and being like, I miss him too. Like you really feel the like, I feel hugged by Zed when I like read that. He's like, like that's the granddad you definitely want to have. Not just because he's magical. Yeah. He talks to chickens naked. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Nikki got to live. Yep. Yeah. And I do think again, this is where like, he's just pretty black and white about this capitalism thing. And you're like, okay, apparently that's the hill you're dying on. Because when it comes to like the sisters of the dark, he's very happy to redeem them and very happy to show how they're led down that path of darkness. And we have this. Yeah. And we have, and that other sister that she immediately died, the one that went after Nikki and just returned to the light. She dies. But like we had that too, you know, where like they, we see how they become sisters of the dark and not all of them are pure evil. And like the more it's, the entire nation of Dahara is like all, you know, a huge redemption arc. So. Yeah. And I mean, just the, you know, I mean, you know, it's just like a real redemption arc. So. Yeah. And I mean, just the, I like that of the like thuggish punk boys, right. That Richard encounters. He gives those little pep talk and teaches them how to be useful and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Which like, it's not dissimilar from like after school programs to teach to a valuable skill. Yeah. Which are funded by the government and your taxes. But anyway, I like that because I was like, you know, what, okay, it's not like every punk kid is going to like, suddenly be like, Oh, thanks, Mr. Now I feel useful. So I do like that the one that Nikki ends up, you know, having it off with. Not everyone is sold on this that Richard isn't able, even though he's a rare person and everybody just falls into his belt, not everybody though, but like it worked on the people that already had it in them to like, they just needed to be shown the way. As opposed to other people who are like, I'm very happy to be to be evil. Right. And you're a little speech about helping myself. No way. You're ruining this whole system. That's how it's supposed to work. And you're ruining my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Dear one and bags. Who needs to curse when you can just say bags. Toasted toes truth. I haven't used those two toes truth in a minute. Yeah. But yeah. I feel like this is like a four star for me. I think I just after right after reading it, I was like, this was so fun though, but I did four and a half. Like, Hmm. You know who I miss? Hmm. Nathan. Nathan. Yes. We haven't really seen Nathan. He's just like a boogeyman hovering in the fringes where they're like, we're still looking for Nathan. He could be up to anything. Good. And I do like again how, and I just said the redemption arcs of the sisters of the dark, but also redemption arcs for sisters of the light who are the evil ones in stone of tears. And the fact that like we're still to this, like it's been four books since then and we're still like deconstructing is what they did right or wrong. And the answer is neither. Like was their heart in the right place? Some of them. I would say Anne's heart is in the right place. And did she go about it in ways that are less than ideal? Yeah. Was she also the product of a belief system that made her think this was the right way to go about things? Also. Yes. Um, and the way that it's still saying, you know, Like they're a little debate about prophecy and about like, did you make this come about because you wanted to make sure this prophecy would come about and without your money, it wouldn't have come true. Right. It's your fault that this happened. And then other, you know, they're like, well, where it would have come about a different way. And we just made it come about the way the, the best case way. Right. And you're like, you can't go back and do it over. So you can never know which it is. Like, you know, I like those little like debates that it has internally because it's not like this is the absolute truth of how this is. They're like, where you don't know. Right. There's an argument to be made for either. And I like that for the most part. These books do that when it comes with questions like this. It's like, there is an argument to be made and a different characters will represent the different sides of it. And they'll kind of debate it. And it's kind of like, well, we don't actually have an answer. But when it comes to communism versus capitals, there is an answer and a statue confirming it and a mass revolution. Like there is no debate. Okay. Cool. Yeah. No question there. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know the, the prophecy. Is that unpopular? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that unpopular? I like Ann. I like Ann too. She's not like my favorite, but. Oh. The loss of Warren for us. And Verna. I just, it's so sad. At the same time, Kaylin burning the journey book. I was like, just not necessary. Are we burning books now? So we're doing. I mean, it's really like a journal. But I mean, it's a, it's a really useful magical thing. You're like, I was Kaylin. I'd be like, I'm going to, I'm confiscating this. I'm keeping this. You don't, you can't be trusted with this. I'm going to take this over. Yeah. That's fair. It's the, she was making a point. A bit extreme. She's always getting mad at Richard for being like, acting out violently and being like, it's my way or the highway. Kaylin's been hanging out with him too much. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. Like they're so certain that everything they do is, is right. And, you know, it's like part of what Richard and now Kaylin are doing is poking holes in their certainty and their assumptions about how the world works and. Like what their role in it should be. And I do like that we got to see it from Nikki's perspective coming to the Palace of the Province as a kid and how it just furthered the indoctrination that she already received as a kid and how to this day, the sister that doesn't go after her for, and it's like turned back to the light. She's not a sister of the dark anymore. And how being a sister of the light isn't necessarily that much better. Cause when she's like, oh, I remember Nikki as a girl, you know, I probably should have made her even more penitent. That's where I messed up. And you're like, no, no, that's not the lesson here. But the fact that they still think that, and Anne is like, yeah, good point. And you're like, nope. It's the opposite of what Nikki needed. And so like, and that's why Nikki is so struck by Richard. Cause it's like the first time she's seen. A different. Answer to this that isn't, I mean, it's not. Unreasonable to think if she's been fed. First that she's awful and horrible and irredeemable, just by default. And then the only other path is the keeper. And you're like, well, I'm already consigned to the keeper because I can never be good enough. You're like, yeah, it's not surprising you'd be pushed to that side of things. And those are the only two options you've been presented to be like purest of pure or your sister of the dark. And those are the only two options you're like, okay. So Richard comes in and it's like, neither. And you're like, tell me more. I will kidnap you so you can tell me more. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at this point, yeah. Yeah. I think she's an interesting character. Well, I mean, and to this point, like at the end, you're like, oh, have you returned to being a sister of a light now? And she's like, no, no, I am Nikki. Yeah. They're like, yeah, shake the shackles of all the oppressors. Yes. Love it. And she's so powerful. It's like, I'm curious what she's going to do with that. Well, we have the Nikki Chronicles. Yes. She could be interesting. Her car and her arc, me and her and Benjamin. Oh, yeah. That was the most like. I'm betting one of them is going to die soon. That was the most like, rom-com-y part of the book for me. And I was like, okay. She's got her boyfriend. Cool. Very cutesy. Yeah. Yeah. I do like that. Honestly though, like, I'll prefer the little stuff like her learning to make bread and her insisting on giving him bread to take. And like the way that she keeps trying to be like, well, I mean, like, it's like no big deal. I'm like, it doesn't matter. I mean, like, I would have like, I was going to rock anyway. Yeah. It's not even a thing. Well, I don't know that I have like. Just want to end this the way that the book ended. Lardo. Lardo. Lardo. Lardo. I mean, apparently it's super great. So we're told. And the book just makes a difference. It's like, it makes a year to properly make it. Yeah. I mean, Kara's got a lot of plot armor at this point. Yeah. It's not the name of a person. I just want to be clear. It's food. In fairness, it is the part of the book that after however, any years that's the part I remembered. So arguably yes. I mean, like, based on a real food that I'm familiar with that is not called Lardo. But it's the same idea of like the guling fat. So like he did not invent this, but he did call it Lardo. That's all Terry good guy, no one else did that. All right. Well, Pillars of Creation next month will be. Pillars of Creation will be, that'll be interesting. We'll be back on my channel for that. I'm excited for that one. I don't, it's with the skipping thing, like Pillars of Creation, it's still pretty good in my opinion. And it's Naked Empire, that's the, we've broken the cycle of it in my opinion, or at least my memory of it. Maybe I'll read Pillars of Creation, like what was I thinking? It was awful. We will find out. We will indeed. Yeah. It's like the demon chicken. What does Maya think of these books at this point? We've referenced a lot of things. I know who I also miss. Gratch, I need to scratch. Yeah. Yep. It's good to go in with lower expectations. Yeah. Always, always, always. Expect the worst, hope for the best. That's what you should write on the statue. That's my life motto. It's your life. Expect the worst, hope for the best. Oh man. Okay. I wanna, I mean, he's probably has little pups and then they can be little baby gars that Richard can play with. Aw, yeah. Oh my gosh. A bit, yeah. I mean, you also have Anne and Verna. Yeah. Tara, those aren't very crazy names. I mean, in dude, his name was Paul and his mother's name is Jessica. You know. It was the 90s. But if they wrote it now, Richard would be spelled with a Y instead of an I. Cause it's a fantasy name. Right. That's how you show that it's fantasy. It's like, he's always, you know, I've always known his name as Richard even before I started reading the book. So it's never been weird to me. And like, I don't know. When you see his full, Richard Seifer and Richard Raul like sound like fantasy names when you say the whole thing. Yeah, I agree. Better not be. I know there's no rules in this world other than the rules Terry Goodkind wants to make. So he better have spared the gars. Yes, indeed. I'm pretty sure the dude names are the way they are because of biblical reasons. Maybe. I'm like 99% sure that's why. Yeah. So Richard is just Richard. There's no biblical reason for my name, Richard. It's just Richard. Don't forget, Scarlet is a red dragon. Indeed. In case you ever wondered. That could be arranged. Because when they have that conversation about how the chimes affected the magical living beasties. Yeah. Alrighty then. Okay. That is that. Thanks everybody for joining us. I think that was a pretty good conversation. Yeah. I'll see you this time next month for Pillars of Creation. We will. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I think it'll be interesting. All right. Have a enjoy your weekend, everybody. And we'll see you when we see you. Bye.