 Energy 808, The Cutting Edge here on Think Tech, and I'm Jay Fidel, my co-host is Marco Mangelsdorf, and we're talking about the Henry Curtis roundabout. You don't mind if we call it that, Henry, right? Henry Curtis, welcome to the show. Thank you, glad to be here. So, Marco, can you give a proper introduction for Henry and also talk about the scope of our discussion to follow? Sure, well, thank you very much, Jay, for being back together and thank you very much, Henry, for us three being back together. It's always such a pleasure, I always learn so much. So, the topics that we have today have to do with looking at what's going on in Puerto Rico, what has been going on over the past several days, but continues to go on as far as their energy situation there, which is pretty darn grim right now, which kind of leads into the notion of grid resiliency, which also kind of leads into the notion of microgrids, whether we're really doing much of anything, practically speaking concretely in this state, as far as microgrids, other than talking about it. And then hopefully as well, we'll get a chance to talk about what the folks on the friendly island of Molokai are doing or trying to do. I was there for about a week last week and there's been some interesting press in the world-famous Molokai dispatch that has been taking a deep dive into what the, some of the folks on Molokai are trying to do in terms of changing their energy infrastructure and making it more better, cheaper, and more resilient. So that's the scope. Okay, and if we have time, we'll revisit Huanua. Oh yes, Huanua. And we'll update on that, because that requires us to update on it all the time. So let's talk about Puerto Rico first, Henry. You know, in 2017, Trump threw paper towels to the crowd in Puerto Rico, demonstrating that he really didn't give a rip what happened to them. And then we had this incredible, we did, you know, we did 18 shows. I went this morning and counted them. We did 18 talk shows about Puerto Rico and what happened with energy there was really extraordinary. And one of the things that was interesting was that there were two solar farms. One was built with one kind of fastener and the other was built with another kind of fastener. The one with the stronger fastener stayed in place during the hurricane. The other one, it came apart in shreds. And you know, it demonstrated, we had an expert in Washington who talked about this and it demonstrated that if you use resilient equipment, you're much more likely to survive a bad hurricane. I don't know what's happening with the rain in Puerto Rico. Now, I'm only thinking that if they had more resilience and if we had more resilience, we'd be better off. That was one of the lessons I recall from Puerto Rico. But tell us what is happening in Puerto Rico and what is instructive about it? What is instructive? I think, well, first, their system is totally fried right now. I mean, a million people without power. The grid is down, they're in deep trouble. And certainly they had five years to get out of it. One of the problems was when they initially sought to deal with it, they hired a two-person firm that had never done a contract more than $1.5 million and handed them 300 million to fix the system, which is not the way you go. You need expertise, not political connections. They need to far more be able to either decide to island their grid in a whole bunch of small micro grids or really harden their transmission grid with massive towers and really secure the solar and the wind farms that exist. I remember by comparison, that at the entrance to Nelha on the big island, the guard shack at one time had a small wind turbine on it which blew off in a windstorm. And so we're not immune to the effect of putting in systems that don't work. We really have to be thinking not only about the transmission grid, but the different renewable energy and fossil fuel systems on the grid and seeing how they would survive in a really catastrophic storm. And that's one focus that Life of the Land is really focusing on, not how we get to 100% today, but what happens under what's called either a black sky or a black swan event, where either a natural disaster or an extreme weather event or a man-made event causes catastrophe. And how do you survive the grid under those conditions? How do you maintain power on those times? You're scaring me just thinking of the implications here. We could be Puerto Rico. We could, I mean, I'll say it again. We could be Puerto Rico. So the question really is, what does pardon mean, Henry? Can you give us a scope on that? What does it entail? Pardon means at what level of wind, at what level of storm, at what level of landslide does the system fall apart? So obviously you could put in a wind system that falls down under a five mile an hour wind or a 100 mile an hour wind or a 500 mile an hour wind. The more you strengthen the system to withstand an event that may never occur, the higher your costs are. And should people today pay to harden the grid so that in five years, the people that then have a grid that survives an extreme weather event, should they pay for it in advance? However you do that, who gets to pay and how far do you harden the grid? Pico says that we don't have to worry about a category five hurricane because if a category five hits, you'll be nothing left. So you only really have to harden the system either to a level two or a level four hurricane and it depends how much money you wanna spend to what level you harden it. You agree with that? I agree that we have to look at extreme weather events and natural disasters. I mean, in 2018, we got hit by a tropical storm, a hurricane, rain bombs, and a lava eruption. And so 2018 should be a wake up call that something needs to be done. And so the Hawaiian Electric has just opened a docket at the Public Utilities Commission that Ulupono Initiative and Life of the Land are in that we'll look at how you harden the grids on each of the islands. And what is your position, your recommendation on that? I think we have, well, Life of the Land was charged with looking at the environmental, cultural, and equity issues. Ulupono was charged at looking at the cost issues. I think we also have to look at the technology issues. That's something we put in our motion to intervene that the PUC did not rule on. And we've asked them to clarify that position. For example, there are some transmission lines where if the line snaps, the line is de-energized before it hits the ground. That's important in wildfire areas. There are other areas where underground lines, you can detect where a fault is going to occur before it occurs, but involves installing technology underground to determine that rather than waiting for a disaster, then wondering where it is, and then digging up the entire line looking for it. So it's technology and it's cost. What about micro grids? You mentioned that earlier. Is that an appropriate solution at this point? Well, can I jump in here for just a second before we go to micro grids, which is that from my reading of what's going on in Puerto Rico, a couple of things. One, is they were hit by a category one hurricane, which, if I recall correctly, is 75, I believe, 100 miles an hour. So it wasn't a two, it wasn't a three, let alone a four or five. And two, they were getting hit by, or expecting to get hit by, something along the lines of 30 inches, 30 inches of rain within a 24-hour period, or something along those lines, two and a half feet in a short period of time. So I mean, it's not so much not only big winds, because this was relatively low wind in terms of one to five, but also these rain bombs, which I think Henry mentioned a few minutes ago, these rain bombs, which, how do you harden infrastructure to handle 24, 30 inches of rain in a 24-hour period? We knew you would have an answer, Henry. There are two ways, I think of, of two principal ways of doing it. One is to build massive transmission lines that are really thick and hard and stuck way far down into the ground. Of course, that requires a lot of engineering throughout the grid. The other way is to be able to either build an isolated microgrid, or an interconnected microgrid, which can either way can function on its own if it's disconnected from the rest of the grid. The issue there is the microgrid has to have enough generation in it to support the load in that area. You could make Waikiki a microgrid, but Waikiki does not have a lot of solar or wind or that kind of stuff. So you make it a microgrid, if it doesn't have any power going in, but it has a lot of power going out, it doesn't work. So a microgrid requires that you really distribute generation where it's needed. And I think that's one of the debates in Hawaii, whether you put all of the wind and solar in rural areas where you'll have rural fights over why is it going in my neighborhood, and then you build these massive overhead transmission lines through rural areas, and then you underground them in urban Honolulu. Or you start building solar farms in Kahala Mall and Waikai and over parks and parking lots throughout the state. And let's just do a quick reality check here, gentlemen. And correct me, please, Henry, I'd love to be corrected on this if I'm wrong, but is there a single microgrid in operation across the islands of Hawaii State of Hawaii? I know of the folks at Dutch Kuiper and Parker Ranch have brought in people like Siemens, Booz Allen, others hudshot expensive consulting companies over the past, I'm going to guess 10 to 15 years, 10 to 15 years to look at possibly going for microgrid and in and around the Kamala area on this beautiful island. I don't think anything has been done. I mean, there's been talks with Hawaiian Electric, talks with Helco, but I mean, please, tell me that I'm getting too cynical in my old age, Henry. I mean, is there a single microgrid either in operation now in the state of Hawaii or, in your opinion, close to going into operation? Let's just define close by, let's say, within the next one to two years, okay? Okay, I think Camp Smith had a microgrid. I don't know if it's operational. I know there's a proceeding now before the Public Utilities Commission to look at a utility microgrid in Kohala on the big island. Those are the only two examples I can give. But one of the problems- Gofield Barracks. Gofield Barracks, that's a common grid. Yes, you're right. Schofield is the third. But one of the issues is how do you, well, there are two issues. One, the PUC Solve about a year ago, which is establishing rules for microgrids interfacing with the utility grid. But the second is how do you pencil them out? Microgrids require a lot of technical know-how to make them work. And if they're not economical, people are not gonna turn to them. But if they're needed in case a storm occurs, they'll be required sort of in the future. How do you figure out their value now? And who do you charge the bill to to implement them? It's complicated. I mean, you mentioned before that every grid, every microgrid could stand by itself, but that's more expensive and sometimes not feasible for a given area. And so maybe it's a matter of making groups of microgrids where one can assist the other. And you can have technology that will automatically switch so that one microgrid gets serviced by one nearby. You know what they say, Henry? They said this in George Orwell's animal farm book, all microgrids are equal, except some microgrids are more equal than others. Yes, and the microgrids that will tend to be implemented first, I think, are commercial microgrids where a shopping center or a commercial enterprise will decide that they need to be secure and they will be able to island their shopping center. But residential microgrids, it's much harder because you need to bring in a manager to manage them and what happens when things go wrong and who is responsible if something goes wrong. So just like community-based renewable energy, it sounds great, but commercial operations will tend to adopt them first. Well, let's say that, you know, we're not doing a whole lot of microgrids. By the way, the one at Schofield is, I'm not sure that it's solar, I'm not sure. A microgrid doesn't have to be solar to be something else. But let me ask you a really important question and that is this, you know, we are in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. We don't have a lot of support from anywhere else and we have hurricanes and we have climate change. You don't have to read the paper for 20 minutes to find out how much climate change, extreme weather and other effects of climate change are happening these days. And Hawaii has been, you know, the brunt of extreme weather before. We're lucky that we haven't had it lately, but you know, every day we don't have it is one day closer to the day we do have it. And we can have Puerto Rico and not only in stage one, two, three, but in stages higher than that. And it could be rain, it could be anything. And so, you know, it's Henry, it's coming. It's coming, I'm telling you now it's coming. Make a bet. So the question is, are we ready? No, we're not ready. And the question is, what do we do? In what order do we do it? And how much do we start spending now? And who pays for that? And those are each very thorny issues. Okay, well, then we've talked a little bit about Puerto Rico and micro grids and what we can do about that. I must say we haven't quite solved the problem here today or even gotten our arms fully around it, but it's time to move on to Molokai. Marco, your first and last names begin with an M standing for Molokai. So perhaps you could start the conversation. I'd be happy to and just to say one more thing regarding micro grids and what's been going on in Puerto Rico. So after the hurricanes of years ago, I know for a fact that Tesla does spend quite a bit of time to their credit in subsequently installing thousands of power walls, which are self-contained storage units for residential use, residential application. I don't know the exact number out the top of my heads, but it's going to be very interesting to see in light of what's been going on in Puerto Rico in the past 48 hours or so. Just how well all these nano grids I call them where you have solar and storage on individual homes or let's say a community center or a clinic or something like that. So we're gonna, we'll have real world data on that really soon, which will be interesting as well. So regarding Molokai, there are a number of parties now that have come into being over the past several years that are doing some really laudable, very interesting work. And all with the idea and the goal of making Molokai more resilient and trying to bring down the energy costs, which is amongst the highest and the state highest combination to the 3000 or so MECO ratepayers there on that island. And I've taken something of a dive, there have been a couple of good articles in the Molokai dispatch, first on the 14th, first on the 7th and the second on the 14th, I reread them earlier today. And there are some very, very ambitious desires and plans there to take Molokai where Molokai has never gone before. And I'm gonna be bold and kind of provocative here. My take is that not a whole lot of progress is gonna be made, at least not substantive or let alone transformative change on that island as far as the energy infrastructure goes unless and until a co-op comes to life there, a co-op that owns the current electric grid there, generation, transmission, distribution, the co-op actually purchases it from Hawaiian Electric and does a KIUC. I see that as a sine qua non for the folks on Molokai to be able to do real and transformative change. What's your take on that, Henry? Hey, Henry, why do we care about Molokai? We talk about it, Heather and Jan, but why do we care about what happens there? I think Molokai has two advantages. One, it's a community that has a set area, a set number of people and it's small enough that you can do things on it and experiment with things on it that can then be expanded to larger systems. The second thing is that the Molokai residents are more involved in looking at energy and water and other issues on their island and trying to build a sustainable future they're more engaged and more active than any other community in the state. Going on the other side, the more difficult thing is they submitted the co-op there, the Molokai Clean Energy Co-op there submitted two bids under to HECO recently or MECO and they were both rejected based on cost. And therefore Molokai has to really do a lot more work because obviously putting in a system on Molokai is a lot harder than Oahu because first you have to bring the parts to Oahu and then to probably Maui and then to Molokai, you're dealing with smaller components, you're dealing with a less firm grid. So there are a lot of costs that are not being associated with other islands, but I give them very high marks for one, trying to really look at the issues and two, really building consensus across the island about where to go. What's the life of the land doing on Molokai? I'm more, I think really, well, yes, we're working both with the sustainable Molokai and with the co-op in seeking to ensure that Molokai has both strong renewables put in place and builds a sustainable low climate impact future. So we're really excited about the direction they're going, but it's going to take time. Do we have lessons yet from the, call it the Molokai laboratory that can be deployed in other areas of the state? I think the thing that they are doing is mapping their own resources, looking at ag land, looking at energy, looking at water, looking at the whole holistic approach and really seeking to understand how their island can move together towards the future. And that kind of in-depth holistic approach I haven't seen in other areas. There are isolated areas that pop up from time to time. Obviously, KIUC has done a spectacular job on their island having the lowest rates in the state, the highest amounts of renewable energy and they're a model to shine. But that has largely been KIUC led, whereas on Molokai, it's a real effort to engage the community to have a community led program. Are they more or less resilient against extreme weather? Molokai? Yes. And it's how you... One of the things they propose, one of the things they propose as you know, Henry, is to have, I believe four micro grids that would be spread out strategically across the island, which makes a lot of sense to me. But again, I'm going to be provocative here with you, Henry. To what extent do you consider Hawaiian Electric to be a supportive, encouraging partner to try to make this vision that the folks on Molokai are developing to try to make that vision into reality? I would give them both positive and negative. I think they are trying in some levels. I think in other levels, they have a lot, they have to continue to work on. It's a mixed bag at this point. Okay. Well, that's a perfect segue to Huho Nua, which is a mixed bag too. We've spoken about it a couple of times already, and I know you follow with your principle in it, in the litigation. So, query, what is happening? The last time we talked about it, it was moving on to the Supreme Court yet again. Is that changed? On October 5th, Huho Nua would be submitting their opening argument to the Supreme Court. Lifeland and the other parties will have 40 days thereafter to file our brief. Huho Nua will have 15 days thereafter to file their reply brief, basically. And that will all be done by the end of this year. So then the Supreme Court will have to schedule or oral arguments and issue a decision. Has there been any decision out of the Supreme Court in the interim that sheds light on their sensibilities on these subjects? Not directly on point. One tangential decision was the Peiahu decision in which the Supreme Court said if there are provable environmental impacts not directly related to greenhouse gases, the PUC has the culliana to deal with those. But no, not directly on greenhouse gas emissions. It's an important case and you're right to suggest that what happens in this case, whatever it is, will have an effect on PUC and energy in general. So we need to keep following it and keep following you, Henry. You're involved in so much and so knowledgeable. Marco, you wanna summarize, rebut and do our discussion here today because we're out of time. Sure, just one point came up with me and Huho Nua, thank you for the update, Henry, is that I believe is referred to as Helico II, the second Supreme Court decision that was correct me if I'm wrong here was really short, very clear as far as what it said the commission must do and this next go around during the course of hearings which they completed earlier this year. And it really comes down to whether the Supreme Court will rule that the commission did or did not follow its instructions. I thought clear, specific and relatively short instructions. Am I characterizing that correctly? Yes, you are characterizing it correctly but there is a wide gulf between what the PUC and life of land thinks are in the Supreme and to hear and the consumer advocate are all thinking that the court said one thing that's very clear to understand and Huho Nua is on the other side of the abyss saying that the Supreme Court actually gave very clear instructions but a different set of instructions. And multiple realities, eh? As in what is the meaning of is to do a Bill Clinton, right? And what is the meaning of a comma versus a semicolon? There you go. So what's your website so people can know more about you, Henry? We're actually massively overdoing it right now. So the next show, we should discuss it. Life Land's website is really convoluted right now but we're undergoing a massive change. When all that settles down, what's the name gonna be? That's a good question. I'll get back to you on that. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Henry Curtis, Life of the Land and my co-host Marco Mangostoff. Thank you very much for this discussion on Energy 808. We'll see you next time. Thank you, gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.