 Alright, so welcome back. It's Sylvie, Independence Day Special, right here on Plus TV Africa. And to our next guest, who is here to talk about the Nigerian educational system, or the Nigerian education system, we have Olu Dare Akin Laja. He's a CEO, O-A-R-N-D, company transformation strategist as well. Is that a research and development company? Yes. Oh, fantastic. And you are in the education sector as well. Yes. Fantastic, guys. You sat down in his book, I just knew. All right, Messi and I are glad to indeed have you. We'll start with, of course, the President's speech gives us talking points. I know you told me that it gave you nothing to talk about, but he says that his pain, you know, when it looks at it, thinks about the ASUS strike, you know, it causes him pain. What are your thoughts on the President's feelings? And I know he said this something similar when he met his stakeholders in the education sector, you know, he said he's not happy about it. But I'll just go to paragraph 25 of his speech where he said, I must confess, I must confess that I am very pained by the recurring disruption to our tertiary education system. And I'm using this Independence Day celebration to reiterate my call for the striking academic staff union of universities to return to the classroom while assuring them to deal with the contending issues within the limits of the scarce resources available, he says. That's number one. So he also went on to say that his administration has made appreciable progress in redressing the issues of ASU that have been lingering over 11 years, you know. But if you look at the agreements from 2009 and the renegotiate agreement of 2019, the federal government has not paid any money as far as revitalization is concerned. Out of the 1.3 trillion narrative, only paid 200 billion that was back in, I think, during the time of Jonathan. So if he says that they've made appreciable progress, what does that mean? Okay, so I think the president understands what he meant by... Is it disconnected, do you feel? I don't think he's disconnected. I think his disposition seems to be sort yourself out. There are bigger things I'm concerned about in some sort. I don't think they're taking the educational problem seriously. I'm not sure they are concerned about it, okay? Because if you find how much money moves to other sectors, maybe security, infrastructure and the rest, it just shows you where I think they are paying attention to. Okay? But in these other areas, they're, oh, it's aso. We'll find a way to deal with it, okay? Oh, no, it's education. We can always patch it around. So I think it's just the commitment of the government with regards to education. I'm not sure they see it as a crisis yet. Well, that's because I mean, some of the things they're asking for, for instance, there's been no recitation panel. There's been no recitation panel over 10 years, or almost 10 years through any federal university from the federal government if we're going to see what's going on there. And so he says, so you're saying that you don't feel he's sincere in what he's saying that if he was paying them that they've even made progress, you don't feel he's sincere at all? So if you, you know, certain statements are political. Some statements are just thrown out there. But if you want to do a critical analysis, that's the development company. So if you want to deal with the underground data, you can see that there's crisis in that sector, okay? Now, sometimes when I speak on issues like this, I always like to draw a balance. I hope at some point we'll also get to the responsibility on the university angle, okay? But for now we're talking about government, okay? What is government's responsibility? Government needs to show more commitment to this system. We already stretched as a country with regards to how we are designed. That's another discussion for another day. But I think that we can actually start from there because I'm wondering if we look at the system and it's a good thing that we're 62 today, it just gives us the opportunity to go back to the drawing board and look at where we have come from, what exactly we're doing right and what we're not doing right and where we can get it right. And so we know that the, you know, the structure that we're practicing in the educational system, the 6334 formula, do you think that's what the problem is? Or the problem is with funding. Just like you have tried to mention that there's no attention to it because there's been a complaint about budgetary allocation every other time. So I'd like you to share your thoughts. Where exactly lies the problem with our educational system? Okay, so in design thinking there's something you call a wicked problem. A wicked problem means when you're trying to solve one, you might end up creating a bigger problem on the larger chain. So we're going to look at the value chain. It's a long value chain that involves students, parents, lecturers, and government, okay? So picking one person as a little as the major problem will dampen the effect of the other people. So take for instance, what's the quality of learning to start with? How much can government really do to optimize the quality of learning in schools? How much investment can government really give? How can government monitor that the money given is spent on the things that we say we want to spend the money on for instance? Okay, so it's a full value chain. So one of the things I think we need to redesign is how we quickly compare ourselves to international countries. You never say, oh, go to the UK. The education system is great. How much of those schools in the UK do government still fund? For instance. But if you try that in Nigeria, maybe the rest of Lagos will be paying 750,000 Naira school fees. Or maybe one million Naira per semester. How many people can afford that? That's another problem. So you see, it's a full value chain. So I think the first thing we must ask ourselves, I'm a consultant. If I come to your company and you tell me, oh, my company is not producing money. What must I do? I'll first tell you how does your company operate? Are you making sales with the way you are operating? No. We're not making so much money. So what do we do? We're in bundle. We're redesigned. Government can no longer fund. What can we do from inside? Oh, it's top down heavy. Government are opening more schools. More schools are being converted to universities. We are not funding what is on ground. We are converting schools to universities. We are taking a teacher college. We are converting to university. So the question is, the way we are designed, it's to top down heavy. Government cannot manage everything. So we need to start redesigning from there and saying the way we are structured, can it really work? So what should the proper structure be? So these are things people don't like to hear. But the schools have to find a way to begin to raise funds. Either by creating internal fund generating systems, begin to create research. Some schools are opening labs, business labs. Most of the vaccines you see that were used by COVID were created by universities. That income goes to university. So we need to unbundle and try to find solutions and ways that we can engage. So you're looking at schools winning themselves off government funding. I think we should find a way to do that. Wouldn't that affect the so-called common man, proverbial common man on the street? Some people will argue to death that Nigeria can afford free education or at least free tuition, like it is in Germany and some of the other oil producing countries. That Nigeria can afford it, even though the numbers are not too encouraging. They're really bleak in terms of whether we can afford to fund a budget we can't. But people feel the nation has no business asking students to pay for everything or the investors to be on their own. So that's got a welfare aspect of this as well. You know I spoke about weekend problems. But I want to ask, when the world is education free? Somebody's paying. Somebody's paying. You look at America, for instance. People are now campaigning on forgiving student loans. It's not a campaign point. If you put me in power, I'll forgive student loans because people pay loans. So there are many discussions in that poem. This question is, for instance, must everybody go to university? If you make early education solid, you make it beautiful. People can at least go from primary school to SS3. After SS3, let the person do what he wants to do. There's a lot of argument in that. But design says we must find a way to make it work for us. But why haven't we found a way with all of the resources that we have? Because I don't know if there's any country on individual that will wake up and say they have enough money. One boy sang a song and said Dangote himself is looking for money. Money will never be enough. My point here is money will never be enough for an individual or a country. I'm not even sure because you think that when you have an extra one million, then you think that one million is okay. You need an extra one million. You never get to that point. So I have never heard any country in the world that wakes up to say, we have what it takes to fund anything. And so I don't think that that's the issue because we have resources. But over time, if you look at how much we have managed it, some professor would say that we're an all-in-bear government. All-in-bear, you know the system already. You throw in money, you chunk it. But it's a party kind of government. Look at the cost of running government. Every time our budget, how much we are located to the expenditure. You talk about the capital project and the recurrent expenditure. So it's a thing. I think that if you are saying the privatization at 62 should be the solution to education sector. It would therefore widen the gap between the rich and the poor over time. And that's what it would be. Well, even only talking about the tertiary institution. We're not also looking at the secondary and the primary school. That's also a big issue. Why is it that at this point in time, Nigeria as a giant of Africa, we can't even say there's a free education across the board. We're talking about from primary to secondary level. Let's even achieve that first of all. And then we begin to think about tertiary what's important to go to by her institution. So let me give you an example. Are you aware that your primary schools have been monitored in Lagos for instance by the local government? That's one state out of. Are you aware that your primary school in Lagos has been managed by local government? I'm just trying to explain to you the power of a design. It's not just by local governments who say that they don't have access to their own funds. What funds are they using to develop the local primary schools? So this is my concept. This is what I talk about design a lot. If you give somebody four billionaire in a poorly structured system, you will not be able to account for how the financial flow takes place. Because we are blaming one side of the system, the stakeholders across the value chain must come together and ask themselves how do we want this thing to be structured? Go around Lagos and look at your primary schools or go around the state or your state. Look at the state of the primary schools. Those primary schools are constitutionally meant to be run by local governments. I will question you. What finances do local governments have to use to run the primary schools? So I'm not blaming and saying provision is the only way. I'm just trying to emphasize the power of design. We must look at how we are designed and ask ourselves, the way we are designed are we able to drive quality education with the way we are designed? I want us to look at the content of our curriculum because that's very important. The Mercy Act 654 has never worked in the country, it's not even worked at all. I remember one of my uncles who had installed some equipment that he imported. The thing was left to rot under the sun for years and it all went bad. But let's look at the content and the curriculum. The emphasis on a degree in some countries like in the German system where you have what you call the Ausbildung which is a sort of vocational training arrangement where you can leave your high school and go get trained in a skill. While you're being trained in that skill the government will give you a stipend you get paid, be it carpentry, be it welding, be it tailoring, be it nursing whatever you want to do and then encourage companies to employ. Everybody wants to have a degree in this country and you and I know that there will not be everybody where they speak English. Some people can't even express themselves in the university. Why is that? What's this? You talked about some state-owned polytechnics, government institutions teacher training colleges are being converted to universities. So the government can look good. It should be a virulent thing by the way. When did we get it wrong in terms of our pension for having a degree that isn't really producing skilled people? And to even add to that the government is also encouraging by creating more universities. You mentioned vocational institutions as well. So the government is also encouraging that attitude of saying we need to have more universities. The issue is government. Let me give you an example. Have you seen a job employment letter or adverts, minimum 22, university graduate, university graduate, university graduate. So most of the time this is not a different government. Of course, the government have their own issues. But as a people we must reorientate our mind. If I have a company and I make the criteria for employment not to own a university degree but you must have done case study, why? You must have a vocational level training, you must have this. You will force the system to adjust to the new realities. But if you keep demanding it parents keep saying oh no my child will not be a degree holder my child must go to university and have a BSA in you will keep having that kind of environment. So that's why when I talk about value chain I can't just isolate one person. We must have a total reorientation system. Now certain states in Nigeria for instance are beginning to up their vocational training schools. There is an abandoned technical college in major south-west states. Massive, carpentry and plumbing. Abandoned because people will not go there. They will even pay people to attack. Parents will say my child is a carpenter. No, my child must become a BSA. So it's more holistic than that. I think all of us must be involved in it. You must begin to pay attention to those who don't have BSA. You must begin to pay attention to those people who are mechanics for instance now. It's a slight on them. Oh what do you do? I'm a mechanic. Is that what you do? You mean you didn't go to school? So these things are also environmental. They are sociological. So I don't think we should just look at them from the angle of government. But the reason that would be is because if you look at it let's be realistic. We can't take the bulk of the issue or the blame. I mean this is not a blame game. What's saying that everyone is responsible. I don't know a system where you have feeding coming from. It comes from down to the top, the bottom to top. It's from top to down. That's how you should trickle down. And that's why it's in the constitution that the security and the welfare of the people should be the concern of government. We're saying that you've talked about design. Why can't we have a system? Up until now we have jam. There's going to be another jam, right? 2022 is almost over. So in 2023 I'm sure people would start preparing to write another jam in examinations when we know that the universities have been away for almost seven months plus counting. We're not even sure when the strike will be over. So why don't we re-look at the entire system? Look at what's working and what's not working. Because you're blaming the people who are putting criteria saying you need a BSE for a job and what have you because it's the system that has been channeled from the beginning from the top. Who creates the system? Of course. Who creates the system? Our constitution is a referendum. Our constitution is a referendum. No. We won't... I'm not sure we want to go there. We have to go. There's a lot to talk about. But we have to wrap it up right now. Uludaria Keenlaja CEO of OAR N.D Company He's a transformation strategist and that was really evident. There's a lot to unpack as fast and luxurious education is concerned. But thank you very much for your time. I think maybe it's good you didn't knock as soon. And move around safely. Because everybody is against the government. But I think it's good to balance and that's what you brought to this conversation. Thank you so much. And happy October 1. Thank you. Top next we have more. Right now, of course, we will take a break and we have something special to play for you in between. And when we return from our break we'll be having a discussion about elections in Nigeria, looking at the forthcoming elections and politics with our guest Femi Dagonro, Joe Femi Dagonro. We'll be back with us. Please stay.