 We are going to, if you can all see the agenda there, we've been collating that document of participant introduction since the beginning because there's some reviews going on there for what we might want to attend to as things progress. So we want to keep that as a live document, but we would like to restrict access just to the members. And so we'll talk a little bit later about how we might be restricting access, but just to let you know that we will keep that going and we might ask people to add to that if they haven't already, or if they want to keep that updated as they go. Our previous notes, we've got a link there for people who would like to go over those. I don't think many notes were taken last time, but meanwhile too, we have meeting notes documents for today's meeting. So I might just add a couple of things similarly. So in terms of participant introductions, when we originally had that, it was just for private. So if you want to have a look through it and just check if there is anything that you do not want in a public document, that would be good. If you don't have any objections, then that's fine. Thanks. The other one is in terms of notes, it'd be a really like us to encourage everyone to use that Google Sheet that Melanie's got and take notes as we go. So we've got that for us as well as those others who join us later on. Okay, so what should we shift on to the number two then? Well, we probably should introduce our two new chairs as well, Melanie. Oh, yes, so welcome to me. Oh, I did go over that one. A very big welcome to Adam here and to Andrew Whiting. Thanks so much for being interested in joining us and we're really happy to have you along. You're very welcome to say a few words. Hi, I guess. So thanks everyone. I hope I can be a good coach here. So I sort of represent, I guess, the geospatial industry at large and the open source geospatial community in Oceania. So yeah, thanks. And from me as well, thanks Adam and Andrew for agreeing to be a coach. It makes it a lot easier for me and you guys bring them a lot of experience which would be a great group. Okay, so second agenda item was really just a quick note that we've been drafting the terms of reference for this group. It's gone through a number of iterations at the last meeting we opened it up for comments because we did add a bit on adjusted a bit. There hasn't been all that many comments since so I just wanted to say that it's there if you want to have a look at it and comment but we might consider that to be the working terms of reference for this group for now. Melanie, do you want to take on to go on to agenda number three? Yeah, sure. So we've been collating a document about requirements if we wanted to have some sort of an online space. So everyone's welcome to add more to that as we go as to what we might require. Meanwhile, we are reminded that we have our ARDC community space. So we have a discovery entry point to be able to discover this interest group down in here. And then from this currently we're linking to Google documents. But we wanted to say to that we just put together recently some people that within ARDC have been putting together Google sites for community practice. And so we've got a few of us working on that sort of thing. So I've just put this one together as an example of what we might have. And because other people within ARDC working on what we can kind of troubleshoot if we're trying to do any specific things around access etc. So currently it's public and it's general information. It is though within this Google domain. So that's potentially an access problem for people. So we just want to hear in general what people think about having this site if we should continue or stop. And then within this community page is the idea that we would have a space that is only accessible to people within our community. And so far maybe the easiest way to do that is to have this Google group. So no one's been invited yet. It's just an idea of one at the moment. But if people want to continue with that then I will invite everyone and we can start to have some access. Because then it also means within this forum we can really start to have some conversations amongst ourselves or things that we want to do. So maybe just people let me know. Maybe I'll just presume it's okay. And then people say no or they have a preference for another sort of thing to do. We've talked in the past about Slack channels etc. And people would be interested in people's experience with those and whether they'd want to proceed. We just might grow and grow and I just want to be sure that doesn't matter how big we grow the channel will still be available to us. We won't necessarily have to pay so I'll be really interested in hearing people's perspective there too. So this is Julia. The Google site we hope to be a container for any outputs from this group that is agreed by the community to be valuable to other people. Potentially also this is where we will host a link to these recorded meetings. And there is an event or a calendar associated with this site. So we would be able to awareness raise any events associated with Geospatial that you think might be valuable. How those events might be agreed to be put on and administration is yet to be determined. But we're most interested in making sure that everybody could access this site from the outset. And then as more and more of these sites grow with various committees, as you'd imagine, there'd be a lot of overlap in information. So then hopefully we can start to talk about where things ought to be forward or future. So yeah, let me know via email or I mean until you're in the Google group or whatever we want to do. Yeah, we're just really interested in any other business we'd like to and I'll collect that for everybody. Would anyone like to mention anything before we move on to presentation? Yeah, I guess I can put in two cents from the community I've been working with and we have a pretty successful setup. I think with running meeting agendas and outputs from the community in Google Docs. We have a couple of a Slack channel and a couple of email lists that we use there. They're just like regular mailman lists that are hosted for us by OSTO, but they work. So it's a bit of a mixed bag, but we haven't yet found a better way. So I think, you know, heading to that same sort of pattern seems to be working well. Thank you. I think if I'm more mentioned about that at the moment, we can move on to the presentation. Melanie, do you want to talk about the Slack channel or how we want to do that once? That's all I really had to say about the Slack channel was I just didn't have much experience with it. I mean, if people found it useful and sound less than we could do for that. But only if it gave things that the Google group didn't give. Okay. If anyone's got any thoughts on that kind of offline chat needs then do let us know and we'll see what we can organize for that. Okay, we're running on good time. So we've got a couple of presentations and the first ones from Adam on the voice geo-oceanic community, which I think is a very interesting onto here. Adam, did you want to take a look? All right. So I'm assuming everyone can see the big map on the screen. So that's good. So I have 15 minutes to tell you about OSG Oceania, which is an organization that's been set up to support a regional Open Geospatial Community. And I had a look through the people attending and I think I'm preaching to the choir a little bit here because there's lots of people who already know about this stuff. So I hope you all learn something new and everyone else learns something new as well. So, oh, come on. There we go. Just by way of introduction, I run a little company at the moment and I do lots of things in it. Basically spend my time doing geo-spatial analysis for people using open source tooling. I'm also a board member of OSG Oceania and that's the capacity I'm speaking in today. And we aim to represent basically the entire Oceania community, not just us. So we've got a few different ways of saying hi at the top. So OSG Oceania is about supporting and promoting free and open source software for geo-spatial. So there's a bunch of icons here from various projects which you may or may not be familiar with. The next talk up should focus on this one project which actually supports dynamic data. It's an open source geodetic transformation toolkit. So Nick, if you're already here, that's this one for you to talk about if you want to. But all the other ones. So geo-node, I know a bunch of people use for cataloging data. Q-duce is a desktop geo-spatial analysis system. Open layers, leaflet and map server all deliver maps to the web. The open data queue is the big deal in Australia. We've got some significant government infrastructure running on it. Running on that open source toolkit, which in itself in turn depends on post use as a database and geo-spatial analytics toolkit and GDAL, the geo-spatial data abstraction library, which is a very large and diverse toolkit for operating on raster data. It's almost like magic once you get started playing with it and it's a lot of fun. That's basically what it is and it's all of these projects. You can just go and download them off the web and start using them. There's no license fee. There's no, you don't have to pay anyone a maintenance fee or anything like that. You can just go and take them. That doesn't mean that making things with open source toolkits is always free. You still need to pay people and you will probably still need to pay people for support, just like you do with any other software. But we really like that. You can just take these things and modify them, inspect them, reuse them, recycle them and do what you like. So this is predominantly a government research community that's here in the ARDC. So why would you use open source software in government and research? The first reason I can think of is if there's no licensing fees, you're not stuck to paying out a bunch of money every year and you don't have to hire a license manager, which is a big deal for me. I've gone through that wrangling a lot and I don't like it. It's secure. So if you're building critical infrastructure, you can have your security experts and penetration testers assist every single line of code and see where the bugs are. And fix them if they want. It's repeatable. This is what I do a lot for business. I build stuff for people and I give it all to them. They don't have to come back to me later and go, oh, I couldn't do the thing you did because I don't have the software. Here is all the stuff. If I write statistical tools, they can examine every part of it and go, well, yeah, we can reproduce everything there. We're given tests. Oops, sorry. I'll go back one. It's supported. So there is, for all of these tools, a global community working on them. So that means that it's not sort of one or two people in a company burning down some little rabbit holes fixing things. It means that a lot of people with many different viewpoints are working together collaboratively to address problems or make new features or do things that mean things to a really broad audience. So those are reasons I can think of that governments and researchers should support this community and start working with these tools. So I'm sure you can think of lots of others. And it really is a global community. So globally, there's the open source geospatial foundation, which has been running since 2006, I believe, which has a global conference every year called PhosphoG. And we've just basically set up a regional chapter of that here to support the local community because going to international conferences from Australia is quite hard. It costs a lot of money. It's really hard to get to. So we thought, well, let's bring it here. We've been up to. So there's also the OpenStreetMap foundation, which supports a really huge open mapping data project called OpenStreetMap, which we use a lot for things like navigation or just curiosity and seeing where things are or even network analysis and stuff like that. And that has a national conference, a global conference state of the map every year. Again, that's not always easy to get to. And finally, the Open Geospatial Consortium works with both of these groups looking at standards and how to pass data around. And the local community. So we discovered, and I think quite a few of you already know this, that there's quite an active regional and local community in Oceania using open source tooling. There's Meetups, Mapathons, all of the things here. Universities that have departments using and developing open source stuff. Government departments that rely on it. And people just getting stuff done. So QGIS in particular, there's a really strong local development community here. A couple of the core developers live in Queensland and are responsible for a lot of stuff that happens in that software package. We'll move on from there. So I think we sort of, in 2017, a bunch of people got together and thought, well, we want to build a, we want to support the community here. And a year later, a conference popped up. So it was the first joint FOSFORG in state of the map conference held in Oceania. We thought, oh, we'll get about 40 people and we'll get a bit of money. And we might break even and we partnered up with SSS, SSS is a triple SI for their underwriters. We sold the conference out long before we actually opened the doors. We generated a heap of sponsorship. And people came from all over the world. So it was based in Melbourne and most people did come from the eastern seaboard of Australia, but we had people from the Pacific Islands and Europe and the US and Hong Kong and Japan turn up to the conference. So it generated quite a lot of excitement. And we thought, well, we're probably like a long way too late for this. There's quite a big exciting community here. 2009, we held another event in Wellington. That was also sold out before the event took place. And again, drew quite a large audience from many different parts of the world. And some of those were, a lot of those were people that just turned up and wanted to come. Some of them we specifically called out for the conference. So we ran a travel grant program every year so we could get people from far away, Pacific Island specifically or remote communities in Australia or basically people who are not well represented in the community to turn up and come to the conference. So that's been quite successful. In 2019, we minted an organization. So OSDO Oceania exists now as a not-for-profit company limited by guarantee. It's governed by a board of directors that are all volunteers and it's basically dedicated to supporting this community as much as we can. So running the conference series, providing infrastructure for communications and talking about stuff and basically community building projects. And this year already sponsored a bunch of small scale mapping events mostly in Melbourne actually. We're looking at running a QGIS developers event in Queensland. And we were supporting a bunch of other small initiatives. One of them is a tree planting event for greenhouse gas mitigation for the 2019 conference. So we're basically doing a canopy coverage restoration project in Melbourne. We do a lot of stuff for a small band of volunteers. And going back away to the slide series about why this community matters for researchers in government, we're lucky to get involved as well. So this slide full of words is linked to different information resources. So the top link is just about us of the Oceania community. We don't have a proper website. So well, we've been busy doing all this other stuff. We haven't got to act together to go, well, we kind of need a website and some formal methods. The global OSGA website. Sorry, going back one, two. Yeah, how to get started in OSGA and then some resources for OpenStreetMap as well. So it can be a little bit bewildering. So people that are new to the community sort of hit all these, this wall of information and go, okay, that's great, but how do I actually get started? And that's what the next slide is all about. You can talk to us. So we've got a bunch of email lists there just for general discussion. And you can ask any kind of question that doesn't have to be a technical question or about how to do some sort of rigorous transformation in C++. You can just say, hey, I'm confused. How do I get started? Who is there to help me out? So we're generally a friendly bunch. And if there are people who are unfriendly, we remind them that we're meant to be friendly fairly often. So I should have mentioned that actually we do operate under a code of conduct. So that's the key part of our organization. We have a strong and enforced code of conduct that basically says be nice to people because it's just worth doing that. And the other way to get involved if you feel like you really want to is to become a member of the organization. So because we have a formal company limited by guarantee now you can become a member. Membership doesn't cost you anything. And the most onerous duty of a member is to vote on board elections. Every year we'll have a board election and basically the only requirement of membership is to vote in that. And if you want to help shape the organization, you need to be a member in order to be nominated to be a director. So yeah, that's basically we'd like lots more people to become members because we want a big and diverse bunch of voices to join in and help shape the organization. And we're right now just working through ways to get more members on board. So keep an eye on our OSDO discussion list and Twitter and there'll be more updates on that soon. And in 2020 we are running another conference. This time it's in Suvar in Fiji, which is a little island just to the right and below the exclamation mark there. So there's a basically locally led conference organizing committee. Most of the people there are from Fiji and working on their own iteration of the conference. So there's a bit of information coming out about that now, but that will ramp up soon and there will be a proper website and information on how to sponsor the conference, go along to the conference and help out with the local organizing committee soon. And that is the end of my bit of stuff I had to say. So if you have any questions or if there's time left for questions, feel free to ask. Thank you, Adam. That was really useful. We have a few minutes for questions. So is there any questions for them? I just noted a few in chat. I'll address those as we go on, but if no one has, feel free to chat direct or even email me directly privately because the group doesn't matter and I will respond to those as we progress through the rest of the meeting. Adam, there's one question on the chat. How do you join? How do we join? At the moment we don't. We had our first membership intake in November last year and at that point we were going to make a call for members and have people nominated every three months or so. But we've just upset our entire model and decided that we're going to just continually take membership applications. So you can just, there will be a way soon where you can just go to probably a Google form, put in your details, and then there's a membership working group that just has to take a bunch of boxes and then that's it. So we'll have more information coming out about that soon. And I'd be very happy to send this presentation to everybody here so they can grab the links and find their mailing list and everything else that they need to. So when we have the membership system formalised and ready to go, we will communicate that via Twitter and the discussion email list and in our MapTime Australia Slack channel. So I think ideally before March we'll have that sorted out and we'll be ready to start taking members again. Thanks, Adam. Yeah, if you could send it to Melanie that we can get it up on that website. Also just, Adam, I just noticed in that the 2020 conference was the dates, correct, it's November 2020? Yes. All right. It said November 2019 so I wasn't sure. Oops, sorry, it's November 2020. It's November 2020 is when that is interested. Thank you, Adam. All right, we might move on to our second presentation which is from Nick Brown on the GDA 2020. Okay, great. Yeah, thank you very much for the invitation to be here. Some of you I know, some of you I don't. So thanks to Melanie and Andrew Whiting for offering me the opportunity to come along today. We've only got about 15 minutes. So what I wanted to do is sort of take you through quite a high level overview of changes that are being made and upgrades to the Australian geospatial reference system. I'm the director of National Geodesy at Geoscience Australia and I'm also chair of the permanent committee on geodesy which is part of an organisation called ICSM, some of you may have heard of. So they're sort of the people from spatial and surveying sector around Australia and New Zealand. And we get together a few times a year and do a lot of work together given that spatial doesn't have boundaries. So we don't want them to have boundaries, that's for sure. So just to give you a bit of an overview as to what was the main reason we were looking at upgrading components of the reference system in Australia. The reality is it's because geodesy, positioning, spatial, they're no longer esoteric sciences, they're really mainstream. And we were looking at the growth markets in GNSS chipset sales and we noticed that the sort of traditional markets that we looked at at using GNSS and being involved in spatial and surveying were going to only make up about 10% of where all chipset sales. That's the hardware that allows you to position yourself. They're all going to end up in things like driverless cars and mobile phones over the next 10 years. So we needed to make sure that these new and emerging user bases could actually position themselves accurately and align their spatial data very accurately. So to do that we thought, well, we need to try and address what the users are going to want. And a big part of that was, as I mentioned, this new and emerging user base. So to go with that, we're actually going to have the technology in Australia within a few years' time thanks to the Positioning Australia program. It's a $225 million program that's going to be providing at least 10 centimetre accurate positioning to everybody in their mobile devices and probably the devices you're already using now once it's switched on. So this gives you a bit of an idea of how it all fits together. You can have the satellite sending data down to the GNSS stations on the ground. From that we produce corrections and services that can either be delivered via the internet to all these user groups. Or if you're in an area where you haven't got mobile phone coverage and you can't get it over the internet, there'll be what we call a correction service which will be delivered from space. So you'll always be able to get that 10 centimetre accurate positioning throughout Australia and the maritime jurisdiction. So it's a bit of a game changer in terms of positional accuracy that we've had in Australia. So to make sure people could capitalise on that, we've gone through and refreshed and upgraded the reference system for Australia. And if you have a look at the bottom, you'll see maybe the data you're traditionally used to working with which are around the geocentric data of Australia in 1994. And then up towards the top we show GDA 2020 which is our new static reference system for Australia. And we've developed the transformation grids and services to allow you to get between them. And then as you look to the left, you can see that if you don't want to work in a static reference frame, you can actually work in a kinematic one where the coordinates of features will change with time. And that's called the Australian Terrestrial Reference Frame 2014. And it's referred to 2014 because it's very, very closely aligned with ITRF. You'll effectively get the same solution. And they're linked by this plate motion model. And I'll describe a little bit more about that in a minute. On the right-hand side, you can see that we've also introduced a new vertical working surface. So some of you would be used to using AHD or AusGeoid models to get to AHD. The AusGeoid model has a gravity component and gravimetric component and also a geometric component. And the geometric component takes the gravity model and then deals with some of the bias and distortion associated with AHD and the levelling that was done to create AHD. We sort of strip all that away and we just work purely off the gravity model. And that's really what AVWS is. So what was the main driver for moving away from GDA 94, for example? A lot of people were suggesting, well, to avoid any confusion, couldn't we just... Can't we deal with the fact that we're lucky and we've got this Australian plate that's moving 7 centimetres a year. It's largely in the same direction. Can't we just deal with that sort of 1.5 to 1.8 metre offset and provide a really simple model to allow people to align themselves with GNSS? Because otherwise, they're going to notice that 1.8 metre offset. The reality is that that's only one part of the story. There's also this distortion component. So if you zoom into these areas of New South Wales and you compare a GPS position that you get today relative to the position that you would have got in... Let me try and explain this another way. If you go out to a survey mark today and you look at the GDA 94 coordinate and then you take out the plate motion, which is that 1.8 metres across Australia, you still end up with these distortions that you see on the right-hand side. And they're largely due to the way that GDA 94 was developed. We didn't propagate all the uncertainty through the mathematical solution, so you end up with these strange distortions in the network. So even if you account for the plate motion, you still get left with this distortion of about half a metre in some areas. So users would still see that half a metre if they were trying to position themselves today with GPS and we accounted for the plate motion. So we needed something to clean it up and provide a better, more accurate datum for Australia because if you're getting 10 centimetres in your mobile phone and you're getting half a metre distortions in your datum, the positioning service you're providing is pretty useless. So we don't need to get into the technicalities of the legal system, but you can see up in the top left what we actually did was change what we call the recognised value standard measurement position. So this redefined what the datum was in Australia. And we have a lot of Earth Centre coordinates. Importantly here you can see that we actually gazetted the coordinate uncertainties and the velocities and the velocity uncertainties when we went to the government and said we want to change what the datum is. So what this actually allows us to do is say that GDA 2020 can be used as the static datum and it's legal. We can also say that if you want to work in a time-dependent reference frame you can work in ATRF because we have got in here in the determination what the velocities are. So you can map coordinates back and forward through time. And so both of those datums are actually legally traceable as of now. We'll now touch on... So this gives you sort of an indication of who we think are going to be these new and emerging users of precise positioning. You think about people who are going to want to take advantage of three to ten centimetre accurate positioning. They're going to want to operate in a time-dependent reference frame because they're getting coordinates from GNSS in a time-dependent reference frame and they needed a reference frame that was going to support them. So that's really what ATRF 2014 is designed to do. So here's an example of maybe one of you trying to break your Strava record, riding on your bike. You're actually getting your information in things like Strava and location-based apps in ATRF. And ATRF can be considered to be almost identical to that. The main reason that we introduced ATRF instead of just using ATRF as it is is around that legal determination. We could always go back and be able to legally define what an ATRF coordinate is because it's based off a denser set of data within Australia. That's really the only difference between ATRF and ATRF. Here's the example of the plate motion model. So if you're trying to propagate from GDA 2020 to ATRF 2014, we've actually published what these values are. It's what you'd normally use for a 14-perimeter transformation, but it's only got three numbers in it and it just deals with the rotation of the Australian plate. So we're very lucky in Australia because we don't have to deal with some of the bigger distortion and deformation grids that they do in places like New Zealand. But we are looking into how we could potentially bring things like deformation grids into the future. This is just a bit of a diagram that sort of explains that. You can see down the bottom, GDA 2020, and with time, you'll see that there's no change in the y-axis. So there's no change in position. Whereas with ATRF coordinates, they're going to move with the Australian plate at about seven centimetres a year. Finally, the thing that I wanted to briefly introduce you to was the new vertical working surface, the Australian vertical working surface. The reason that we've released this new vertical working surface is in recognition of the fact that users are going to have that 10-centimetre accurate positioning capability in their hands. But we needed a datum that was going to be better than the quality they were getting from their GNSS. You can't make decisions about something if your datum is not accurate enough. And as I'll show you in a couple of slides, the Australian height datum we've been using, to interact with that with GNSS, you need to use the OZGoid model. And the OZGoid model has uncertainties that blow out to about 13 centimetres in different areas. So that means when you're trying to work with a physical height datum, it's very limiting for things like irrigation, major road development. We've had plenty of examples where people can't or they've had to go back and retrofit roads because the way that they were developed, they were trying to fit everything to AHD and water is actually flowing in the wrong direction. So they're getting a lot of problems in having to rebuild roads. It's costing millions of dollars. And it's largely based around poor quality AHD coordinates. So we're currently using the Australian height datum throughout most of Australia, but it's almost a 50-year-old datum. It was based off tide gauges around the Australian mainland and TASI, which was done a bit later on. And then they leveled from those tide gauges after setting them at zero, leveled inland, and then tried to work out how to do an adjustment where you're trying to fit all this data together. The reality is it's very good over areas of about less than 10 kilometers, which is great for applications like cadastral surveying, but it's not so great for people who are doing things like large-scale LiDAR projects where they can't tell anymore is, as I say down the bottom here, is the error in the data or is in my datum? We actually did a user requirements study and that was a common thing that we heard back. When I'm working over large areas, I can't tell if these jumps and distortions in the data set I'm looking at are actually caused by the data or the datum. So here's a bit of an uncertainty map that shows you where it's good and bad throughout Australia. If you're using GNSS to convert to HD, you're looking at about 8 to 13 centimeters in terms of accuracy, which good for some, not so good for others. So what we have done is tried to provide the vertical working surface, which is going to better suit some people are doing large-scale LiDAR, remote sensing type work, environmental monitoring. We're in discussions at the moment about potentially using this as the datum for things like the Snowy Hydro project, which is working over a very large area, or for water monitoring and modelling throughout things like bar and water or the Murray-Darling Basin. Importantly, it also works seamlessly on shore and offshore, which is something that we haven't traditionally had. So we're working closely with the Hydrographic Office as well about the potential for them to be using this in some of their modelling. This gives you an indication of the difference in the quality or the accuracy of what you'd get if you're working from ellipsoidal heights to HD using Osgeoid 2020. You're looking at 8 to 13 centimeters, but as soon as you strip out some of that bias and distortion associated with Osgeoid and you just use the gravimetric component from the Australian Vertical Working Surface, you can see that it brings down the uncertainty down to about 1 to 8 centimeters. And we're doing some airborne gravity surveys. You might see some hotspots there over Victoria, for example. We're going to do some airborne gravity using state government funding over the next 12 months. And our simulations show that we'll get down to about 1 to 2 centimeters of accuracy, which is phenomenal, and really open up a whole range of new applications when it's combined with precise positioning from the Positioning Australia program. This is just a useful diagram I like to have in slides so people can come back to and reflect on it. It just shows here that when you use Osgeoid and when you use AVWS, what you're actually referring to. And also to note the height difference between GDA94 and GDA2020 coordinates means that you need to use the model to fit the right datum. The difference in the two height systems there of... Sorry, in the two datums in terms of height is actually because we've got an improved realization of the shape of the Earth. So we used ITRF9992 when we defined GDA94 and with GDA2020 we used ITRF2020 and that actually changed the size and shape of the reference frame that we use which causes a nine centimeter change in height. So something to be conscious of when you're comparing datasets. The last thing I wanted to touch on was just the work that we're trying to do with the EPSG and standards community to make sure that they can access and use a lot of these changes. This just gives you an indication of the things that have gone into date and we're also still undertaking some work with them in discussions on things like WGG84 to try and alleviate some confusion about that. It's very much treated as a static datum in standards but there needs to be growing recognition that it's actually a dynamic datum and it's moving much in the same way that ITRF is. So I'm very, very, very conscious that I've just thrown a heck of a lot of information to you in a very short amount of time but I would point you to that top link, icsm.gov.au. I did a series of four webinars which covered all of that across about three hours last year and so there's four webinars that break all those bits down and provide a lot more information and context. So feel free to go and have a look at that link and those webinars. They're all still up and free and available. The PowerPoints are there as well. If you want to use it, please feel free and my contact details are there. I'm more than happy to help out with people who are going through this transition or to explain things in more detail. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you, Nick. That was very useful and interesting to see all the work that's happening there. Is there any questions for Nick? Nick, can you share that slide with the different datums and the effects or is this the one you're talking about, Simon? No, the diagram with that one. That one? Yep. Or are you sharing the whole presentation with the attendees here? I can, yeah. So I can circulate it to the mailing list if you want. Yes, please. Do we have a site where we can dump documents, Kieran? Yeah, I think we'll be getting it on that Google site Melanie was talking about. Nick, if you can send it to Melanie then we can organise that to go up there. I wanted to add there too. So meanwhile in the IPSM metadata working group, there's a work in parallel to talk about the metadata side of this as well. But if there's anyone here who'd like to mention more firing, for example. I'm sorry, Melanie, I couldn't quite hear you, but you're asking for some input on what's happening on the metadata front. It was about this particular datum and the work that we, the discussions began in our last face-to-face, but I haven't been very close to it. Yes. So the metadata standard has 115-3, 191-15-3 is in the process of being updated to support the issues of the dynamic data and the changing values there. So what is needed is a date on the data that indicates at what point the, say, the GPS values were captured or whatever the reference frame that you're capturing the information to when it was captured so that when you put it against the historical data, you can do the proper adjustments because the GPS values are continually adjusting. They aren't static, of course, as the plates move. So we've modified it a bit, kind of a minimal approach to get what will capture the information going forward. The process is going through ISO, PC211, to get that approved. But I think it's going pretty smoothly. I have some minor concerns with it, but it works and probably as good as we can get. The main concerns I have are that it's slightly different than the ISO 191-111, which is all about the geodesy and datums and such going on and how you define them. That's where these dynamic datums were first defined. There's a slight difference between how it's captured and how you would actually use this stuff is going to be the next step, I guess, is really the problem. Because what's happened in 115 is kind of a mixture between the old 115 and 111. So yeah, there are some issues we'll have to get through but it's kind of just a peatting problem. We'll be able to capture the datums, the epochs for the datums, and be able to make sure our stuff will align as well as possible. Yeah, Byron, I got an email from Joel Hasdike and from Roger. I think at Roger a lot yesterday. And I think they're now pushing to take the wording from 111 as you mentioned and using that in 115. So I think everyone's on board with that now. That would be good. Yeah, yeah, it's getting closer. It's just some kind of issues. One of the issues related to that is that the dependencies reference 111 and not 115. And some, which is kind of confusing when you're actually implementing a model, but that's what can you do sort of issue about it. They are pulling over the parts that allow you to do that. Yeah. But yeah, there's still some legacy issues on it, but it's going to happen regardless. Yeah, it's really a matter of coming up with the best practices going forward. Thanks, Byron. So we can keep the group informed with updates. Right. Okay. Well, thank you. So thank you, Nick, again. We might move on to the next last agenda item, I guess, in there. So Melanie, did you want to... Sure thing. So we're keeping track within that link there. We're keeping track of presentations, discussions, et cetera. So that, and we'll put that up on the website too, so that we can keep the presentation slides available for people to look back at in the future. But also we have the recording too. So this is our central place for keeping track too of things that we want to have in the future, and everyone's welcome to add to that. The next item was... So, Kieran, would you like to talk a further idea, Plenary 18th to 20th of March? I'm not going to be there, but maybe someone who's going to be there might talk about whether that's potential for a pace that we could be pushing with useful workshops that we're trying to give. Melanie, you're fading in the audio a bit. But I think you're talking about the next meeting. So the C3DIS and RDA conferences are happening in March. They didn't march to the 20th that week. I just wanted to pose to the group whether we wanted to organize a face-to-face sort of meeting because there might be a number of us in Melbourne at the same time. So given that we've got a large number of people here, if you want to just put your thoughts on the meeting notes, that'll work. But very quickly, is that something that people would like to see, to have a face-to-face or try and organize something? I think it could be valuable. And one of the things that we did at e-research, which seemed to be a bit of a pop-up, was just to say, hey, we're going to be here at the Oran site. And if people want to come along, I think we did it at a lunchtime and it was quite valuable. We got some good input. So that might be an approach, rather than trying to formally coordinate something. You mean the Oran booth, do you? The Oran booth. Yeah, at e-research. I'm not sure if Oran's having a booth at Research Data Alliance, but we'll find somewhere. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. If there are any other thoughts, let me know or Melanie, or you can put it up on the meeting notes and we'll start to look at that. But I think that's the main bit for the agenda. Is there anything else anybody wants to mention before we wrap up? Just to please input into that document anything that you would like to either hear or present or even any events that you're aware of that are coming up this year that we can circulate to the broader group. I'll email an invitation to everyone to join the Google group and then I can start to put some comments in there too and if you add comments there about things that you might want then we can end up putting in a few documents around and we'll help you with that too. Alright, thank you everybody. It's spot on time. I hope it was a useful session for everyone and look forward to meeting you guys at the next one. If you've got any comments or thoughts feel free to email me or Melanie or any of the other chairs. Thank you all, bye. Thank you. Thanks, thank you. Thank you.