 Greetings, everyone. Thank you so much for coming today, and I'm really excited to have both Eileen and Emily here from Colorado College, mostly because I myself almost went to Colorado College, and both my parents graduated from there. So Colorado College is kind of near and dear in my heart, and I'm kind of sad that I didn't go, especially now that it's such a cool interesting school to go to. So I'm really interested to hear about things at Colorado College. And so, yeah, let's hear a little bit about who you are, and what your role is at Colorado College. Eileen, do you want to start? Hi, everyone. I'm happy to start. Eileen Lowe, Assistant Professor of English as Franny was saying, and thanks everyone for attending and for your questions later on, and for the invitation to talk about hypothesis. I am new to the CC community, but before this I was on the tenure track and teaching at Allegheny College, which is very similar in small liberal arts college. Emily and I are actually teaching similar classes, right, so we'll be talking a lot about this first year writing course that that is new to CC as well. And I think that's, I mean, I'm so I'm my discipline is 20th century American literature. Great, and that's not so great to hear I love. I love 20th century American literature. We can talk about that too maybe Emily, can you kind of give us an idea of yourself and what you do at Colorado College. Definitely. So I've been at Colorado colleges faculty since 2004 so it's been a while. I'm a social psychologist so I teach primarily courses in psychology, ranging from research design to specialized seminars at the 400 level on social cognition and, and, and stereotyping and and integrate relations and such. Of course you know it's a liberal arts environment so we all teach contribute to the genet curriculum. So I also teach you know introductory level courses and in writing and cultural psychology. And I'm, as you mentioned right I direct the bridge scholars program so that's our program for our first gen students from and students from minority and minoritized backgrounds. And it's a, you know they come early and get get a class and start with leadership training and other student life opportunities. So, so I actually, in a back to the topic of being here talking about hypothesis I've used this tool since late spring when we all made the pivot to remote teaching, and have used it, you know, all the way from, you know, the, the introductory level class to the 400 level class. And, and yes I'm looking forward to discussing how it works in the different contexts. Great, that's, that's all really interesting I'm, I'm really interested in your field because I feel like I know less about it Emily, having read some 20th century American fiction. And I at least know, I at least know what I mean is talking about a little bit. So, maybe talk about that a little bit more as we get into it. Um, so we organize the theme for today's discussion around this idea of college success in the sense that, you know, when students enter college they're not always necessarily prepared to succeed at, at the world of college. And I know Colorado college is a little bit different than other schools and so it might be helpful if one of you would explain a little bit about how Colorado colleges may be different than a typical institution in some ways. I'll take this one. I've been around for longer. So, Colorado college in the way that is very similar to, you know, other liberal arts colleges that you know very very student centric, very learning centric right that we do expect students to, to find the connections and through either, you know, by their own design or working with advisors. There's a connection between courses that, for example, right now we are all in a pandemic right is COVID. You can't just have molecular biology, you need molecular biology, you need your organic chemistry, and you also need your math, and you also need your ethics, and you also need your political science so you actually need all of it, you need to dig into history. And then you need to think about gender and ethnic studies right that all comes together and I think what we truly deeply believe in, in this liberal arts environment is that let's help students make those connections and one thing that so that is similar a lot of with a lot of institutions that have liberal learning as its heart. But what makes us different is that we have the block plan. So block plan, to those of you who haven't heard it before is one class at a time that's the best way to put it is one class at a time so we have three and a half weeks, we meet every day. We don't just meet for a short 90 minute period we essentially have the whole day most people meet for about two and a half to three hours at least they might come back in the afternoon for lab or watch a movie. Continue discussion but it's 18 and a half uninterrupted days without other obligations and you finish the equivalent of a four semester hour class. And so that allows us to really get into intensive learning right so you don't need a week, a weekend and a half to warm up. We have half a day to warm up. And then by the night of the first day you might already have you know 80 pages to read and for new papers by the middle of the second week your first paper maybe do. And so that intensity is very unique for us. And actually I'm aware that a number of schools out there maybe some of you participants. I know your schools might have thought about how to convert to the block plan during the pandemic, because folks feel that you know if we can't get people together to learn for September and October what if we do two blocks of remote learning and then if November works out they can come back for a month right so actually I know more, more folks are thinking about how to condense teaching into the block plan. So that's what makes us, you know a little bit different. Thanks for that description yeah that's that's really great stuff. I have a long thought that that kind of, you know the intensity of the block plan could really, can really be advantageous in some situations. I mean I did sometimes find weird connections between the different classes that I was taking at the same time and they would connect, but I always felt like that was something I brought to it it was something the institution was doing. And so the fact that you have these interdisciplinary intensive intensive classes really, really seems compelling to me. So, you know, maybe to kick this off, since we have this organizing idea of student success and I know that, you know, in a, you know, say traditional college context, you know often college success or student success is like an actual course that they take often when they first enter the institution and it might be like a, you know, a one credit course or something like that and tries to give them, you know an idea of an understanding of how the institution works and some study skills and maybe some life skills, like a kind of collection of stuff to help them succeed as students. And I'm just going to guess that maybe the way that you think about college success and student success at Colorado colleges maybe a little bit different than that but I'm not sure. Aline, maybe you'd like to start off by talking about how you guys think about college success at Colorado college. That's a great question and I think especially for this class that Emily and I are both teaching right now that's really key. Right. And one thing that, well, I'll just say largely the one thing that I really attracted me to teaching at CC was this like, this ability to do really intense and the ability to have sort of a freer schedule right and so I feel like with student success here we're really thinking about the ways that they're also interacting with the community and thinking about how they can go out there and do things and how we can take advantage of the place that we live in as part of our teaching tools. And so when we, I think when we think about student success, it's not just about like in the classroom right we're also really thinking about the different communities that they're participating in and the different ideas that they're bringing in. But, but I think for the 120s right it's where we're beginning we so the first block is them thinking critically right getting them to think about how to engage and to participate. And then the second block that Emily and I are both teaching is a little bit more focused on writing. And so, even in the way that we sort of broken that up right it's about like scaffolding and building and then being able to make these connections as you both were saying earlier so I think success is really to help students understand like sort of the next level of thinking that they should be doing here right and really trying to get them to become critical thinkers which which is hard because I think that that we do this a lot in our work but we don't always talk about it very explicitly. And I think at CC we're really trying to scaffold that and to see how we begin to to create that kind of student and learner and person. That makes sense. Did you want to add anything to that Emily. Yeah, and actually, you know, realize maybe the audience would not be familiar with what we what we are the course that we're not co teaching with teaching at the same time so as a part of our first year curriculum right all first years. Take these two units back to back. And in this second unit is really as a link talked about focus on writing, but it's also talking deeper into writing about. How do you write in your disciplinary style, but also to talk about how writing in your discipline and in your own writing but also in reading other scholars writing privileges and advances, some topics and some voices and disadvantage others right so it does have an equity and inclusion lens, even in the writing process. And so, so that you know when you talk about what is student success I think for students to, to, to begin to see knowledge as a part of that culture of knowledge construction that their voices are celebrated and that their voices that might have been marginalized and how do they navigate that beyond just a convention self okay do I use MLA or do I use Chicago do I do a PA right that's a deeper dive into the reading and writing that we want to get them started the first block that wow actually every single class I go into in some sense have that hidden dynamic the hidden curriculum of who's doing the speaking, who are we speaking for. So that's exciting to to introduce you into this goal. I think it's a great point to like to take disciplinary writing beyond beyond just like what format the footnote should be. There's other things that we could talk about that are probably more interesting than what style your foot that should be in. So, I'm really curious now because, and maybe to bring social annotation in this little bit because I think a lot of us think of annotation really as a kind of exercise in reading, and this, this phrase came up just, I think it was yesterday wow it seems like a million years ago. That's covered time for you. Where somebody brought up the idea of formative reading, the idea of reading as a kind of preparation for later reading and and reading as a preparation for writing. And so I'm kind of curious how you guys think about annotation as a as a tool that's really oriented around reading. And then how that then pivots into the idea of writing, because it sounds like the course that you're focused on here is really a lot about writing. And so can you connect that idea for me about how reading moves to writing with annotation. I don't know who's who should I actually think this is one of the things that I really wanted to talk about and I think one of things that hypothesis really allows me to do. I really want students to understand that that reading is both a practice and also a way of building community. And then when we read these texts, right, I make them really talk about both content right because I think it is important to understand but also form, which gets us to think about what Emily was saying about knowledge construction right like, who is the audience what what voices are they doing what kind of research are they doing what are the limitations of that of that research right. You can only like what's in the archive right like not everybody's diaries are collected and not everybody was taught how to read and right. And so it really is about understanding the link between reading as a practice right like looking for all of these things when you're reading and then and then finding your voice in that right and really being able to be part of this conversation so I think this is the beginning of a conversation right you're you're starting to understand where someone is coming from. And then as you're doing that you're developing your own ideas and your own ways of thinking and then you start formulating your own actual words right and articulating your thoughts and so what one thing that I've loved about hypothesis is you can see how the community is building right like you can see students responding to a text and you can see them responding to each other and then you know you can see them coming back and answering a question that they pose themselves earlier, but then also they're pulling in like definitions from the internet right and and then putting in videos that might be that connect right and so you're really beginning to see that each of us comes into reading with a different position right. And from there we begin to find our voice right and find a way to take what we're reading and doing something with it right so it's not this passive activity it really is very active. And I think hypothesis makes that like very visible for us. That's really great and Emily Madson looks like you want to add something onto that. If you want to move on weekend. No, no, no, please. No, you were asking about how does the the annotation go into writing right so I was thinking about the more technical style writing for psychology paper. So how do we, how do we help students go from reading to writing so not many of us who teach sometimes wonder oh okay you've read 20 papers this semester. Just go and now write a literature review in the similar style, but yet it's easy for us who are immersed in the field right who are experts to say that but for novices right people who are just starting to be in the field in their first years or whether they're juniors. They don't see that hidden code of how it's written so in one of the things we do in my classes for hypothesis annotations is we use a hashtag that says hashtag deconstruct on the bottom for your and then and and when I'm some so I would regularly in a paper that will write look here is the end of the introduction where you see that the author has now summarized their predictions and laid out the two hypothesis right and after I say that then I'll say hashtag deconstruct right in the later part I might say that I did you see that the authors mentioned this really complex procedure of alpha crumbax alpha reliability analysis note that they actually don't write a whole paragraph is just in one in four letters is done hashtag deconstruct right so instead of me needing to remind them in a lecture. It is delivered just in time right so they're reading there, and then they see it and then I could then make a note that remember this when you'll be writing your paper. This is a feature you want to note. So I think that definitely makes a connection between the reading to a few weeks later when they need to start to write. That's a really interesting example actually that did kind of go where I wanted to go next was to actually just some of the more kind of practical things like so. Maybe and I hear from both me Emily first. So you already gave us a description of one of the ways that you use hypothesis really specifically with this hashtag deconstruct, which sounds really great. Can you talk a little bit about some of the ways that you kind of use hypothesis or assign hypothesis readings or assign annotation in your course and then even things about like, do you grade them or how do you like encourage participation or maybe you don't need to I don't know just like how is it how's like the practical aspects of it. So you ended with grading so let me start with that I do a completion grade so I did I do tell them that I need you to put in. Depends on the course right let's say six annotations I substantive annotations not the. Yeah, that's cool right that doesn't count I did describe in the explanation in the syllabus assignment section that yeah that cool doesn't count as one but anything substantive including asking a question. Relating it to a previous class I give them a list of ideas for what they could say that is considered substantive, but what I find is that students. Most of them go beyond right after after the initial few annotations they go beyond because they enter into a dialogue with each other and so they just chime in and loose count. So the grading is really a small part on just a completion grade, but one example of how I use it is. I use it to encourage students to engage in more more so difficult. Some people say courageous sustained conversation about about identity and inequality because as a psychologist like some of the papers that we read relate to racial gender identities and also discrimination and prejudices. And so it's a site class so sometimes the way we talk about it is quite technical. So I thought in in the in the online annotation is when people can combine the annotation with some of the personal experiences right so after somebody say paper that we recently read on identity information right different ways that identity forms and different stages that people can be in. I would ask questions like, you know, does this relate to examples that you have observed, you know, these are first year so I say in your high school experience, right and people will chime in and talk about. So this is what I observe and it relates to that principle right so they bring the key words back in. And I find that because it is asynchronous more students have the time to think about what they want to share how they want to share it and they end up sharing and we do a similar conversation in the classroom right when you have 10 minutes and you need to I on the spot decide okay do I talk about what happened to me or what I saw in in 11th grade. While listening to other people right so so the asynchronous nature actually allows students to be more reflective and be comfortable choosing what they want to share. And the format that they want to share because they can choose a word is not spoken so that's definitely one place where I think that we build that learning community, but also that intimacy because we can share and relate to our personal experience in a very safe way I think. That's really interesting and Emily is Colorado College on all remote right now or do you have a space. We have some face to face we have some face to face but courses that are face to face more likely more likely to be the lab based class or the studio based classes. The otherwise the writing focus classes tend to be remote right now. Okay, and how about you, I mean, do you want to talk a little bit more specifically about the ways that you bring annotation into your courses. And also, because this class is a writing course right I think I used hypothesis differently than I would in a literature course so I might talk about that too but, but all of our readings are PDFs all of our readings are, you know, through our LMS systems right which hypothesis is embedded in which is really helpful and really Erin and her team were great about converting any of my PDFs that were older and to like to be hypothesis friendly which was great that I didn't have to do that because we're all at home so like I don't have a beautiful scanner to do all of this work for me. So all of the readings are our PDFs on canvas and through hypothesis and I didn't want to have lots of different questions for every new assignment that we were reading and so we've had one set of questions for all of the readings. And they really focus on content and then also really focus on form so we begin with these questions like, what's the genre right like what am I even reading here and, and what I like about hypothesis that you can pinpoint those moments where it clicks for the students right so the question is you know what's the genre and then, and then you know, following that is where where where was this obvious for you in the text. And so I love the idea of the hashtags normally I didn't do that, but I want to adopt that right where. So I can see in the text exactly where they thought okay this is where the genre was clear for me this is where the audience was clear for me this is where the tone was really evident. And then yeah we get to the more complex questions about about content like what's, and I like to ask a question of like what drew you into the text because I think that's really important for students is, I get to see what's interesting for them and, and the thing that I want to is that I hear from all of them. I mean, I, I assigned it as a part of our participation grade so it's a separate grade, but it really like Emily was saying is about completion and, and I really, I mean this is what's remarkable about CC students is like you don't have to really police, you know. They bring in such interesting things right and I think I always come back in and say like, this is great, you know, because I want them to really see that, that what they're contributing is, is wonderful as I think, especially as first year students the they feel like, oh my idea doesn't matter right or like my reaction is is kind of silly or dominant and really it's not there they're bringing in so many brilliant things and I love to see the ways that they're connecting with other texts that we're reading, even though we're reading very broadly right we're reading from lots of different disciplines like we begin to really see how language is shaped by scholarship. And we've been able to sort of hone in definitions of certain terms that we've that have like that have been have been threading through all of our readings so yeah it's like a basic reading questionnaire that they turn to they don't answer all the questions always right but I also don't think I think that as long as they're thinking about it that's what's important to me. As you're talking having taught a little bit myself I'm realizing that it, it almost sounds like the annotation process has made you as a teacher, kind of more differently involved in the reading to and this the way the students are reading would you say that's true. Yeah totally I think that my teaching is a lot more focused like I can see what they are having either trouble with or what they're really clinging to what's really interesting to them and, and you know, I think that's also like a, it's a sign of how much material is coming across during sort of lecture or discussion right because you can see that all of them are attuned to this word right like we read his text and it was talking about like fetish and fetishization and then that term has like just come up again and again and again and all of our in all of the their annotations and I'm like okay great like this was a term that clicked for them right. I think that it's it's made my teaching yeah a lot more intentional a lot more focus and, and I think also it's just more participatory right like again like I said you can you hear from all of them. And in a normal class where we're just kind of reading things together or reading things on their own like I don't, I don't always hear from all of them and also one thing that that clicked for me when I was using hypothesis to was like I've always wanted to sort of be in their head whether they're reading and I think Emily is the term real time right and actually we can do that now right like I can actually see exactly where something like a matter to them. So I love that part about it that I think that definitely makes me a better teacher. That's really interesting I mean I love this idea where I mean I think, especially in the educational technology world. Everything so focused on, you know, making the students do this and making the students do that or whatever and we don't always think about how it then in turn kind of might change what happens to teachers and teaching right. It's really, really interesting to think about Emily did you have thoughts on that as well that will like how it's affected you as a teacher. Very similar to alien right that we, I get to hear from every one of them. And in addition to you know just understanding how they're learning I found that it helped me differentiate my classroom right I mean again you know at any classroom whether it is as Karen asked on on the chat how many students are now classes at Colorado College is typically up to 25 so it's a small class. And I know that you know, obviously with before when I was at University of Michigan right that the class size is a lot bigger. But, but, but at any size, one of the challenges I always had is how do I differentiate even though it's a, it's a course I know what level it is. Some students would just come with more more more preparation or more knowledge from other courses, and some would be novices in this and I, and hypothesis by looking at their comments and the annotation really helped me know, you know, week to week where they are what they have what are gaps, and I can adapt therefore my synchronous teaching to what they do in a way that you know pre pre pre covid in a regular classroom I have no insights to that I tried to you know in the classroom gauge based on what they say or don't say, figure out what they don't know and don't know. And this actually allows me before the synchronous class to now know that, huh, I think you know there were a lot of questions about the correlation coefficient. I will now spend an extra 10 minutes on reviewing that concept with people in a way that previously I would just guess. So I think differentiation is definitely an outcome from it and I think it is a very inclusive teaching practice, you know, given the diversity of how students, you know, have gone through the educational trajectory, what they what what classes they took and and the the experience so yeah, I use it for differentiation that change how I teach. It's really interesting yeah I've heard this idea of instructors seeing annotations before lectures and then having that influence their lecture like you just mentioned Emily. You know I've seen a couple of questions pop up in the chat now on one thing I saw this is not really a question more of a comment really but no. David buck who's here and I know that he tweets pretty extensively about the idea of ungrading and different different kind of grading schemas. He mentioned like the labor based model and so forth. And I'm wondering have you guys experimented at all with ungrading I mean I think Colorado College as you already kind of mentioned is maybe a somewhat unique context in the sense that the students are maybe different there than they might be at some other kinds of institutions like University of Michigan. Their classes are bigger for one thing. But have you guys thought about or experimented at all with any of the kind of ungrading movement. If you know what I'm talking about. I personally haven't incorporated that yet, but I do know an econ colleague who is trying to do that so I need to learn, learn, learn more from her. It's great that that it would start an economics that seems like the least likely place. How about you Ali. I haven't done it. I'm one of those people who's still a little too scared to let go of that. But but that would be a really interesting thing to think of through especially using this platform right. Yeah, I could see some connections there but Yeah, I haven't I haven't yet. I wish. David put in a, and you might put in some more links to David David mentions that there's a hashtag on Twitter ungrading slow chat, which is where I think I've come across some of David's comments on that's pretty interesting about it and it's mostly educators talking about how to do it and how to get less scared and the different practices and stuff. Thanks for bringing that up David. I'm also seeing this question from Donald about hashtag management, which is a way more practical, like lower level thing really but um, do you, and maybe this is really more for Emily because of her more extensive use of hashtags but do you find Emily that you have difficulty in like the number of hashtags that start to get spawned and, or how do you manage that. Not really. I think people have been polite and judicious and use of hashtag, but I think it's partly because we have a smaller class size so I think management in the large class would be different and I think in that case. If if if I ever get to a point or I thought about it if I ever get to a point when there are too many hashtags that we probably will have some convention about using of keywords so that there's less redundancy. So on the side use slack as our class communication tool. And so you know between slack and and and hypothesis I can imagine a conversation starting up in slack and say, Hey, let's use all use marriage instead of wedding marriage and and be able to very quickly correct the proliferation so um, so yeah met met very manageable. That sounds like a lot of the affordances that you guys benefit from have to do a lot with this small class size right like, I mean when you've got a community of less than 30 people, different things can happen and if there are hundreds right. And I will mention that hypothesis does have some kind of capabilities that might be more useful in large class situations like in canvas at least the ability to tie the annotation groups to sections. You can make a big difference in a much larger class and like that the commentary in the chat here, you probably don't need it. You don't need it in the class, this size right where you might use the same, the same PDF like, like any missing that she does. So, one thing that and I'll just mention this quickly on hashtags to I've learned recently after having met the inventor of the hashtag Christmasina. I've learned that for accessibility purposes, it's actually kind of important to do initial caps and multi word hashtags, because when screen readers are reading hashtags out. They can sense that the initial caps are new words, whereas if everything is lowercase for example, it's harder for the screen readers to know what's a word little tiny tiny practical tips there, but I always used to lowercase all my hashtags to know I'm sort of trying to change. Yeah, so and I'll just, I'll just mention this again. Donald or draw on this point that Donald raised on it would be this idea of having structured hashtags so as a teacher, you might be able to say, define some hashtags that you want to use in your, in your course like I think you have Emily, and then have hypothesis sort of like, enforce those in the sense that you can pull down menu of hashtags that are used in the course or whatever. And we don't have anything like that right now. We've done some experimentation around the idea of having structured hashtags. But that may be something that kind of comes into the comes into the software at a later point, and I'll just say that the way it works right now is when you've been using hashtags in your browser, your browser actually saves your personal sort of hashtags that you've used and so they kind of pop up when you start to type them in again, but it's really only personal to you and your use. And if you move to a different browser they're not there of course. So that's the way it works now and it's not that structured but it sounds like it's still still working on okay for you. So just a little bit of a little bit of information more specifically on hashtags. I'm wondering, you know, we've been asking you a lot of questions, both of our guests here but do you have any questions for us, or for the community that's gathered here about annotation that you've sort of been wondering. I've been wondering. I know that some professional societies are using using the annotations as a means for kind of collective writing right that you are writing a piece together, and using hypothesis to tag it as you know like red you know really neat revision and then green love it and then they can put the comments associated with it. And I have followed on Reddit that there are some sort of external plugins or just taking external that you can save the annotations along with the PDF, but you have to export it out but it's not quite integrated yet I'm curious. Is there interest in, you know, we as you know in the teaching context at the end of say Wednesday we can download the PDF with the whole classes annotation, and then that PDF because annotations are there can be used as a separate thing outside of hypothesis. I wonder is that in the works. I definitely hear where you're going there Emily and, and I'll, I'll have to say that it's definitely something that people have wondered about and thought about and asked about. And people are definitely using hypothesis in writing context, especially when you're commenting on something that you don't have access to modify yourself. And like, I myself often, you know, edit collaboratively in Google Docs because it's such a useful environment for collaborative editing. And I would say probably more useful than trying to use hypothesis for that now, just because of the way that Google comments can be resolved and all those kinds of things. But one of the barriers to reaching what you're, what you're hoping for, Emily is that hypothesis and that the text that it's annotating really they're not the same document right there. It's the annotations are like independent entities that just are anchored into that document. And so it's actually a kind of tricky technical problem to think about how to bring them all together, maybe print them out for instance, or, you know, take a snapshot of them or something although you can do screenshots obviously. But so I'm going to say that right now there's no graceful way to do that in some sort of systematic way. So screenshots come closest in the level of saying like, I really want to see the text and the annotation together. But of course screenshots are not text right there pictures and so they would be in that situation I'm like the pds that Elaine mentioned that can't be annotated and so really so useful. So there are ways to export annotations separately on and we're thinking about bringing that capability into the tool, so that at least you can have like an external record of all the annotations. And each annotation of course carries the anchor of the original text that it was linked to in it, but they're not sitting on top of the original document itself when they're exported right. So, I'm kind of, I'm going to have to give a soft no to that and I wish it were different but it's just it's something that there may be a future where that can come together but it's, it's a hard problem to solve and we haven't figured out the best way to do it yet. But what you just described sounds even that sounds fabulous already right that it is the record of what people wrote with the anchor itself I think that that will be very important. Yeah, and we don't have it built into the tool yet but either me or one of my colleagues can put a link into the chat to tool that our colleague john Udall has designed that is a tool that you can use to export annotation sort of outside of the app right now. And it's a little bit tricky when the annotations are made inside the LMS, I think it's trickier than if they're made out on the open web but it's still possible I believe. And so, maybe Aaron or Jeremy can find that quickly or Franny. I know that we're getting close we got about five more minutes left in our scheduled time and I'm, I didn't give, didn't give a lean a chance to ask any questions yet. I've loved all the questions in the chat to, you know, we have been sort of privileged that we have the smaller courses and I'm just making me think about how to make it work for a larger course because one assignment that I want to do from my lit class is to have, you know, an annotation assignment right where I get to see how they're close reading one passage. I might I have had a I've been thinking about this a lot of this question of just not grading their comments but using as a grading tool right so having them turn in a PDF for me and then I get to sort of grade using hypothesis and I don't have advanced Adobe so it's hard to make comments when someone does turn in a PDF and, and I think logistically right now it's hard to have all the students turn in a PDF file right. But I've been thinking about that more and more as a way for us to give feedback to them, right. But a lot of the features that the students use now, and that I use now to comment on our hypothesis PDF would actually be really helpful and I'm giving them feedback and grading their written work. So I wonder, I'm wondering if anyone has done that with it or. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up a lot of people assume that if you're going to use annotation in LMS context the first use would be like giving feedback on student writing, for example, as opposed to the kind of collaborative reading that we're talking about here. And so it's definitely possible. The barriers to it now are really have some some part to do with the way permission structures are set up in the LMS. So interestingly enough in Moodle, a different LMS than the canvas that you guys use at Colorado College. It's actually possible to give students the permission to upload their own hypothesis enabled readings and so essentially if I were your student I could turn in my paper to you. And then there's also, you know, the question of, you know, how, how, how private those conversations are going to be is it going to be just a conversation between me and the teacher, or is it again going to be like a peer review kind of thing where the whole class is involved. That is definitely a place that hypothesis will go. And it's a little bit of a dance between us and the way the different LMSes work, and just around the permissioning and so forth. But it's certainly something that we that we are interested in doing. I mean, my other colleagues wanted to jump in on that. I noticed that our other colleague Jeremy also joined. He may just be like, like enjoying working in the background and listening. But if any other hypothesizer has any comments about that I'd love to love to hear them. I mean, there are sort of workarounds that you can do now for instance, your students could send you a PDF. You could enable it for for social annotation. And the only trick there would be like the privacy question like, did you want the whole class to be looking at it too, which could be useful and instructive, or did you just want to use it in a context. And in that case, unfortunately right now there there's the problem of like the only real way to have complete privacy around annotation between two people would be to have like private groups, you know, you and each student in your own private group and that's, it's a little too ungainly to sort of work out that way I think. And I noticed that we we got also a new question from Karen about and then we kind of been chatting about it I see that you've been chatting in the chat to but about the students kind of response to annotation and I have that too because I have, like I mentioned earlier I have a couple of high school kids of my own. Well, one's a nice one was a college actually. And the one in high school actually dislikes annotation quite a bit. And I always feel that it's because maybe her teachers aren't assigning or using annotation in the rich ways that it sounds like you guys are. And I would be curious to hear a little bit more about your experiences with the students attitude toward it like you've kind of described that they jump in, and they kind of get started and they seem to sort of take off. Have you had any like a negative reactions to it. I think I think your intuition's right Nate that you know it depends on how the assignment is structured right. And that's an education psychology that a novice actually has a hard time asking questions. They don't know what's the right question and so if we just tell the students go post for questions and answer for, then it is hard for them to ask good questions they might not know the right level to ask and I think if we can help by modeling. What questions to ask what questions to comment so actually I'm sure alien does the same right I promise the students at 48 hours before is due. The annotations will be there if you want to be a way ahead of me please but otherwise 48 hours ahead you can start by looking at what I comment on and how I say hey look at this paragraph the next three is actually really dense. So I would suggest right and we offer strategies and I think if we do a more kind of proactive type of questioning it helps. There's questions right that you know do the students like it I actually I'm on slack ask the question students last night and say hey, how is it working for you tell me you know what's working what's not working. How should other students use it right I asked them very broadly, and they, they really mostly talk about the text are sometimes very long and dense right and that I'm stressed out or it gets boring late at night when I'm trying to keep track of reading pages, but they all said that it is very beneficial that when they can see what others are saying and asking. It helps them know that their questions are normal. It helps them break apart the long paragraphs to smaller things so they can pay attention. So they talk about actually affects their motivation that helps them manage the time it helps them manage segmenting the work to do it with good and attention and one student I didn't paste into there talked about that how she feels this close reading and annotation led her to increase her vocabulary and insight into the topic right so but otherwise is is they don't know you know how best to divert their 90 minutes reading and I think that this tool helps helps them. And I'll just add that that one of the really helpful things about the workshops that we did have here, both with with both one that was led by Aaron from hypothesis but also our team here that was looking at remote learning or distance distance learning was that they were very clear about about the fact that you had to have a very kind of structure and like assignment right that it helps to have a guide it helps to have them look at very specific things right and they're just getting used to doing the social annotation and and then I think from there you can kind of keep fiddling with things right and see what what works for them and what what what doesn't. And also yeah you have to be engaged to you can't just like throw this out at them and then expect them to do and then not check in at all. Like, I think for me it's actually been really fun to do that right where I get to respond to them and. And yeah and I think a lot of two is that you have to go in there and and not validate their comments but like, but, but be supportive of what they're asking and what they're thinking about and then bringing it back into discussions right so We mean what we all know this as teachers right it can't be a standalone thing like it has to also exist as part of the classroom. And there are ways to build that at the front end right but then also ways to come back in and and echo some of those points in discussions and slack or whatever else you're using. And I realize we're getting we're already over there a lot of time you guys may have to go teach or something so we should probably let you go. I saw that Melissa put in some of her prompts, or a question about if you could put in some of your prompts that use and I know that Emily did share some of the prompts that she uses at the beginning of the show. We are recording this on and it will be up on our liquid margins. If you could put that web page friend if you could put that web page URL in the chat again so people can see it. But I do want to be respectful of your time. So, if I'll give you a last chance to say farewell. Emily and then a lean and and then we'll we'll cut it off so people can get on with their days. Do you want to say goodbye Emily. Oh, goodbye. You can copy down, you know, some of the information on the chat so. Oh, sure. Yeah, and you can actually you can save the chat you click on the three little buttons and you can save the whole chat for yourself and you can do that. So if you want to keep it. And I guess you know, in my goodbye then, you know, if you if anyone of you want to get get anything from my syllabus and such then email me you know you can find me Colorado College Emily Chan. It's easy to find. Thank you. And I really look forward to hearing what other folks have done and the liquid margins has been really helpful and in giving me some ideas about what I need to do to what I can do and like I Emily said please do reach out if you want the questionnaires I, you know, doesn't matter to me I'd love for people to be able to use them. I did put my email in the chat, but it's just a low at Colorado college.edu. But thank you everyone this was great and yeah let's keep talking about this stuff. Thank you all so much for coming. Both, both Eileen and Emily and all our guests today it was a really great conversation. Thanks to my co conspirators here at hypothesis, and we'll bring it to an end then. Thank you.