 Welcome to What The Up is Going On in Latin America, CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of Latin America and the Caribbean. In partnership with Friends of Latin America and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast every Wednesday, 4.30pm Pacific, 7.30pm Eastern. On August 5th, Mexico's President Manuel López Obrador announced that Mexico will host talks between representatives of Venezuela's elected government and members of the Venezuelan opposition in its capital this month with Norway serving as mediator. It has been proposed that Mexico be the place to carry out these negotiations, and we accepted because what we are looking for is that there is dialogue and agreements between both parties. It's talks between the government of Venezuela and the opposition. Hopefully an agreement will be reached, López Obrador said at a press conference. Although he declined to say exactly when the talks will take place they are expected to begin on August 13. In July, Venezuela President Nicolás Maduro announced that he was willing to start a dialogue between the government and the opposition with National Assembly President Jorge Rodriguez and Hector Rodriguez, governor of the state of Miranda, representing him in the meeting. The mediation will be held ahead of regional and local elections in Venezuela on November 21. This follows failed negotiation attempts in 2019 that were held in Norway and Barbados. Joining us today to discuss this important event for Latin America politics and regional relations is Diego Siqueira of Mission Verdad. Diego is a writer, journalist, political analysis and researcher, as well as the co-founder for Mission Verdad, Mission of Truth. He's also a fellow with the Samuel Robinson Institute. Both organizations are based in Caracas, Venezuela. You can find Mission Verdad online at Mission Verdad and let me spell that for you, M-I-S-I-O-M-V-E-R-D-A-D dot com. Welcome Diego, a pleasure to have you with us. Thank you Terry. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Let's start our conversation with the history of Venezuelan negotiations with with the opposition or specifically the elected governments, the elected government of Nicolás Maduro and previous dialogue attempts with the opposition of Venezuela. Who is the opposition participating in this dialogue and in the past and what do we know going into this week? Well, you know, the most important thing is that this is, of course, we can have like a framework with starting with the Guaido cycle and then before the Guaido cycle and then we can have and we can have now this moment which is I don't know if it's like the maybe the tail end of the way of this Guaido cycle if I can call it that way. These dialogues since 2019 having sponsored basically by the Norwegian government and as you will said one in 2019 was also held in Barbados and this time well we have a different and very interesting initiative on a very different regional configuration that could it seems kind of promising you know less dialogues didn't come to reach a clear agreement to how to move forward. It was also a different context back then. So now I think it's the correlation of power and strength is different and but not the will of the government let me say that Terry because within the Guaido cycle or before because this is not the first dialogue President Nicolás Maduro has ever had with the opposition, having willing to negotiate and to talk about to find a way to build some sort it's not, you know, it's not to give away anything but it's like to reconcile and bring the politics back to the center of the framework, because you know we've been going through such crazy experiments in the past that aren't exactly political they're just like you know laboratory operations that try to withdraw or try to kidnap sovereignty independence and and the capability to make choices to make proper choices to find a way to move forward basically. And last time, like I told you that also led by Jorge Rodriguez which is a very seasoned negotiator. At one point they were just disrupted and they were usually been in each and every time they've been disrupted by foreign pressure. And it also another thing you might add and take into consideration yes. Am I correct in remembering talking about foreign interference, a phone call from Rex Tillerson from Columbia to Barbados. Yeah, I mean, overtly telling the opposition parties participating in the dialogue then this was in 2019 if I'm remembering correctly. Yes, and not only exactly sabotage the conversation. But that that has happened before you know before the cycle I mean I'm talking about 2016 it also happened it happened also with the EU, some shady heavy phone call for some from somewhere actually you know it brings everything to a halt. What happened I know for a second and this is an inside comment that happened back in 2016 with the EU, which as you will know it's actually the real US backyard in this case and usually they don't. They don't take this you know they don't make this independent decisions about all this. Or at least they show the, they show themselves as doing it but it reaches some critical point with that dark unexpected phone call gets in and everything grounds to a halt. But now things are a bit different because you know something out we still have to make make sure what what is going to be the composition of the of the other side. And also the president and Nicholas has always talked in plural about the opposition, it's not the opposition. I think that's a very important element because we, as you will know, since last year in the new recovered sovereign National Assembly there is an opposition that has gone through the process through the democratic legal process of being elected and to be part of Parliament, and to be part of discussions and debates and propose ideas in there and also to, which is even more important, which is of the essence to have a position about sanctions, about coercive and coercive unilateral measures against Venezuela and to, and to even be sanctioned themselves some of them have you know part of the former. Okay, the part that's splitted from the white doll consensus and in the previous National Assembly, some of them actors like Jose Brito, for example, they were in Barra also. They were sanctioned, they asked opposition politicians, they were sanctioned and I'm talking about people that are not actually complying with everything the government says that are not following the line. Really, and that they're not going their way on critically, they're actually saying what they need to say and they're being quite frank about what they think should be done and it's not the same thing as the government believes it should be done. So, this will be, of course, some sort of I guess it's, it's, it's easily to expect that that would be a very important red line. Let's talk about before we go on with sanctions and how different segments of the Venezuelan population and political composition or interpret sanctions and respond to them. For our audience I think it's really important for us to explain, because I don't think this is known as much as in the United States as it should be. The Venezuelan opposition is more than just the Guaido factor recognized by the United States there are many other opposition parties, many other opposition participants. I can personally say, I was in Venezuela in December for the National Assembly elections December of 2020, and we met the night before the elections on Sunday the sixth. So it was the fifth. Our delegation met with members of the opposition members of the opposition who were partisan there was a number of I think there were 14 or 16 people in the representing various factions in the opposition and all of them were there because they have chosen to participate in the political process. They believe in the Venezuelan constitution. They, they do want a different government and a different economic structure, but they believe that those in the democratic process they were very overt that they were welcome to participate in the political process there was no problem forming political parties registering those parties to participate. They have a different view of the Venezuela, but they feel that the change needs to come through the electoral process the political process and the constitutional process, which all of them believe in. They do not believe in changing the government violently as the Guaido factor does the Guaido and the Guaido faction is supported by the United States. These other people. We never hear about in the United States. And they believe in the political process they even went so far as to say that President of Maduro was very open. And so this was in December, saying that very open to re engaging the opposition and including them in the political process and very overt in attempting to find ways to pull the opposition, you know, more fully into the political process, which perhaps is what is going to happen this week in Mexico City. Hopefully, and indeed that's one thing you have bear in mind, usually they call the main fraction with Guaido and other the g4, you know that's Primero Justicia Voluntar Popular which is Juan Guaidón Leopoldo López Party, which from the Union will be the other one and Democratic, those are the four, the g4, the main, the main parties, but you also have avanzada progresista you also have soluciones para Venezuela, which is an evangelical one you have several new parties also there, but also you have these all these parties as well, except for for Voluntar Popular the Guaidó party that usually they're split, they don't have they don't share the same position about what to do with the government some of them basically acknowledged that the regent change way didn't work. They actually lost a lot of political capital and credibility among them be other people and among a lot of people that are actually just tired of politics in general and that's not a healthy sign if you ask me. But they now acknowledge it and some of them, you know, part of the discussion in Venezuela now it's if the whole faction, the whole fractions of the one party like Axonema Greta will actually participate in the regional elections coming now in November at the end of November. Yeah, I think it's 21. So it's also something that is in progress you also had something from the reason that you might know Terry from the from last year which was almost capri les Enrique capris radons get from Primero justicia party former governor of Miranda and two times presidential loser against Nicholas Maduro that was making his mind. At the end he didn't, but he was actually looking at those for for the European support to be part to participate the in the in the elections at the end he didn't because he's not a stupid person but he's not a brave person either. So he didn't have like the spine to you know, he could even make you he could have been even a game changer in the opposition politics if he would have participated back then but like I said he's not going to take the risk without some sort of Western backup. Even though you know this dialogue this context of part of real politics with oppositions also been being you know it's been endorsed by almost all the world. You know each and every country except from yeah the US Canada, some Latin American countries which have of course a very US aligned government. And some of them that now have changed a lot, and some European countries and some, and even the inside EU, you don't have like a consensus, you have several countries that smile at the process and then they've been pushed by their own by the EU structure to hold back and to keep the line with the US bottom. So it's something that we have to see and also we have to see what sort of commitments what sort of agreements will come out of this and if that's going to be enough at least for the EU. And it's not a matter of recognition by itself because we don't need that and actually if you have over 120 countries that actually recognize the constitutionally elected government, and they also recognize the legal political opposition. It's not, you know, it's not necessary by principle but you also have to like ease the tension diffuse the tension, and also this for funny enough it also shows how for me driven. This also is including some parties that may be not on the crazy regent change bandwagon right now, but they don't make their minds they don't grow a spine. So it's something that we might maybe, and I will be very happy if it happens and I really look forward to it and maybe it's something that the, the, the, the horridories and necrolories will have in mind from the ideas of President Nicolas would be actually to bring these people into default. It's interesting to me. I'm also on a personal level for all of you who I love in Venezuela. It's pretty exciting. What is going to happen in Mexico this week and, and the timing of it is really wonderful or is maybe a better word would be. There's a, in my interpretation there's, there's a moment here to be grasped the composition of Latin America is different than it was in 2019. We have the return of the mass party in Bolivia. We have the terrific election of Pedro Castillo in Peru, who has officially withdrawn Peru from the Lima group that's going to be an enormous influence on the, on the conversation this week in Mexico. And also this, this dialogue is happening on the heels of President Lopez Obrador's magnificent discourse on July 24, the anniversary of Simone Bolivar's birth. And I'll put that discourse in the, in the chat for the audience to see if it was a, it was a profound foreign policy speech about the, about non interference the respect of sovereignty the need to even perhaps get rid of the OAS and create a body that is more inclusive and more respectful of national sovereignty and non interference. It's a, it's a very special moment this week, I think. Yes, and it's also very fluid, you know, bear in mind that the idea of creating a regional body with outside of the OAS framework was a child's idea back from 2011. That's when the CELAC was created. So it's a, it's a good that I don't care about crisis at this moment you know it's the most important thing is to actually do it. And it's also great that Lopez Obrador had this idea and has been leading it you know the tide started to change when he I think it was early 2020 he said, I'm not for sanctions. And this is not fair and we can't. You know, we can't give our back to Venezuela. It's, I mean, it's also in Latin America, it also goes against their own foreign policy doctrine, their historical one, even from the pre before neoliberalism, you know, yes. And Mexico used to be before this all the dark years until Lopez Obrador got back into office used to be had had a leading role in all of Latin American affairs, but it was, you know, like, it was drawn down because of well because of all the neoliberal madness and all the NAFTA framework that created that complex and horrible situation that actually, you know, brought Mexico to a very dark place for a long while so it's it's very important I even I could have my own difference as Venezuela and as a chavista on his body body and conception and his body body and approach and even his hemispheric idea but it's very doesn't mean that it's not clever enough. And it doesn't mean it all perfectly goes into what Mexico always represented. Yes, you have also the demise. I think it's the demise or at least it's going to be the, the, it's going to take the Lima group to a more frank and candid place because if as you will know the Lima group was actually Canadian creation. Yes, and it was created to recognize why though, as the as as the leader of Venezuela, there was one of the reasons it was created to create a block with the OAS. It was, it was a couple of years before you know it wasn't 2017 if I'm not mistaken at the mid 2017 with the one day after the massive failure of a new regent chamber very violent regent change attempt that didn't work through. And it did got its strength once in its sense actually when during the Guaido years, you know, as a year and a half afterwards. And um, but it was a different Latin America back then and you and you also had well you had Macri for example in Argentina you still got. You know who wasn't you were you had a peña Nieto in Mexico. It was a different composition of you all Peru just, you know, like came out of the of its sleeve after you know maybe 40 years 50 years. So it's very, very interesting and then, but I also say fluid because, well, you know, there's a also a milder non chavista non radical troika troika of time your approach from Mexico and Argentina right now, especially with me I watch it which I think it's pretty unfair. But yeah, I think, but I also say it's fluid because I don't think it must be a definitive situation and then and it should evolve at some point. But um, anyway, it's still way more better than just a year ago and even better than two years ago or three years ago or four years ago when we have a very hostile environment. Basically, Venezuela and Cuba and Nicaragua were alone. We were alone for a long time. You know, even progressive forces and I have to say this. They didn't do much. They also have like a zoom this critical trend, because well you know we had to go through tough times and tough decisions also because we were actually not in a political context we were in a war context in a hybrid warfare context, the mix of non conventional war warfare elements, plus a color coded revolutionary process revolutionary in a sense, of course not not in the in the ideological way we're used to in a very destructive way you know in color evolution which is also a lab thing it's not an organic genuine thing it's just the you using the tactics and using some elements that are also well we there's a whole story to this since the end of the 20th century. But um, it just I think this is important that you brought up since the end of the 20th since the since the election of Hugo Chavez as president and and the introduction, I think it's the fifth constitution. It's very progressive far more progressive than anything that we live by in the United States. But there has been you mentioned hybrid war and for our audience I'm sure most of most of you know that we're talking about diplomatic warfare, you know restricting visas restricting who can apply for passports who can, who can come to the UN sanctions or well sanctions illegal illegal sanctions which which we formally call unilateral coercive measures and and also, I would argue since 1999, a really, really aggressive media war against the elected Venezuelan government. So there. And so, I mean, those are three forms of hybrid war there's others as well but really the media narrative has been has been profound for for over 20 years. Well, we had the first media group in the 20th century, the 21st century, you know they actually are strict by the book media cook in 2002. Based on narratives, of course, of course there was a hardcore on the ground situation, but what but it was driven by the narrative it was driven by media. You know, it was actually a template for a lot of things that came afterwards because even the use of a sharpshooters for example it's something they use afterwards in my done you know to create my done Ukraine 2014 to create confusion and to also fire to both sides. The one that was against the government and the one that was for the government and that actually triggered the whole, the final stage of written change that was also tested in Venezuela back then, you know, 10 years before 12 years before. And April of 2002 this was the coup against Hugo Chavez just for reference for our audience. It was a 47 hour coup basically was from the from the from April 11 to April the 13th it was most importantly was a countercoup, because it was a massive nationwide mobilization but specially in Caracas and brought back I mean it brought down the, the fake the cool government and it brought back. We have the elected government commander Chavez in 12 is one more time. And actually it was one of the first radicalizing experiences that made the Bolivarian Revolution go further. And it was actually the like the setting stage for what came afterwards. So, after those years. We're talking about 2002 2003 we got the missions, starting you the social missions about you know the reading program the literacy program, and an education programs, which was also a game changer and also the health programs by the Pedro, and then in 2006. Six, Chavez got like one of the highest rates of, you know, of electoral vote and right afterwards is it. But right after that I mean with it started to unleash and well you also have Mar del Plata 2005 when they say, and when they say Alca Alcarajo, which was the free trade agreement with the Latino with the Americas. I was also game changer and because not even neighbor wasn't powered and only Chavez and Lula I think Nestor Kirchner. Yes, and kitchen from Argentina. And that, you know, started set the base for the next, the way that you guys call the pink tight. It was, and that was actually what was rolled back, like 10 years afterwards, and of course we use use all these technology and it was also was focused on all the weaknesses we had here in Venezuela. Also in Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, and everywhere else to start to undermine that all the reconquered from the people although the other things that were you know recovered and all the the dignity that was recovered for any and a lot of places in a huge swath of geography. And that was also what was targeted. Yes. But we're seeing such a potential where I shouldn't even say potential like I believe we're seeing the reemergence or the resurgence. Of the pink tide. And I think this is the moment that the Mexican government is grasping and agreeing to host the dialogue this week. I also, for me, and correctly if I'm wrong, one of the things that I interpret from the discussion that's choosing to participate that participates in the Venezuelan political process that does believe in the Constitution, and a meeting with some of them in December but also seeing the response. It's, and how they've responded or evolved over the years, you know you brought up the 2002 coup against President Chavez. Those external events orchestrated overtly and sometimes less overtly by the United States, really and not just in Venezuela, but in most countries throughout the region have to me backfired, they've created, instead of causing massive chaos and corruption within a country, they've created a sense of national sovereignty first. And I feel when you're on the streets in in Venezuela, you can really feel that people are Venezuelan first, they believe in their country, they are united in themselves as the Venezuelan people, they are you I say say you are Venezuelan yourself. There's a sense that, and this includes the opposition not the Guaido opposition but we left alone to run our country ourselves. We have our own problems initiate our own programs, and we want to do that without external interference and it's a really strong feeling in most countries that I have been in the Americas where there's been overt attempts by the United States and or its allies to change a government. All it's done is created a stronger sense of national sovereignty. And I think that sense of national sovereignty is what's hopefully going to play out this week in Mexico City. You can even, I think there are three elements that are pretty important one of them, of course is in the case of Venezuela, of course they lost. And that's important. That's very important they lost and their losers their political losers and they also they let down their own people. So you have that sort of grievance formula from from from a section that was actually radicalized with the opposition with the with the with the recent events. Then you have another element which is also important, which is experience. I'm not thinking exactly about Venezuela because when it's what I think it's because holding the line what's tough and it has been hurting a lot. As it has been hurting people in other places like Ecuador and some other places where it also hurt a lot to lose what they actually when they realize what they lost in all the Congress they got so then they realize also even people that are not militant or they're not political activists. They know they were better with these independent governments. So it's also a matter of common sense. And then you have a third element which I think it's very important. And it's not usually brought to the table as it should I guess which is nationalism, you have a Latin American nationalism, you know which is also feeling even beyond the case of Venezuela goes beyond Chavismo. There were several polls about the US involvement in changing things in Venezuela they always had a high rate of rejection. They could have, I mean, maybe they didn't like the chavista government made them didn't like Nicolás Maduro. Maybe they thought Chavez was better or whatever but they believe, and I'm thinking about people that are not necessarily chavista they believe that our problems need to be solved by ourselves. And that's a very important element that's something they also woke up in the people because when you push someone too hard to some very hard place, they're sooner or later they're going to react in a good way, because you're going to realize what it's actually at stake. And so you have to also you have to get give credit to that line of thinking that not one more time it's predominant and it doesn't necessarily involve Chavismo, but then you have the stubborn majority of Chavismo hugely mobilized. I mean we had the primary last Sunday in the 88th. And it was five million people going Terry to pick their candidates for regional elections and even they got even people that are not in the party. They don't have a party card that also participated in voted they were open five million people you know in this crappy context. So that tells you a lot of how people still engage in politics and believe in political solutions on a local level. We're talking about local politics here, which always is a bit different, but of course they're interconnected, but of course they're also different priorities for different people because if maybe in Caracas it's very much more easier to see the global interaction. But when you're in some, you know, any other places in inside Venezuela, it's not that obvious. It's not that obvious at first take of course if you dig a bit deeper you're going to find it. But that tells you how vibrant and lively politics are, and how people believe that they have something to do and to say if they vote and if they participate. It's really, it's really a wonderful thing to see, especially as you mentioned earlier, how, how difficult US intervention is in all its forms in Venezuela has made daily life and yet people still participate. They still navigate their day and I can tell the audience with personal experience. I've lived in Venezuela for three, four month periods at a time. It's not easy living under universal coercive measures to navigate what what people in the states would call a normal day. All of you do it. You do it because you believe in yourselves in your country, and your sovereignty and it's a very, very powerful thing to to be among is it's very powerful to be among you and your people. What would in our closing minutes Diego what would you as a Venezuelan citizen. What's your dream vision for this week in Mexico City. You know, you've said something that I think you can also sum up as a battle for normalcy, you know, to have a normal life, a normal daily life and if this it's going to contribute to exactly that to have a livable life, a bit better than we have now with an economy that could actually work and with people not trying to disrupt the natural process of, you know, just reaching out to each other in a normal way, and to find solutions. That's, that will be huge, because it's going to be complex and challenging that's also something the President and Nicholas have said and I believe him. Why do I believe him. And, you know, and what also it's, I think it's a fear also because I remember for example when your commandant the child is died in 2013. It was like a natural process to you know build bridges among people it was actually the opposition was the opposition people with opposition thought we're actually more scared than we were. It was a natural process just to reach normally to all these people and then suddenly in February 2014 we have like this awful packed this dark pack within the between the polar lobex my record in a machado and Antonio les Desmaricola Salida the exit, which actually targeted that feeling of national feeling of just you know, talk, you know to keep the dialogue going between people that have lots of difference but don't care about the end of the day because we all share the same need to have a nice and decent life. And to have, you know, and to make the value of your work worth to have a decent salary to be able to have to make to have one more time that the security you had with with health care for example, or with education and not leaving in this kind of community so if this is going to cast out those ghosts, it's going to be just a major, major step and it should be taken. It's very hopeful. And as we said earlier that the complexion of Latin America is different now. Then, then the last go rounds with the dialogue between the Maduro government and the opposition and it's, I feel it's hopeful. It's not because I'm sitting here outside with country. I just feel the moment is so is so hopeful. You know, you have a possibility. Yeah, just a real possibility. And from so many others throughout the region as well. I mean, the complexion of countries as you said you know, Venezuela Cuba Nicaragua for many years the three of you were alone and you now are have more patriots with you now. And, and I think the president of Mexico has really seized that moment. I do believe and I hope he keeps moving forward and delivering with that. Yes, so so I will keep our fingers crossed we'll keep watching how the dialogue moves forward this week, and I hope you come back. And, and we can analyze what when the when the dialogues are complete. We can talk about how they went. Sure, absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be soon enough there so don't worry. Thank you so much for joining us. And I want to remind our audience that you've been watching what the F is going on in Latin America code pinks weekly YouTube program. We broadcast on code pinks YouTube channel every Wednesday 730pm Eastern 430pm Pacific, and we broadcast on code pink radio every Thursday at 1130, excuse me 11am Eastern 8am Pacific on WBAI out of New York City, and WPFW out of Washington DC. Again, thanks a lot Diego wonderful conversation so happy to see you again. Yes, me too. All the best. Thank you so much.