 The, no, like, I guess it's not like I see medium is like being very specific to one type of content and there aren't subscriptions and the way it's monetized is typically tied just to ads, is that correct? But these are like, you can like have different tiers like Patreon style of like levels of support, you can sort of like have paid and free content and like that's all like set up and managed. Or you can set up like courses where you like sell modules to content and things like that, which it looks like Claudia is a little more on that like online courses and membership. But does that possible in medium? I didn't think so, but I don't know. No, it's not really not not meaningfully. It sounds much more like Patreon, but with a web host framework, which is cool. Yeah, and I think that the ones that are not Patreon offer a lot more versatility and like multi currency and things like that. Yeah, well that's not even the biggest beef I would have with Patreon. Patreon, I mean I I struggle with all of these. I want to hear. Well it's challenging. I mean so we actually had a reading session where I had this was one of the optionals but like, do you know who sexy cyborg is? And is that the she's like a maker in. Oh, no, sorry. No, but your clothes. So she had this weird thing. I can't remember which was New York. It's like, yeah, she got like really doxed by that tech news reporter, right. Yeah, so there was kind of doxing going on there and then like she sort of tried to retaliate so she's there's something that she's like not saying publicly. I think like she's lesbian or something like that. But she's not she doesn't say exactly what it is but it's something that is much more dangerous to say out loud in China than it is to say here. I think in general is like, super feminist and like there's a lot of stuff going on in terms of like she put she makes her, her body very Western sexy but it means something different in China than it does here. And like she does it to have a feminist platform in which she can critique the government without being taken overly seriously. So she's kind of this fascinating individual. Anyway, I don't know which which web, like, slightly edgy tech publication came over and interviewed her. And she had these like conversations that were like, just to be clear, you cannot talk about this in your publication, or I will be in moral danger. They went ahead and like did or like we're planning to or something like that. And so then her version of retaliation to like try to stop this or something. I'm not sure exactly it's been a while since I've read it. But like, it was too. She found the address of the editor in chief. Who is like a, you know, like, well off well connected white guy in New York City. Kind of a different situation, but you know like doxing is still doxing, I guess. And what she did is in one of her maker videos there was like a couple of seconds of snippet where she's like made these brand new heels that had like persistence of vision or something in the heel part. And she made his address for a second in one of her videos. I didn't like say do something to this guy but it was like, definitely intended for him to notice it. And he did. And he knows people at Patreon and they said well off against our terms of service you're now banned. So then she stopped having a source of income. This like crazy like culture clash ethics, like everybody's doxing each other but like different levels anyway, like the fact that they were kind of just hearing his side and not hearing her side. They just like banned her with no recourse. Yeah. And the later when she got on one of those other like alternative crowdfunding platforms and then got banned off of there because they basically were shutting down sleeping giants kind of shut down the platform and she was kind of like just a casualty there because there was a lot of people who were not these also on that platform, because it's the one that Patreon won't let posts there. They accept everybody that that Patreon won't. Anyway, that's kind of my beef with Patreon is like failure to have nuance in their sort of terms of service for like, she's a major creator like she's not. I don't know like I can see it when like, like if Twitter banned my account, sort of by accident because a bunch of people reported something wrongly or whatever like, I would kind of get it that they would ignore me for months even though I don't love it from my account got hacked and I never got back to me as an example there. But like, but she's not like as nobody is me you know, she's, she's a major creator and she's very influential and like they just. Like, give her a fair hearing I feel, but I feel like they're kind of playing politics instead and I don't know like, it is their platform and that's kind of the point that we have in these conversations is like, well, I guess it's your right to do whatever the hell you want like, you can ban people. It's funny though when you're creating when you're creating platforms you're creating like the commons space, in a sense, you know, and like yeah sure. The, the fact that it's a digital commons means that it's posted somewhere and that there, there's software behind it and all of this investment, private equity or otherwise. It goes into making that a possibility. Yeah, I think this is where like, in general the nuance in the tech space around the ethics or I guess the like, the policy considerations of banning somebody from a commons or commons s space. And it seems like reading through a simple terms and conditions wouldn't be enough to make that call, you know, like, like, and just following it by the letter that there should be more consideration around, especially like high profile situations. But I don't know. Yeah, like at a certain size you kind of need a Jerry right. Some sort of entity. Isn't that what twitch has done, like they have this like whole advisory panel because I think their application of how people get banned has been always really intense and like, kind of difficult to adjudicate and like they'll hand down like a band on when like a stream is still going so it's like, it's like, it's so real time and dynamic and then there have been so many to push back from the community that they announced that community advisory panel, which was also then like the stack with all of the same techniques around how they handle them. But that actually seemed like an attempt to actually engage with some of those things that you mentioned thinking about this is like, not just a space that like, like the company administers, if that makes sense. Yeah. Just to check in on time and stuff. I guess if there's only three of us are plans for this call won't work. And I wonder if at some point we just want to have a brief chat about the readings or, or do we want to postpone it and see if we have luck again, like what are people doing. I mean, I guess it was a risk and apologies for my scheduling but that people wouldn't show up because it is the day that it is. I don't know why I feel like adversity when saying it out loud. So we've had, we've had low attendance for the last several, like Jonathan and I rescheduled a couple times and we got, you know, us two and one other person and we actually had a great conversation. But I don't know I guess there's there's a conversation that should be had at some point about like data together as a group. I find a lot of value here. And I feel like I interact with a lot of different people who are also passionate about the issues when we have the sessions but I don't know like I wonder to what extent I'm not reading the room on this because like, you know it is it is a lot of work to make the reading list and then to execute on it and like to show up and have the conversation. And I don't want to be holding a space for people to work hard and then be disappointed when nobody should stop. I mean I think it's just like, 2020 is like a year. I'll jump in in one second here I just have a little guy who just briefly is interrupting. No, but yeah, Kelsey I feel similarly it's been a valuable space. I think for me personally 2020 is just been like, blah. So, I don't even feel like I've been able like I've come to half of the sessions but I've missed a bunch of other ones. And that is not a reflection of like my desire it's like just a reflection of like trying to like survive. Yeah, I I'm, I also because this is the first session I've been in all year like I think I was in one late last year. And the, like Kelsey Kelsey knows because we met up with her in Seattle, briefly. We met up with her last fall, or like last December or something. So she knows what what we were doing right before the pandemic hit we were driving around in a truck camper as a family of four, like house sitting, and like, you know, like, totally like lumpen proletariat, almost at various points. And before that was a bit, that was a bit intense right and then the pandemic hit and it was like our house sitting gigs dried up as nobody was flying anymore. And we suddenly had to like figure out how to shelter in place, which meant having to return to the model of housing called renting, which we had made like this, like a stern commitment that we weren't going to return to that. We were just leasing a chunk of land on somebody's farm and putting our built tiny home on it. We couldn't go back and build a tiny home in in the because the US that's where it was and we just couldn't get over the border anymore so suddenly we found ourselves like having to rent and having to make more income as a result to like pay for the rent. And everything just has been so busy since then, like it's just been like looking for contracts or like testing product ideas online running training and just just going and it's, it's great from like, oh yeah the business has like really got and started. But in terms of my ability to participate in other things it's just like everything just completely exploded. And I've been thinking about this quite a bit we had. I think the question that there's like a, there's a question here, Kelsey for you and your group around like, and it's aptly related to this question of quality. Like, how do we, how do we foster and sustain like active and engaged communities of practice in a time when there's so much uncertainty and, and strangely like busyness like it seems silly that we're that we shouldn't be this busy but everybody just seems so busy. And it's ridiculous. You've had a crazier than everybody year dang I didn't even remember like. It was crazy, like the first, you know, four months of this year we're just like, like just not. Yeah, the busyness thing really resonates like I'm somehow doing about the same or significantly less in terms of like, number of commitments, but the amount of like, weird busyness around them is like intense and it feels hard to be like present in those spaces as like a community or something, despite like being like an active participant in them for even like maybe more hours or at least the same I feel like I'm like less there. Which is funny because like this group always was distributed and online so I'm not sure why that feels, I feel a bit more removed from it now but. Oh, it's really real though. Also, edgy. Well, not all of edgy but a big chunk of edgy including me picked up like a big new project and you know how you know how normally edgy kind of shuts down over the summer. Instead we accelerated and we just had a huge launch of a project we've been working on since like January and you know this we took last week off, which was a great idea I can't believe we actually managed to cancel, we were having two hour and a half meetings a week and we canceled both of them last week. But we're back now. I'm meeting this morning, and I've got another one on Thursday to try to figure out like what we're doing next in this, in this project phase, and it's like, it's really it's a really good project. And I'm worried that if we don't continue it like people will drop off. But I also don't want to keep it going because people are burning out. Okay, I would, we talked a little bit about this about like anti productive spaces and like meeting spaces. We were preparing for this call but that has come up in a lot of other groups on the part of to like how do we like be together but like rescale the amount of work we're doing. So the like process of the active meeting be like part of the work like Michelle has mentioned that in the context of the technical science research unit which resonates with me but I really and I don't know I also do have a lot of work I'm supposed to be doing. So it's a bit of a like, I can't do no work, I have to figure out how to like do only the right amount of work. But I am not there yet. Yeah, and I'm wondering if we can slow this down like I do. I know that some people don't show up at these data together sessions because they're like, well I didn't have time to do the readings and I don't want to show up every time having not done the readings and I get it. And it's legit and like having done this a bunch curating the readings is amazingly hard and time consuming. So we're doing okay with edgy did a pretty good session of we did an anti racism training we got like a good dozen people through it. With like an outside consultancy this summer, which was really cool. And we even have this follow on like part of every other all edgy meeting now is devoted to, like in meeting anti racism workshop for everybody. One of the specific elements of it is that there is no, there's no pre work like if we're reading something it's something we're going to read during that time. And I'm wondering if we could pick that up here. So when you're saying like what to do, I was going to suggest my my partner and I we used to run this thing called the wayward school ages ago. There was like skill and knowledge sharing events distributed around the city of Victoria in spaces that, you know, we're, I don't know, like underutilized so we would use isn't it like we are closed down businesses and warehouse spaces and backyards and all of this. But one of the one of the formats that we experimented because we, it was like we were running like seasons of programming around the theme. Like the first one was home economics, and it would just be anything that we could find within our community so if there's anybody who wanted to teach something. We created the platform for them to come in and do it. And one of the things that we that we did was we had this thing called the out loud reading group, which was like, very open, like, you don't have to read anything to come to this reading group because we're going to read it out loud here. And we would pick just one text that was like, really, you know, juicy foundational and some, you know, just there's a lot to it. And we would literally just pass that text around the table. And we would get like 20 people from the community at these things, just passing around this, this print out of this essay or whatever it is right. And we would make our way through like four paragraphs, because it's like, every time somebody would start reading like yes no so anyways, what this makes me think about is that and then that would lead to a bit of a conversation and then kind of turn to the next person they'd read like a couple of lines and then stop and go yeah and then this and this and this. I mean it was a really interesting way and it required no advanced reading but you could if you wanted to you could read it in advance. So the option was always there if you wanted to digest the whole thing before you came but you didn't have to. Yeah, I like that. That reminds me of, well, like a couple of things that there is that there was like it's not going right now. A standing event here called choir choir choir where you would like go and learn a song to sing about. And so you would like show up. I don't think they always announced the song in advance. But you would not like all the prep and like getting ready to sing together with like happen there, pick up a sheet with the lyrics like walk through it as an exercise together. And by the end have like accomplished something that didn't require like that work in advance. And the other thing that reminds me of this, which actually works, and I really love it is in a few organizations and a part of but like probably the largest one that does this is one of the unions. Is keep it 3902, and they read their like anti oppression, kind of like positionality statement as a group by like passing up paragraph to paragraph around the room before every meeting. I think it would make sense to try to, I don't want to let data together drop I want to have another semester of it next year, and by semester I mean the whole year eventually. I'm wondering if maybe that's a good way to do it is just have, you know, like people volunteer to bring a piece that feels appropriate that we all kind of read in the space. And then, and I really like step and what you were talking about with people just feeling comfortable pausing and saying, I want to discuss this. Because that's, you know, for me, I love the variety of people that come to data together and the backgrounds they come from and that's a huge part of, you know, the readings are great but parsing it with other people is what really unlocks them. Yeah, I think. Yeah, there's so many, there's so many fun formats to do with it as well to like. There's another exercise that I really quite like. It's called narrative re authoring, which is a little more, a little more out there but you can have, you can have an interesting conversation stem from from material using that, and that's, it's anyways I just I just I know all of these different formats and tools and everything because this is what I teach all the time. So I'm more than happy to like help help share ideas around around format. And I thought like, coming back to what Don was saying either in terms of in terms of like what do we do for this call right now. I think this conversation is a good part of that. And then maybe we, maybe we experiment or have a feel for one of the structures that we can actually do the three of us right now if we want to. And then from that get a sense of like, at least some measure of differentiation I mean we've done like everybody here has done facilitated things with people. So that's like fairly common but we could do like, we could do one, we could do the spiral journal if we wanted to right now. We could do narrative reauthoring if you guys wanted to. But they're more reflexive, they're more like, they're more slowing down. If we had a bigger group we could do like, you know, some of these other breakout he wants, and then get a get a different feeling from each because the thing that I find with, gatherings of people, like, whether they're coming together for like a very tight purpose like they all understand this is like we all work together we're all fairly interdependent in our work. Versus a group of people more like data together where it's like we're loosely held together by an interest in the topic and an interest in the conversations in the community that gets created around that conversation. So in both of those instances there's like ways to, to leverage purpose in different ways you know what I mean. And one thing that I'm kind of curious about Kelsey is like for data together. And maybe this is just me being like unfamiliar with the space for data together and edgy is there like a overlap or is it like, are they two completely different things. Like, folks who come to data together, are they also part of edgy, or like, how does, how does that makes your work. Yeah, well, I think, Don, is this your brainchild originally, I feel like I took it over from you. I assume you originated it. And yeah, I but I would say I don't actually totally know the answer anymore. So, when it started it was like, it grew out of probably like mostly edgy facilitator like energy and at the time I was doing most of that that would have been like three years ago. And kind of like an active engagement that also involves software development and like a lot of time and energy with query and protocol labs. So it was imagined as a try partnership, I don't know how to say that a partnership. And we had imagined always kind of like splitting that like some of that coordinating work and sort of tried to set up a very loose governance approach around that, and then plan to have like an annual meeting once a year to check in on the various things that were going on the first year was like really. Yeah, it was like around multiple different channels and then by the second year that kind of really focused in on what I would say were edgy strengths if you're kind of like creating this as a space for a certain type of conversation that wasn't happening. I think, totally within edgy. Otherwise, but it drew a lot from conversations that edgy has facilitated, and then also that weren't I guess maybe weren't happening around protocol labs and query at the time. Yeah, like I don't, I don't actually know if I have a strong handle on how it feels like things are now or how much this feels like it overlaps with edgy. I would sort of turn that to Chelsea. Yeah, I mean it's, it's really interesting because it has this it has this history, right, like Don was saying of, of intending to be a technical, a technical challenge that people take on together. And even through last year we were having an in person annual meeting, and we had represented some protocol labs and query, and we would generally have somebody from protocol labs and query and edgy at every session. Although I kind of took over the coordinating which Don had been basically handling. I think Kevin had a stint in there we here is doing a lot of coordinating to. Now it's sort of odd because over the same time period, like edgy originally started as a big data saving archiving operation, and it hasn't been that for multiple years basically to since I was hired to coordinate it. And hired to coordinate the archiving specifically which we don't do. We're in this really interesting space where like, I feel like a part of the big part of the original intention was to have a, a more ethical and more citizen controlled way to be saving data than we had. And I think it's kind of spun into this much more theoretical discussion because like Brendan actually made query, my understanding is kind of based on the data together conversations. Query is like a decentralized data set software company that he started. And then, like IPFS, they're, they're very engaged with us. Sometimes, and other times not like when they just did their file coin big launch in September they reached out to me and they're like hey, we're ready for your data. All that data you have we want to put it on the D web, and I unfortunately had to respond to that with like, I'm, oh my God I'm so sorry I'm very busy and I don't know where the data is. I actually got to reach out to them this week and we're like hey so ready now. That's the dream we had originally so that'd be cool if we could say yes to it. But it's, it's sort of strange because like Rob, who has not hasn't hasn't been in a lot of these recent meetings, I'm not sure if you've been across there with him, Stephen. Gosh reading your name is very hard for me. He still very much cares about these principles, and he's very active at edgy still he's one of the, I would say one of the few folks who's like, have this very consistent through line since like Trump's election basically at edgy, where he does this exact type of data work. Anyway, I've sort of felt like this is a space where, like, edgy comes in with this very strong environmental data justice angle. And holds space for other people to come in and bring their perspectives so we have folks like you work, Stephen working on like, and don actually working on like kind of understanding collectivist faces and like having these really strong, like experiences of community organizing. We have people coming in from citizen science backgrounds. We have people coming in, who maybe have no, like real background in justice issues or community organizing at all, who are building protocols, and they've maybe never had a time of space to think about like, if I make this technical decision. How does that play out in terms of who's able to use it and how they're able to use it. It's just, it's this really cool like intersection, when it works which I feel like it honestly often does. But I can't say I mean to directly enter your question. I can't say that there's a lot of overlap with edgy because kind of we don't do that anymore. It's just me, but I'm still, I mean I work for edgy. And I'm still sort of holding that space at edgy to when we have data conversations. Like, I'm the technical one in the room usually saying hey well we should, we should consider doing it this way. We should be present in these spaces, and I feel like a representative and a lot of the technical, like conferences outside of the edgy sphere and say hey I'm coming from this totally other like I have a real, I have a real use case for data decentralization, which isn't often the case in data decentralization, like nerd meetups. Which I still find so intensely interesting. I know. Like, a few years in that this still is a, maybe a really strong this case though I think something like say Starling, the Starling project I don't know if you've spoken to Jonathan. It would be a good person to actually invite to some sort of data together event. There they do are it's actually similarly like, you know, thinking about needing to archive. It's important is like witness testimony, it's testimony related to I think Holocaust survivors exclusively. But it's sort of like things that were reported with the intent of being publicly available from now and into the future, thinking about these questions of like trust and holding this sort of data but that also is like, like a, like a global like has this resonance and so many important communities at very strong like orientation towards justice. A little bit of a different, like, it's not the environmental justice angle in the same way it's more like it's a human rights and witnessing emphasis but you know it's like very resonant and they have a really strong use case and they've done some like testing and working with IPFS folks, and actually, Ben from Haifa, like the worker, also has worked with them. And they did a launch this year, like so there are some of these use cases but it like, yeah, where there aren't, there aren't like a huge amount of them there's like a lot of like interesting apps that are being built but there are. There isn't totally these like kind of fully like thickened, like rich context where like this is how this, like, you know, this is a space to think about the implications of this and how it's used and like understand how we should think about building this out. I mean, I, for what it's worth I feel like that I think there could be another season or another term I don't know what the right phrase is, but like definitely like read, like I may be a reimagined version of it. Can I am, I'm going to suggest of, I'll do like a mild intervention in this moment here. If you'll allow me, I'd like to interrogate the two of you using nine wise, which is another helpful liberating structure. And maybe we can get at why data together. I'd like to kind of some like bedrock material for why data together so like, I heard a lot of context there that was super helpful in kind of understanding the overlap of these different spaces and kind of also early intentions and and early intentions that were held by dawn to Kelsey and I feel like getting at your guys is shared why would be really helpful for whoever watches this recording. And then we could also leap off of that and into spiral journal to have like reflective close out on. So how do you any objections to that proposal for the remainder of our meeting. Great. Always good to have a facilitator in the room. So, So yeah, let's start why, why data together. Why, why the purpose around data together. I feel like Kelsey should go for a very basic thing for me is that I really like it. I feel like the most intellectually stimulated in this space that I get to be because I'm talking to all these people who like, who are working on really real things. And have all this theoretical background and it's perspectives that I haven't heard and I can watch them have perspectives here perspective that they've never heard. And it's, it's kind of amazing. Kind of just like unlocks and shifts concepts in my head and I can feel it happening and during these conversations. I guess, again, I'll, I'll speak for me as well. I think it's actually not too dissimilar of a reason why data together. The meat was that it felt like there was a gap between time the way we were trying to use these technologies and decentralizing their technologies. And like, kind of like the promise we could see in these technologies and like the like rich and careful and like nuance like ways that we from an edgy side, we're like thinking about justice around data. And, and so I think it was like a bit for me like a way to like have conversations that help deem mystify the technology or like the like kind of remove some of that lure of the technology from folks who maybe don't build it as much and then also have the people who build it, like, have that connection into understanding some of these like kind of which I think are like very important kind of like framings or approaches or like, you know, critical understandings that like inform action. So it's kind of like a way to have disparate uses like meat and coming. Okay, I hear, I hear similarity but also interesting difference there, or at least like additional concepts like this notion that there's a gap that's being filled that Don mentioned, and then Kelsey, I think a lot of what you said around just this like the first group of folk coming together to think together about these questions. There's a lot in line there with what Don was just saying I think. So, why is that important. It's one of the things where, like, I think this technology is, is like interesting enough that it's going to get built, and I'm going to, I'm afraid that it's going to be built without all of the perspectives that it needs. And one of the things that makes the space cool is that a lot of the people in it, a lot of the base technologists even are dreaming the same dreams that I am in terms of what our society can be. And if we, if we treat each other differently, if we, if we hold things differently, and there's this deep interest that's held in having this like this, this other world made possible to borrow language by technology, but there's, there's also, I mean, Don had this exactly right and I would, you know, this has been in my head to there is this big gap where like they want the right things, but we don't have all the people who need to be in the room to make those things happen. We don't have all the people in our room either, but we try to bring it in at least through text. Yeah, I would, I would say, probably it feels very similar to me. I think it's important because if these technologies have are to meet the potential that I think the creators desire for them and the users and those who are like in this decentralized and critical space. What they, I worry that they won't do it. If it happens through like tech as usual being built, which either through like, say Silicon Valley style, or even the existing norms and paradigms and open source and open culture, I think are insufficient. And there are kind of a rich array of other ways of imagining otherwise and alternatives that have existed for a long time but also are being actively enacted in grassroots movements, activist spaces and and that tie into, you know, areas in academia that are not often in conversation with like the technical. That makes sense. So, for me, it's about like trying to attach those conversations. And I think like you see certain ones get attached and are in vogue like say something like digital Commons like I think like Commons now has like occupies. That is like an imaginary sort of like is is present enough that I think it is engaged with but like to me it's like, what about things like abolition and abolitionist like tools or like data sovereignty like drawing from like indigenous like sovereignty and that as like an understanding or like anti colonial and decolonial like ways of thinking, or sort of like just transition or transfer more like a transformation approach which like can draw from sustainability and like just sustainability. I guess spaces like there's just so many of those that I think offer something really rewarding. And I would like to see those ideas circulate. Why is this important. I think there's a lot of I mean I know there's a lot of historical reasons why these perspectives aren't in the room. And I think that there's a lot of varied history to the internet that we have. But the people building it are not fundamentally that different, like building our new internet are not fundamentally that different from the people who built the other one. I think this is kind of the difference between not racist and anti racist right like you have to do some used to do a lot of conscious work. If you're looking to actually address and not have an equity in a system that starts and not equitable. So I think that that's sort of the, the concern with kind of just like letting, letting that gap exist or letting, letting the people who are build it decide what to do, there's even like, there's even really small things about open source where that gets measured get gets managed but then there's also like this, you know I've been an engineer in a room full of engineers who are certain that nothing matters but the engineering and that company failed because we never hired a marketing person. And like, there's a lot of that sentiment and open source and there's this, there's this beautiful feeling that anyone could contribute. But that has to be anyone who's able to make a get hub commit in the source code and that is really a small anyone. You can't even have a designer say hey this should look like this and then do it. You're still reliant on the people who write the code and the people who write the code we already know is a pretty small demographic that has a lot of skew in it. And if that's who builds it, especially if they build an open source they're going to build it around what they want and what they need and what their passions are unless they're like, unless they have a really good reason not to. Yeah, I mean so I think it again feels very similar my answer about why these things are important is like I think we're at a moment, we're at multiple moments of pressing need. And, and I think that like, you know, dirt this sort of where it feels like there's no going back to normal in those domains is like, very apparent. And so I think about how like to take that seriously, we have to like rethink like the modes, the ways that we produce like knowledge or the ways that we produce these systems ways that we produce these technologies. Yeah. I think a lot about how to build these technologies, which I think are an attempt, maybe like a parallel attempt to others to actually think about a pluralistic future we could live in. We have to build in ways that escape that sort of like a tech, you know, determinist kind of like, or like way that like mystifies them as technology. And I don't, it's like, I don't think we can do that with the existing tools so we have to like do that horrible like messy process of like, work with the tools we've got which kind of suck and build new tools at the same time that we're trying to like make this new world that we want. But we have to try. I don't know. Or like what's the alternative is not trying and I'm not prepared to do that. Yeah. I'm going to ask you why Don, and you go first this time. Why, why all of what you said no going but we have to rethink the way as we reproduce knowledges and technologies to build a pluralistic future away from techno determinism. Why, why is that important. Why, why. I think we have at this point, like heartbreaking and and overly documented evidence of the damage that these systems have caused. And I, and like that that harm, you know, and I think that I think that the like, I don't know if the way out is to abandon everything like I'm not I don't think we can just like critique our way out of this situation. I think what we've developed is like an extremely robust set of ways to critique these systems or at least certain areas of academia have that I like draw from. And I am super indebted to those as like ways of ways of seeing but I am committed to like also thinking about how to make it so those critiques don't have to be used because we aren't in that world anymore. And I think so my why would be like that that that rethinking is the way I think we get out of it. I have a sort of personal dichotomy that I've probably mentioned in this group before but this idea of work to change the world. I use the dichotomy of sort of frontliners and utopians. And you really do need both you need people fighting, like actively engaged with the world as it is, and seeking change, like saying hey, something else is better and we should work for it and we should have it. And there's also this other set of people, the utopians are are in the space of saying, hey, I think that we can try it like let's start with the world we want like let's make an assumption that let's make an assumption that it is possible. How do we, how do we live it right now and how do we iterate on those systems so that there is something specific that we're that has proven that we're aiming for. And I'm much more of a utopian. And I think that, like what Don was saying about rethinking the technologies that are imperfect, and having to use them while we rebuild. That's exactly that that's saying, that's saying, like, okay, if this were perfect what would it be. And how do we, how do we get to that as soon as we possibly can how can we, how can we actually live our values. Yeah. Okay. Didn't finish that note but I'm going to put it in there anyways. So I think like, we're getting deeper into some layers here. There's a lot going on around avoiding the damages and harm caused by the previous system but also being trapped in this funny dichotomy where we have to use those same tools from the previous system to rebuild the new one. And then this interesting notion of the front lines and the utopians. I think that I think there's a lot of fruitful play space in in these ideas here like we can stop here and build out a future present scenario, but I want to go a little deeper. So, um, so like, why data together in the context of all of these things why data together is nine wise actually. But we will go through. I can try going first. Like, not that I actually have like a good answer. I guess I just think that data together is. I mean, I think it started as a place where there was like a confluence of those things meeting right like there was like we were like building the bridge to steps in front of us. We were like doing like eight other things and we were like trying to grapple with what it all meant. And so like data together was like us being like what like this is the space that we're basically that's how it started and we were like we need to like, we're like building this tech we need a place to understand like how we built it. Like, I mean, there's these dusty get hungry posts kicking around. There's like, and then there was like, oh, like we're realizing that like, even how we think about what could at face value appear to be pretty innocuous concepts like data is not innocuous at all right and there's so much to unpack there that is like rich and fruitful conversations we need to have like those conversations to and then also it was like a way to think like to be in that shared space together and think about kind of like think and do together. Now my frame kind of zoomed out a bit back to why data together but why all of these things that have been discussed so far in relationship to this entity. Kelsey, I think I think Don you're getting at it like you you you brought it down but but why is this important why does this matter. Why I mean that that confluence where it is is kind of at the crux of it right there. There are all these amazing concepts and like, there's nothing new in philosophy you know, like, I don't know I read the biography of Mary will stand craft who wrote the rights of women and like decided to go be a war journalist at the French Revolution and like, she was like deeply anti marriage and like all this other shit that you just really don't know how to be at that time and you're like still not really and like, nothing is new right like somebody was already living this, this kind of crazy radical future way back then and I like love to think about her in that context. So, I don't think we're going to be like, I don't think we're going to be inventing something here, but I think that in our modern context. We need to find the ideas that we need in the moment. And I think that that's not available, especially in technology spaces there's like people who do a lot of tech spend a lot of time learning how to do it. And it's, it's, you know, I've personally spent all day trying to figure out how to fix one line of code right like, or how to like even just trying to understand the documentation on one function within one line of code. It's very hard and you are seldom invited to zoom out and say, what is the context of my work. What is the purpose of this, and am I building, am I building something in a world that I want I mean like the concept of work we discussed that here too but like the concept of work is challenging because most people spend all of their work in busyness, without ever saying, like this thing that I'm spending the majority of my energy on. Do I care what it does, like, it makes me money is that what I'm looking for. And this, this data together space, it's that invitation it says hey, whatever it is you're doing. Have you thought about it, like have you thought about it on a grand scale have you looked at, have you looked at what it's for in a long time. And it's an invitation to see maybe ideas that nobody ever showed to you because you were a code monkey or maybe it's, you know, you actually getting to talk to technologists about the thing you've been fighting for like on the streets for years. And you've just never like, you know, maybe you protested Google or Facebook, like with a picket sign but you probably never talked to the engineer and said hey, like, why didn't you do this thing better. And this is the kind of space, I want it to be the kind of space where that can happen where you can say hey like, you know you really can't make that decision because it'll impact my life. And I need you to know that like, yeah. And I think that that I think that in general intersectionality of, of like backgrounds, when they can be focused, productively on a topic can be really really fruitful for for everyone involved, just because it's often new for each person in some way. Yeah, I want to I feel like there's two, this is like a non answer. I'm just gonna like jump on what Kelsey said but I think there's two things in there which really resonated the first one is this idea of like, like, meeting ideas for the moment almost it's like, I think it's an under I think sometimes we've under resourced certain like, professions I don't think it always has to be professionalized with certain forms of like production with like, all of the ideas that I think could make it like that could give them the space for things to be better so it's like a lot of work for folks or in those spaces to like, search out and then engage with those ideas I mean I think you see that like, I don't know like I think people do that with technology and people do that with whether they identify as a technologist or an artist or a researcher but I do feel like there is like a bit of a it's like a tough it's tough work like it's taken up by an individual in some cases, or like they have to build that community around them to do that work. Like, my dream would be that there is that like way that. Yeah, like kind of like those ideas like those ideas are in some ways like more ready to hand. And if not your hand there's like a way that we can like share I did like hand off ideas to each other at the right moment, you know, and they're like, it's a good time, but also the other part of it which I think is super important to is like that it's not really like a one sided. I don't want to, I mean, I'm nervous that maybe I frame things in such a way where I'm like, Oh, only the technologists have to learn from like people who are like really theoretical or people who are activists. I actually think that like concretely having to grapple with why how things are built is actually like so important to thinking about how to build them better. And so there's that like that it's like actually that like putting into practice moment which is which I think actually is a question for data together is like if we're not doing the putting into practice in data together now it's like how do we support people as they take things back to their I feel like edgy maybe has like a good conduit because of the way that we've like facilitated that group. But if the rest of the people coming into this space or maybe a little more distributed like for, sorry, for a lack of a better term, like for me, for I'm not active and edgy like I'm a happy alum, but I'm not actually like in doing that kind of day to day project work it's like thinking about how to connect it back into the stuff I do. I think is maybe a question, because I think that actually is a way to keep this really resonant and or like kind of like having that importance being realized more broadly. I go deeper but I won't because we won't have time for the other thing. So this is, this is really good. There's a lot here. Yeah, and there's lots of different directions that that we could go, we could go into another call where we do something called future present where we sketch out where you guys sketch out a scenario for what that future ideal utopian state looks like. And then we create a fun breakout group role play activity around that that gets everybody feeling as if they exist in that future state and they're asking the elders who made that future state happen how they did that. And then from that you get a whole conversation around. Oh wow like it felt really possible. But then also a sense of like, and we talked about tangible ways that we achieved that. So there's there's an interesting exercise there that could happen with like more people. And, and right now, why don't we just like slow things down and get out of a talking space together. And just after kind of all of that flurry of ideas that were there just kind of ground them a bit and this exercise is super simple for that. And it's only for us individually so we don't share any of this unless we really want to. But you have to have a pen and a piece of paper to do it so I need to actually go and grab that myself so I'll be right back. So, I'm going to set my timer for a couple minutes here. And this is really simple instruction to start us out. We're just going to take our piece of paper and our pencil or pen and I want you to draw just like quadrants so like, like that. And then like that. And we're going to start in the middle, the very center. And for the next two minutes, I want you to slowly draw a spiral as tight as you can. So like try to keep it as tight as possible and slowly spiral out. We're just going to spend two minutes quietly doing that, starting now. So now for each quadrant that we have there. We're just going to take a few minutes for each one to respond to the four questions that we have. I'll just pop them into chat as I say them out. And our first one is my body is telling me. So these are actually there are questions their sentences that you complete. My body is telling me, I'll give us a couple minutes for each of these. Okay, so the next question here, we're going to use together, or sorry, sentence that we're going to complete together. When I listen, the quiet voice is saying, okay. Our next one here. If we do nothing. The worst thing that can happen for us is, and our last question. When all is said and done. I want, when all is said and done, I want. Okay. Just echoing what Kelsey said in chat for the communication wound up being kind of a rich one, but I feel like also stuff like you step back a little bit, and I feel like I was, I'm curious, your thoughts. So I'm really excited about this idea of thinking about another version of data. My thoughts in relationship to the conversation that you guys were having. You know, I feel like I'm always, always trying to identify projects of commenting that I want to contribute. I want to contribute to in some way. And the data together project is one of those I think it's very interesting to me because it speaks to a different way that we can be designing things in the future. These spaces that we interact with online. And so that's exciting to me. And so I feel energized by a lot of the purpose that you guys have brought to this conversation. And I think that, you know, I'd be more than happy to help in that kind of exploratory discovery process with yourselves and with others to like define what data together looks like in 2021. I have a slack reminder that keeps popping up that says that we're supposed to have a fourth quarter data together meeting the planner next projects and next year. And I don't want to just be indebted to it, but I'm wondering if I could find a good space to get people to say yes, I really will be there. And I'm just wondering if we can bring together like the people who I know care about this space and just don't always have the time to come. And like have them move through this sort of exercise or I know Stephen you've got like so many beautiful micro structures for facilitating a group through through this sort of thing. And I think that's something that you be wanting to take on part of that's that that process of helping us figure out what we are. I know Don the reading group started because people are trying to identify what exactly are data together as principles. What is this space. It's still, it's still that of like, maybe having that planning call be a space to have some bit of this but then yeah the question like how to, I'm so nervous to ask people to do anything right now. Just because of the world we're in so how to do that. That's the like the tricky part. The invitation is everything. The invitation is is where it becomes something or doesn't given the world we live in right now and I would say like you have you have within this chat log here you have the words and the ideas that you can use for that invitation. I have, I feel like the outcome of tonight and whatever how many days after tonight. There will be a different resonance to the words depending on what happens there and that wider polity. And I think both both outcomes are problematic in various hues. But we rest on our laurels of, you know, and so I think that with with the words that you guys have expressed here today and like thought through loud with me, you have like a really good start for an invitation that I think would, you know, in the context of what's happening over the next few weeks could could really like be appealing to lots of people. And I'd be happy to like craft elements of that invitation. But I feel like because I don't have a close tie to the source of data together and what it's all about. It will probably be pointless, you know, but I can, I can certainly contribute ideas about, you know, what we do if people like the invitation. There's lots of ideas there about what we can do so more than happy to like, you know, after you've issued the invitation that sounds like people like it. I'm more than happy to help like, okay, what should that like to our chunk of time be. I also feel hesitant to be like I don't think I, I think I was around at the beginning, but like, I also am not present in a lot of the ways that would help be like, I'm not the right voice to extend an invitation, you know, and or I'm not, I just feel like I'm not aware of the nuances of like how where things are at between all the different groups and like how this can be a productive space for edgy. Would you be a helpful editor though, Don? Yeah, sure. And I'm happy to like, I don't know, add some. But yeah, like if you want someone to just like do some word bomb it, I'm really good at that. I can copy at it. Yeah, I'm able to. Thank you guys. One of the things that I've been kind of waiting for with like the reason I have that slack reminder just still snooze is I'm waiting for it to not feel like oh no another thing. And that might be a while like it might be until next year. But I think that that moment will happen and I'm hoping that if that happens for me it might be happening for other people where either our world gets a little easier to live in or we get more used to the world but we're in enough that we we know how to work with it like I don't want to extend an invitation into a space where people will feel obliged to say yes. And so that's my biggest concern. I think they're like the timing is good. Like, I think there's so many unknowns like tonight, plus the next X number of weeks like I actually think it's kind of unclear how many weeks it'll be. But there is going to be some galvanizing in one direction or another, I guess like politically, and that in a way that really will influence edgy. And so one of the key like holders of this space. But that also like with the Filecoin launch and some other things, like I just feel like there's like maybe, yeah, like that in a few weeks, you'll have a better sense of that timing of like, yeah, that conversation could happen. One thing I really like about this data together spaces that we do move slow and we're okay with that where like edgy might need to be reactive, but data together is a bigger conceptual space and it's okay to do. Yeah, I don't hold over much longer already for over but we can we can call it I mean it feels pretty good. I feel like there's like a good sense of understanding like ripeness around this. You know, and, and yeah, I look forward to being part of that slow build, and I'm more than happy to help with some ideas about how we can generatively collaborate when when we get more people in that setting. So count count me in from that in that angle for sure. Yeah, and me me too. And I think also, if it's next year, I think that's fine. I feel like just being like, Oh, that can be a 2021 thing is like already a thing I've said to myself, many times, like last two weeks. Well, that sounds lovely. Well, thanks you to I know this wasn't the polity discussion you were intending, but I feel like I have a good sense of the data together polity here. So, this is really helpful. That's it. That's exactly it. There you go. Okay, I'm going to. Yeah, I've saved this file. Thank you. And I'll share it with you, Kelsey. Thank you. Well, I think they are such a great conversation. Yeah, your evening slash late afternoon. I don't know. Yeah, some like that. All right, everybody. Bye.