 this is Global Connections and today we're going to talk about where does Mongolia stand in every which way and what is its presence in the United States with Ralph Winnie who consorts and confers with Mongolians all the time in these conferences he does in Washington these academic conferences and one was recently I guess it was in April late April it was the it was a conference about Mongolia then we have our regular contributors Stephanie Stolt-Alton so Ralph would you start by telling us about the conference you had in April late April with and about Mongolia in Washington yes thank you Jay the conference was sponsored by the Mongolia Society of the U.S. which is an organization designed to promote people-to-people exchanges in a relationship building between the United States and the nation of Mongolia so they have a conference every year where they bring the scholars and diplomats and business leaders together to promote the history and the culture and of the nation of Mongolia which is a really fascinating connection with the United States even though it was a former communist country the people were never anti-american they were very pro-united states and Mongolia has maintained this relationship with Russia China and the United States in a very unique dynamic way where they can promote and establish their cultural and business ties and at the same time be a catalyst for bridge building and peace you know when North Korea was getting very agitated you know setting off rockets as we saw Mongolia was one of the partners that the United States would look to to see about helping make a bridge to have a to have a dialogue between the United States you know I I recall that Mongolia is in fact independent correct recall that independence is not easy just like democracy in general is not easy and because it's surrounded with you know countries that would like to take a piece of the resource or you know do something invasive against Mongolia it manages through you know diplomatic strategies and otherwise remarkably to stay independent even after all these years of exercising those strategies it is still independent which is to its credit how does it do that Ralph well I think it starts with an understanding how important it is to maintain strong diplomatic ties with China Russia and the United States so they will send their their young people to study and to be able to train and learn in United States Russia and China so they will be able to develop the personal professional relationships that are necessary when they return to Mongolia and then enter into the diplomatic corps. Yeah Ralph how did Mongolia emerge as an entity sandwiched between Russia and China I mean looking at the map is it's just like full alert DEF CON 5 I mean how did they man is this because of the Genghis Khan history what can you well it started with Genghis Khan but there was a series of power bargains that the Mongolians had with China but more important Russia and also Japan you know to stay engaged and to protect and promote their sovereignty people forget you know that China was not a powerhouse it was considered the sick man of Asia and other countries were trying to occupy it so they were very the Mongolians are very conscious of that happening to them so they would forge strategic alliances with the Americans the Europeans and the Russians to prevent that from happening. You know before the show Stephanie you were talking about the you were talking about the resources in Mongolia which are very attractive to you know their neighbors and to countries around the world Stephanie can you list some and then Ralph can give us more on that. Yes that's so interesting because they have considerable gold resources copper coal they've got uranium and tin and tungsten and a couple of other things that I don't know too much about but that can be an advantage and a disadvantage so have they are they important to Russia and China for those resources and has that protected them or how it has those work well they they've been able to sign major deals with Russia China and the United States to harness and use the resources in a way that is going to be beneficial for Mongolia as well as their joint venture partners whether it's you know the United States China or Russia I mean I think we've got in some of our major companies whether it's Caterbillar or Monsanto or the main mining top mining companies you know in there to really harness and leverage the resources I think another strong element that the Mongolians are able to bring to the table is that they were very aggressive in wanting to be part of the Millennium Challenge Compact the Millennium Challenge Corporation that the United States established what is that well it was a compact that was set up under the Bush administration as a way to reward countries that promoted human rights and democracy and they would be given funding for different projects and I had a chance you know when I worked at a firm back in 2004 to be able to take a look at their tax treaty that they were setting up between the United States and Mongolia and also the compact as they were preparing to submit the compact to the Millennium Challenge Corporation the firm that I worked with had a relationship not only with an office in China but there was a firm client that was looking to expand their forging factory operations from China into Mongolia and that's what took me into Mongolia to sort of get the layout of the land and see what would be available so I went to the tax and trade office to look at what tax breaks and different incentives might be available for this company which is a forging factory operation out of California to see you know whatever would be beneficial for them to move their operations out of China into Mongolia so I was able to find some land where they could have leased and I was able to witness several kind of joint ventures but to one was a a German and Austrian brewery you know with that that had partnered with the Mongolian brewery and another one was the Army Medical Hospital you know because getting new and updated medical equipment was very very important for the Mongolians and that's another area where they've been able to partner with the United States working with Christian churches and bringing over doctors and seeking medical equipment to help improve the quality of their medical system in Mongolia and you go to the hospital in Mongolia very clean the doctors are well educated well trained they just don't have the basic necessities they were relying on Russian equipment so part of the Millennium Challenge Corporation was to give them the funding where they can grow and expand you know their healthcare their infrastructure their IT and to continue to modernize and to stay engaged with the US as a trusted and reliable partner you know we think of Mongolia as something out of the 19th century we think of the Yurts we think of you know large areas of land and a spectacular is a scenery but there's nothing much going on there we don't think of them as high tech we don't think of them as akamai and business issues we don't think of them as strong in personalities relationships including foreign foreign relationship right you know political consciousness and you you are painting a picture here that's entirely different than you know the picture that we traditionally have about Mongolia I will the rush yeah the Mongolians took great pride in promoting education and workforce development and it started under their relationship and engagement with Russia the Russians set up an elaborate network of schools and infrastructure projects within the country and the Mongolians when they opened up to the west in the early 90s they really grew that really grew and expanded with their relationship with the United States and bringing in some of the major companies so you have a well educated well trained workforce you've got a lot of women that have been in positions of power there and you've got sort of a mindset and an openness to really engage and trade with the west you know and they had they were they many of them trained in Moscow initially under the old generation I studied in Moscow State University and that really gave me an entree when I went to Mongolia because many of their top leaders had trained there so having Russian there was helpful but you could sense there was a move away from Russia and more towards engagement with the West with the United States and Western Europe um is that is that because of is that because of is that because of Ukraine real I mean you know with this conference you had where everybody was there in April yeah um was in the you know in the lap of the of the Ukraine invasion and there must have been discussions about Russia as um a pariah um and trying to manipulate and invade and um you know um do destruction in Ukraine so query what what were the what did what did the Mongolians say about that did they tell you how they felt about it they were a little coy about it I think they are supportive of Ukraine but they don't want to antagonize Russia and they certainly want to keep strong relations with the United States so anytime you talk with them it's about how can we grow and develop our economy how can we preserve and protect our culture so they had um they talked about Mongolian art they talked about um this particular Mongolia Mongolian ferret that was endangered they cannot be domesticated um and then we had my presentation my research associate and I we presented on the Mongolia's you know independence from China and then there was an opportunity to engage with the diplomatic community so there were the ambassador of Mongolia was there and several former diplomats that had served in Mongolia there's an organization called the Zurich Foundation that I was on the board of many many years ago and that was designed to help that bridge between the United States and Mongolia on the um you know personal private side to help support and promote the Mongolian culture you know on the personal private side Mongolian culture I met a retired chief justice of the Mongolian supreme court yeah um we went to a restaurant here in Honolulu together and I found two things significant about him number one um he was well well educated in English he could speak English and the other is he had a terrific sense of humor and I suppose I can also say he had a powerful personality in other words if you put him at a negotiating table he'd be the kind of um you know person who could negotiate a deal and it would be rational right it would be right up to you know global standards so you know it seems to me that's one you know that combination of skills is is a great success feature of for the Mongolians they can go talk to people they could make deals right you can't take advantage of them because they're akamai about those things right right yeah you're absolutely correct and that started when they were trained under the former Soviet system which taught them to be very akamai and very tough and aggressive but at the same time they used that in a very positive way whereas you said they don't lose their sense of humor um and they do and they engage in a way where they're not gratuitous to sleep insulting people they're not looking down on another culture which traditionally the russians had done towards the chinese and and two other um former soviet bloc republics and to many of the eastern european countries where russian is not favored anymore there was a language that was forced on them so the mongolians really utilized the best that the russian system could offer in terms of education and know how um and they have taken it in a way where they can really succeed on the diplomatic fronts and that's when i brought up north korea north koreans can't dismiss them because they were they recognized that they were part of the old soviet system at the same time they they recognized that the mongolians um have to engage in trade with west so the mongolians don't look down on the north france so the mongolians are going to be more likely to get something out of north korea be able to least understand what the leadership is thinking and be able to help you know the united states when we're trying to engage and bring north korea to the table to bargain well even all of that given those skills and this remarkable remarkable orientation of mongolia to its neighbors and to the world um you know it really is an unusual situation and and remarkable with the sense that here's a landlocked country uh surrounded by people who you know could be aggressive with it um but it manages so stephanie um take a whack what should american foreign foreign policy vis-a-vis mongolia what should it be given all of those factors well it sounds like we are um partners in many ways there's lots of connections a lot a lot a lot a lot of uh loops and link right that's what they're trying to build on but right and on the personal front i wanted to say one of the things that the mongolians like to do is they like to sing and they like to dance so when we were at our reception um i sang along in mongolian and um met some new friends just dancing with several mongolians and they like that that's a way to develop that personal time and that's an indigeneity thing um so um but okay so i wanted to ask about the status of individuals so what what is the per capita income are these people um in and lifestyles that that are um comfortable what's their lifestyle like in the villages um it's still you know economics they have some economic challenges a lot of it has to do with the the the terrain the weather um it's traditionally been a very nomadic society so as they've had to stop being able to herd the animals and to move into the cities that's presented challenges there's been issues with pollution um and so that's why it's important to have america know how ingenuity and business mindsets over there where they can mentor and train and engage you know with mongolian companies well that blue for instance that you mentioned yes right you know so is that flourishing and so yeah that was flourishing i mean out um alcohol is a very big part of their society um you know vodka it's that comes from the russian system as well but um they routinely drink a lot of vodka and a lot of hard liquor so that was sort of a no-brainer to have that kind of a business yeah so it's like they're they're well right you know people yeah examining our relationship with them you know um you know to me any study of foreign policy has to be a look into the future right it has to you know you have to see where things are going and see the trends and see all the factors in play and all that and and it's to our advantage clearly to our advantage to have a uh sustainable relationship with mongolia and right now from what you say it sounds like we have a pretty good relationship but foreign policy is these days it's a function of the divisiveness that we see in government in this country and it's you know it's a function of people being ignorant of mongolia and what it should mean to us so my question to you is um if you were running the state department and who knows Ralph maybe one day um running the state department what kind of foreign policy would you would you um design for mongolia i would want the us to stay engage with them through um something like the millennium challenge corporation and to make sure that we have our state department diplomats our private sector actively and engaged not only in the cities but in the rural areas and providing advice and counsel and guidance to them there on the ground and to bring more and more mongolia students over to the united states to be trained and educated and to develop new technologies you know that would be beneficial for both the us and mongolia um also ensuring that there is access to minerals oil mining metallurgy textiles are very very important so we don't have to rely on specifically on china um but you can use mongolia certainly as a as a resource um not only on the economic side but on the diplomatic front once we continue to empower them and engender their respect and trust it's going to be very easy to integrate them into any kind of negotiation that we may have with um the russians the chinese and or the north koreans moving forward because that's going to be the key i had the for i was fortunate to meet the president of mongolia back in 2011 and that was sort of his vision i mean he had the notion of how to deal with the russians he spoke fluent russian but also respecting china on the border and also actively wanting to trade and engage with the united states so you have to recognize that the mongolian president whoever he may be in the near future is has to recognize the dynamics of the neighborhoods that he's surrounded by but at the same time really wants to to engage with the united states because that's where they consider the future to be united states is it politicized is it politicized i mean we have a a certain contingent of isolationists in in the country and in our government these days um are there people who would not want to have relations with mongolia i don't think you have really negative issues regarding mongolia they're not considered a threat they can be a powerful ally in many regards so i think as long as you know you can show them that we're producing results i mean the fact that millennia that mongolia was accepted i think as a second or third country to the millennium challenge corporation shows that they are a country that's you know committed to human rights democracy and western business practices what about western law not corrupt you know so that's the big issue that certain elements in the government in here have towards ukraine that they think that the government is very corrupt and we're throwing money down the drain there's you know we're not seeing or any results you don't won't have that with mongolia um and i think specifically getting them into the compact was that key um so moving that forward making sure we don't take our eye off the ball and that they don't revert back to any kind of system where there's graft and corruption is going to be key what about um what about their government is it representative government can you say it's a democratic government do they enjoy civil rights and freedom of the press yeah well yes they do yeah it's um i would say women have uh are in positions of power there i mean i do see that they're totally almost totally dependent on russia for energy so is that for the cities right how is it is it like a half half situation where the cities and then you have the yurt and the rural yeah you have the rural areas right yeah i would say well the cities while large i think there's still that rural population and that's where that's where you need to get the aid to is the people in the rural areas to move them out of poverty into the both class specifically that's what the chinese have been doing so you think you could use stimulus funding um to really you know establish elaborate freeway system setting up power grids creating new sectors of business development opportunity by going into underdeveloped areas well did you mention that they're not able to herd have horses any longer did you say something well they they still do but it's it'll it's getting harder because you know the nomadic life it's it's hard when you have to fence things because of modernity yeah modernity right so they're kind of balancing that because they recognize they have a huge you know this that's their culture was um they're very nomadic and that's changed and it's changed over a fairly short period of time it has yeah so that prudence challenges and opportunities at the same time that i manage the risks and leverage the benefits you know i couldn't tell from the maps that i saw now is would you say that that the holy is half the size of ukraine um is can you just give up uh uh yeah i would say that's all right accurate yeah and so why it is not in any way a threat to china or russia right that they are under control so they're safe right right now china has sort of used up their you know mongolian textile industry has almost been absorbed into china so that was a challenge for them oh so they are are you saying they um the china is is um buying their manufactured textiles their textiles yeah they're cheaper the rugs so that can present some challenges for them so they're not a threat i mean they're a great source of opportunity for a lot of for for countries well china has been outsourcing manufacturing for the last couple of years and then that's got to be part of it right a couple of other couple of other questions come to mind and one of them is the exchange of people i mean are americans going to mongolia are they traveling as tourists there is it a good experience are mongolians coming to the united states and and seeking visas and immigration possibilities i think the mongolians are coming to the us to study and many of them do stay as far as people going to mongolia it really needs to pick up it's not as easy to get to i was fortunate to go because i was already in china at the time and it just became easy to fly from beijing and to lombards and spend a week there so there are mongolia travel clubs travel agencies that you can go through that'll plan trips for you to go and especially in the summer to be in it to live in a year and and to you know be able to spend time backpacking and touring the country and that's that's going to be important i think because our soft power i think is one of our most invaluable resources and as a force for good when they meet americans you know then they become inspired and want to be able to come over here and to to learn about our culture so yeah um but they've also got to look at the tax breaks and different incentives for companies to be able to want to you know set up business opportunities there and that's going to be key under any kind of government in mongolia make it as affordable as possible in in various places in the world and in asia there are economic groups of of countries like azion would be a good example of that is mongolia a member of any such group of countries that trying to um do economic exchange and collaboration i think they would they work do they work directly with russia china united states in europe so it's bilateral bilateral no just yeah right yeah um you know they're they want to do as much as they can to have positive economic and diplomatic relations with different countries yeah well what about corrigis stan is their neighbor too right that isn't one of the stan that's closest to herga stan herga stan now somebody got bells ringing there there's bells ringing i will have to click this out oh but it sounds like a telephone going oh okay is that yours Stephanie no it's no no maybe it was a call from someone in mongolia i don't know dialing into your show well we're about we're about done you guys anyway so let me let me ask um hopefully we will not have bells ringing let me ask ross what would you what would you leave with our viewers and listeners um how they should see mongolia how they should see it in their world view how should it see the mongolians and the mongolian culture and the achievements of mongolia well on a personal level i think the mongolians they are a really fun loving people they like to sing they like to dance they're very open they're very friendly um they're also a little shy you know because especially if they further they come over to the united states for the first time it's a very different experience for them but um i've met many of them through the sport of wrestling um as you know i was a former wrestler and that's been one of i thought you were a lawyer in an academician i sure am you know but i can be very dangerous as a wrestler and a lawyer yeah so there are mongolians in our wrestling club that come and it's a great way to get to know them on that personal level whether through it's a sport or just through their their ancient mongolian dancing and and music um on a professional level um they're very sharp talented smart people as jay has laid out in this show um they've you know understood how to engage in the russian system that you know they know how to trade and engage with china and they they are they are developing very strong relationships with the u.s and europe both on the personal and the professional side that is going to continue to grow and i think it's important for people in the west to really extend their hand in friendship to mongolia that's moving in the direction of economic peace and prosperity that's moved away from the graft and the corruption that really was indicative of many of the of the soviet union and the former soviet black countries as they've had to engage in their transition as they wanted to move in the direction of the west but they didn't have the the wherehow the business know how that's why i think it's going to be very important for small and medium-sized business to you know develop a personal mentorship partnerships with mongolian companies to help them grow and develop and expand their enterprises especially to grow a small business they will they will people in the community call it the international aware community in the u.s will have their chance because the mongolian conference that you organized in april is every year isn't it correct so they'll come back and there'll be other opportunities thank you very much bravo and thank you Stephanie aloha you're welcome thank you so much for watching think tech hawaii if you like what we do please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo you can also follow us on facebook instagram and linked in and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com mahalo