 Which one is this? This PC one. I'm pretty sure it didn't push anything there. Okay, because now they're off, but then it's... Yeah, I don't know what... Maybe it's on... Ah, the PCT. Okay, we'll be asking. We did... Yeah, you were writing that there was an animation, something like this? Yeah. We can have a short look. I've already forgotten when to put the slides at that point. Okay. So, I'll try it. So, is it okay like this? Yeah. Okay, very good. So, it's the sound, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Yes, the URL for this game. Okay. So, what do we need to do with that? So, I can win, but that doesn't fit. Ah, okay, maybe I can... Can I take this? I think you should put everything on the screen. Yes, probably. Is this good? No, this one, I think it's from Guna. So, I close. Yeah. Presentations, photo agenda. So, you're going to be running this thing because the chair people probably won't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but... It's not my laptop. I'm not going to delete all this stuff. No, no, but somebody needs to find my phone. Yes. Yes, yes. I'll take care of it. So, you're going to take care of it? Yes, I'll take care of it. And you will do the introduction, right? Yeah. Because Jacob Cranett is not coming. Yeah, that's okay. He would be crazy if he could say... Just to say hello, yeah. And... There's one... There's no battery. I'll control it. Guna has many, but people have to know what life is like. Only that. This phone as well, but if you have... Yeah, only one. There's only one. So we had... Also for the kind of discussion... It was just one. Only one. So, is that true? I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're suggesting too. No. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just joking. We don't want to. Do you understand? Yes. I don't know. Probably it's not. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. How do I pronounce NOTHING? I don't know. I'm kidding, that's true. Shoot, to real world! Okay, that was true. Is that true? I don't know. So, it's supposed to use a brand option that works better than other popular things. I mean, there's actually a lot of things that you can do. Like, may I have those things for you? Yes, yes. We have to repeat ourselves. I hope we get out of the bus. Well, you're having a hard time. Yeah. So, I just want to aware that we're not in time. There's more there. I'm going to move soon. We're not allowed to do this. I'm going to be very caught. Good. But. Yeah. Yeah. So. But you are. Um, uh, uh, uh, uh, So if we, I mean, in the past, we've had projects that were not necessarily titled before and they've been massively open to others. So we have the, you know, it's our role to continue raising, you know, you're forgetting about this, you're forgetting about that. And luckily, you know, Jim Kemp has actually said that it's one of our twin goals in the Institute, of course. So we can no longer, I mean, you know that. And now it is strange, now it is much more strange than ever you've known in those years. And although she rejected it because there was not the opportunity to put it in English yet, so, you know. So it's, you know, as Eddie Ferris said at the time, it's like the World Bank is having more like a dispute. In this report. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's so many sessions on the program, on the Sustainable Development Bill. But you know, there's no change in it. No matter who you are. Well, since he came, it was unbelievable. No, it didn't get it. So, no, we really didn't take time to really... Thank you. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's true. And now, we have some questions for the folks who would like to speak to us. Absolutely. Let's start with the Swiss-Swedish-German. 16.30. Oh, we have to wake up the people. Maybe Tom will try to sing a jealous song. I don't know if you can hear me. We have a live stream. It's going to be all over the world. So please take your seats. So I'm not going to spend too much time. Just to tell you that my name is Arno Rose-Marron. I'm working at SEI. Just a little bit of business. For those that don't know, there's a Wi-Fi system in the building, and you can go on to SEI Guest and turn it on with the code Garnes on. Please use Twitter if you don't have it. Maybe this is your first chance. You'll figure out something. Take pictures, write a few wise words. There are two URLs for the live stream. The first one is a Stockholm University one. The second one is a tiny URL of that. That's the same one. The third one is actually a YouTube link. So it is on YouTube. The reason why we have the two systems is because YouTube is banned at the present time in Germany, and it's also banned in about six or eight other countries right now. So in order to get better coverage, we have these two links. So we probably will return to that picture. I'm not sure if you want to send these links to people in your network and you want them to look at this meeting. You're more than welcome to take either one of those, the blue one or the black one at the bottom. So I'll just leave that there just for a second. A bit of business. It is, of course, being recorded and it's being live streamed. So any discussion at all will have to be down with a microphone and there's only two that work. That's this one and this one. So when we're having panel meetings, so you'll have to share this microphone. It'll be a good way to do that. Or one panel member could come over here. Behind schedule. So I'm going to actually give the word to, I think it's Madeleine who's coming up now, who would like to just get some introductions from some of you, if not all of you. Madeleine, do you want me to? So yes. Well, I usually do this. This is my role at the Susana meeting. It's to greet you all very much, warm welcome to Stockholm. And it's always very nice to be able to do so when the sun is shining and the water is glimmering and blinking outside of our beautiful venues. We are really happy. We had had a very nice sign up for the meeting and we know that many are watching us and we will try to be as interactive and so tweet in and get the tweet flow going and you have the Susana hashtag and also what week. So they know that we are meeting and people will find their way here. This is a challenging year. We are in a very sustainable visual year. We are looking forward to new sustainable development goals which will be very challenging for us in the sanitation sector and many other sectors. You are now at SEI, which is a global institute taking, which I say, we do research on the environment and climate and we are always doing it in a very integrated way. And I think that is actually part of the game for the new sustainable development goals. And therefore I think it's very nice that we can have this meeting at SEI where we are so used to work across the disciplines and also to have discussion on what the new goals will entail for us as an alliance. This alliance was created 2007 before the international year of the sanitation and we have managed to keep it going. We don't have a big budget, but we have this annual meeting here at Stockholm and I'm so pleased because this is the eighth meeting I'm organizing. So a warm welcome to all of you and if you don't know me, I am Madeline and you see my name. So from now I think we will present ourselves a little bit why we are here actually and what is the role we are playing for making sanitation sustainable. So Elisabeth, please start. Hi, my name is Elisabeth Kvarnström and I work as a consultant these days. I used to be working with Madeline and Arno and everybody at SEI before. So I've been working with the Ecosandras program for a long time before. Hi everybody, I'm Arno Panesar and I'm working with GIZ in the Sustainable Sanitation Program. We were a few founding organizations, maybe 10, and GIZ was one of them. Good morning, everyone. My name is Thilo Panzerbieter. I'm the director of the German Toilet Organization, chair of the German Wash Network of 20 German NGOs and we were one of the founding members also of Susanna in the meeting in 2007. Hi, good morning. My name is Lisa Burgers. I'm leading the toilet team in UNICEF, New York, returning to New York after 10 years in the field, mainly India and Afghanistan over the last years. And I'm replacing Therese Dooley as far as that's possible. Yeah, my name is Thomas Kluge. I'm first time here participating in the Susanna meeting. I'm coming from Frankfurt from the Institute for Social Ecological Research. We are strongly disciplinary working on water affairs, energy, mobility and science. My name is Angela Houston. I'm a PhD candidate at McGill University. I'm currently transitioning from drinking water analysis into sanitation analysis in Voya Cameroon. And it's my first Susanna meeting yesterday for the working group and it's great to be here. Hello, my name is Dorothy Spuller. I'm working for Seacorn on Sustainable Sanitation Water Management. I'm also a coach at Seawass, a PhD candidate at SUNDEC and I'm currently leading the Working Group 1 on capacity development. Good morning. I'm Cathy from Plan International UK. This is my first Susanna meeting. I'm Petter Nordquist. I've been around at NCI for a few years, some years ago and now I'm working as a primary school teacher. Hello. My name is Sarah. I'm a researcher from Lund University Centre for Sustainability Studies. First time I'm here. Good morning everyone. My name is Hannah Woodburn. I am the Acting Secretariat Director for the Global Public Private Partnership for Handwashing. This is my first Susanna meeting. Good morning. I'm Martin Gambrill. I'm a long time World Bank Water and Sanitation Specialist but I'm an incoming Lead Sanitation Specialist for the WSP, the Water and Sanitation Program. Happy to be here. Good morning everyone. My name is Alan Reed from Gold Island. I'm a regional wash coordinator in East Africa. This is my first time at Susanna meeting. Good morning everybody. Hans Schadtau is my name. Ecological Sanitation Club, Austria. I have been working since 15 years in dry toilets, mainly in Uganda. And this is my last week in Stockholm by moving to Congo, Kinshasa. Good morning everyone. I'm Casper Trimmer. I joined SCI a couple of years ago in the communications department and I'm currently doing communications with the Sustainable Sanitation Initiative. Good morning everyone. My name is Ryan Schweitzer. I work for Agua Consult, a small consulting firm that specializes in wash and disastrous reduction in the United Kingdom. Good morning. I'm Arnold Brekenhoff. I'm just having to be here because my wife is here. Is that... I'm interested in listening. I'm actually a biology teacher, so I might learn something. Good morning everyone. I'm Pritz Sallian from ISEN Associates. I'm a consultant working in the field of city sanitation planning. And I'm based in Kampala, Uganda. Hi. My name is Helfrid Schulta Hebrigen. I am based here in Stockholm at KTH Royal Institute of Technology. And I work more with drinking water, so I'm hoping to learn a lot today. And this is also my first Susanna meeting. Yes, good morning. My name is François Raquet. I actually work in the same building here downstairs with the Global Water Partnership. And I'm leading the Urban Water Security Program in the organization. And I just came back from Kinshasa, so we came with a lot to do on sanitation. So I hope to discuss with you later. Yes, hello everyone. My name is Guy Hutton. I'm senior economist in the World Bank's Water Global Practice. And I've been involved with Susanna for some years, more passively. I get all the emails. I occasionally log on and look at what's happening. And the cost, I was involved early on in the Costs and Economics Working Group. But yeah, I'm here just to see where it's at and to provide inputs. Hello everyone. My name is François Lucroft. I'm from the UK. I've actually been to a few Susanna meetings many years ago with IWA, but now I'm here with my own startup actually called Eco-Hiding Care. We're specializing in environmental sustainable products, mental hygiene products, specifically in disaster situations. So thank you. Good morning. I'm Shawna Curry from Cost Center for Affordable Water and Sanitation Technology based out of Calgary. And our focus is essentially on the education and training on appropriate technologies that people can do themselves. Good morning everybody. My name is Steph Smith. I'm a senior program officer at IRC in the Netherlands. Good morning everyone. My name is Ada Oko-Williams. I work for Water Raid as technical support manager based out in London. And I've been involved with Susanna for a long time now different days of... I mean, the very first meeting was at Bukina Faso and I left an impression and I stayed on. Good morning everyone. My name is Trevor Sarge and I've been looking after Susanna's secretariat operations for a couple of years so interacted with many of you. I'm happy to be here and happy to see all of you here. And also welcome to those that are watching online. Hi everyone. My name is Cecilia. I'm an independent consultant supporting GIZ in the SFD project funded by the Gates Foundation. Good morning. My name is Anne Katrin and I'm working for GIZ and the Susanna secretariat. Good morning. My name is Jean Lepeg. I'm a senior wash advisor for ACF France and ACF is co-coordinating the working group 12 on washing and nutrition. Good morning. My name is Rustam Gamisonia. I am from Georgia working for the NGO Rural Communities Development Agency working in close cooperation with GIZ and Women in Europe for a common future of water and sanitation issues. Thank you. Hi. Sorry I'm late. My name is Genevieve Kelly and I'm the wash coordinator for PSI. So this is a very good start. We know by experience that this room will be full at a certain moment during the day but people have for certain reasons delayed luggage. They have no clothes, whatever. We know they are coming in but hopefully with their clothes on. And so it is really lovely to have you all gathered. I think we have a very good start and so happy to now call on Trevor to give for all of you who are here for the first time a kind of overview of Susanna, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. Trevor. Welcome everyone from us. This is on the secretariat team. For a good few years it's been just me up here doing this presentation. But I'm very happy today that actually from March this year that Ann Katrin has joined our team in the sector program at GIZ and so now there is hopefully two friendly faces up here giving this overview presentation. So the first part of the presentation Ann Katrin will give and then I will give the second part of the presentation. So over to you. Welcome everybody here at Stockholm and also all those watching the live stream. So I'm really happy that I will give this overview presentation together with Trevor today. And well, yeah, I just start and we'll talk a little bit about what is Susanna, what are the objectives of Susanna about our mission statement. I will give an overview about our community online and offline about the joint roadmap and then Trevor will give you an update about what happened in the last year and what we were doing at the Susanna secretariat and with the Alliance in general. So Susanna, it's the short name for the Sustainable Sanitation Alliance and so Susanna it's an open network and our members and partners are working on viable and sustainable sanitation solution. So the network is made up of practitioners, policymakers, researchers and academics from different levels who are aiming to promote innovation and best practices and policy programming and implementation. And at the moment Susanna has about 5,200 members. So this June we had a small celebration celebrating our member number 5,000 with an open microphone webinar and we have about 250 partner organizations which are really from diverse really from small and large NGOs to the private sector to multilateral organization and research institution and governmental institutions as well. This is just an impression about our geographic outreach. So we have members from more than 150 countries. There are quite a few large blocks are from the United States from India and also the neighboring countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan. We have in Africa many members in Kenya and Nigeria for example. So at the end we can really say that we are a global community with the Susanna Alliance. This is the Susanna's mission statement and this was developed in a really participatory process with the core group but also it was discussed on the Susanna forum a few years ago, I think 2011-2012. And this mission statement it really builds upon the vision document which is the main document of the Susanna network and so yeah, this is, I can read it out. So Susanna is an open international alliance with members who are dedicated to understanding viable and sustainable sanitation solution. It links on the ground experiences with an engaged community made up of practitioners, policymakers, researchers and academics from different levels with the aim of promoting innovation and best practices in policy programming and implementation. Susanna is an online and offline community so these are a few of our possibilities to engage with us. We have a discussion forum which is very active and very well-moderated. We have a working group Wikis for joint collaboration. We introduced them recently. There's the main knowledge base of Susanna's library with case studies, applications, training materials and offline we have meetings like the meeting today, the 20 Susanna meeting and we're also organizing side events and seminars at conferences like the World Water Week. This is just a few numbers about the outreach of Susanna so our news mail which we send out about every three months is subscribed by about 6,500 people. We are using Facebook and Twitter so today I'm really happy that Cecilia she's monitoring our Twitter chat so we will give her a few occasions of small time slots so she can tell us what is going on on the Twitter chat so all those watching the live stream will hopefully participate via Twitter and sending us a few comments. Yeah, we have also the forum digest which is subscribed by about 4,500 members. The page views are about 50,000 per month on average and as I said before we have members from over 50 countries worldwide. One of the main pillars of Susanna are the working groups who are really focusing on a range of thematic topics ranging from capacity with development to Washington nutrition which is one of the newest working groups and the working groups, the communication channels for the working group, the main communication channel is the working group mailing list so the graph below just gives you an overview of how many people are subscribed to this mailing list or members of the mailing list of the working group and also all working groups they have a section on the discussion forum where they can work together and discuss relevant topics. Yes, and over the years Susanna has produced some publications and products and often a range of Susanna partners and organizations are working together on this publications and Susanna or the discussion forum and the cork hoop they are used as a sounding board and just ensuring that the publications really have a good high quality so those below are just an impression of a few of the publications which were developed over the years, we are from the water sanitation program and economic and financial analysis there is the compendium, we have the sustainable sanitation and cities publication which is actually output of the working group 6 on cities, there is another output from the working group 5 on productive sanitation systems, mainly by SEI on the guidelines of urine use sanitizer and from the working group 7 we have actually now two nice publications about sanitation in schools so we have them also outside on the table and the latest one was just produced a few just brand new actually so there are a few seminars on school sanitation taking place the world water week also the working group meeting so you will have the chance to get more information about this during the world water week and today we are at the 20 Susanna meeting this is just an overview of where we have met so far, there are quite a few took place in Stockholm so there is a long tradition of having those with SEI hosted by SEI here so thanks again to SEI Stockholm and lastly I just want to highlight that the main strategic document of the Susanna network is the roadmap and those are the topics which are outlined in the roadmap and which Susanna should focus on the next years so those are the SDGs for example also upscaling sanitation and nutrition, sanitation and emergencies functional sanitation and sanitation and we are quite happy that in the agenda of today most of these topics also have a role and we will have the chance to discuss them today so now I will hand over to Trevor who will give you an update about what happened in the last month and last year within Susanna okay thanks very much Ann Katrin maybe before I continue some questions at this stage on what Ann Katrin just presented happy to take them Hansa well I know you guys since a long time but not since you have been evolving a lot could you maybe explain a little bit about the secretariat how many people and how you work and in terms also the financial sources etc so how is this actually interesting though okay thank you okay yeah so you can start now so at the Susanna secretariat we are based in Eschborn and we are hosted by GIZ so we are about 2.5 person equivalents so it's mainly Trevor and me and with the support of interns and of course Anna running the secretariat and we get a funding from BMZ from the German ministry core funding but we also really rely on contributions of our partners who are dedicating their time but also financial resources to host those events or organize seminars or side events so we just have a base funding for the secretariat and what we are doing behind the scenes so we are doing the platform looking for the whole website and platform and organizing the Susanna meetings and also working together with the core group on looking for the future what are the future topics and what is the strategic direction which the Susanna network should move on to that what's happened in the last couple of years which has been really interesting is initially when you build up a network you've got to get a critical mass and now we are finally getting to a stage in the last couple of years where we have a critical mass and we are seeing that the different organizations and different members have got to know each other over the years and they have built up trust and now slowly but surely they are what we are terming or coining cooperation systems coming out of the alliance out of the network and these cooperation systems the first was the SCI grant that they got from the Gates Foundation to discuss all the innovations on the forum and basically that was then a cooperation system where SCI then had a mandate to implement a project and then use the network as part of executing that project and so there's a number of other examples like that and I think that's pretty exciting and also I think that's probably the way we're going to keep this alliance going forward, sustainable as well as also relevant and useful Ana would you like to add one second I would like to thank the German Ministry who from the beginning wanted was ready to support Susanna for quite some time and then the contract for the next three years from the sustainable sanitation program at GIZ saying that we will have the secretariat for another three years financed but there's as well the clear message from the Ministry saying that we don't want to be alone and we looked at what are the contributions like this meeting is work from SCI preparation, room, everything and then the forum discussions from the Gates fund we have a Gates project now around the excreta flow diagrams and so on we had many meetings out of the 20 meetings where there were strong local partners including WSP, UNICEF I think plan or whosoever who had reasons to make the meeting in their country to change the discourse so they were actually putting the manpower and as well the money to get it going so in one picture we could show that in the last year it's maybe 30% of the sort of contribution comes from the German Ministry and 70% comes from these kind of projects which are using the portal or which are using the network and I think to keep that direction is an important message as well to get it going and that's something we address more systematically now as well and that's what we do in that direction Thank you. Any other questions at this stage? Madeleine I just want to add that we also have been quite supportive all the time it's not for that but what has been also very helpful is that we have exchanged when we have project proposals and we have got funding for activities we have exchanged that with the Susanna Secretariat proposals for Susanna like this last I think we have now a sanitation initiative and Susanna is an important part of this because then we sent down our project document to Germany and it was a help also for you to convince the government in Germany Thanks for that question Francois just to say that a GWP are very welcome to bring your knowledge management questions to this workplace and I'd also encourage WSP and UNICEF and WaterAid and many of the major actors that have grown out of this forum that there's a worldwide it's a wide open porous working area so we encourage that Alright any more questions or shall I continue? Just pre-warning for those that have joined right from the beginning when I'm finished I'm going to go to all of you and ask you to also introduce yourselves like we've had around in the room so maybe there'll be a couple more that trickle in I'll just leave this to you This is just really a snapshot of some of the recent activity that has been happening on the platform online and offline a while ago we had many discussions actually to be frank it came out of the last meeting last year here where we said the discussion forum is great it's so vibrant and there's so much activity there but it's difficult to somehow sort of harvest these golden nuggets so to speak and could we put our brains together and think of maybe some way of being able to engage people in a very little time and also sort of harvest the golden nuggets that come out in discussions and so there we sat down with a number of people and basically worked on this thematic discussion series format where not to tell you the whole ins and outs of the format but the gist of it is basically through getting a coordinator on board and through secretariat support for the games so to speak of a discussion and then we set up we identify together with the network and with the working group leads we identify a topic that we think needs to be highlighted that maybe is slightly underrepresented on the forum and then approach thematic experts in that field and win them over telling them that we're not going to chew up too much of their time and so the first example of that which was a trial was very successful was the three week discussion that we had on the sanitation ladder and then basically what happened is we got three experts involved there was Elizabeth and Rickard and Patrick and we shaped up the discussion in a sounding board sort of call and then went ahead and actually had the discussion online, there was a lot of interactivity but of course this harvesting the golden nuggets really came when we did the summaries from each week and then ultimately at the very end put a synthesis together so not all of us have enough time to go and read 50 pages of discussion albeit that is very interesting but a really well written six page synthesis we can manage and so that's sort of the format that we are going forwards with and it seems to be as you'll see it seems to be picking up speed and people are getting quite excited about it so the first one was the sanitation ladder and then those knowledge management results or harvested golden nuggets then went into as working group four outputs we just recently after convincing a few people during Africa San we managed to put the urban sanitation finance from macro to micro level discussion together so over three weeks with six experts and the synthesis has just sort of hud off the press it was just finished I think on the 15th of August so that's all available online so if you were to go to the forum and just search in the search term for TDS so thematic discussion series you'd be able to find both those synthesis and as I said this I think is picking up steam because it's going forwards we're looking at the next discussion the next plan discussion that will be coming up around the sustainable development goals enough to end the sanitation crisis this is an initiative that Enwater Poverty has engaged with us at the secretariat on and I'm very happy to see Megan here at the back there she will introduce she was one of the ones that was late so she will introduce herself still and so that will be starting already on the first of September and we're running that for two weeks where we'll be looking at the sustainable development goals the indicator discussion which is coming up as well as the links to the human right to water and sanitation and then there's also in the pipeline at the moment discussions around doing one on menstrual hygiene management scaling up sanitation looking more sort of at the urban urban models and that kind of thing and then also one on washing nutrition as well as post-implementation monitoring and those are a whole bunch of them discussions with different organizations which I won't mention now because they're still being discussed and in the pipeline but that will probably be coming out in the next sort of half a year or so and then obviously well not obviously we're very happy from the secretary to put a lot of effort and a lot of conversations have happened in the background to really get working groups going and that's always a challenge and we have different levels of success over the years but working group seven has soldiered on as really one of one of our very most active working groups and moved on from the very successful publication schools publication that they produced last year and launched at the Stockholm World Water Week which took two years to put together and just one year to put two more together which is really really impressive so Claudia is also here, Claudia Ventlund at the back the working group lead who puts a lot of time and effort and energy into making this working group go forwards so we're really happy about those outputs as well and then we also since between Stockholm World Water Week last year and this year the working group 11 with BGR and others have also put together the output on how to keep groundwater drinkable from the sighting of sanitation systems from sources of groundwater and we have Ramon here welcome excellent so some of those are available and those will be going outside and then linked to the working group six there's the SFD promotion initiative that has a consortium working around it and they have been using the working group six of Cezanne really actively as a sounding board on how useful this diagram is and what needs to be also added to it and there's been a lot of dialogue around that which has been extremely positive and extremely useful extremely useful to the initiative as well and then during the Cezanne meeting already back in 2013 we were speaking about regional chapters and in 2014 we repeated that and now we're on the verge of launching the Indian chapter and there we're basically still in discussions with a number of actors and trying to firm that up and we'll see how that shapes up but there will be a contribution from Cezanne in this direction which I think is very positive as we all know India has a lot of energy at the moment and we've been to many different presentations and heard that key to making sanitation work is to have political will and now we have political will in India so we really have to rally together and push forwards on this and see if we can achieve all that needs to be achieved and then just a glance looking forwards you'll see on all the chairs there's an agenda from today's meeting in addition to that there's also a flyer of all the different Cezanne activities that are taking place during the week and there are very many of them we're involved from the secretary perspective in co-convening seven different seminars which are all listed there with a lot of Cezanne partners which is absolutely great and then we also have seven different working group meetings one has already taken place yesterday the productive sanitation meeting and we have another six working group meetings that are taking place during the week this here basically is an overview of what's going to happen today the different sessions and I think I'm more or less on time as well so that we've caught up a bit of time and we will have as you can read the other session two to six going on and please note there is a dinner for networking and socialising this evening and we'd love if as many of you as possible could attend that and then finally obviously during all the activity with all the different working group meetings we decided this year to do something a little bit different and that was actually to have a working group exchange meeting so that we can really harvest all the different discussions that have taken place during the week in one group because we've always said that the different working group meetings need to sort of cross-fertilise each other and have exchange and so this is what's going to be happening on Thursday from four to seven according to the conference organisers actually 1845 because then they'll start kicking us out the rooms so not to seven and that's it, thank you very much and now I'll just have a round for the folks that have arrived since this morning thank you very much Hi, I'm Jennifer McConville and I work at Schalmers Technological University on issues of nutrient recycling and water recycling I am Musa Trabo from UAPU Mali we are working in environmental protection I'm Vajrat Khaip also from Mali for Puata Hi, Catherine Farrar with the U.S. State Department I'm Julien Kajnaf also with the State Department's Office of Conservation and Water Karim Savadogo collaborating with SCI Bokina Faso I'm associate advisor with SCI I'm from WECF Women in Europe for a Common Future Hello, good morning I'm Kim Anderson, SCI as well leading the sanitation initiative Hi, I'm Megan McGarry I'm from Inwater Poverty so I hope you will join our next thematic discussions and I'm Linus Daggerskog SCI as well I'm also from BGR the Geological Survey from Germany That's everyone, thank you very much so without further ado I'd like to hand over to Elizabeth and Anna to start off the next session and I saw Graham somewhere I'll just go outside and find him Yes, okay so we go into the second part of the morning the session on the post-2050 landscape I'm sharing that together with Elizabeth but as she'll give the first presentation telling us about the thematic discussion on the sanitation ladder as well as something in the last year since many years we are thinking that the sanitation ladder has a potential and we always in Susanna said that if there's somebody who's doing it anyway we do the things that people of the network want to do and if they do it together it's better it's more effective that was the principle you made a publication on it so that was together with Patrick and others and Jennifer and so it's now good that you were as well ready to help us with the thematic discussion so that's the first input then actually Graham should tell us about the joint the global initiative Guy Hatten will tell us about economic perspectives and well let's see that Corinne Schuster about the Nexus perspective and then Kitsch, where's Kitsch let's pardon? well I could try to get some from half of mine oh there's Graham okay, just in time that's very cool the logic of okay so we hope to have Kitsch there with close from Amka telling us what was there in Dhaka and the Angkor declaration and why are we doing all this it's to give guidance and orientation to the network what are the current discussions we have great people here from different angles and to get some idea actually how should we go on so it might not be dive into detail of some discussions but always to reflect what's the potential of Susanna, how is it perceived what do we want what the sector needs and give some guidance for the next year or for the way forward and so that's the I think that's the motto for the whole day I'm happy about what we could bring together and that's at that point over to you Elisabeth I think every speaker will just say a sentence about himself and introduce him over to you thank you very much Arna few words about myself Elisabeth Kwanström I used to work for SCI for a long time I'm with the ECOSANDRES 1 and 2 so I've been accompanying the Susanna development to agree with the Francois Bricquet it's really useful these days it's really moved forward and it's proven to be a very good source of information and so on so my role here today to begin with is to talk a little bit about the functional sanitation ladder and I do this on behalf of myself and Richard Gina and Patrick Prakken who are absent from this meeting unfortunately and we were convinced by what Trevor said to kind of hold a thematic discussion on the functional sanitation ladder and I have to say they made an absolutely brilliant and excellent job of condensing down a very rich discussion into something very useful afterwards so they took the pain out of the game and they made something really good out of it so I can really encourage others to be involved in similar discussions it's going to be good things coming out of it and it's great to be back at SCI I left SCI four years ago or something like that so it's really good to be back to be here a few words on the sanitation ladder it's going to be a very short presentation it's going to be speed talking just a short background for you who may not know so much about the functional ladder and just a few words on the thematic discussion because if you're interested actually download these fantastic synthesis that the Susanna secretariat has provided and just a few ideas from Patrick and myself and Ricard on what could be done to further work with the functional ladder so a few words on the background the functional sanitation ladder was born out of a frustration over the JMP that is used to monitor well, you're all very familiar with this and it's used to monitor the achievements of the MDGs and as you know it's a technology focused ladder you get to improve sanitation if there is an infrastructure in place that is counted towards those four or five different solutions down there so it's not monitoring whether the infrastructure is used in the proper way and it's also not monitoring any infrastructure that is not on this particular list and this was very frustrating and people in here many of you will know how much hard work went into getting this ladder to accept composting latrines and toilets into the little list of approved technologies so there's been frustration about this technology focus and it's not only on the global level there's been frustration about this focus on technology I'm Swedish and we have had the same kind of regulation that has been technology focused for onsite sanitation treatment systems which would just allow two or three different treatment systems and if you would do something else it doesn't count and you don't get a planning permit and so on and so forth so early 2000 that actually changed in Sweden from 2006 we have regulation in Sweden that is function based so it doesn't matter which technology you use as long as you can fulfill the functions of the desired outcome of the sanitation system so to speak so a few colleagues of mine, Jennifer is one and myself and a few other sector colleagues decided to try and bring this function thinking to a JMP level and that's how the functional sanitation ladder was born I'm not sure how well you can read this but it's just showing that instead of counting infrastructure we would like to see the JMP processes to actually monitor the function of the system the outcome so to speak so different functions we organize in this ladder starts with excreta containment and then goes to safe access and to great water management and up all the way towards integrated resource management which is where Sweden is working and other countries for the MDGs you're down on excreta containment only if you have questions you can ask afterwards we don't have time for more detail now that's what I wanted to say so we presented this concept at the IWA Development Congress in 2009 in Mexico first time and then it was later published in 2011 and that's already four years ago almost five because it was the beginning of 2011 so what has happened afterwards well not so much there's been some pickup in the sector the Welthungerhilfe is a German NGO and they have they're using one version of the functions sanitation ladder and I know that IRC was inspired by our work in constructing their service ladder for the IRC wash cost project but nothing much has happened and at the same time 2011 to 2015 what are we doing we're saying goodbye to the MDGs and we're saying hello to the SDGs instead and you all know this but just to mention the three first targets I think there are two or three more of the SDGs one is target 6.1 is on water, target 6.2 is focusing on advocate sanitation and 6.3 is going all the way into wastewater management and there is a little bit more of function thinking in the SDGs they are mentioning in the texts behind the targets there is a mentioning of services for example which is kind of more looking into that you're actually doing something with your infrastructure not only having it but it's not maybe not so functional all the way as we would have wanted with a functional sanitation ladder something else that has happened which both Trevor and Arna mentioned is that Susanna has been excited about the functional sanitation ladder and launched this thematic discussion that we held in February and it was a very rich discussion very participatory a lot of people contributed and it's really clear that the seven-step ladder that we have proposed needs to be really adapted to a local context to be functional because there were a lot of comments in terms of where I work it's only the first step that is really necessary to work on so that needs to be more refined or other comments that yeah it's too linear we need to work in another way in our context so a main outcome has been that we really need to adapt it on local level for it to really be useful and Rosalind Graham I don't see her here but she was with a secretariat and she made a fantastic job in pulling everything together along with other people at the secretariat so there are good condensated results out from the discussion and the webinar and just to then see how does the functional ladder actually work together as in this very simple form how does it work together with the MDGs and the STGs as they are proposed so the MDG as I said before it's only meddling along on the excreta containment level and the MDG doesn't even mention hand washing which excreta containment does the step here STG target 6.2 actually mentions excreta containment and safe access and availability and there's some kind of fluffy mentioning of maybe treatment so step 4 with pathogen reduction could be potentially linked to STG 6.2 oops and 6.3 which goes into wastewater management could be freely interpreted to go all the way up to seven and the one step that we think is important which it's step number five the nutrient reuse which I don't see is very well covered in the STG 6 at least I think one could look at the agriculture possibly and make it fit in there but as you can see even in this very simple form that needs further development the STGs could actually be monitored from using this ladder to one way or another it's not a bad start that's what I'm trying to say so Patrick and Ricard and I would like to see that we could further develop this functional ladder so it could be more useful but it should still be in a kind of a framework form that could be further developed on the ground by project partners so our goal is to would be in the future we would like to see a functional ladder that is more worked and more useful on the project level and considering considerations we have to do this is that it still needs to be in a framework form so it's kind of universally applicable but it needs to provide guidance how to adapt it to a local level we think Welltunger Hilfe is an organization who is already using it I think we could probably learn something from them and it's necessary with an iterative form even if it's a framework I think by applying a framework with a project partner we could also understand what needs to be done on the framework level as well as we can understand how to help provide guidance how it could be used on project level so we would like to encourage and find partners who are doing project implementation and who would like to test out this functional ladder for monitoring of achievements to get in contact with the Susanna Secretariat and then we could maybe try and do something together and questions now so I don't know if we have time now but thank you very much Thank you Elizabeth I would suggest that while Graham gets ready we have time for one or two questions or reactions Yes, I see two immediate ones so we'll take them and then let's see Yes, thank you very much more reactions than a question the fact that SDGs are supposed to cover 100% of the population is a specific concern in terms of coverage how are we going to do that second thing is regarding I think we've got an opportunity with the indicators process because we are not going to be able to change anything up to September the UN assembly but the indicators are going to be framed in March 2016 so we've got a couple of months to try to influence that one point is that the SDG process is a political advocacy process to push governments to invest in the sector so as practitioners or as academics we can be frustrated sometimes for example there was a big frustration with the CLTS not considered as improved et cetera et cetera but the objective of the JMP is to push the governments to invest that's why there is maybe a decade if you look at it from an academic point of view I think we need to consider that thanks for that I was thinking as well how to monitor it will be the answer and Graham will address it but Lizette first maybe the answer will be because my question is a little bit in line with what John is asking what is the linkage with the statistical discussion that is happening I'm just having here in front of me the statistical note proposed indicator framework for monitoring SDG targets and if I look at the proposed indicators they say now safely managed basic shared and open defecation so probably you had already an impact that might be the good news since 2011 that you have been able to influence the global discussion and the key question is a little bit how do you influence the global discussion where we want to push governments to invest in an area that is not the most well understood and if we go more in detail from an academic perspective how do we not lose that kind of focus that we want to get agenda on the agenda and also addressed for the most important discussion in the office last week because you started this meeting with the social media and we also in UNICEF we have that kind of discussion going on and the discussion was really can we keep the word sanitation or do we move to toilet and we from the toilet team or the sanitation group have been defending sanitation for years at the moment we tend to say look maybe if in yes or no I mean I'm just saying that there are different pushing and pulls and we have to find either I think we need to find our act and either accept flexibility like you're doing now with the discussion at the local level that you say indicators need to be or definitions need to be applied and understood and owned at the local level maybe that flexibility or understanding or trust to each other we need to create also at the global level but there are many issues in this simple presentation that you gave that probably are worthwhile to further discuss sorry to be long I think that would be weeks of discussion your reaction maybe a quick reaction I just want to say I totally agree it's very complicated and in terms of influencing the indicators I think we had in the team the feeling we are very small and maybe Susanna the muscle of Susanna could maybe influence better in terms of how the indicators could look like so our thinking with the functional ladder is more that it has to on a global or on a national level it has to its use on local level can be measured towards the SDGs on global level but how it's going to look like in each setting maybe it's if you go into in Sweden it's quite clear we're always up on the 7th but in other countries who are struggling if you're a vulnerable nation maybe you're only down in excreta containment even though the SDGs are more ambitious so what it's going to look like in each country is going to differ and also what it's going to look like for each project it could potentially also differ I think this is not really an answer but just a reflection thanks Elisabeth and I would take this chance to give regards from Roland Schertenleib who can't be here because he told me in that discussion something I'll repeat here he said that if you lose your key there's a house door at night and there's no light so you have the option to go some 50 meters to the next light post and search there for your key because there you have a good indicator system you can monitor as the key there or you can try to bring some light in front of your house door and I think that's the discussion we have at the moment we have to decide do we make the right questions and then find out how to monitor them or do we only monitor what we can measure and that's not the answer it's a difficult thing but I think that's on a more fundamental thing the trouble we're in and this is addressed by Graham with the Global Extended Monitoring Initiative who tries to harmonize not only GMP but all these different things and I invite you Graham to tell us a bit about I think you're the master of these complicated things and enlighten us and tell us how Susanna can be of help in that I do apologize everyone, good morning I'm sorry for being late and I'm sorry I haven't got any slides but my apologies stopped there I think I'm going to talk a little bit now I'm not going to speak too much about GMP I'm going to talk a little bit about it but I'm going to talk about this new monitoring initiative I want to give you an overall reflection on what I see the opportunities are for Susanna and indeed for this whole of monitoring water and sanitation I think we're actually a watershed now pardon the pun but I think the speed with which things are moving forward now with the SDG debate is phenomenal and the interest attached particularly to water is also focused a lot of us and a lot of my colleagues the UN agency is to move a lot faster and to catch up and come and answer some of the questions that we've been grappling with in terms of the GMP I think we've seen although the indicators relating to 6.1 and 6.2 there is room for improvement I think there is a significant advance on what we've had before and I do know that you know because I sort of sit in WHO as well as being UN Habitat there's an intense discussion about how to address the issues of reducing inequalities looking in particular urban sanitation and water and ensuring that the hygiene part of the target is adequately reflected and of course the old issues of open defecation so although it might not appear of that way in the publications there's definitely a debate going on between the GMP partners and the extended group of factors can be accommodated and I also think the idea following on from what Elizabeth was saying the idea of the ladder now is becoming more and more interesting for GMP and I do think there's a great opportunity for them to take on board some of the ideas that Elizabeth was talking about earlier I think the other thing I wanted to say I mean I've been sort of leading a group of the UN agencies to develop a new monitoring instrument for the rest of Goal 6 and as you can imagine this has been quite a challenge because there's been 7 UN agencies there's not 2 like GMP there's 7 so we've had a lot of discussions we've done a lot of work over the past 18 months to look at the rest of the water goal and the whole idea behind this so called GEMI initiative is that we felt that you know most decision makers at national level didn't have all the information about the water and sanitation sector at the disposal so the idea of GEMI was to add additional components principally in the areas of wastewater and excreta management from that side and also on water resources management so we've been through a process over the past 18 months and many of you have been involved in that process where a group of thematic task teams have looked in more detail the indicator what the indicator should be for 6.3 through till 6.6 and the outcome of that work has been I think quite good there's now as you've probably seen a set of indicators for the rest which are actually quite inclusive and the language of the indicators allows sufficient flexibility for you know to cover most of the aspects that we want I will say that you know it's still of course not perfect because even in 6.3 we see that there's a loose reference to reuse but it's the words are significantly increased there was if you saw on the earlier slide you put a percentage there the latest language is significantly increased now you know people what people interpret a significant increase of areas so we're not there quite but we do have to find a way of addressing that issue in particular the other important aspect of 6.3 is that it also requires the monitoring of ambient water quality and although this might not appear as you know to many of us who are involved in basic sort of water sanitation it is actually critically important because particularly with regard to wastewater yes there's a part of the wastewater that we can quantify but the bit of wastewater that we can't quantify we rely on ambient water quality to pick up so what I mean by that is if we know what our sewage works are producing and we can monitor that if for example this diffuse runoff from agricultural pollution or other sources the only way we can pick that up is through monitoring ambient water quality so I mean I've been focusing a lot of my effort on 6.3 because that's the area that interests me I've been leading the group on industrial waste because I'm a little bit interested in that but we've also been working to make sure that the combination of the rest of 6.3 are the bit that concerns wastewater management and ambient water quality sits together as a tight goal because we see that the monitoring of the future must have those two elements and also it's actually very interesting because I'm going to talk a little bit about rolling this out to country level but if a country measures its wastewater treatment and it says yes we're maintaining 99% treatment efficiency blah blah blah blah and we see that the ambient water quality tells another story we know somebody's not telling the truth so the need for this indicator for 6.3 to be together is extremely important so rolling on and the idea of this JME is a little bit different from JMP the reasons are twofold firstly JMP has the luxury of using mainly existing surveys mainly the DHS surveys to get its data for issues like wastewater and indeed many of the other parts of the goal there is no data if you actually look at what data is available for wastewater and some you know some of my colleagues in UN agency we've got FAO Aquistat we've got other things but there's very minimal and very unreliable data for wastewater so JME is a bit different in that it realises that we don't have the luxury of those monitoring instruments and the only way that we can succeed in monitoring these other is to make sure that there's capacity at the country level to do this and you know actually although JME is about you know contributing to the SDGs and global monitoring instruments we have to find a way of supporting national structures to collect this data and basically this is what JME is all about it's providing a framework to countries to measure the rest of the SDG from you know from downwards from well including 6.1 and 6.2 but to ensure we have a complete picture so basically a few things that have come out this idea and concept of JME has been shared in a sort of intergovernmental meeting at the beginning of this year we invited I think some 10, 15 member states to review the work that we've done the JME team have produced some recommendations on indicators for all of the rest of the goals for the rest of the indicators and I'm happy to I can share those with you if you're interested the idea is now but we're going out to countries to see how we might operationalise this and to a certain extent hold the hands of the countries in this process of collecting this national nationally developed data now we're not so restrictive in the way that we collect this data of course we want to get the best data that we can but we're much more open to a wider source of data than is previously been used in global monitoring tools so we're going to start looking much more closely at things like data from regulators we're going to start looking much more closely at non-traditional sources of data and data that's generated from communities and also very importantly data that comes out of earth observations and remote sensing so the idea is that using traditional survey instruments using new survey instruments can build the bits of the jigsaw together we can use maybe some of these less formal monitoring instruments to interpolate between more formal surveys but in any event it will give us a much bigger better picture of what's going on but it also means that other concepts can come in including you know crowdsource data all these sorts of things and the idea of ladders can be brought into this country process the ladder concept is very interesting to us and in fact in the monitoring for Jemi we've decided and this has been accepted by the governments that we will look very much more closely at developing a monitoring ladder for the STGs now you might say what the hell's the difference between monitoring and technology well they are a little different the monitoring ladder is designed because the STGs is about all countries and we need a common yardstick that all countries can report on but we know that the resources that are available in countries are very different so to go to a resource constrained country and expect them to measure a complex indicator for example the water quality index which is being proposed is off the record you go to a minister of water they'll look at you blankly and say yes and then nothing will be done because they just basically don't have the capacity or the money to do this so what we've come up with is the idea of a monitoring ladder which is a very if you like it's a way that member states can start to monitor and understand the water sector and gradually progressively move up to more complex collection data and information as they see fit as they find resources available and it started off live I mean I'll talk a little bit I know it's a little bit aside here but it started off a little bit from the work we were doing in the industrial wastewater group how much longer have I got is this two minutes I just want to talk a little bit about the ladder and then I'll mention a bit about how you can partner with Jemi if you want to is that okay so if you look at the issue if you look at the we're breaking a deal here if you look at the issue of industrial wastewater you think there's no information on wastewater there's absolutely nothing on industrial wastewater nothing nothing nothing so what we've done here is we've said right okay if you're starting from scratch the first thing you can do is you can collect an inventory of the industries that produce wastewater hazardous wastewater water nothing more a simple inventory this can be got from local national records it can be got from local authority records it can be got from the institutions the industrial ministers of industry who classify these industries it's very simple it can be done at country level not onerous the next step up is you look at what those industries you can work out from the industries which ones produce hazardous waste and you can work out and you can quantify roughly from the amount of water that they use what they're going to be discharging the next stage is you move up and you say right have these plants got treatment plants yes or no and if so are they functioning and you progressively lead the the country through a process of collecting more information about industries and lo and behold you know after a couple of years and you've demonstrated the capacity you can show through this monitoring ladder the need for them to take more seriously what's going on so that's the concept of the ladder that's being applied across the board we're looking at it also for ambient water quality the idea being level one you measure E. coli and nitrate E. coli is obviously the health risk nitrates a base figure for the diffuse runoff pollution the next level you increase those parameters to BOD suspended solids and for other things and then the level three you would include hazardous toxic substances you know if it's a toxic substance if it's an endocrine disruptor so effectively the idea of the monitoring ladder enables countries at all levels of development to have something to give to a global database you have one sentence now to tell us how to work with Gemi the concept of Gemi is not some to select UN club at all by any way shape or form what we're very interested in is partnering with any institutions of course including Susanna which we're part of or I am part of to see how we can use some of these other more non-conventional monitoring methods to contribute to the overall picture so if you have any ideas of things that you want us to introduce to any of those goals I work very closely of course on 6.3 and 6.2 because of my dirty water interest there's an opportunity there so if any of you are interested in there's a whole range of documents that I can share with you if you're interested this is one of these things that isn't a pipe dream because it's funded, the Swiss have already contributed significant amounts of money over in fact a nine year period we've got a long term funding for this initiative and the governments of Germany have also contributed and the Netherlands are also you know in the process of being persuaded okay, thank you Graham there we are okay, I invite one or two questions why Guy Huttness getting ready you have a presentation which will be put up and I summarise your presentation in a way that you're trying to bring light in front of the house door and that's surprising to me because it was always said if we can monitor it we won't do it it's not practical so I'm slightly surprised and that opens up possibly as well the Susanna network partners can contribute okay, I see two hands and I'll take these two yeah one comment or question to the last two presentations I see SDG 6.2 is very important management topic of it but if you see the local adaptation in your contribution was mentioned as very important and also in yours but you have to look also to the embedded structure it's mostly in the countries integrated water resources management and there for me it's very important what about the governance structures we have to monitor them also that means what about the regional and local sovereignty for budgeting monitoring capacity development and to come in the process of the functional ladder we collect the questions first okay was it you Francois? thanks Graham for this very inspiring discussion we just had just two points how do you think that the UN statistical commission is online on this with what you're saying the second point is we are very many of us as non-UN organization so if we do work a lot on the SDGs how do you think that the data we're going to be collecting be recognized by the UN bodies in charge of collecting and validating all this information and there's a last very short one I was assuming these targets go through how and you've described how long this process might take to set up the country systems but when do you expect a baseline to be generated by how long will it take to generate that baseline in particular looking at 6.3 it must be an important question because it's eating up his time your answers from your side right okay regards to the institutional question first off for us we see this being driven by national priorities and structures so for us if we go to a country I mean already through our proof of concept countries we have a variety of actors who've come into that in some countries we've got ministries of water some ministers environment in Hungary who've also joined they're going to host the Gemi in the national statistical office so you know we've already got a huge diversity of people are interested but for us it's important that the national the national governments decide how they want to set this process up there is also the opportunity for regional issues because of course there's the transbandary water issues when you come to water resources but also for certain groups of countries and the small island developing states are a good example they want to come together to look at this as a group of countries in a region so you know we're always discussing with the Caribbean group and the South Pacific so these issues are very important but my answer is that it's mainly about what the country decides they want to do the second question is actually very pertinent and it's also good because I meant to mention it in my presentation and I didn't in along with the technical discussion on the indicators the UN statistical division there's a group set up called the interagency expert group for the SDGs this is a group who are the heads of the statistical offices from a selected number of member states and they've been looking at the indicators that we've proposed and they've been trying to decide whether they basically look at the ability as statisticians so what we've been doing is we've been producing we're in the process of producing with myself colleagues in UNEP and WHO a statistical note on how this might be measured and we're doing one for six three which I'm happy to share with you the draft but the idea is we've got to convince the statisticians who with a red pen go through and say can't measure it can't measure it can't measure it we've got to show them that it can be measured we've got to show them the statistical notes to show that the latter concept that I was talking about has already been presented to the IAG group and they love it so I actually think if we present this in the right way to the statisticians we can gradually convert them to understand what we're trying to do so I'm very hopeful that we can continue that process there's two member for UNICEF and for WHO both sit on the IAG group notes but that if you like is the mechanics of how we measure these things but it's written for the non water people to understand how it works so there's an opportunity to introduce these latter concepts but I can share that with you and Guy the third question was about the baseline we're going in through Jemi to when I say Jemi we're going to be going in Jemi JMP so it's not just Jemi but the idea is that we're going to be going into five or six proof of concept countries now in the next six to twelve months to hand hold and go through a first run of collecting this data but the idea is that we want to produce a report by the end of 2017 it's hugely ambitious I know there'll be quite a few holes in the report in terms of data but you know if you look back at JMP JMP's been going for 25 years and I remember the days when JMP you could carry around on a three half inch floppy disc it's come a long way in a relatively recent period it will be the same with Jemi we'll have lots of holes to start with but the whole idea is we'll progressively get countries to appreciate the need to monitor the whole of the water sector so as a minister of water whoever's making decisions about investment has all the information at their fingertips to decide I think that's great actually I'm quite excited that there's so much sort of flexibility and development there it earlier sounded much more like that what we can't measure we won't measure we won't take it for me listen anyone who's got a reasonable offer to partner with what we're trying to do is fine this isn't about closing the doors and keeping it if people have got something that they want to see embedded into this this is the opportunity and the way in if you like to influence this process so I'm pretty optimistic that that can be done and it's driving, it's moving fast thanks Graham thanks yes if Kitch is finding his clothes we are in trouble but otherwise go ahead take your time thank you so this follows on quite nicely the last two presentations have laid some of the ground work for the concepts that I'm going to be presenting so those of you who've been around in the sector for some time will know that presenting economic estimates global, regional even country level is not new there's been WHO reports since 2004 World Bank's been working more on sanitation since 2007 on the economics of sanitation so I give a bit of a brief background to where we're at now in 2012 the joint monitoring program motivated and convened a series of working groups on water, sanitation, hygiene and equity and non-discrimination which were tasked with coming up with proposals targets and indicators should be monitored and you know targeted in the future after the post 2015 sorry after 2015 and during those discussions they were several meetings of these working groups a lot of work went in a lot of research they were concerned about proposing overly ambitious targets the experience of the sanitation MDG target was that it was with hindsight overly ambitious and they didn't want to propose universal access or a higher level of service there was no way financially or economically achievable so at the end of 2012 there was a stakeholder meeting and many of the stakeholders raised the question of cost these proposals are great but we don't know what they cost excepted by the broader development community if we haven't got a cost for them so this motivated a new study on the cost of the proposals at that stage fortunately what was proposed by the working groups has largely been carried through to target 6.1 to 6.3 largely the wording is slightly different but largely the vision is there the universal access including faecal waste management so about 18 months ago as part of the World Bank we started this work in close collaboration with JMP who had to produce for this study forecasted estimates of coverage of the existing and of the new indicators and to fill some of those gaps which Graham has just just elaborated on and so in that process we were approached by the Copenhagen consensus center I don't know if any of you recognize the name but they've been producing cost benefit analyses of a range of development interventions so that you can compare health with education with mobile technology with migration with trade everything under the sun and they had a new initiative to do a cost benefit analysis of all the 17 sustainable development goals and so we collaborated with them to produce a report which was released earlier this year I'm also going to present some more detail costing evidence which hasn't yet been published and on the slides we got not for citation please don't take photographs and don't use these in written citation but please use them in your discussions this week so this paper by the Copenhagen consensus center was published at the beginning of the year with over 20 other papers on other development issues and here I summarize just in one graphic the main results for sanitation which includes breakdown between urban and rural areas the blue and the orange bars and then for rural areas we model the costs and benefits of having open defecation free communities which includes the first rung of the ladder the simple traditional pit latrine and in the spirit of the JMP proposals put forward by the equity and working group led by Katrina the special rapporteur we try to break it down by population group and the only data that we had for globally was income or wealth quintiles so we provide some breakdown by income quintile and we see that the benefit cost ratios are high as we've sort of come to expect from previous studies for rural areas it's higher than for urban areas at around just over five on average for urban areas it's lower at two and a half which this new study which previous economic studies haven't done is to provide a rural urban breakdown and this time we really went out to try to get the best unit cost data we have for urban areas as well as rural and so what is driving this lower benefit cost ratio is the higher cost per capita of providing urban sanitation with a higher level of technology such as a septic tank rather than a pit latrine so I think that we should be encouraged by these numbers they confirm previous numbers and can be used for advocacy just to note the benefits only include health benefits and time savings so there are a lot of benefits of improved sanitation are non quantified such as impact on water resources on comfort safety pride dignity and all these other sort of hard to quantify hard to monetize benefits so these I would say are lower boundaries on the actual benefits to society from improved sanitation and we see that open defecation fees communities would have a higher benefit cost ratio it's not significantly higher because even though the technology the investment cost is lower the expected lifespan of those technologies is significantly shorter than an improved latrine hence the ratios are only slightly higher so now here we come to the non-side of all stuff this week is the first time that these are going to be presented we haven't yet got a publication this will come out in the next two months I hope but it's been through a very long internal process at the bank because you know we realize the cost numbers this is a critical point more critical than any previous point we got 15 years ahead of us and what number comes out now may be quoted for the next 15 years so there's a lot of care being taken over how we present these numbers and part of the discussion was about the uncertainty in costs and hence we provided lower and upper ranges taking into account some of the uncertainties anyway here is presented sorry it's a little small on the left side of the basic services ending water, sanitation and hygiene and wash all washed together basic wash and then we have universal access to safe water which is piped water on plot, safe sanitation which is full excretia management and including treatment and then on the far right hand side is what it would cost if you added together adequate sanitation hygiene which is hand washing safe water and reducing by half those not served with safe fecal management services either septage management or sewerage with treatment so the right hand numbers are probably the most important but also looking at basic services basic wash so basic wash would cost between 15 billion and 45 billion US dollars per year globally and meeting the targets which includes a much higher level of service for water piped water on plot compared to wells and safe sanitation would cost between 68 billion and 100 billion dollars per year which is around two and a half times what it would cost for just basic wash services so these are very significant numbers these are annual numbers by the way and for the capital costs if you add operation and maintenance these will grow over time as you add more and more capital stock you'll add significant the operation maintenance cost and if I had more slides I'd present them but that's an important point to bear in mind is that this only includes the investment cost investment is the hardware plus the software cost of reaching populations so just to put it into some kind of context we compare those capital costs at global level with the gross regional product of the MDG regions to give a proportion of GDP or gross regional product of the costs represent and we see on the left hand side those regions with the greatest challenges where the cost in fact there is a regional breakdown of costs and I didn't have the slides to present today it'll be presented in water week Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia are the two regions with the greatest costs for both basic and for safe services and when you compare those costs with the regional product they represent the greatest proportion so to meet basic access in Sub-Saharan Africa it's an average of 0.5% of the regional product and for meeting the target it's 1.4% of gross regional product which is very significant South Asia also has major challenges but looking towards the right hand side we should have some gross for hope in that some regions are much closer to it compared with you see the world here in the middle that's the average is around 0.09% of gross product for the 140 countries included and 0.2% for targets 6.1 to 6.3 now if you compare these numbers with the historic spending we estimated based on previous cost studies and the progress towards the MDGs that the world has been spending around 0.12% of gross product to extend services to the unserved so it doesn't take into account the sustaining the already served 0.12% spent on extending services now for basic wash is 0.09 so if we keep spending 0.12% of gross product then we can reach by 2030 universal access to basic wash a couple of caveats to that is that the spending patterns are more towards water than sanitation and are much more in some regions than others so regionally and by sub sector we need some reallocations but globally we would be on track to meet the SDG targets 6.1 and 6.2 and for safe services and it would cost around 2.5 times what we are currently spending or what we have been spending so there are financing challenges ahead and next week's program is full of sessions on innovative financing how do we meet the SDGs etc so I think these discussions are really important for everyone to be engaged with to put new ideas on the table so that's all I was going to say there's a whole lot of other stuff coming out of the study a whole lot of other findings some of that will be discussed at sessions so there is a session on financing the SDGs on Thursday at 2 o'clock which you are invited to where we will be discussing these numbers but also the broader financing picture of how we achieve the SDGs thank you thank you very much Guy and while Corinne Schuster Wallis is coming up to sorry so while you prepare for your presentation are there a few incredibly short comments almost nonexistent I don't know if I dare give the mic to you very short I'm always learning things from you Guy how much of these critical costs pay for themselves in terms of the benefits to health but how does this whole curve compare to military costs because I did comparisons about 5-10 years ago and this is still minuscule you're welcome to take these numbers and write that paper but please don't acknowledge me no it's a serious point I mean that's a bigger financing discussion so what was the first question again how do costs pay for themselves well I mean looking at the quintile analysis and costs will be presented by quintile in the lower quintiles there will be more challenges to meeting those costs because it's a global study because we're working with 140 countries and we have so many disaggregations within country rural, urban, quintile different levels of service we haven't made any further heroic assumptions on financing because the financing data is very weak but we have somewhere to start and this provides a basis for that discussion one more, very short thank you very much one question regarding the Addis Ababa discussions of July is that reflecting those discussions the second very short one is moving to 100% coverage is a human right approach so what countries want to be involved in it what is going to be the leverage of the World Bank for example to encourage countries to move on full coverage okay so on the first question in the session that I mentioned we have we have a report back from the Addis Ababa conference from the DJS Netherlands he's going to make a short presentation on the implications of the Addis meeting for the water sector I wasn't at the meeting so I'm also waiting to hear what Dick has to say in terms of the second question I'm afraid that's a much larger question and doesn't obviously the World Bank is going to be doing a lot to achieve universal access but the focus is not only on providing research and knowledge but also building institutions that's the major one maybe Martin would like to come in at some stage during the meeting to say more about what the World Bank will be doing in the next business plan thank you thank you very much on the other hand that needs to introduce him with clothes with clothes, yeah brilliant, so just one second good morning all I finally made it here I just saw some people from way back in the days so I'm happy to be here I'm from the African Ministers Council thank you yes right there, yes hi I'm Lotton Hubendick from Stockholm International Water Institute and I work for the UNDP Water Governance Facility hi I'm Bella Montse from GIZ I'm working in the fit for school program thank you very much hi I'm Kate Robb from Emory University thank you and I take the blame that we're running late Kitsch found his clothes I was quite relaxed with the time because I was thinking there'll be we have some additional minutes everybody has to be quite running now, sorry for that so it comes down to me and I'm the one who's at fault if you're late for lunch no it's mainly Kitsch I see a lot of unfamiliar faces in the room for those of you who don't know me my name is Corinne Schuster Wallace I'm with the United Nations University Institute for Water, Environment and Health I'm the UN water coordinator for the thematic priority area on basic water supply and sanitation so as part of that we coordinate the UN response on World Toilet Day November 19th it's toilets and nutrition and I'm probably to blame for some of the sanitation toilet dialogue so I apologize for that I was asked to come today and reflect on the nexus between sanitation and the sustainable development goals or rather the integration and so when I was thinking about this I realized that it's really a triple integration it's not just a simple integration between sanitation and the other SDGs it's between the goals and targets it's with the benefits that are seen and coming back to the comment about whether the costs invested are actually seen back in benefits I think it depends on how we define those benefits if they're defined in financial terms then not necessarily but if we're defining them in terms of social environment terms then absolutely there are offsetting benefits and the challenge for the SDGs will be to actually allow us to recognize those benefits in addition to the financial benefits so the other integration that I see is in terms of implementation and so very quickly I don't even need to go through this slide I'm pretty sure that everyone's aware of the types of integrations that we see between goal sex sanitation in particular and the other goals and I've just listed out a couple of the various pathways here at the bottom and at the very bottom of the slide you can see that not only does sanitation influence a lot of the other goals but will be influenced by and the achievement of the sanitation targets will be influenced by the resilient infrastructure and climate change so we need to bear those in mind when we're looking at these pathways so there are two ways of integration if you will so then if we look at it from the perspective of the benefits this is a piece of work we've been doing looking at Washmore broadly but it still holds true for sanitation if you take the maternal and newborn health perspective if you look at the benefits the benefits aren't just in the hospital for cleanliness of care and reduced septic asepsis cases so what we're looking at is the overall nutritional status of women before they're pregnant in a lot of high income countries you're encouraged before even planning your pregnancy to take folic acid and other vitamins to reduce neuro development deficiencies and so you have a lot of these pieces it's not just the direct carrying water holding your urine and feces till you find a safe dignified place which can result in bladder infections so it's not just those direct health impacts it's these longer term what I call ripples deliberately so you have these different impacts that we're benefitting from and integrating into and so it's not just at the goal level it's at the ground level when we're talking about people and we're talking about their lives we're talking about education which in turn means that a mother is more likely to introduce public health prevention measures in her house and in her family it's not just the time costs and the direct health implications and the caring that's required it goes far beyond that so I just wanted to provide a different type of ladder to demonstrate that these benefits are not just the direct there are these indirect benefits and so we need to be conscious and cognizant of them and we also need to find a way to be able to reflect them on the benefits that we're talking about and how we account for those benefits finally in terms of the application on the ground again this is a project that we've been doing in Uganda it's called Waste to Wealth and it premises itself on anaerobic digestion you don't have to look at the pathway specifically what I want you to look at are the colours pink is health and well-being black is economy green is environment and yellow is livelihood so the individual profit rather than their national or sub-national benefits so you see that even putting the anaerobic digestion in you get benefits but then when you start looking at the products of the biogas at the top and the residual if you use it for fertilizer and or if you use it for a solid fuel then you start seeing these triple bottom line benefits that we're talking about with sustainable development so really we're looking at this integration across all levels and if I come back to Susanna from that perspective you have founded yourselves on research policy and practice that is absolutely the way to go and it really does need to be the triangulation it's no longer research and policy it's no longer policy and practice we really need that triangulation and I would encourage you moving forward think about it from a transdisciplinary perspective from a transsectoral perspective because again it's not just the wash sector it is nutrition it is education and in the wash sector we all tend to preach to ourselves we may be different specialists we may be in schools we may be in the communities we may be looking at it from a nutrition perspective but we still tend to be relatively insular from that perspective the country level we did a study looking at ten countries and asked them where they are now and where they will be and very clear that there's a call for knowledge portals very clear that there's a call for frameworks and assessment frameworks and also implementation frameworks and again I see this as a great opportunity for you to build on your lessons learned and the communication platforms the dialogue platforms that you have these communities of practice the highlight of where Suzanne is very well placed to move beyond but again I challenge you to recognize the fact that as a society we've been engineered we've been primed for success all of our funding metrics all of our accounting metrics are perhaps business based it's all about what we've done successfully how many widgets we've produced how many people we've served and there's a lot to be learned from failure and I would really encourage you to provide space for those failures and I know in the case studies that there are some indications of sort of what you managed to do the challenges that you faced those are the learning points because another community faced with those they're looking for those types of solutions they're not necessarily we're looking for what worked they're looking for what happened when it went wrong because they're at that point and not at the point where they can say yes we're there so that's the other challenge and it's interesting hearing some of my colleagues beforehand I can be a little brief because when you talked about shining the light on the door citizenship science is going to be really important and someone asked the question about how we get that up and I think it's really important to note that the monitoring is set to the national level so we can talk about these global monitoring processes and absolutely there's a roll up of safety and necessity but we're talking about what's down on the ground and sanitation in particular is really really difficult to measure that's why the MDG went from safe to the sanitation ladder to improved because it was very difficult and you have to start 50 feet up the road and it is time to bring the lamppost closer or maybe carry a flashlight torch so but the point is that citizenship science can close that gap and perhaps Susanna is well placed to be able to collect some of that citizenship science to be able to look at some of that and to be able to identify particularly when you've got the ICTs and someone can text that they can see a septic tank leaking down the street as well as they can text that the well isn't working so perhaps these are different ways again that Susanna is well placed to be able to look to and to provide the gap between that very much on the ground basic household level which is extremely difficult it's cost prohibitive to collect and even JMP they really rely on surveys and then on sort of averaging and scale up and statistical analysis to be able to provide a whole picture so perhaps that's another role that Susanna can play in where we go and as part of that support standardized and harmonized data collection because that's really important we've been doing some work on mapping vulnerability to water related diseases including some of the social indicators so access to water and sanitation and you can go to the census data and find that four different countries in a region have four different metrics on how they measure access to sanitation some may only do pipe versus non-pipe some may do septic versus open defecation versus something else so being able to pull those together is extremely difficult and it's something that's going to have to happen in order to be able to roll up from the local to the national to the global level so that's a good thing to do and I'll leave it there I'll leave it there, thank you very much thank you very much Corinne we got some really good inputs here in terms of focusing on citizen science and standardized harmonized data collection and to stick with a research policy and practice focus that Susanna has had for a long time and also to provide more space for failure thank you so much Corinne it has to be afterwards yeah later so now can we please welcome Kichima Bauer with clothes and everything from the AMCO sorry if I made a mess of your name it's not deliberate I'll try it good morning once again yeah I finally made it without my clothes I've been having this for the past three days but thank god I'm here okay okay so I think all of us will agree that coming from the MDGs even up to the SDGs it's difficult to achieve all of the 17 goals without sanitation and hygiene but then what we've done here is to look at how we can just pick a number of five goals that we can relate with without sanitation and hygiene it's difficult to achieve this poverty education health and human settlements gender equality and education so next slide okay so it's self service okay then go declarations then go is a word in the local language in Senegal that means dignity and you all agree with me that sanitation is dignity then go declarations have been developed in a very participatory manner we have worked with the open working group on the SDGs to ensure that we're working in line with the SDGs and this declaration replaces the Itikwini declarations the Itikwini was developed to help Africa reach the MDGs for sanitation and hygiene and then they come to an end in 2015 so AfricaSan 4 came just in time for us to have a set of commitments to help us reach the SDGs and it's got ten commitments so the next slide looks at the commitments and how they relate to the different targets in the SDGs the commitment number one which deals with eliminating inequalities and sustainability the second one prioritization of sanitation leadership coordination sanitation and hygiene in public institutions we have tried to shoehorn them to look at how they relate to to it's not very clear there the rights and went out of the the yeah okay yeah definitely so and then target three we tried to shoehorn sanitation for productive use and down to target five seven and four so and but over here is other cross cutting issues that we've had to deal with and then go declaration the we're working on an action plan to enable us achieve to enable us operationalize then go declarations and we have tried to look at all the other issues that came out of Africa and not just the issues I mean we looked at the technical presentations we've looked at the country dialogues we've looked at other meetings other discussions within the Africa entire process that what are the issues that came out of them so we came out with this cross cutting issues that will be part of the action plan and they include M and E what in our view and innovation and technology and political privatization of sanitation and hygiene so all in all what we're doing now is that we are working on the action plan but we cannot finalize it until the final goals for the SDGs are out and then we'll still work with the group with the open working group to finalize the indicators for the work plan so that in a nutshell is how you can see that the SDGs are related to the go declarations I think I've done it in less than three minutes yeah thank you very much thank you very much Kitch no time for questions are we so Steph, you're the last presenter Steph Smith from IRC and you have virtually no time sorry about that take it take your time this is not mine, this is Hannah Woodburn it was a joint presentation sorry Steph Smith okay Hannah goes first then yeah okay sorry about that Hannah Woodburn PPPHW I won't recite our whole name because that would take up too much time so I'll be very brief I just want to speak quickly about hygiene in the SDGs I have up here the target 6.2 which I'm sure all of you are fairly familiar with we're really pleased to see hygiene included in the target but it needs to be in the indicator if we want it measured so right now there's a proposed indicator for hand washing with soap but it's not yet guaranteed unfortunately menstrual hygiene management hasn't been proposed by the IAEG but the regional and country level indicators which were mentioned before are still very much being debated so there's gaps at the global level but big opportunities at the regional and country level to address hygiene both menstrual hygiene management as well as hygiene in extra household settings such as schools and health care facilities excuse me but we still believe that we can get hand washing with soap in the global level indicators there's a great opportunity right now with the IAEG's consultation period so my organization the PPPHW as well as the JMP communications and advocacy working group is coordinating a response to this consultation from the wash sector saying hygiene is not implicit it's important we need to make it explicit when we talk about sanitation that doesn't include hygiene and so we really need to work to make sure that we keep that H in wash and it's not silent and then also the other two major opportunities that are upcoming are global hand washing day and world toilet day so those are also great opportunities for people to talk about the importance of hygiene that it can and should be measured thank you very much Hannah now Steph please welcome okay and I think Hannah has made my work a little bit easier by raising some of the points I was asked to provide a civil society perspective from the SDGs and of course I can't speak for all civil society so this is a bit what I picked up from the various discussions I think all very happy with the targets and the goals that are there and I think particularly fantastic that hygiene made it in at the last moment I think for us also a big concern is the sanitation at extra household settings I think many people see it implicit in the goal because it's for everyone but it needs to be really explicit in the indicators framework and I hope that Graham later on can also shed some light what the status is on the sanitation at extra household settings I think there has also been within civil society quite a bit of discussion on the target 6 6C on the wastewater related questions on putting wash in the broader perspective of IWRM lots of discussion isn't that going to take away from getting people on the ladder rather than getting people higher on the ladder we see it as a very relevant one I don't think we can do without it's not one or the other it's both and I think we need to get both and the next question is can we really achieve it are the 15 years enough and I think if you do a linear extrapolation of how we have done in the past I think for open defecation for me the class is half full if we do it linearly we will get to ending open defecation by 2044 so 14 years too late but we also know that reducing open defecation has really sped up in the last few years and reaching 2030 means doubling the rate of success and I think that should be possible particularly also looking in light of the figures that Guy just presented earlier but getting to improved sanitation at least if we follow the current JMP yardstick for me the class is half empty at the current rate of growth in improved sanitation we will reach the SGG target by 2074 which is 44 years too late and it would really mean quadrupling not the level of inputs but I think what Guy showed but really quadrupling the rate of success and that I think is not realistic particularly if we look at a country level 47 countries at the moment have less than 50% access to improved sanitation if they want to get to the 100% it means that they need to get coverage at 3.3% point per year that is a rate of growth that has never ever been achieved in even in the best performing countries so for me reaching universal access I think will be I'm quite pessimistic about that and the other part is if we really want to double triple quadruple our rate of success we only have 5 years most of programs take 5 to 10 years to really deliver results so we have to get the finance in order to get the governance in order in order to deliver by 2030 so we have to get all that going in the next 5 years so we don't have 15 years we have only 5 and what are then the areas of attention in that I think for rural sanitation we need to take the dual approach focusing on the unserved getting people on the ladder but I think it's very much where you see a big gap people having toilets that don't meet any of the standards and I think if we can work with them to improve their situation I think that's important so we need a dual approach focus on the unserved and on the underserved and I don't want to go into the approaches for that but it will be a big mix urban sanitation I think requires specific attention the situation with urban sanitation has basically been stagnant since 1990 the percentage of coverage have remained the same we haven't been able to beat let's say the demographic curve so for the last 25 years shared and unimproved toilets haven't gone up that has remained at the 15-20% charge and it becomes even more difficult now with the third target of improving wastewater treatment I think Graham already mentioned that and I think a final area of attention and I'm glad that this specific working group of Susanna is sanitation in fragile states the current levels of sanitation in fragile states are extremely low the speed of growth in coverage is basically close to zero on many cases negative I think we can do a lot to address the immediate needs in term in humanitarian situations but can we really make progress in the fragile states and in the communities that are in the crisis knowing what is required to get to sustainable sanitation in terms of governance, sustainable financing and so on again that is where I see the class maybe a quarter but I think these are the areas we need to work on thank you so I would suggest to have a let's say three questions or a few questions to say Susanna should and then talk for more than 30 seconds and then let the plenary be provoked by what does it mean in the last years we have been told to sort of stay out of this because it's too complicated we won't influence it and I always had the feeling that once the once the texts are there then to translate it into practice that is where Susanna comes in and so on something will be there and then what to do and then all the practitioners will have a say so I invite first other questions for the last three very precise and short presentations I see one, I see two okay that's very good yes thank you regarding the civil society I think that Susanna is involved in 154 countries we know that if we want to achieve a global coverage there is no civil society it's not built if you look at Africa for example the civil society is very weak so maybe a direction we could take is to try to build the capacity of the civil society in order for them to challenge their institutions in order for them to challenge their institutions to grow on the coverage and to have strong strategies thank you all right thank you my comment will reinforce what Corinne highlighted on the need for assessment and implementation frameworks first to know that I work with Waterlex which promotes water governance water and sanitation governance through the human rights framework just to note also that those kind of frameworks already exist and how do we intend them to map what really exist and use these existing structures to reinforce this implementation processes instead of starting to look for new frameworks secondly just something that was mentioned before on how we integrate other data from other sectors or other partners a recent meeting in Bonn 17th 18th the chair of the UN Open Working Group on SDGs mentioned that there is intention to form an intergovernmental panel on water and part of the mandate of that will be to use data from other sectors to have the interlinkages focused on and focused on the entire water cycle and supporting the whole implementation process so if that indeed is going to happen then that would cater for this other diverse data sources Reactions? It was to address to whom? Your question was to? No I couldn't agree more with you I think that is actually where we need to go we need to have the capacity in civil society also to hold governments to account and so for me it's building the capacity of civil society to question to query to look at what are the budgets of governments and at the same time build the capacity of governments to respond to that because I think in many places governments, national government local government have very weak capacity two weeks ago I was in India and I asked some of the local government leaders what's your budget for water and sanitation no idea so how can you hold governments to account if the local government particularly don't have the capacity and I think in that sense I would like to congratulate the governments of the Netherlands who are now really putting lots of effort into establishing that dialogue between civil society but it also means I think for many of the NGOs we tend to focus always a lot on implementing projects building new water systems building toilets and so on and I think a much bigger part needs to go into strengthening the civil society on all those kind of software aspects alongside strengthening local government Your question was to? Sorry? But you both will answer In the interest of time I'll do double duty because Susanna should be putting together these pathways and frameworks because you have solutions that are policy capacity and technology and they need to be packaged so that the technology has the supporting policies that could be used in the software that could be used so not just having them as individual entities but actually providing the links and it doesn't have to be that you have to have policy X with technology Y but that these are the types of policies that support from the top down and these are the type of practices that support from the bottom up and actually pulling them together and as part of that the functional sanitation ladder it's a pathway in and of itself implementation being the bottom and so knowing that only step one applies to you but see it as a pathway to progress and say you're at step one now but let's get you to step two once you've reached there in step three You started? Susanna should and then? No it was but the first sentence you said was Susanna should? Put together pathways so integrate the policy practice whatever tools so that their packages are on that link I did double duty Yes that's why you are justified So I'd like to link Don't take it too serious Okay So now I'd like to answer the question you asked me before link it to your new question so the World Bank has a new initiative citizen engagement is going to be mainstreamed so all loan projects grant projects have to consider how it's engaging with citizens and in the water sector we're already quite advanced WSP has been working on this for some years we have some tools like the SLB service level benchmarking connect which allows customers to better you know engage with the utilities so this you know this is something that we're contributing from now I'll let other panelists have to speak I'd like to just comment quickly on the on the civil society No question was directed to me so Okay Yeah it's nice that you presented in gold declarations and I'm just thinking back to I mean reflecting on the E.T. Queenie declarations how Africa responded to the MDGs and we're having kind of like a repeat of it and they're like key lessons we learned from the process of E.T. Queenie that you're taking on board with this SDG or it's just going to be another set of you know demonstration of you know we're part of the game the discussions what's changing particularly at the levels of government governments since you come from Ankaw what are we expecting differently Maybe I'll respond to this before the one I was planning to Yeah coming from the E.T. Queenie commitments we had a series of country level and sub-regional processes before the African Africa Sand Conference itself and from these processes we learned we were able to identify some key issues that we were lagging behind leadership coordination, finance and so going forward what we want to do right now we are working with the sanitation and water for all to ensure that the commitments that come out of the African Sand process what informs what the commitments of the SOA HLM will be and we're doing a number of activities to ensure that we get by at the highest political level and then we the process of developing the work plan and the indicators for E.T. Queenie it was developed by the agencies this time around we want to get we want to involve representatives of the four sub-regions of Africa to ensure that there is participation and there is buying from the governments so that we we work on this together I think that is what we've done so far to see that we learn from the lessons of E.T. Queenie but then the other issue I wanted to comment about in less than 30 seconds is the issue of civil society right now anew the African network of civil society on water and sanitation has been having some crisis and AMCAO is working with other agencies to ensure that we bring back and revitalize anew and we will be looking to the World Bank because they are calling on civil society to engage governments to ensure that they do some kind of monitoring and follow up and we also call on anew and other agents civil society from different continents to work together to see what are the issues that make anew not to hold together so that is all I have to mention all I have to say about this Thank you very much so I'm the time controller from now on we're already 15 minutes late and we had ideally wanted to ask you all for Susanna should but if we do the audience will have absolutely no time so I can summarize five Susanna shoulds that we've picked up so far and they all come from Korean so just to repeat then Susanna should stay with its current focus where we're kind of working in research policy and practice because it's a good approach we should also focus more on communicating and analyzing failures so that people can learn from that not only from the success stories we should use citizenship science to advance the work and look into, contribute to the standardized and harmonized data collection and the last part here is to put together those pathways and solutions and providing the links between policies and technologies for different situations so are there any reflections on this on our coffee break basically the coffee break the coffee break is already over so I will actually go back to Karim because I'm coming from dry toilet conference in Tampere I want to say that we have to focus on some concepts like social movement in Nepal this concept helped them to make a big step going forward in sanitation and another concept is institutional triggering I think we share this idea in Tampere this is a very interesting concept I think we can use to help countries to achieve the the next sustainable development goal in Burkina Faso IRC is trying to lead the kind of social movement and just yesterday something like this they are trying to bring the other NGO and society to push government the next authorities to bring the next budget sanitation budget from 2% to 10% at least I think this is some concept we have to focus on. Thank you very much Karim someone else from here who hasn't said anything who wants to sorry I like to suggest one topic which is I think by sub-Saharan Africa for instance the needs for this country but the situation is also that the EU and other donors are funding a lot of money and these countries are not able to receive this money they cannot channel it and there is a lack of capacity in the sense of twinning projects that capacities from Europe or from USA or something like that is on longer view maybe 5-6 years in twinning project integrated to realize governance, capacity building processes so that they come more receivable this money is provided for this so it seems I don't see hands yes there is one, it's your final comment and then the audience and then the coffee I think it's very important the question raised by Burkina Faso and I'm not sure it has been included in the conclusions what Susanna could do we are implemented in 154 countries we can support the civil society maybe shall we create a group on civil society a working group 13 we don't know but let's be concrete on that because this is one strength we have okay and as I said in 2007 when we met before the international year we said that we have to do something and two have to do some similar if they do it together it's more stronger it's only that we will do so the should is always coming back to those who are doing something have we final shoots from the panel I see two final shoots I'll take 30 seconds I've done my time before I've got some asks Susanna okay I think first off I said there's an opportunity for us to learn from any good community initiatives or ideas for supporting this monitoring effort so it's an open invitation for anybody in the Susanna network and we rely on Susanna to pull that expertise together for us to feed into the process basically it's between WHO, Habitat and UNICEF to do 612 and 3 the UN system so you know any of us can be approached in that way the second thing is I'd like to ask if there's some way we can reach out and work a little more closely with the Earth observations community because there's amazing activities going on very fast you know we were talking last week at the Bone Conference to people from NASA there's all sorts of information that we can use which gives us great information on urban areas, urbanization, understanding urbanization better and it's very important to do and the third thing it's very important that the IAG the statisticians understand that some of these targets can be measured right because at the moment they're putting red pens through so anything you can do as part of the Susanna network to push the member states who sit on IAG and there's a list of countries who sit on IAG to ensure that things like hygiene and all the other bits and pieces are in on the monitoring agenda is very important because whatever the technical people say the statisticians get to it and they put lines through it when we measure it. Thank you very much and we have beyond working groups we have task forces and what we got as tasks from the core group meeting last year I think we were quite successful to try to address it so we'll take it and try to find ways how to do that. For me following up also on the comment of the colleague from Burkina and from the gentleman here, for me Susanna should develop maybe as part of working group two I think of the budget so that we can that the members can apply it in their own countries can analyse what the budgets are, how these are being spent and can use them for that dialogue between civil society and government because I'm not so sure whether there's value in having a working group only on civil society the value is in the dialogue but for that the civil society needs to have tools, tools to track budgets, tools to track expenditure on sanitation I think that is important that Susanna should do. You know it can't be left out. Susanna works a lot on sort of technology identification and solution identification now having solutions that are affordable I think is really important so bearing that in mind so you know the reinvent the toilet challenge that Gates Foundation is funding that's one of the major things all these proposals are falling down on they can't get it to the right unit cost even if it's a wonderful solution it's not the right unit cost so we have to think about that especially meeting the goals, the targets in the poorest countries so that's my challenge Mine is a good so I'm thinking that Susanna could work with Amcao to improve the sanitation capacity capacity for sanitation and hygiene program implementation and monitoring in Africa because I mentioned three earlier but that's also one of the major things one of the major gaps that we identified from the Africa sand process lack of capacity for sanitation I'm just going to add that hygiene is very cost effective I think that Susanna should and could and hopefully will become vocal advocates for hygiene because it is so important to the work of sanitation around the world so become vocal hygiene advocates particularly in the SDGs but beyond as well Susanna should break for coffee Thanks I think I'll cut it here could we have coffee now just 15 minutes and be back in the room on time which would be 12 10 minutes 12.20 back thank you good chair okay 12.30 welcome everyone to the second part maybe I'll take that and this part of the meeting is focused on sanitation or wider wash and nutrition and since that's the thing that's keeping us from our lunch we will try to keep two time and if possible cut off 5 to 10 minutes I hope I'm not promising too much in doing that in terms of leading into the issue I would just quickly like to begin with the history of Susanna and wash and nutrition it was two years ago here in Stockholm that together with others the German wash network of which I'm the chair 20 German NGOs did a seminar here on wash and nutrition and the result when we all sort of left the room the question was what can we do and Susanna was the perfect platform for bringing everyone together and to say let's start a working group so that was working group 12 and ACF is heavily involved in that working group leading it we have one Anokava from Weytungahöf two members of the German wash network those are the three co-leads and now we are here two years later I think at the last Stockholm event last year at Water Week there were also wash and nutrition sessions you see the topic really gaining speed and this year we have a very special year because the World Toilet Day of course has the motto sanitation and nutrition and there are a few seminars also during this week a working group meeting that I think is already overbooked but that we still entice you to come and we'll make sure that the room capacity is used to its maximum so this is sort of the block and the time that we want to spend on this as you listen to the inputs and as we have our discussion a bit later we do have a list here I've signed my name to it because I'm interested to receive regular updates about the World Toilet campaign so anyone interested in World Toilet Day I'll pass this around please put your email address on it if you're interested in receiving those updates that was one thing that I was just asked to do and then this block will sort of have three parts first of all we'll hear about the special event this year the World Toilet Day and afterwards we'll hear sort of the current developments within the working group within the sector from Jean and then we'll bring Bella on board and have a small discussion open it to comments from the floor so I won't spend more time talking myself but hand the word over to Lisette Burgers from UNICEF who is Head of Toilet Team Senior Advisor Wash Hi, good morning I will just give four slides and talk a little bit about World Toilet Day which I'll give a little brief context because I came when I was in the field in India Afghanistan it's not always easy to understand what is the who-ha happening at the global level so World Toilet Day was a UN initiative of the Singapore government and Singapore NGO we all know probably the name of Jack Sims who is really behind that and so a lot of credit should be given to him to get it on a UN agenda and the 19th of November was designed as World Toilet Day in the context of sanitation for all through the unanimous adoption of a resolution by all 193 members of the United Nations so it's just to indicate that it is at a higher level that there was an entry point to discuss this issue just as a little detail I was in New York from 1993 to 1999 at the time that UNICEF nearly dropped sanitation because it was so difficult also to show evidence and results and the linkages to children directly but it was until 2012 before the word excreta or sanitation was accepted at the UN in UN meetings so just to give a little bit of in some cases it's a political high level influential agenda but it takes really some push to get it on so the mission of so with that date now set the permanent mission of Singapore has embraced this World Toilet Day it takes an active role and this year it will be the third World Toilet Day event on the 19th of November in partnership with UN UNICEF UNSCAP but many other UN states but particularly also of important civil organizations in the private sector now the theme of this year is the sanitation and nutrition link the health benefits and so that is to raise international awareness to the scale of the sanitation crisis and the negative impact it has on children and their families and communities so three different messages have been identified or one core message which is we can't wait for 2.4 billion people to gain access to improved sanitation and with two thematic messages to highlight the focus of World Toilet Day this year so the first one is sanitation and nutrition better sanitation supports better nutrition and improved health especially for women and children and the second one is waste and innovation we can realize the potential of human waste as a valuable resource to improve sanitation and nutrition through toilets and innovations and these two messages reflect of course a big set of sub-messages including stunting, safety education and more but this is kind of a compromise to get as much as possible simplicity focus and then the different groups can come in let me see sorry I need to get to this so there will be a flurry of activities during that that day and before of course of an online on World Toilet Days but all efforts will focus for access on improved sanitation for all everywhere a new website will be launched on the 15th of September which includes clear messaging about this World Toilet Day link to resources, materials new sections for members and partners and ideas section for featured projects for example be a shareer be an artist interactive maps of events around the world and toolkits with logos, posters, banners and more so the question is that if you have any resources to add to the resource section of the website please send them on reports infographics, videos etc we would like to really get all the materials the efforts of those around the world who are contributing to World Toilet Days there is this new idea three new ideas for public engagement which is that idea of being a shareer an artist and a thinker for example if you are a part of Cezana and you are a thinker the idea is to show your support on social media by taking a photo in your thinker position making it your profile picture using the official hashtag hashtag World Water Day hash we can't wait so there are many several ideas it's really at the moment in discussion also with the social media and as technicians sometimes we try to balance the technicalities and this desire to stay correct with that other group that is trying to gain more interest and get messages out that people can engage with so then the the UN event on the 90s of September we will release a new report that provides an evidence base of the link between sanitation and nutrition a first teaser has been out it's expected to come out in in the fall so for people who want to have a small summary of what it entails they can have a look at it the details of the session are still being finalized and will be distributed shortly the idea is to have the deputies secretary of general of course there with some people from the UN to get people like for example Robert Chambers NGO representatives and the private sector together in a debate there are more issues in the pipeline but we are waiting confirmation for some of the celebrities that we want to get engaged in so to get more noise around that so actually what I want to ask is Wall Toilet Day is one of these moments that you can raise awareness about the sanitation crisis and to show how sanitation and nutrition are linked that's this year so the question is please join us strengthen the global call for access to safe toilets or to safe sanitation for all and send your planned Wall Toilet Day activities and resources so that we can share it with the community so you can have it sent to this website that's actually all what I want to say it's an opportunity to emphasize from a different from a different angle also so the nutrition groups we would very much like also to have them on board and to bring in their thinking and I'm very happy to work with Jean we're looking at how we can also strengthen that partnership to bring the messages stronger how sanitation and nutrition is linked I deliberately didn't go into detail about where the linkages are I hope Jean will raise that a little bit but it requires also much more time thank you thank you very much Lisette I think while Jean is setting up his presentation taking that there are sort of two main overarching connections we're looking at on the one hand nutrition that's being lost as people have certain health impacts that prevent nutrient uptake and then you had the second part about not only going in terms of nutrition feeding people from the field to the plate but also from the plate perhaps back to the field some sort of reuse so we have those two elements I think Jean will give us more insight into the connections and also link it to perhaps what the working group has done in the past thank you very much Tilo I'm coming from holidays but with my clothes as you can see it's good because it's refreshing to jump in the bus like this and try to make it not too boring but just one thing why did we create this working group 12 if you look at the WHO mortality thank you it's better like this if you look at the WHO mortality under 5 and if you forget that 50% of the 6 million children dying every year die between 0 and 27 days the perinatal mortality the biggest killer of children is under nutrition 47% of under 5 children die because of under nutrition and the second bigger killer is the Welsh related diseases with 2.1 million children what is quite interesting to see is that these two figures superpose one on each other it's the same children that's why we created the group you cannot achieve treating if you don't prevent it by reinforcing the water and sanitation environment so the working group has been created in 2012 and we will have the opportunity during the World Water Week to have two interesting events one is on Tuesday at 11 o'clock in room FH 201 and this will be a side event coordinated by ACF the German wash network it's here alright it's here so you will find it here and basically we will have prominent people there we will have the minister of hydraulics from Burkina Faso we will have some very high institutionals from Germany and the objective of this meeting is to move ahead looking at institutions at operations and at research all together okay so you're very welcome to come there then in the afternoon on the Tuesday afternoon at 2 o'clock room 353 you will have the working group working group 12 where we'll go in the detail of the where we want to go how can we proceed it okay what is next so Lisette spoke of the World Toilet Day there will be also the bone meeting on the 11th and 12th of November and this is hosted by the German wash forum and Susanna as a role as a host online or what is it exactly Tilo the conference will be exactly one week before World Toilet Day we'll focus on bringing the two sectors together gearing us up for World Toilet Day and Susanna will basically be the online host reaching out spreading the discussions that are being had there through the community thank you there will be also an opportunity to share our research on wash and nutrition in the EEHF so Emergency Environmental Health Forum of Nairobi it's around the 15th of October and there will be a presentation of the last research done on the subject then the working group is also working on the publication so we have a fact sheet that is on the website this is Lisette who will share of course with you all this material but we uploaded quite a lot of material on the website and there are two publications so the WHO USA UNICEF 1 that Lisette just presented and which is going to be a sort of manual on the wash and nutrition and ACF UNICEF ECHO is going to produce for April 2016 an operational manual so you will have the Bible or the Holy Quran it will be the WHO one and then you will have the gospel you will have the basic manual to implement it at field level oriented to practitioners in terms of research sorry and it will be my last slide in terms of research we still try to understand the connections between the wash project and the sanitary environment the infection and the under nutrition both the acute under nutrition the wasting and also the the stenting the chronic under nutrition and basically where we've got the most problems is to characterize the connection between the wash project and the acute under nutrition this is a big question mark another thing is that we miss also evidence in sub-Saharan Africa we've got many evidences due in particular to Dinspir and the fantastic work done in India on the connection between sanitation and chronic under nutrition but we still miss evidences in the link between wash and acute so ACF is developing research on that Concern is developing also research on that in Chad and basically this research will be available in 2016 and will contribute to the to push this subject thank you thank you for that we will go to a small discussion in a second but before just maybe for those first two presentations some sort of questions of understanding I think you saw that John also has some other slides that he may give some more input on the issue perhaps at the end depending on how we run with time but the point here was that we get these main statements out first see if you have questions of understanding at this point otherwise we would go into a group discussion and then Trevor please it's not a question of understanding it's a question from our online participants that has come in for Lizette it's not one on clarifications I don't know if we want to reserve it I'll just read it out maybe we build it into conversation so via Twitter chat we have a question from Elizabeth Van Munch and she says this is for Lizette and it's a will your team at UNICEF also be looking into improving the Wikipedia article on World Toilet Day and washing nutrition thanks for that we will look at that done yes the answer is yes the Wikipedia World Toilet Day piece is being updated I'm not sure what the process is but it's been written and submitted perfect, good and this shows that our linking outward with the video through social media works so thereby also encouraging others online to post their questions because we can bring you into the discussion we'll have in a second now you see in your program that I would like first of all I would like our two speakers to please come to the front again and I would like to add Bella to the round the reason I'm bringing in Bella is because on the one hand from GIZ working with fit for school and we were thinking beforehand this is a challenge to bring together two silos to bring together different sectors and I think Bella is an excellent example of a person who has done this for years working with different sectors with the education sector with the health sector and that list could probably be continued bringing different aspects together the second being that you have a very specific sort of stakeholder group you're seeing sort of a small part of the whole picture but that very detailed at schools which are obviously very critical places for impacting society with either new trends or also with the connection of Washington nutrition so first of all I'd like to pose a question to you Bella and I'll give you the microphone just to ask whether first of all if you have experiences from your work that you would like to share where you see this link actually happening taking place where you see evidence of this and secondly maybe to sort of comment on the opportunities of this year and what's going on and how you view that in a greater picture I'm working here I'm working on school health in the area of water sanitation and hygiene in schools which is institutionalizing hygiene habits into everyday school life by institutionalizing hand washing, institutionalizing toothbrushing and also by annually warming but also institutionalizing taking care of toilets in school and institutionalizing cleaning and maintenance as everyday activities in school. Of course that is not something which is very natural to the education sector this is very new for the education sector and there's also quite a bit of resistance sometimes within the sector thinking this is work of another sector and of course with these activities you try to reach health goals you try to reach improved health and you do that the school is sort of a microcosmos where you can where different sectors come together but everything goes through the education sector because the education sector is calling the shots in schools and it can never every program will fail which will not go through the education sector which is just in a way hooked on schools but it has to work it has to go with the system in the schools so that's my background and when you look at areas where you have really the connection then you can say you have it in the area of water access to safe drinking water is for example a perfect thing which need to be in the school which is part of hygiene and part of nutrition drinking water and it's part of nutrition but you can also perfectly link that through existing school feeding programs and a good example for example is the government of India which is doing school feeding for all their 150 million children every day and now they're integrating daily hand washing prior to eating to the kids so that they will eat with washed hands but also as an example put that as a need for the people who prepare the food so that's also where hygiene comes together and where the school is a perfect place to institutionalize that sorry that was long but no no perfectly fine and concerning where do you see where do you see the huge potential that this year might bring are there any suggestions that you perhaps might have either maybe what is interesting with school is that it's a microcosm where it's a perfect place to share messages and to share good behavior but it's also a perfect place to share contamination and it's places where there is washed contamination also yeah the SDG I think are highlighting the need to ensure infrastructures in schools this is a great opportunity for all of us I think we should take care of ourselves on that yeah maybe let me reflect a perspective from the field that came from Indonesia there's a lot of talk about the evidence of wash interventions on nutrition wash also on every mother every newborn there is an increased interest in the evidence building but one person from Indonesia recently said it's also probably let the discussion on the what we need to know what is the evidence and the emerging evidence shows clear linkages or it's growing evidence I would say but there is definitely a need on the how and that's why I'm also looking at Jean that we're really looking forward to a practitioner's manual and probably more evidence on what can be done and therefore it's very important to understand also the context in which different programs operate so somebody this morning said we're usually preaching for our own parochial constituencies so we preach to the converted already and we need to if you want to work in washing nutrition same as you do in washing education or wash and nutrition or wash around midday meals in schools makes it even more interesting you need to understand what is the context what are the national programs where is your entry point where are is there for example in nutrition an infant and young feeding program with manuals and guidelines and other ways that you can get in your basic messages apart from having the issue addressed for the facilities but to look really at the entry points and to make sure that if there are meetings around and that makes it also a little bit more challenging we are also having a challenge to be in all the water and sanitation meetings at the moment but if you want to have a real integration you need to show respect to the other sector and you need to know what is the national planning what are the national programs when are the planning meetings who are the key players who is what is the network here where is the influencing happening and one thing I learned and somebody said about failing you need to have human resources there you need to have people who understand the language who are willing to invest time and then publish and document just that's a little one of the pillars of the Washington strategy and it has been already endorsed by different movements for example the sun movement the sun movement is 59 countries today who are involved in trying to develop political frameworks in order to connect the different sectors and to identify all the causal analysis of under nutrition so the wash is definitely part of that and the sun movement is scaling up nutrition we have a few comments from the floor so I'd like to bring those into the discussion I agree and support everything that's been said first off secondly just to add to Lizette's comments in terms of the linking at a very practical level I'll share our experience over ten years in providing the training and having it integrated in the training so when we're training health practitioners we have incorporated in at the basics on water and sanitation demystifying the whole arena and likewise when we're training technologists and engineers and the technical practitioners we're incorporating the basics on microbiology and epidemiology and what we find and we're talking at the very practitioner field level is that we find is that when people who are implementing have the information so it's not necessarily and I'll share one anecdote from a conference I was at last year where it was the conversation it was the World Bank and the UNICEF saying we have to push down the conversation that's happening up at the top level so to speak and I would argue that exactly is that when a health practitioner knows that they can take action on water or sanitation tomorrow they start doing it, they implement it into their decisions and likewise so do the wash practitioners when they understand that chlorination isn't going to take out cryptosporidia they take a different decision Yes, please do that and I'd like everyone else to also think about practical things that because we'd like to probably summarize this session with practical things that Susanna what can we do together to highlight this what you're saying because and let me go to healthcare facilities in Dakar at the Africa Sun meeting there was a session on water sanitation hygiene in healthcare facilities and there was one very respected, highly respected and really appreciated speaker who honestly said that at Sandy Cairn Cross who many of us know from the London school had asked for many many years to establish the link between poor water sanitation hygiene conditions in healthcare centers and with maternal and newborn health and she had refused there was a head of the maternal healthcare or the maternal health in one of the respected universities and she had refused for several years she said look this wash sector wants to look now at everything and then she was waiting for one grand to come through and she said let me look at it and she said it still gives me the chill and she gave some very excellent slides unfortunately I lost my hard disk so I don't have it with me but they are recuperating the data hopefully inshallah but there is a presentation out and I can try to get it for you that really showed the linkages and it's not that's at the higher level of the academic level and this was also result because WCHO, UNICEF and other partners UNC they started to look at what is the data out there so it links with the discussion this morning JMP and at the local level what data do you have available I just want to emphasize that you cannot wait you need to push also the academia on the higher level to look at what is happening and to show that there is a link but sometimes it takes more years and in the meantime we need to get our act together at the practitioners level a few more hands one back here then I'll go online again who was first I think a hand back here somewhere was first I think yours was first yes I my name is Antoinette and I'm from SNV nutrition I think you're very right that the work on the causal links is important but that we also need to talk about how and I think that if we talk about how in terms of integration that is really very confusing because it assumes that it's a merger whereas I think there will always be things in WCHO and in nutrition that are outside things in WCHO outside of nutrition and things in nutrition that are outside of WCH so I would like to see that that partially overlaps and in our practice two things that we're really struggling with is that nutrition sees their priority target group as mothers and children and not as an entire population so they define a target group of a program across many many many many districts over a huge geographical area but for us to make results in sanitation we need to work with local governments and trying to work on sanitation systems in an entire area which they feel is a little bit outside of what is relevant the other thing is that I'm struggling with when you gave the example of the extension worker is that in my experience health extension workers have so many modules that they already need to do and it becomes like you need to you need to you need to you need to right and we've learned in BCC that it's important to prioritize to do one message to face those messages etc now just adding messages that is undermining that earlier I think that we really learned in BCC thank you for those comments Jean has put up a slide and you can comment as well a brief answer on that what is magical with washing newt is that you don't need you are not asked to do new things you are asked to do the same thing you were doing but to do it in another way for example so basically here you've got the five pillars of the washing newt strategy and it's in areas where where you have high malnutrition rates this is a pure strategic decision you're already doing wash activities if you focus these activities in areas where you have a high prevalence then you will impact on nutrition so it's not doing something new it's just doing it differently the issue of the minimum package we want to be sure that at all the levels of the society from the household let's say the public health centers there is a minimum standards of wash and this you are also doing it but of course it's a more comprehensive framework something very important also is to work to focus on the dyad between the mother and the child there are enormous connections on that you know for example that a woman who's got a low weight is going to produce a child with a low weight birth who is going to fall very easily in under nutrition so it's not to look only at one person but it's to look at the couple mother child behave your change and all the soft approach of wash is essential but this is also opening an opening door I mean we all know that building a latrine will not change the world if the person doesn't know how to use it or doesn't use it or doesn't want to use it and finally we need to improve our coordination intersectoral coordination it's exactly what Lisa was saying we are not working in a isolated silo we are working in an integrated framework and we need to keep that in mind maybe to add on that I think it is so important to understand that the different sectors use different languages and have different objectives and have different timeframes and it's extremely important to look and to work at the interface and it's not only wash and nutrition same is health same is governance we heard that this morning same is education so the interface is very complex and it's a big challenge how to address that and I think most important is to come up with very very simple approaches nothing what is the issue is complex but the genius thing is to develop different approaches which are very very simple and everybody can agree to so that people can step in from the other sectors and that you don't close the doors I think that is quite important just to endorse Antoinette Antoinette's point that you need to have strong sectors as some elements you need to you need to invest in understanding each other's sector but I'm not going to go into all of the sectors in one program I just come from Afghanistan where I actually suggested to have the water and sanitation section from UNICEF not integrated in health or education and why a simple one everybody many of us probably are familiar with some level of the Asian-French fusion kitchen if you have had a very nice meal I mean you really get excited about that what does it require a very good knowledge of the French kitchen a very good knowledge of the Asian kitchen and then you get an incredible menu can be done but if you just take a little bit of both you get maybe a soup maybe a salad you maybe lucky one time it works one time it doesn't work but you cannot repeat so I'm saying know your sector but start to really understand the other sector start to understand what the challenges are over health worker or a nutrition worker and see where the opportunities are that is such a nice lead over to lunch but you can just see everyone sort of begin to drool as you're speaking about this food and everyone but I did promise before we take one more online so in order to really make use of the people watching and listening well that was also a nice thing that Bella actually her last statement actually answered the question I'll just read the question up but Bella you don't need to repeat because you've already answered it the question was to you and was to say what advice do you have for other countries of how better they can connect to wash to the education ministry you've already answered that great answer lunches not too far away not only have we had this teaser that leads over to lunch I think you see there's much more to this topic that needs to be discussed and I hope this was a great teaser to get all of you to come to the seminar that's taking place on Tuesday at 11 please do come to that bring others that you feel would be relevant to this discussion and then we will carry over to the Susanna working group meeting which is then on the same day after lunch so it's yeah it's very close together and thereby I hope I can I can sort of justify cutting this discussion so short because we'll have plenty of time on Tuesday to discuss that in detail Trevor is showing we want to do a group photo so before everyone sort of runs off to grab a bite to eat to the restrooms where do we take the photo where do we meet how do we coordinate yeah in the corridor okay so a round of applause please for our panelists and then I would like everyone don't get caught up in chit chatter now take please move outside let's take the photo and then have a good lunch so so please please no forget if I get side tracks yeah better to do it a little bit earlier so are you based here no I'm with GIL Susanna okay so which one the first one okay perfect check if it's working it's working. Looks good. Thanks a lot. Here you go. Thank you very much. Can you wear any braids? You just join everybody and we'll be joining you. Yeah, I think it was fine. I think even maybe we will only use one for the dinner today. So I don't know how much we can get from the plane. I thought that you were there. But there was also for me. Oh yeah, David. Yes, I was present. I'm angry. I didn't know that you were part of the party. Yeah, but yeah, he was only doing it like a few seconds ago. I mean, you were. Yeah, ten minutes. Yes, we are. Just for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's disconnected. I know it's here. This one maybe? You just copy them. Do you have something in my teeth? No. Do I have something? No. Oh my god. So we are in session four. gender is gone. So we need, ah, there's Kate. Hi, hello. Yeah, we have the, um, the U.N. routine meeting. And I would like to say the name of the band. So. Yeah, thank you for with you and me. Kate. Hi. Hi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it does. The last part of them. Um, we need to make them as always, particularly as long as I can say that. Excuse to leave. Can you take out? Yeah. I'll be you want to, um, switch with, uh, Catherine, because you're now the first one in the session. Yeah. If you want, you can just switch with. What do you do? You prefer. It was Q and A after, after the others, but not me. Is that right? So we wanted to have two presentations using Catherine's and then have a question and answer. Right. And then the other two together. It's not really an objective. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. I think I've met you, but I've seen the same stuff. And, um, and Darren, he couldn't, uh, can you come to the circle? Yeah. So we have my friend who was chair of the session. Did you meet him already? No, I don't think so. Sorry. What did you say? It's Fred's alien. Oh. He was, uh, I'm going to introduce you to him. Yeah. I know all the speakers in the session, so we'll go and just look for him in a minute. So everything's running according to time? We're a little bit late in the morning. Yeah. We have a shorter lunch break. Yeah. We're running a bit late at the SDG and the discussion. Oh, yeah. We have interesting, interesting input, so it's always hard to, like, to shorten them down. Cut them down. Yeah. Everybody's super interested in SDG. There are still sandwiches if you haven't eaten. Oh, I have eaten. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Hi, Megan. Hi. Hi. Now I hear you. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. So, thank you. Yeah. I mean, if it's too busy to take a Skype call, maybe it's enough, she only tries to listen to the mail, that's a nice thing to do. But I think it would be good if you had to talk to Kathleen or if you had a Skype call with three of us. Are you here the whole week or back in the office on Wednesday? So I think she comes from back in the week on Wednesday as well. I know what I can say, but to you when you've got time. Yeah, but otherwise just look, you can also Skype because she has already done the first. She knows already how she did it for the first time. I will try to join of course, but... No, I'm sorry. We can look for a time slot to fit in. Great, so the main thing is just the timing. Because I think everyone knows now, especially some of you guys, because they know now, they've got a lot of them agreed. Especially how quickly we've organised this whole thing. So we just need to make sure that they post and that they register with Susanna. They didn't, so we need to look for that and that they know. Some people are not familiar with doing a post on a forum. So we did last time what Katrin can offer is to have a Skype call with them and showing them live. Katrin can just componite and like go and do the... How to actually do it. Yeah. Thank you so much. You put it here somewhere? Yeah, it's really open. It's open. Okay, it's here. Okay, perfect. This is Britt, I just introduced him. Hi. Nice to finally arrive. Yes, I've been here since Thursday evening. You and also thanks for coming. Sorry. Okay. I'm sure your presentation is just one request. I mean, just to explain how the session was. I think you will be speaking about sanitation safety. Sanitation safety. Right. It's a tool that has been developed by WHO and hasn't been implemented yet. Yeah, it's been six months. It's been six months. I couldn't talk about this today. You would be more an expert in the presentation part. I think I'll just explain what the tool is. I'll just give a little brief taste of what's going on in some of the companies. Yeah. Yeah, it's a screenshot. Yeah. But my request to you would be by the end of the session, by the end of your presentation, could you just give me a form to take on this? Basically, giving Susanna members or more or less asking them what do you require from them or what can Susanna do in terms of developing the tool or using it somewhere and so on and so forth. The whole idea today for the session was what can Susanna members do in terms of developing the tool and how they can collaborate in an effort to help. I think I have a slide that's basically exactly for that. Yeah, but just near the end, when you... Yeah, I think my last slide is actually there. Okay. Can I turn it off? Anne, how do you pronounce your name? Middle class. Okay. Okay. Is that a busy day? Running around? Um... I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And if you've seen the session, I'll put two presentations. We'll put them back to you. And then we'll have the questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sanitation... Safety planning is more startable with the guidelines or based on what we use. Um, and then... If you want to be able to reply... Okay. Yeah. Welcome to you all to the fourth session of today, Cities and Planning. My name is Britt Sallian. Um, I represent ISAN Associates. Unfortunately, Darren Sabo couldn't make it for the meeting. So I have the honour and pleasure of taking the chair from him. Before I start, there's a little announcement Magdalena needs to make very quickly. I am the doorkeeper, you know, when I had some question and announcement for the last session. We were talking about knowing what the other sector is doing and vice versa. So, you know, we were talking about nutrition. Nutrition links up to the water and sanitation sector, but it also links up to the agriculture and the security sector. And water is linked to both food security and nutrition. And for your knowledge, there is a huge UN report being launched Monday afternoon. This is a report that has been developed by the Committee for Global Food Security, which consists of all the UN member states, the private sector and the civil society. They work together on these reports and they have a high level panel writing a report every year. This year, it's about water. We had a big battle with CV to be able to bring this very accurate and important report to the World Water Week and we will present it with our Secretary of State and the FAO representative from Ethiopia on Monday at four o'clock in the afternoon. And why is it important? Well, it's actually a report of the state of art the interaction of water, food security and nutrition. It has a lot of recommendations on both water and sanitation and one of the conclusions that these food security experts comes to that there will be no food security nor nutrition without wash. But we don't know about it. So we are most welcome. I just want to announce this and I hope to see many of you on this because this is where it's also very important that we have a civil society there because unfortunately the constituency so please join us and join the discussion about this very important report. We don't know anything about it but it's out and it will be decided on October. This is CUNCFS HLPE report number nine, Water for Food Security and Nutrition. So they have been doing this. This is more than 150 pages with recommendations for everyone. The government, the private sector, the civil society and the research. So welcome to this session and express your opinion about what you want to say regarding water, sanitation and nutrition. Thank you very much Mark Dillena for the timely announcement. Okay, let's start off the session, Cities and Planning. We have a very interesting lineup of four presentations in this session and of course given the hot topics that we are going to discuss will be shut. So I would kindly request the presenters to wrap up their presentation 10 minutes flat. We have two presentations back to back and then we will go in for a round of question and answers and discussion. Just hope it doesn't explode. Okay, without wasting any time I would like to invite our first presenter today Ms. Kate Middlecon. She is a technical officer for the water, sanitation, hygiene and health from the Department of Public Health and Environment, the World Health Organization. Kate. Thank you. I'm embarrassed to say actually this is the first Susanna meeting I've come to but I hope to be more of a regular a tender in future. And as was presented I'm the team leader for sanitation at WHO and I think maybe the reason I haven't been here in the past is because we haven't I think WHO is really well known for our work in drinking water safety but sanitation safety is becoming a bigger and bigger thing. So I'm here today to present to you the Sanitation Safety Planning Manual which we published just a couple of months ago on the back of around three and a half years' time. So no pressure on the time Trevor, I'll try and rattle through this but I just wanted to acknowledge the many people that helped in this effort specifically Airwagens was TPH, and lots of scientists and experts who contributed to the risk assessment. So I just wanted to give you a bit of a background about what this is all about and why WHO has a strong interest in this. We all know we always kind of have this rhetoric we do sanitation for health but actually kind of really understanding the specific health risks linked to sanitation systems often plays quite a small role in the planning and we're trying to kind of bring health back to the centre of sanitation safety planning. And on top of this we recently published the burden of disease estimates for diarrhea and they really clearly showed that yes sanitation is good for reducing diarrhea but if you can actually manage the sanitation chain the reduction in risk is actually a lot higher. And also a reference to the next speaker but the exposure through unintentional use of sanitation waste is really quite high. And we're also seeing this kind of this amazing time happening with sanitation businesses and the health risks associated with reuse are one of the big barriers to these sanitation businesses so we see sanitation safety planning as a tool and being able to proactively manage and communicate the health risks associated with these businesses. And some people say to me why is WHO promoting this stuff and the quick answer to that really is we're not necessarily promoting it but acknowledging that this is happening and that if it's going to happen then here's how it can be done more safely. And lastly just to say that we sort of see this tool as having a role to play in the equity discussion because often the health risks accumulate to the most vulnerable and often where the investment goes is not necessarily there so we hope this can bring that aspect into focus a little. So what is sanitation safety planning? Some of you may really be familiar with water safety planning. It uses the same risk assessment and management principles of water safety planning and it builds on the 2006 WHO guidelines for safe use of wastewater, greywater and excreta. But what we're seeing is applications of it a little bit broader than just those guidelines. So who's it for? This has to be anchored firstly with health authorities and eventually a policy and regulatory home but also with direct use by local authorities. We're seeing nice uptake by sanitation enterprises and farmers, interests from utilities and also as I mentioned these sanitation enterprises that are coming out of lots of community-based organisations and NGOs. So I'm just going to really quickly run you through what it's about. So it's a step-based risk assessment approach with six steps. So the first is really understanding who's involved in the sanitation chain really trying to get the main actors around the table and to develop a sanitation safety planning team. The second is to really understand what the system is. This sounds kind of basic but it's quite amazing. I'm sure you all know that quite often people don't know where the waste is coming from, where it's going to and how it's being used. So developing a system diagram or for those of you who are engineers like me, you may prefer something a bit more process-oriented and showing the key exposure groups at each of those steps of the sanitation chain. Then it's looking at the risk assessment itself. So for each of those parts, trying to understand what is the likelihood and severity of the hazards at each step. And then just a really simple kind of process of saying, okay, well if these are the risks, how can we prioritise what to do about it? How can we work with the resources that are available to us to make improvements all the way along the sanitation chain? So that's not necessarily just doing more treatment, but looking at other barriers along the chain. And then the final thing of course is monitoring. So understanding where are we going to monitor and what are we going to do when the system falls outside those operating limits. And then of course, this principle of continuous improvement in regular reviews, we all know that systems are not static, they change all the time, so building in a process of regular review. So I just wanted to give, I realise that's all quite theoretical and maybe I can ground this really quickly in some of the examples of where we've been working on this. So you'll see there there's H places, seven, eight cities we've been working on this approach and just to talk a little bit about what's been done there. This is I think one of our best examples that came out of the Philippines and we first started talking to the Philippines they were going, oh yeah, we'll do a sanitation safety plan for our main wastewater treatment plant. And then when we kind of got the stakeholders around the table they were like, you know we have no idea what's happening to Fecal Sludge in the city there's lots of it, let's do our SSP on that. And they came up with a really beautiful plan of investigating where it's going deciding what they were going to do about it and a monitoring plan which is which they're putting into practice now. Another is Lima might be a country lots of you are familiar with huge agricultural production of vegetables on the period in areas of Lima. Again I won't go into the details of this but they've used sanitation safety planning to look at how they ensure those vegetables which pile into the city are safer. Kampala as well, they've been working in the swamp area downstream of the wastewater treatment plant and are looking now with GIZ to see how they scale that up to build it into the city sanitation safety plan. Vietnam also, this was a slightly different kind of application of SSP and I'm trying to show you the variety because we're unlike water safety planning which is quite homogenous I would say the applications for SSP are really varied as varied as sanitation systems are but this one was an example where they were using the SSP for co-composting of fecal sludge and municipal solid waste to create organic fertilizer. And this is an example from which is on the Periurban areas of Bangalore and okay, I'm going. This is that one sorry, I went too fast for myself, hang on. Oh, it's moving really slowly. No pressure. I just wanted to say here, this is one from Portugal and Portugal have really embraced this so just to point out this is not for only for developing countries there's great applications in developing countries as well and the European Union is looking at a European-wide mechanism for safe reuse. So I mean this is the take-home piece what next, I mean we want to see this kind of picked up and used and adapted and we want to hear about what works, what doesn't work so I guess the final point to leave you on is please come by the WHO stand. There's a massive stack of the manuals you can pick up and use and not only that we don't want to just give you a manual and say there you go, we're actually on hand to send trainers out to organisations who are ready to give it a go and to support you through developing sanitation safety plans. So yeah, my contact details are there and if you're interested please get in touch. Thanks for keeping the time. So right, moving on to our second presentation which is also another tool I'd like to ask Catherine Robb to come over. Catherine is a public health programme associate at the Centre for Global Safe Water at Emroy University and Catherine is going to present the Sunnypad Rapid Assessment Tool. Hi, I'm Kate Robb and I'm the Associate Director of Research Projects at the Centre for Global Safe Water at Emroy University and I'll be talking about the Sandypad Rapid Assessment Tool the tool for assessing public health risks from unsafe vehicle sludge management in poor urban neighbourhoods. The cities of our world are rapidly growing. By 2050 the UN projects that 65% of the city's population are in poor urban neighbourhoods. And this rapid growth has outpaced the ability of many governments to provide basic services like sanitation. I've shown here a excreta flow or ship flow diagram which Arnie will talk more about in the next presentation but just briefly it shows the proportion of waste that's treated safely versus unsafe in a city. We can see down here at the end we see that in a city with a good amount of coverage in onsite sanitation still 98% of the vehicle sludge ends up back in the environment untreated. But questions remain about where is this should actually ending up back in the environment and what are the associated public health risks. In the urban environment there are multiple pathways of exposure to vehicle contamination. Exposure can occur through contact with open drains, consumption of municipal drinking water, flood water exposure to unhygienic public latrines, consumption of wastewater irrigated produce, contact with recreational or other surface waters and many other pathways. And given these complex exposure routes with different levels of contamination and different types of contact it's been difficult to determine what kinds of interventions might have the biggest impact on reducing exposure. Local governments and development partners lack evidence based tools to assess the relative public health risks from vehicle contamination. And little is known about what pathways of exposure pose the greatest public health risk. Or what are the public health implications of poor vehicle sludge management for poor neighborhoods. And policy makers prioritize sanitation investments that might have the biggest impact on reducing public health risk. To meet this gap we developed the Sanipath Rapid Assessment Tool which is designed to assess public health risks related to poor sanitation and to help prioritize sanitation investments based on the exposures that have the greatest public health impact. We designed the tool based on an in-depth risk assessment that we conducted in California and the tool is a systematic and customizable method to collect relevant data on exposure to vehicle contamination in low income urban environments. The tool is designed to be used by community government and development partners to help guide decision making and advocacy surrounding urban sanitation. And the tool synthesizes data using an open source software package. And the tool so far we've used it in Accra, India and Maputo, Mozambique. The following pathways in the public domain can be assessed using the tool. Flood water exposure to surfaces and public latrines, soil in public areas, surface waters, public drinking and bathing water, wastewater irrigated produce, and open drains. Two kinds of data are used as inputs for the tool. We use behavioral exposure data and environmental microbiology data. For the behavioral exposure data we conduct surveys on the reported frequency of exposure that leads to exposure to vehicle contamination. So for example we ask questions like how often do you come into contact with open drains? How often do you consume municipal drinking water? Things like that. For the environmental microbiology data we collect environmental samples from the relevant pathways. So samples of drinking water, samples of oil, samples of drain water. And we analyze those for E. coli, a common indicator of vehicle contamination. The data are then combined to show the relative risk of exposure. We show the first the frequency data and the contamination data separately. So in the pie chart we show the frequency of exposure to in this case raw produce of children in a neighborhood in Ghana. And we can see that the majority of children consume raw produce every day. About 6% consume raw produce never and the rest fall somewhere in the middle. And then we have samples of produce from that same neighborhood and this histogram shows the distribution of contamination on samples of raw produce. We then bring the behavioral frequency and the environmental contamination data together along with other parameters like intake volume duration of exposure, transfer efficiencies. Here we've shown the frequency and environmental data for public drinking water. We bring those together to form a risk profile. The tool uses a Bayesian analysis to estimate the distribution of contamination and the frequency of exposure. And then the mean dose and proportion of the population exposed are summarized in these risk plots which I'll explain on the next page. So these risk profiles here we see exposure to drinking water in two neighborhoods one in Ghana, one in India. The proportion of the population in red or pink are the people exposed green are the unexposed and the intensity of the red or pink color shows how high the average dose of fecal contamination is. So here we see that a greater proportion of the population is exposed each month in this neighborhood in India compared to the neighborhood in Ghana and that the average dose consumed is higher in India as evidenced by the darker color red of the people in the diagram. We can also use these diagrams to compare risks within a neighborhood so each of these plots are for the same neighborhood in Ghana and we see separately adults on the top and children on the bottom and by looking at the ratio of red to green we can see what proportion of the population is on average exposed each month and then looking at the darkness of the red color we can see how high the dose is. So here in this neighborhood it looks like raw produce is not only the darkest color red or the highest dose of fecal contamination but also the greatest proportion of the population exposed so in this neighborhood it may make sense to target an intervention towards reduction or reducing wastewater irrigated produce or finding alternatives so that there isn't as much wastewater irrigated produce in use. One thing I want to point out here is that you may be thinking for the open drains and drinking water that the color of the red is very similar and you may think open drains are much more contaminated so why is that? And that's because we take into account the intake volume. For the drain water people consume a very small amount whereas drinking water they consume a lot more and it ends up at least in this neighborhood averaging out to a similar dose. So in summary the tools used to guide users through the collection of relevant data to estimate relative public health risk. The tool provides users with an easy to use software interface for data collection that can be customized to fit different country contexts. The tool synthesizes data to guide community government and service providers in their decision making. Some of the limitations are that the tool is designed for use at a neighborhood level and not a city level and it doesn't actually measure health outcomes but stops at exposure. The tools will work in progress and we're working to try to get the tool used as much as possible so we can keep learning and keep improving the tool. Right now we're working on adapting the tool to optimize the user interface and some of the output. We're also working to identify candidate cities for tool deployment where major sanitation interventions are being considered and we're developing a stakeholder advisory board. In conclusion I'd like to make an appeal to the members of the Susanna forum for input. We're looking for suggestions about where we can deploy the Sandy Path Rapid Assessment Tool and ideas for partners who are working at the city level and interested in deploying the tool to inform sanitation interventions. We're looking for partners who could use these kinds of data in their work or institutions that would be good candidates to learn how to use the tool. Lastly we're also looking for suggestions for candidates for our advisory committee to help us understand more about what are the greatest challenges facing sanitation decision makers at what scale are decision makers most interested in safety versus neighborhood and how can we best engage potential users of the tool, how can we best convey risk results visually how can we facilitate the translation of the tool recommendations into actionable interventions. I'd like to thank everyone involved in this project from multiple institutions and you can download the Sandy Path Rapid Assessment Tool from SandyPath.com It's an older version that's there right now but we're working on a newer version that will be available sometime this fall. So thank you. Thank you very much Catherine. So gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen we've seen two tools quite handy I think for practitioners and quite interesting to use in the sanitation planning process I would say. I'd like to open the floor for question and answers. Let's take a set of five questions first before you state it. Before you state it please your name and organization as well as whom is the question or the comment directed to. Please. Let's have a show of hands. For the presentation I know from what the safety planning that there are these very nice risk assessment forms so that it's very well used to understand and then you immediately get a rank so how high is the risk of this water supply. So is there something similar that you have in this part? I mean that is especially relevant I think for decentralized systems so that was my first question. Second question, there was also developed a sort of wash safety plan so I know one publication somewhere around that. So what is the difference between wash safety planning? I am Susan Davis and I'm tired I'm going to sit down with Improved International and I'm curious with the water safety planning and you said there's a lot of well there's a lack of information about where fecal sludge is going and how do you find that out? Do you have shit detectives? I mean track it down. Alan Reed from GOAL. Just a question on the sunny path you say it's a rapid assessment tool but it looked quite involved I wonder if you could just elaborate on your experience of you know maybe cost as well how long that takes and some cost but I'd also be interested in talking about Naropa as well. Yes thank you this is just a question from online for Catherine, I'll slightly paraphrase it basically just wanting to find out the work that you've been doing in sunny path for how much longer do you have funding to do it and if that is in the near future where is the funding going to come from to continue the work just so that folks have an idea of how long this work is going on for. Answer to your question, yes there are the same kind of risk assessment tools in there and you know you can apply them in the same way I think the thing that's really different is that with water safety planning you've just got one exposure group and that's the person who's drinking the water at the end of the pipe and for the sanitation safety planning there's multiple exposures and the risk assessment is a bit harder and I think that's a nice kind of link with sunny path there because the thing about water and sanitation safety planning is that we're targeting the people who manage these systems and they're not necessarily people who can do a complicated risk assessment so the tools are there we would always encourage that there's kind of someone from the local academia who can be involved to do it a really robust risk assessment but maybe to answer the question over here about how people do that in practice I mean there's this principle of continuous improvement so honestly with some of these the way they do it is just walking around sniffing and just looking at where things are going and that risk assessment can get more robust over time but we the point is applying these kind of principles with the risk assessment as the backbone of the approach by which you then start looking at improvement and monitoring that's within the means of the group doing it so this is all trying to get away from really kind of rigid threshold values for effluent and other things and trying to take a more pragmatic approach to managing systems when you asked about combining the water safety plans I think that's a really fair point I mean people if we were to be entirely holistic then we would do water and sanitation safety plans and I think all is one process I think that works quite well at a small community level where things are kind of compact enough that you can analyse it like that once you're getting to kind of the city scale the stakeholders and the approach becomes a bit unwieldy I think and it's probably a bit more acceptable to do water safety planning and sanitation safety planning separately but we certainly don't want to constrain people's use of it if you can make it work like that great thanks for the question so I'll start with the question about the rapidness of the Sanypath Rapid Assessment Tool so we call it rapid because the original study that we did to figure out how we wanted to do exposure assessment in urban slums took over a year and cost over two million dollars to try to assess all the different conceivable pathways of exposure to fuel contamination based on that study we really narrowed it down to what pathways and what kinds of methods were really giving us the most bang for the buck and we narrowed it down to now the study takes about a month in each place depending on how many relevant pathways there are so for example in ocean there's no surface water if people don't consume wastewater irrigated produce if there's ways you can cut down the different pathways and it's faster if there's lots of pathways then it can take a little longer and as far as the labor involved so you need a team of enumerators who can do the surveys and a team who can go out and do the sampling so usually we have between four and five enumerators and five environmental samplers and then several lab technicians who are analyzing the samples and we try to collect at least ten environmental samples per exposure pathway so the cost really depends on what local labor costs in a given context plus supplies for the microbial analyses which are several dollars on average if you already have the equipment per sample and as far as funding we just got a supplemental grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to continue our work for the next two and a half years but one of the big goals of this new chunk of funding is to try to make the tool self-sustaining and so we're looking for ways that we can get the tool used more often and to have different cost sharing initiatives so that the tool is used by different governments that there's different capacity developed to use the tool independently and that eventually the tool won't require any involvement from Emory in order to deploy successfully. Thank you. Okay, one brief question to each presenter thank you very much both of you so Kate I just wondered how much this sanitation safety planning tool sort of incorporates the sort of retail methodology of the sanny path and of the shit flow diagram which we'll hear about in the next presentation and will it be necessary to update the publication Catherine I mean congratulations to Emory to your group for elaborating this tool which I think is simple but very necessary WSP is actually applying it to testing it as part of its vehicle sludge management diagnostic toolkit so it will hopefully sit within a toolkit that we're producing my question I mean it's I think we've made great advances but I just wanted the extent to which you think the tool is complete in mapping the pathways between the underlying risk which is the sort of the the fecal waste where it gets to and then how it gets onto people and into their mouths essentially so are you looking at the sort of fingers and food dimension and for fluids for drinking water are you taking samples from tap water and from the glasses that people drink from maybe in there drinking water source but if they treat it at home then you've sort of mitigated the risk partly or fully so yeah sorry the challenge but I think it's important to have a complete understanding of why people are getting sick thank you would you like to answer the question right away yeah so just in terms of those two other tools I think they're kind of complementary and especially the sanipath I mean I think the thing that's different with sanipath and sanitation safety planning is that tell me if I'm wrong but I think it's kind of more diagnostic and that's the part that the SSP manages quite struggle with and the SSP is more of a management tool so I think it can really be integrated to make the risk assessment stronger so that the management approaches are actually more relevant so I think we could certainly do that and then with the SFD stuff yes I think that works at the kind of the city or maybe even national scale that's all kind of in the wash but the SSP can be applied at lots of different scales and it really applies mostly to the management boundaries of the people who are so for example if you're a business who's co-composting fecal sludge and making compost then the kind of flow pathways are within that chain which is not necessarily the same chain as the SFD but so I think the principles can be applied and maybe we could update it, I haven't really thought about it that far though Thanks for your question and it's a good one so in our in-depth exposure assessment in Ghana that's where we really did a much more comprehensive look at what are these different exposure pathways and not just you know from drain water to the mouth but how it's actually getting there and how we have a number how many hours but several hundred hours of structured observation watching young children interact in their environment and how frequently they're putting their hand to the mouth how much time they spend in open drains what the contamination is in those open drains how often they're feeding, how often they're drinking water, what kind of water, all that and we're able to do a much more nuanced risk assessment with that with the rapid tool we've made a lot of different trade-offs in order to make it rapid so for example we just take municipal drinking water we don't take water samples within the home and part of that is because we see more of city level decision making happening at the municipal level and trying to improve municipal drinking water rather than more of a behavioral intervention of treating drinking water in the home so we don't take into account we actually do ask about whether or not people drink their water but right now our models don't take into account whether or not that water is treated although we certainly could try to do that in the future and there may be other relevant pathways and if any of you have ideas about maybe you're thinking of a city and there's an exposure pathway that we haven't captured we'd love to hear about that so we can include it but I guess in each of these pathways there's a lot of assumptions built in about what do we think our transfer efficiencies from soil to hand to mouth all that kind of stuff that is all kind of built into the tool in the back end and can be customized but it's one of the trade-offs in making it rapid we're running out of time I'll take four questions and yeah thank you very brief yes I I'm interested in how ultimately this leads to local governments being able to deliver better services yeah so I was going to explain that but there's no time for that but what we're seeing is in Indonesia for example there has been this tool which is environmental health risk assessment that was developed by Christine Seibesma from IRC and also with a lot of support from Isabel Blakke and that has now been implemented I think in over 100 cities and I think what we're seeing is it's also a neighborhood approach what we're seeing is that it does a lot to sensitize people about the importance but it doesn't really translate ultimately to better services and sometimes the tools we are making are very good to sensitize and put issues on the table but they're not as easy and practical to apply in order to really come to those better solutions so I'm asking you how do you see the future is this a research that you're doing with a lot of applications of Sunnypad and maybe even the sanitation safety plans where ultimately there will come some generic lessons and priorities out of this or do you see this as a tool that will continuously be used at local level to define their own priorities etc just a question related to the Sunnypad research how do you define children because you had adults and children very useful but children are also the zero to one to one to four adolescents very quickly thank you very much after WSP we have the SPP the water and sanitation plan we've got the sanitation safety plan what have you thought of maybe mixing the two because actually they're both relevant and they're both integrated actually water and sanitation so I think I liked about the WSP not the water and sanitation program of the World Bank but the water and sanitation plan that you had, the water safety plan you had this vision from the beginning to the end including sanitation as well so where are we now with this issue and then for the MRE I recognize also the excellent work that the MRE University is doing so great job and I'm just trying to share you know we just came back I was saying from Kinshasa we're trying to implement some sanitation issues because sanitation is almost zero there for 13 million people the thing is the technology we got different aspects and we try to you know get everything okay but the big issue was a business issue was trying to get this thing moving and sustainable and that it could be running by itself because going through a tax system was not possible going through cost recovery issues, traditional cost recovery was not a really issue so how do you get this moving actually financially so this business approach was actually the crucial thing to look at thank you very quick answers quickly on that linking again with water safety planning and sanitation safety planning absolutely and I think that's where it's heading but the application of them in the same place seems to be working best in some of the things that are coming out of the European region and small communities not to say it couldn't be done elsewhere but that's where we're at with it now to quickly pick up on your point with businesses and I think that's maybe a place where WHO can add a bit of value we're finding from the business side that they find it kind of helpful to be able to say yes we are proactively managing the system according to a methodology you know that's recommended by WHO so I think it gives them some legitimacy to some of these business that have been kind of forced to operate informally or with a lot of questions around their operation and then your question about planning and how you kind of embed this and I think maybe as a parting comment it's quite nice to see you know there's the other tool you mentioned there's SSP and but I think it's really great we're having a discussion at all about risk based sanitation planning whether we use that the sanding path brand or WHO's SSP brand it doesn't from our side it's kind of less important than the fact that we're doing risk based planning and I think where the SSP kind of helps as you say is to try and kind of embed this into a planning and management process so going beyond the identification of risks but really making a multi-sector plan about what to do about it within the resources that are available so we're learning and going ahead with it but it seems to be filling that purpose where we're trying it so far. Thanks so to answer the question about use of the tool by governments and kind of the future of the tool one of our research objectives for this new stage of our grant is to try to figure out how the tools actually could be used. Right now we've applied the tool in three places but we haven't actually seen up taking use of the results for any kind of policy or intervention decisions and that's something that we really want to try to see and so we're going to be one of our goals is to try to partner with groups who can use the tool and try to learn from how this information is used and I guess our goal is that it would be a tool that's used in different city or development partners indefinitely but I think another outcome that would be also very relevant is creating essentially a database of what exposure looks like in different cities that then could be used by other cities to say oh like this is this was a problem in this city we have a similar profile to the city you know maybe wastewater irrigated produce is a problem for us too or maybe it's open drains or whatever so I think we're open to seeing kind of how it evolves and that's definitely embedded within our research question for this grant as far as how we define children so in this rapid assessment it's children who are between the ages of about 8 to 12 and we ask children the survey questions in school so that's why we've kind of honed in on that target age group thinking that children younger than that probably won't have be able to really articulate how frequently they do these different activities and because a lot of these pathways aren't necessarily relevant for very young children we did do some of this in a sub-study in India where we did we do have some data on children under 5 but it's limited time sorry and you have any more questions comments you could always catch them for a coffee and without any further do I would ask Anna to come up and present the progress in the shit flow diagrams yes we were talking in many Susanna meetings when we were discussing the compendium of sanitation systems how important it is to have the systems approach not only to look at the toilet but to look at the chain that's been reflected in a number of presentations today as well so I was excited when I saw the first excreta flow or sludge flow or shit flow diagram presented by WSP two years back because there it was a diagram that has the systems approach has the hopeful chain looks at centralized and decentralized systems and brings it all into one picture I was really excited about it and I was even more excited when the discussion came up can't these diagrams be sort of hosted Harvard Susanna as a neutral place because more and more people are getting interested in it and that's why we got a one year grant from the Gates Foundation to get that going and we're currently talking about the next phase of three years so where are we and I have not talked in close enough to the mic I hope the people out there have heard something the origin is the review more detailed on fecal sludge management in 12 cities by WSP which appeared in March there the diagram is just one element it's as well very much on service delivery assessment in the different categories who is if there's no money to maintain an infrastructure if there's no capacity to run it properly then to put an investment is wrong so a number of analyzes was there and in April 2014 there was this missing link in sanitation service delivery research brief that's how it started I just phrased that and in last year it was Peter Hawkins from WSP who in this room explained the approach and in the core group meeting we said yes it's a great idea to have that on the website and to be have Susanna sort of the place where this happens so now we had workshops in Hanoi and Dhaka and this year in August we launch the portal and that will be in a longer event in on 26th launch of the SFD portal room FH 202 and then we'll have 90 minutes to go into more detail on that and in the afternoon there's another workshop where one of the tables as well will concentrate on the diagrams and their use the initiative is GIZ together with the University of Leeds Barbara Evans there WEDEC that's Rebecca the Airwark and from WSP it's Isabel Blackhead and Peter Hawkins who are involved in the Gates Foundation it's funding it thanks to the foundation and thanks to everybody of the group that they are thinking Susanna is a good place to do that this is now sort of if you think of all possible options then this is the summary of all options so the real ones are simpler but you see the chain on the top the upper half is sort of what happens in centralized systems and the lower half is what happens in onsite systems and the small one is an open defecation and I talked about visualizing tool that summarizes and presents what happens to excreta in cities one example is Moshi Tanzania this idea was brought in and for stakeholders for ministries of Moshi or from the administration came together in any case they wanted to have a strategy on how do they deal with sanitation so this idea to develop jointly a diagram was there and they got very excited about it and I think that's the best way to do it if the city itself is sort of then discussing is it so much or is it more and on what data we can rely because then it's very much owned by the cities and then you have the upper part which is usually the smaller one which is sort of legalized there are sewers treatment plans you can get data on them but you have the fecal sludge management which is open often informal or illegal so how can you get official data on something which is not official so there it comes that you have to guess that you have to estimate and that the data will not be it's important that the data are credible because you're transparent how you get them and what's the variation in them and it's the best situation if an administration itself is sitting together we always said that if this diagram now you had the example of Dhaka where it's where there's a very little central system and there's many percent of of onsite systems so if the reaction would be okay let's build a treatment plan but there's only 5 percent sewers so 95 percent of the problem is not addressed by any treatment plan so that's a very simple message but if you have parts in a central system is it? No, it's again the upper one is quite small but even if you have then it could be a mistake to build a large infrastructure if you don't have the money to maintain it and don't have the capacity to maintain it that's why we said that the context description on what sort of the service delivery context is very important not to have misleading messages that's sort of the diagram never comes alone it comes with general city information with a service delivery context what are the outcomes of services, how do they work which stakeholders were involved to produce the diagram what's the credibility of the data I was mentioning that and then what was the process of developing it and then list of data sources as well to be transparent there we're aiming to develop 50 of those and thereby influencing how the sector talks about sanitation not just toilet but having that sanitation chain approach there and looking at the whole picture and I think that would be a great achievement to come there we've made a web portal which is part of the Susanna portal where you'll find all the informations up to now mainly the I8 drafts of city cities and just sort of citing the 12 cities from the WSP study and the methodology and tools are coming in the next weeks and months because they were very busy to get them ready and there are lots of requests on how can I do it but that's exactly the aim what we want to achieve one thing is to spread the word here in Stockholm the other thing is that now really to include more Susanna partners feedback from Susanna once we have the tools there to really on the methodology how you like it how to roll it out and these are sort of the points of discussion, can SFD be a game changer for cities what are the challenges what are the opportunities I'm quite convinced that they can influence the discourse in the right direction that it's not toilet concentrated but it's on the chain are you on of the same opinion how to best put it into practice how to have many Susanna partners sort of promoting it getting it done and well how to address these opportunities with Susanna, thank you Thanks Anna unfortunately we are still quite short on time I would quickly ask Professor Thomas Kluub to come up for his presentation Thanks a lot for invitation I have ten minutes I know that I will give you a case study example and build some connections to my partners talking about how to improve sanitation practices I'm telling you from a case study in North Central Namibia Namibia is one of the triest countries of the world and the region where we are acting since ten years is characterised by a change of flooding time in rainy season and tri-season of seven to eight months and therefore we build it together with the national integrated water resources management plan a pilot project you can see it's located in south the border of Angola in North Central Namibia and what we shaped together with the people on the ground is a variety of sanitation facilities at first we did it together with the University of Technical University of Darmstadt with Namibian Ministry of Water Affairs and with our institute called Institute for Social Ecological Research what we realised here you can see is that we discussed first with the people what are the needs how we can shape sanitation facilities you see here the so-called check dwellers area there is people in self care and there are related erected houses very small houses and there we connected them to an sewage system and we built it up a wash house embedded in a informal settlement and the third thing we built it up is the so-called cluster power and hand washing facility and all this sewage is collected and brought to anaerobic pre-treatment where we also realising the sludge brain-toon drying bed so that the sludge is hygiene sized and we are using also mesongars for self-suntaining the electrical infrastructure and it's by an aerobic process pre-fight and we have after this rotating biological contactor a micro-straining because the population is affected by helmet X in a big percentage and after that it's an UV disinfection installed and this where we before derived energy it's full with nutrients like nitrogen, carium, phosphate and brought to this pond and then we take it by trip irrigation for irrigation that means we are closing the whole chain between sanitation and reuse and it is one of the key elements reuse for this region on the longer run to manage the water problem because this town we are working in the moment is doubling every three years and this is an approach where we can adapt to this enormous growing process and we are realising the semi-central approach also in China in parts of Germany and here also in Africa and I think the main message is from this project that we have to realise some I can say problems and also challenges how to organise the governance of maybe the wash house it's a frequency to 250 people per day people is coming from Mongolia and also from the town from the informal settlements and there is to find out the balance between the calculation of entrance fee and also the water amount is used in the cluster unit I want only to show that the committees organising these clusters it's a self-organised cleaning system there is a challenge also between the town council and the committees to organise this work in a good manner very simple is it in the check dwellers in the individual houses and if you look to this chain between wash house cluster units individual houses it's also a mirror in the development of the town on the longer run and challenges to deal in this context that means to look to the governance structure that it's working good the main challenge for us war where how is accepted to water reuse for irrigation means in human consumption to irrigate vegetables and I showed before the technical details and you can see that step by step it's 100 million equally and same water viruses it's diminished in the whole chain of purification that you can see you are on the shore side with this water and this is a precondition you cannot realise water reuse without technical line like this of the challenges I think for the future that we cannot go under this preconditions if you want to realise water reuse for human conditions for human consumption under these conditions this is one of the main messages I want to bring out we also had an open communication this communication in this project will only show you how it's in this indigenous language formulated you can see to wear gum boots and gloves and also hand washing applying pesticides and all these things if you are communicating in advance it is accepted also by the people the products are sold on the local market and very highly accepted if I have two minutes more I'm in time what we learned now is that in this region the normal wastewater flow goes to so-called evaporation ponds you see it here in these more technical slides the water is collected in ponds and they are filled up with sludge and on the top is water that's a normal situation and in every rainy season it's flooding over and colour breakout is coming into the people that's a normal situation and we are looking also to manage this in the sense that we are building here in first an anaerobic unit where we can build a trap for this sludge and to manage this sludge in the sense that it's hygienically good managed and after that on the end more simple techniques for purifying the water that means it's fit for purposes like irrigation for fodder, for animal fodder or something like that on the last here you can see this is the KUWUWATAS project approach but it's in a high technical state so we are looking in the moment also to deal with this system and I like to close with this remark that if we on the long run like to manage the water crisis in this country there's no way against water reuse and water reclamation because this whole country is on this part one and a half million people on the Konene river and the Konene river hasn't any more the eco flow in the moment and we have the third years of trinus and we have to look after the preconditions what does that mean water reuse and water reclamation in such country, parts of countries affected by climate change Thank you very much It's an interesting presentation on the practical application of water reclamation and reuse Alright, we have five minutes left floor is open for questions Just a question that came in from online from Elizabeth Vermoonch for Thomas Kluge she says how is O&M funded beyond September 2015 when the current funding ends What I showed is in full ownership of the town of Utapi and the project is ending this year in December and then it's in full property of the town of Utapi and the time was very short the biggest challenge was the capacity development that we were able to train the people in the manner on the field side and on this plant So it's full of working now Yeah, I had a question to Arne Is he around? So the prospects of rolling out the SFD analysis to more cities around the world is it still at the stage of you developing an appropriate technique an appropriate process or how close are you to being able to pull a lot of effort and have many cities 100,000 cities I think there are different dimensions one is that there is demand on different levels like in Moshi there are other examples where cities just see the diagram and it's a tool for them to talk to each other they don't care about the context description and some details of methodology they go with it and that's a trend and we try to support this and to go with that simple thing there's a second dimension where it's maybe the best example is India they have a very sophisticated process of city sanitation planning they have a national strategy for city sanitation and there the tool is just adding at a certain point and can be sort of embedded the question is will it be embedded it seems yes it seems it's really useful and there is then that we with this initiative try to bring the whole range of tools to say that what is a credible context description what's the minimum you need where I would say that we're getting simpler we're getting more user friendly but now we have eight up on the website in a draft version we hope in February to have 50 up there and in the second phase to concentrate on being closer to the demand of cities and to test what we have is it suitable for what cities can do and want so the short answer is it's not that we're ready now but I think we have done quite a part of the way in that direction thank you for your presentation I have another question to Arne and it's I want to look at the link to the SDGs and the monitoring one thing that what you're doing is a good inventory that could be possibly used for like the monitoring of the SDG is that something you have been looking at and the second one is also grey water for example more integrated waste water management how do you incorporate that kind of questions into your models to be very inspiring so if you talk with somebody has a new idea how to use it use it for emergency camps use it for mapping of health exposure use it for mapping of business opportunities use it for a national level and we're trying to as well sort of harvest these ideas and to document them we're starting with that so that's one dimension and the other thing is that in the morning we were saying that actually we need cities and nations to be motivated to gather data only then we can get the data we need on the higher level so SFDs are seen to have potential to to support this process and the project is actually then asking the question can you never compare to cities because every city will make use of the diagram and the tool will make use so different from the second city so then how can you aggregate it so the effort of the project is quite a bit to say that can we do it in a standard way even if that might be slightly less suitable to the individual city so maybe we do twice one that's Moshi and how Moshi wants to do it and one that would be to the standardized of the 50 there are quite some expectations and that's why I was so as well happy about the morning there's more flexibility to learn while going to get the right answers because that's the question we have we have purposefully not included that in the project because that's sort of overwhelming it's clear that what we want to do wants to be at service for that but if we would include that into our tiny little project it's a follow up to that more of a kind of a you could actually better answer the question perhaps it's a pretty unanswerable kind of question at the moment but just to say that those of you who have been following the SCG process we have the outcome document now which is great we've got a water goal so that's a huge step forward we have these targets now 6.2 and 6.3 which cover the sanitation chain wastewater and sanitation which nicely brings together from basic sanitation through to reuse and the indicator framework the proposed indicators I think will really allow us to use this framework and that's certainly what we've proposed the question that keeps me up at night now is how the hell we do it because I mean this is super useful at the city level but for the global assessment we have to have it has to be statistically based and I think we have to kind of go from what's been done at the city level which is great but a lot of it's secondary data and key informant interviews which is perfect at the city level but it's going to be harder to use that for national level assessments and global level statistics to say well this was based on a key informant interview so we have to kind of build in that statistical component and that's where we're headed now and if I was to kind of imagine in five years time I would love to see the same kind of SFD base kind of template with all the boxes the same with slightly different ways of estimating the flows in those boxes for cities which is more action oriented at the city level and for national and global level kind of comparisons and statistics based so yeah that's I think we're all headed in the right direction is the short answer but a lot of work to go there's a shelf out here very briefly it's a thank you to GIZ for taking up the charge I guess in terms of representing sanitation as a sanitation chain and putting that out there so broadly it's time and I really appreciate that that's what you're doing the other thing that I appreciate is that first and foremost you put in the center place is what is going to be most useful for the cities to progress towards their end goal because ultimately that's like rolling out the statistics what we want to see is that on the ground people have better work sanitation thank you one more question or comment yeah I think it's an exciting project and I'm looking forward to all the data but leaving the flowers aside I've been yeah arguing in several occasions now that for the shit flow diagram it's a real shame that we have containment only and that we have not aligned with the airwark the airwark sanitation value chain that we made which has user interface and then containment because what we are seeing in a lot of the cities in Asia I know it's different in Africa is that people do have toilets but there's no containment that's actually and when you're making a shit flow diagram where the containment is red because people don't actually have a septic tank it goes directly to the drain etc then that bit is red but for the city who has just achieved so called full coverage that's really disappointing so I would like to see the user interface as a separate category in a shit flow diagram and then make that green and then say to people yeah but do you see that septic tanks that they have are no septic tanks or especially in the wet countries that is a big issue because it goes directly to the drain because it overflows etc etc thanks so much thank you alright I think it's time I leave it with a thank you because the question is what is the septic tank we come back to the question to the functional definitions and so on but these are the right discussion let's put it like this I think these are the right discussions that's what I would say alright thanks a lot for the four speakers a round of applause please for the discussions I'd like to close the session or two hi thanks very much so the next session is going to be on addressing long term sustainability and market development and apologies from Eric Yosefison I hope I said that correctly from people unfortunately he has taken ill so is unable to be here today to chair the session so I will do my very best right maybe just a quick word about how the session is going to work so all of you can know what to expect so there's four topics we're not going to group them so what I'm going to do is we're going to be very strict ten minutes presentation max if you want more question time then talk less and then five minutes question time after each presentation and then I'll take us up to the hour and then we will not endanger our coffee break so first up about post implementation monitoring Tilo will give us an idea okay thank you Trevor it's actually not me speaking now it's Stefan Siemann from Weltungerhöfe who couldn't be here and sends his regards so Weltungerhöfe is one of the largest German NGOs they come sort of from the food security direction hence it's sort of a little bit displaced I'll be speaking a lot about water not about sanitation but about supplies to sanitation as well you'll see so Stefan Siemann who heads the knowledge exchange quality management unit within Weltungerhöfe was quite shocked by a study he read by the rural water supply network which basically showed that in many places half or less than half of water supply systems are functioning and he sort of said well let's look at our projects and he began to look closer at their projects and how are these functioning and working and they did a study in Kenya and one in Myanmar with 141 points and basically found out that his fear was true it was basically the same type of failure rate or more than 50% of the things not fully functioning so he's got a bunch of graphs and I'll just sort of point out that sort of down here you see that only 13% are fully functional after 5 years where I said this all relates to sanitation they've done something similar since in Ethiopia looking at it I don't have those slides because that's sort of newer but it was worse so basically a point just being how do you get sustainability going here and the underlying reasons they sort of identified were that in many cases there's just no post construction support meaning that when the project ends, when the financing ends people are sort of left to themselves and there's nothing really to follow up another interesting thing that they found was that in many cases that the water committees for example giving the ownership to the people wasn't truly working so in terms of sort of their business as usual what they were doing it wasn't like they were only building hardware they were very much putting a lot of resources and energy into organization and training of these water use committees who were supposed to then manage their water supply assets so they were working on the hardware and on the software and what Stefan is basically saying now what they're seeing what is more necessary is to actually within implementation of the project to really set up external support to both the hard and the soft infrastructure so really shifting to try to have services that last because they've just realized that there's a limited ability to maintain with these committees so in identifying critical factors they found on one hand cost recovery and secondly that they need to really how to post construction post project follow up on the project and so we have began to sort of think well what is it what does it really need we need evidence to see what works and what doesn't we need to support local service providers a lot of times getting also private sector involved to share data with other stakeholders in the country for their monitoring systems and at the end he was basically saying is this our role as an NGO are we able to do this being project financed we don't really know what we need to measure we don't need really know how long do we need to monitor and then interestingly enough questions even came up and if we find out we failed what do we do where do we take those resources how do we repair what it's like a bottomless pit so basically he was saying how do you finance these post implementation activities so instead of sort of burying his head in the sand he initiated we're going to have initiated a workshop and the reason I was asked to present this because I was the one facilitating that workshop in Addis and you see the logos of at the bottom of sort of organizations that were that were involved and the questions were basically how do we integrate our roles and responsibilities for this long-term monitoring how do you hand projects over how do you really and the interesting thing was that our it was so difficult to keep people on track because we just came back to the to the typical sustainability issues that everyone knows from their projects but that wasn't what we were trying to discuss we're trying to discuss how we set up these structures for for for looking beyond when the project ends not only within the project and how we can trigger broader discussion we realized we need to have the different actors discussing to each other and this is a larger issue we need to take it outside of our meeting room and so one thing that we've done as German toilet organization together with the German wash network is that we took the the notes from this meeting and the results and we put them into sort of an e-paper which now we've sort of handed over to Susanna and Susanna is assisting with with the translation to different languages so we'll get these results spread as extensively as possible and the next steps that Stefan is basically proposing in collaboration with Susanna is that on the one hand we want to do a thematic discussion series and I think Wehrthof has even said to finance I guess that what it takes to do that then there is the option I guess of saying if this is interesting to us currently we don't have a working group that says monitoring somewhere which I think is worth a thought so perhaps it could take a working group on this Wehrthof is actually employing someone who will spend 50% of his working capacity on this sort of issue within the next time and they're doing several pilots and they're very happy to Viva Kwanakwa a sort of very innovative German fundraising that will go for Wash that will be supporting this project because it is very out of the box and you don't really know what return you'll get on it and there is supposed to be I guess we aren't a working group yet but just to let all of you know who are interested in this issue that on Wednesday 26th at 11.30 there will be people getting together who want to discuss this further and I I'll step outside of my role as being Stefan and applaud him for not only identifying an issue but then really getting mobilizing his organization to deal with this because basically when you step out like that as an organization that's normally fundraising saying we do great projects and you basically deal that openly with we have a huge problem and I think that's something to really be applauded so looking forward to people's thoughts on this and if people have other things to add thank you I'll Tilo stay at the mic just to answer some questions so we'll take five minutes of questions can you put me on five minutes okay so okay thank you just a suggestion to when you move this discussion forward in Tamil Nadu in India and I forgot the name that's H but there was the Tamil Nadu Water and Drainage Board they really looked at why there was so much focus on new construction and instead of repair and rehabilitation and there is a Tamil Nadu and I was trying to get it on the web but they have made a pledge because there needs to be a big shift within the within the organization, the institution itself and you need to get the engineers and the people on board because they come in as constructors and instead of constructors they now have to go and shift to a diagnosis and to listen and to learn and blah blah blah so it's very maybe interesting to look at that experience and to look at the pledge, how they got the institution and the staff of the drainage board towards accepting that and also see what has happened after that if they sustained it okay I'll get back to you on that thank you Lizette perfect so Jean, thank you for the one who were in the WEDEC last month in Los Boros University there was a session about sustainability with a PhD run in Malawi exploring the failures of sustainability and it was a robust I mean with a robust sampling and it comes to a total opposite conclusions that these conclusions for example they show that the most important thing was not the water point committee but was the quality of the water point a water point committee was reinforcing inequalities it was not trusted by the people and it was basically creating an artificial governance system in a system where the governance is already very very low so I think that it shows that it's extremely contextual it shows that if we want to discuss that we really need to have robust sampling and I don't think it was so robust 41 but if not it's very difficult to compare and I think you're right I think it could be really interesting to have a sort of thinking on sustainability comparing the context why the subject yes last track of hands Steph and then you speaking next so one second thank you also for presenting these very honest but very obviously I just wanted to find out from the paper that you have written have you seen a difference between the post implementation monitoring that is needed for water supply and sanitation and where are your thoughts going what are the similarities and what are the differences between the two alright do you have any responses otherwise we have two minutes so I can take one more question or responses I'll just respond to that last one because I think the differences between water and sanitation are important because with water a lot of times things are easier to monitor than with sanitation there was sort of we had certain monitoring experts also in the room who were trying to explain different tools that could be used and one for example was sort of you had like a sensor in the water pump that basically shows is the pumping water or not and if it's not pumping it sends sort of just by a quite cheap chip like a signal which can be sent to someone from the private sector that knows there's a pump for me to repair because it was shown that after sort of three days of not the pump being used people revert back to sort of their own the old water source that I think type of comparison for sanitation or particularly for hygiene behavior becomes very very difficult in sort of installing somehow a sort of system that long term will then will sort of lead to people jumping in at the right time to take it to that next level there was one thing that didn't come out properly here was I think was also the close linking because we were talking about sort of that it might be surpassing government systems or there was some comment made there it was interesting when we began the workshop we did have a lot of government officials in the room as well from some different countries and at the beginning we sort of did a line up to look who's working in PIM so far and who isn't and many people were sort of standing at well when our project ends it's over at sort of one end of the room of we don't really do this the ones who are standing at 100% that's what we do because they saw it then as their duty but it became really clear that this integrating of how do you really hand over how do you really exit a project how is the responsibility actually handed over to the government at that point became really really important if there are 30 seconds the only person I'd ask to add something would be Ryan because you were part of the workshop if I don't know if you felt there was part that perhaps was missing or misrepresented or something so I wanted to add concerning the questions 20-25 one thing which I took away but also maybe it's because something I strongly supported was the idea that PIM is really an implementing organization perspective because it's about implementation so it begins and ends and so one thing was that the government I think said was there the monitors but the idea that anything that's designed to be PIM whether it's water sanitation or hygiene needs to be supporting the national systems correct all right thank you very much I am going to ask the next speaker and Susan also had a question so if she wants to use some of her presentation time to ask Tilo and at Bridges then she's very welcome to ask Susan Davis or Davis to speak about the failing forward and future proofing sanitation failures and what we can learn from them and you have 10 minutes very much thank you good afternoon I'm Susan Davis with improve international and I like to use toilets almost every day probably more than once a day I used one here it's very nice there's soap there's hot water there's towels and as I think everybody in this room already knows that is not the case for millions of people and it's not just that they don't have access to a toilet some people have access to a really filthy toilet some people use their toilet until it fills up and then they go back to open defecation some people use their toilet but don't have a place to wash their hands so they're actually getting more contamination so I just want to start with a quick question so from the presentation you just saw before this one what did anything surprise you was anybody shocked to hear that post construction support is needed or that water committees need to be strengthened and the lack of spare parts all this stuff is any of this a surprise no it's not and so that's why I called this failing forward let's fail differently let's stop making the same failures over and over again I've been in the past four years since I found it improve a bit of a failureologist and I collect these little nuggets of failure and the point isn't to be depressing but which it is but to really start showing that we're failing in a lot of different places so let's stop doing that and start failing differently fail forward and so this idea of future proofing is a cool way to say building in sustainability and I'm sorry it shouldn't be toilets it should be sanitation that's the word I use for non-wash people so all of the stuff is snapshots it's not a rigorous academic study but it's things that I've been collecting over the years and you know a lot of times when we talk about failure especially with water points but sometimes with toilets we talk about functionality right the lack of functionality and that's where you start seeing a lot of stats but there's all kinds of different failures I mean the big one the big message point for this year is the MDGs right we didn't reach them for sanitation and in fact we probably had some slippage if you count in the fact that some people stopped using toilets or weren't using the toilets that they supposedly had access to there's failures with understanding customers and what they want understanding the market there's failures in implementation, design and quality poor construction pits that collapse inappropriate technology stuff that's requiring a lot of water and water scarce areas for example failures in monitoring and follow up as we just saw failures in sustained hygienic use of the toilet even if it exists failures in sustaining open defecation failures failures in fecal sludge management so we all know this stuff I know I'm preaching to the choir but I think the point is let's learn from these and let's share the word and let's talk about failure more because then we can learn from that and we can all say like I did as I was watching your presentation oh my god I just did the same work and I need to get it translated into German so you guys can look at it we looked at a lot of different failures so just some examples of implementation failure there was a study in itchewar block and the official data showed that there was 38% coverage but only 19% of the toilets were functional and most of that they found was due to poor construction or incomplete construction the supplies were never delivered there's functionality and maintenance issues in Peru and the Laredo region an estimated 85% of the toilets were unusable in Madagascar a wash sustainability check showed that 46% of the households did not have functional toilets UNICEF did a study of schools all over Asia and they found pretty high numbers in Afghanistan 45% of toilets in public schools across the country needed extensive repair or replacement similar numbers in Pakistan extensive repair replacement Maldives 27% Bhutan 30 to 40% of toilets needed extensive repair or replacement sorry this is really depressing but there's a light at the end of the tunnel failures in coverage let's see showing up but we know that we missed the MDG target by about 700 million people and that wasn't even a goal for universal access the percentage people with access to a toilet shared by only one family between 1990 and 2012 declined in Nigeria from 37 to 28% so 16 million more Nigerians defecate outside today than 1990 Nigeria has the highest percentage of unserved population in Africa but they only receive 6.1% of the aid compared this to Kenya which has 4.2% of the need and receives 9.4% of the aid so there's failures in equity and failures in how we target our aid dollars and in many parts of the developing world up to 4 out of 10 schools and health care facilities lack basic water and sanitation water sanitation and hygiene facilities there's a recent study that came out there and I can't get this to go there we go so failure to understand customers somebody mentioned earlier health is often not the motivator that's why we're doing this a lot of times it's all motivated by health but that's not why people want a toilet or want to use a toilet there was a great squat survey it was aptly named in northern India and people actually preferred to go outside they like to take a nice walk in the morning over 40% of households with a working latrine have at least one member who defecates outside still people who own a government constructed latrine defecate in the open anyway so we don't quite understand what people want in Cambodia in areas where CLTS was used only about 15% of the households with a latrine used it regularly in Ghana 60% of new latrines only 60% are being used in rural areas and even if we do think health is the issue this is a really interesting Emory study in schools in Kenya where they actually the kids had increased hand contamination after toilets were installed even with hygiene promotion and they suggested that that might be because they weren't actually they were using the toilets but they weren't actually practicing hand washing and anal cleansing materials aren't frequently available in Kenya's schools and they weren't provided as part of the project and they said whoa this is really scary and we all know shit flow diagrams we but I would like to kind of think of this as we failed to understand the value of shit there are some people who are doing really interesting stuff with waste of fertilizer and waste to energy but not really at scale so what have we learned I think we have learned some things obviously there's a sustainable sanitation alliance it's really important but it has to be beyond the access and more towards the services and to get to that to get to universal access and universal services we need political will, leadership funding, coordination affordable and appropriate technology sustained local capacity so not swooping in and doing a project and this big thing is this cultural shift now if we knew how to do all this stuff we wouldn't need these forums we could all go sit out in the sun but I would just encourage us all to continue to learn this is a great time to start thinking differently and start working differently and stop doing business as usual because we have the new sustainable development goals and it's time to put these learnings into practice and future proof sanitation gains that we've achieved thank you and I have a lot more really ugly stats on our website improveinternational.org and we just with help from Elizabeth set up some failure stats on the Wikipedia wash page as well if you have any to contribute in the interest of learning thank you thank you very much are there any questions for Susan we have three or four minutes for questions thank you very much for I think it's a new science field or something you said for me really it's interesting to hear all of the examples you gave and sometimes in my mind maybe because I'm still very wired and supported by the society which I exist to think more on success but I'm wondering sometimes at what point do we really declare or see something as a failure because if you think of interventions and all of these in a spectrum or in a continuum of some sort these programs are at certain levels on that continuum so at what point is it exactly a failed project because that's one thing but then the flip side of it it will be more interesting for me if and that is where I think learning would really be happening if the examples of failures we have we're also documenting examples of successes so things have been done to address the specific failure so that way it really closes the loop and I don't know what can you do with that probably have to check out the website but just my daughter I'll go back to the microphone because yes that was a perfect question actually to ask I love that I know people say that a lot well you're telling us what doesn't work what can you tell us what does work we just started some research with Catholic Relief Services CRS on sanitation successes over the long term so we're doing it's still kind of high level we're doing a desk review and interviewing different people but we are trying to document and find where there is documentation on successes and it doesn't matter what approach we're just kind of looking at a bunch of that so we should have that desk review oh god it's due at the end of this month next month but so we are looking at that and we're ideally if we find some good examples we'll go do more detailed case studies what's worked over the long term and why and what are the what's the sort of performance envelope to steal Darren Saywell's term what are the factors that contributed to that and you know was it money was it cultural was it water scarcity or water availability that sort of thing and then the other piece that you mentioned which is what do you do when you find these failures who is doing these sorts of things that is another project that we're working on we're calling it you're calling it PIM we're calling it resolution so it's identifying problems first of all by monitoring and going back and then what what is the responsibility of the various stakeholders you know is it should the NGO do something should the community do something should the local government do something and we we tried to come up with that for water problems so we do have a we'll pitch that report it's very probably very similar to the one you came up with but resolution of problems with sanitation seems to be a different animal and to go back to your very first question is like I said these are all snapshots you know we don't really have good except for the JMP numbers we don't really have good numbers over time for the same place right you know this toilet you know the pit filled up or in this community the pits filled up and then they replace them we don't have good long-term data like that as far as I've seen if somebody has it that would be great to share so it's declared a failure kind of like with water the day we showed up the water wasn't flowing it's the day we showed up the pit was full or the latrine appeared not to be used or it was collapsed I think some of these are obvious failures some of them are they have potential to be fixed but we often don't get to that level of detail of hey it looks like your pits full what are you going to do about it and then follow up and say did they do something about it so you're right and that's the challenge is we need more data or we need more information we really need to kind of understand why right there's a last question here from Anna maybe it's not exactly a question it's a thank you because I might be surprised about the results but about the seriousness which with both presentations try to follow them up and there's sort of a comment or thought the two cases and maybe you don't need more data if you need other examples it's Dick van Rijnhofer it's definitely the Dutch who said that they'll do the post implementation monitoring and only the money flows if it's still there after 10 years as a result those taking the money were saying well we have to make different projects now so there are examples where the way you give the money has effects so it would be maybe interesting to look at them and I don't know if I have a romantic perception of the Nepal SNV thing what come to my mind and Antoinette might comment on that is there's a simple form of a biogas it's businesses who select the farmers who take them and they get some money for doing it but there's a share of money which only comes after 3 years so there's built in a system that on a micro level you think long term and I would like to see more examples of this long term thinking in the planning and maybe that would be interesting if I could just quickly say thank you so much for saying that I think we've started with we identify failures more at the technology level this is what happened with this pump or this toilet and then we've kind of expanded to this is what the community did wrong and then we've kind of gone to well this is what the implementer did wrong but we haven't quite gotten to this is what the donors are doing wrong because we don't want to offend anybody but really if the donor says the measurement of success is you build these number of toilets in 2 years or 1 year and that is the only measurement of success and it's not about building local capacity and it's not about working with local governments and it has nothing to do with the time dimension then yes I think the donors are part of the problem so thank you for bringing that up thank you very much Susan next applause I'm trying to keep it on time so we can all the questions that were not asked we can ask in the coffee break next up is she's here and she'll be chatting about activating the supply chain for rural sanitation in Bihar, India so Genevieve you have 10 minutes, welcome thank you thank you Trevor, I'm going to do my very best to make this brief but if I go through anything too quickly or I skip over a point that you'd like me to clarify please feel free to just raise your hand I don't mind I'll make sure we get everything explained so the topic now is actually just an example of how PSI is attempting to make our project sustainable and to take all of these lessons from the room forward and hopefully we won't fail but we'll actually have a success story to add to Susan's list so the project is called 3SI supporting sustainable sanitation improvements and it's in the state of Bihar in India it's funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and we are partners with Path, Water for People and Monitor Deloitte and it's a five year project and it started in August 2012 ok so for those of you who aren't familiar Bihar is the second poorest state in India it's a bit of a country on its own it has a population of about 105 million and that statistic is about 4 years old it has 88% open defecation and it's one of the states that was surveyed in the squat report in which open defecation is certainly the social norm and often preferred hence the huge challenge additionally something that we found while preparing to work in Bihar as well as throughout the process is it's notoriously corrupt there's a strong perception that the government is skimming off the top that's both demonstrated and perceived and what we found was that this was one of the large reasons why despite fairly good coverage of microfinance in India in Bihar itself it was about 3% of the population had ever accessed a formal loan so just for a quick overview of the project the way it started out as Gates asked us to do it was to create and test sustainable business models to increase demand for improved sanitation and to increase access to finance and so what we did for the first years of the project was to really focus on that first component which is to design and test these business models so it was very very supply side focused and then we incorporated in the demand creation through a direct sales model and now we are very focused on increasing access to finance because once we have the product we drove down the cost of the product we found that in order to have a product that was both sustainable long lasting and desirable to the consumer there was still sort of a price point that's more than most households could afford in cash hence the need for access to financing so the project by the numbers is actually one thing I just want to clarify is that this increasing access to finance essentially the idea was that we are going to start selling toilet loans not just toilets and that's why our target is now two Gates we adjusted this target to say that we would sell 100,000 toilet loans and then another 50,000 in cash directly between the household and the enterprise we aimed to activate 214 enterprises so that means both taking existing and potential operators and training them in how to produce the toilet that path and water for people helped us to design we have about 2 million US dollars allocated towards the financing component of this project and I'll explain that in a second we have three large MFI's and one small one with whom we have signed agreements to move this forward we have 14,800 toilets to date which is not much compared to our target of 150,000 in the next two years however the vast majority of these actually 14,000 of those are cash and despite the fact that we found that financing was the huge constraint we're seeing that we're kind of getting some of those higher income households that have made the cash purchases and once we get financing fully activated we're hoping we'll see a sudden uptake in loans and we have 175 enterprises activated so far just which is to emphasize that we really focused on the supply side for the start of the project to get things in place okay so the gist of this is that we have this 2 million dollar pot of money it's partly from within the budget from Gates as well as a contribution by the Unilever Foundation through their domex toilet academy and so take a pot of money give it to a fund manager based in India fund manager then disperses it to local micro finance institutions who then disperse it either as consumer loans to the household for the purchase of a toilet sorry I keep doing this or to the enterprise for working capital and so it probably sounds like the least sustainable thing in the world to just dump a bunch of money however the idea is that the the idea is that because we found due to this corruption and the fact that purchasing a toilet is a non-income generating loan a lot of these micro finance organizations were really reluctant to invest in Bihar and so the theory is that by giving this initial capital into the system we can demonstrate that there is demand for toilet loans as well as kind of absorb some of the risk for the micro finance institutions and then I have these highlighted little blue mini MFI's which are the NGO arms of each of the MFI's which are actually able to receive grants from this fund so not just a loan but an actual grant and that's for demand creation. So this is essentially what the strategy looks like so 3SI over here that's 3SI slash PSI who we are giving a grant to this fund manager which is friends of women's world banking in India who then are on lending the money to MFI's who then on lend the money to consumers and toilet operators and then in turn goes through the supply chain for the construction of toilets in addition to the loan to the MFI for the capital there is also a grant to the NGO arm of the MFI which is very common in India I'm not sure about elsewhere but I know in this case it's often just the NGO arm can actually receive a grant whereas the MFI itself cannot and then in the meanwhile PSI is busy doing communications and facilitation as well as demand creation in the background and strengthening establishing the supply chain but the idea is that a lot of this communications facilitation this green arrow will be taken over by the NGO arm of the MFI in the future have I lost anybody because I know I'm probably rushing through this okay alright so more numbers as I mentioned we have just over 800 consumer loans dispersed thus far and 39 enterprise loans and the idea is that the pot of money that we're giving to FWWB again that's the fund manager this friends of women's world banking they actually the signed agreement is that they will leverage this pot of money three to four times and that's by leveraging their ability to take loans from other commercial lenders then the MFI in turn in exchange for receiving this grant towards the NGO arm of the MFI they have a signed agreement with FWWB to also leverage the loan to borrow more money to also bring cash into the system specifically specifically for sanitation loans getting into the details FWWB operates at a margin of about 6% they lend to the MFI at about 6 to 8% so very little is going to MFI or FWWB for their operating costs and then MFI's are lending to the consumers and enterprises at 20 to 24% which is standard for the market so we're aiming not to distort it at that level so the cost of the toilet is about 240 US dollars or 16,000 rupees and then the loans are available for between 6 and 12,000 rupees to the consumer so up to 75% of the cost and there are two modes of receiving the loan both where the household essentially puts in a deposit to a and then upon constructing the toilet and getting confirmation receives the loan directly from the MFI and then there's another one in which the portion of the loan goes to a a cement ring manufacturer provides a pan and some rings in the ground actually in kind to the household and then the household and we found this is building off of what was the existing practice is that households um I guess I better get going but the point being is that we gave households the opportunity to contribute in kind towards the loan and we actually like monetize for bricks and pans and different things based on what was available and interestingly we have about a 40% rejection rate which isn't terribly surprising but PSI is working to to reduce that sorry that's for the loan application enterprises again those can be up to 50,000 rupees um and those are at a rate of 20% payable back in six months and 39 dispersed okay so the whole point of the presentation so actually what was really interesting in this project was that again our hypothesis was that by injecting this capital into the system we'd kind of lubricate financing we'd absorb some of the risk and there would be money dedicated to sanitation loans and then that would you know spark demand and everything would be up and running interestingly what we found was that a lot of MFI said we actually have the capital we need to lend it's just that we're not necessarily interested in doing all of the demand creation required for increasing awareness of the loan um as well as the fact that this loan um is non-income generating and so uh the cost associated with that as far as um the risk um so as a result we've only actually dispersed about 60,000 US dollars of our 2 million dollar pot um because we actually need to find MFI's who are willing to take the capital um but what we're looking at is trying different approaches to see where and when um finance is needed to sort of helps kick start the process um for implications of repayment um lesson learned is the need to lower the delivery time um just especially with how the idea is that a loan um you start repaying after a month usually so that means we need our toilet built within a month and that's a huge challenge for the supply chain at times um because we're allowing households to contribute in kind towards their loan often it means that there's less standardization of the product and so the set for the US dollars isn't always what it is and there's opportunity to add tiles or a more artist in a wooden door and that kind of thing and that's raised in the cost of the toilet and that's a challenge we're facing uh the definition of a constructed toilet some of our toilets are built close to water sources as a constraint of space can we can we count that toilet um some of them don't have doors or they just have a cloth in front of them um so they're still used but they're not fully constructed can we count that toilet so that's something we're working on and um one thing we're excited about is the opportunity to monitor this at scale which is leveraging existing microfinance organizations and the loan officers and their touch point with households um which is creating a feedback loop for us so we'll PSI will learn really quickly if a loan's if a toilet isn't getting constructed because a loan isn't getting constructed in time and then the MFI's are going to come to us um but one thing we did find is that we have very high rates of customer satisfaction as a result of these frequent touch points um and of consumers being able to ask um questions as needed from from their loan officer and that's it very good we we have one minute for a question because you went a little bit over your time that was intentional so one question I see there's three hands four half questions no um we'll go over here because Belinda hasn't asked a question yet um and the other questions I'd ask the folks to to ask Genevieve in the coffee break which will be in a couple minutes because you're funded by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation do you know the work that was done with vision fund path WSP in Cambodia and because I was one of the review and it's very similar results so following on Susan's presentation how are you able to take some of that learning into what you're doing now because yours seems to be still ongoing yeah so that's a great point um my understanding is that there was not a huge capital infusion into that if if if I'm correct there so I think that's what's a little bit different um from this model but absolutely we're leveraging those lessons earned both with um having direct sales of toilets and trying to turn loan offers into sales agents um basically they were saying they're operating costs to manage the small loans at the end of the day Belinda we need to have our mic I think one of the key findings besides something you mentioned is the microfinance for them to get really involved and this is really a key crux to your to your work is that the operation cost for them to manage these infusions these changes is so much more than the loan itself and how do you connect that to other home improvement loans and other things so I really think moving forward um it would be really good to again learn on those lessons because it is quite an in-depth work with Vision Fund yeah and absolutely and one thing that's a little bit different from our project versus those in Cambodia with Vision Fund is the cost of the product itself and so the loan is actually significantly larger um I know that um having worked in Cambodia the toilet was around 35 to 50 US dollars mostly for the underground components right right yeah no it's next some point yeah just to build to that I think one of the big lessons also we need to incorporate is to whether we go to individual financing and microfinancing or whether we have the community as a collective there's very interesting research that's coming out from Bangladesh now Bangladesh might be a little bit more homogeneous um communities um there's a lot happening also there at policy level so look at the context before you translate uh findings from one country but the key was there that it's cuts alone didn't work finance didn't alone marketing didn't work alone but cuts with community collective financing did work so cash transfers to the communities that might also reduce the cost for the the micro agencies to finance and it did result in the poorest um reached also there's very interesting briefing from Bangladesh but it needs to be looked at the collective financing or individual financing yeah and I would love to talk with you about it further afterwards because in the interest of time I can expand on all the details but there is actually a collective household component in one of the financing schemes within this um trying to build in some of that all right thank you very much Genevieve um so next up we have uh Antoinette Korma from SNV and she'll be talking about urban sanitation uh finance from macro to micro level and this is basically a bit of feedback to to the community on our thematic discussion that we just had last couple of weeks which Antoinette was involved in as one of the experts so Antoinette over to you thank you so I arrived this morning from Jakarta and it's about 9 p.m. for me now and I'm an irrigation engineer trying to say something about finance and Guy Hutton is standing in the middle of the room it's a really scary situation I should skip that so let me try um to say something about that discussion um in an old fashioned paper based way first of all who was in that discussion anybody who participated vaguely who wrote themselves so majority lurkers right in any email discussion that you're doing it appears that you have about 10% of the people who write and the rest are lurkers and within that 10% there's 2% who always write those are the ones that you think oh it's the same point over and over again so this was a Susanna discussion on finance and it was really interesting it started with Katharina from SEKA from IRC and Guy Nerman from WSEP talking about domestic finance Katharina about domestic finance at national level and why this is so important to take that into consideration why do you think she made the point of domestic finance for sanitation who because donors don't want to pay for it team B why the case for why domestic finance for sanitation oh wait we have a semantic discussion this was at the national level national level domestic finance so let's say tax why national level tax for sanitation because it's a public good right because water and sanitation is a human right and governments are duty bearers and that justifies that investment yes we're all here but then there's a big problem because it's a nice thought but usually tax is very low and there's so much corruption so there's nothing happening up so what would still be the positive of pushing for this if it's such a tough job pushing for domestic finance team A yes sir it's potentially sustainable and we want sustainable it's an aspirational concept good one that was actually coming up in a discussion it could be showing credibility to donors and thereby leverage more money team B stay behind if you spend domestic for okay so if you would spend your own money on it then you would be more interested on ring fencing it and making it sure it goes there alright one of the things that was said is it will build the social contract between governments and citizens and it will bridge the timing gap and the revenue gap being this one okay the timing gap being that if you think about sanitation systems or you talk with local governments about sanitation systems then very often they say that's all very important at urban sanitation but we don't have the initial infrastructure investment which is very big let's not be so US centred it's let's express it all in sec for the sake of being here and then of course the other money that needs to be spent so that is your initial investment and the other money that needs to be spent is on regular operations and sometimes a little bit of regular maintenance and maybe some big repairs right the problem is local governments say we don't have this money because we're only getting money once we have the system in place and then we can start asking for a tariff so if we use domestic finance we can start making this first investment that's what we think but local governments generally don't think that because when we talk when we did this discussion about finance for sanitation on our D group that has a lot of our local partners the local government mostly would say yeah you know that risk for me is too big I don't actually think that anybody is ever going to make pay tariffs there's not a high demand here I'm not going to put so much money here but if there's a grant from Gates Foundation then we'll do it so yes and that revenue gap maybe that in the beginning there's not enough tariff to actually cover this so that's again where you could put your domestic finance in then we had another guru of so this was the first topic of this sanitation discussion on domestic finance with Guy and with Katharina there we had the second topic which was with Sophie Tremollet on microfinance loans and she was basically saying we need to expand our understanding of microfinance we need to think not only about small loans from MFIs we also need to think about savings, insurance, remittance we need to think about cooperatives, reforming funds, self-help groups, crowdfunding and all this could be blended to finance sanitation now I want to come back to this because I think this is really important in the discussion about urban sanitation financing because in my view we have on the one hand we have the talks the discussion for example is this the clock I can't okay alright when you talk to the development banks ADB and so on they talk at city level and they talk about the city wastewater investment mainly the wastewater treatment plant, the big works and so on and they think about one big investment going to one stakeholder huge and then when you talk to small NGOs, local NGOs they talk about small loans to households to build their toilets to set up a community facility to start doing a service in a certain area etc but if we would go to citywide sustainable sanitation coverage we would probably want to integrate those in a very systematic way like only Germans can do you know like we see it as a whole system there are small business models and big business models with big businesses other type business models with different finance needs that would need to be integrated so this is a bit the discussion about city level sustainable cost recovery now let me flip through my slides no so this idea of city level sustainable cost recovery would be in the ideal world the entire sanitation value chain I should have asked you about this the entire sanitation value chain the entire geographic area of the city the entire life cycle of those different services though understanding there may be several services within a city with different life cycles and of course for all social groups maybe also those that don't have formal citizenship and so on this I already showed you when you're talking when you're thinking about any of those systems you're dealing with this problem that to start sanitation services in a city it's a lumpy investment you need a lumpy investment even if you're doing vehicle sludge management you need trucks you need a wastewater treatment a sludge treatment etc only in small areas you can say okay let's do this through trenching so great examples of trenching in Malaysia in palm oil plantations so we learned from Sophie's work that actually there can be different types of money, different types of revenues to cover it and as I said your tariffs in the beginning will be very very small and may become bigger later your taxes may remain stable though perhaps maybe not at this level maybe your taxes are actually more important but you're looking for something to pay your upfront investment and what some of our colleagues also said is yes but the idea of reuse in sanitation that could be the potential funding stream on the basis of which maybe even loans could be given because that revenue from trade is now low and it could become high now I wish this was like that I'm not convinced yet I come from an agriculture university I have a lot of affinity with ecological thinking but I haven't seen yet trade having this type of revenue but in the ideal world this would become one of the ways of funding sanitation right and the question is where does that up from money come from so the thinking in our part of the discussion was can we blend finance and not just at the bigger city level so this is an example of blending finance at the city level that I think I should not start to explain but you can read it in the paper but what I want you to take away from this type of graphs for now is that there are many different sources of finance and many different stakeholders who are investing in sanitation and you really need to tailor make that but if you think of an overall service model of a city that includes solutions from different parts then this part on treatment would maybe be managed by one does this table make sense so we have the value chain here and different parts of the city simplified here right city center areas with low income areas that have decentralized sewer in Indonesia we have some cities that already have like 40 day watts inside their city area the market some health hospital etc. they all have they are all slightly different customers slightly different areas and they will not all get the same type of service but we could think that there are different businesses or different service providers having different needs for finance and start making the puzzle bottom up so my final reflections are that in this discussion with the final reflections that Ankatrin made was that it has a lot to do with all the usual suspects but there are some other usual suspects that I didn't mention which are in sanitation the not so usual suspect is the chicken egg problem if I don't have the finance I'm not starting to thinking about developing the service and I don't really think if I have a service that I can ask for payment for the service or text so I'm not thinking about it and I'm not sure that I can get the finance so I will not even think about this unless somebody takes away that risk from me and then the issue that it only can be tailored made because these cities are so diverse and it really takes a lot of knowledge to do that and the problem that also applies to myself and to a lot of our sanitation at all levels and then to tailor make is really hard some basic literacy we need to have some basic I'm so sad to say thank you very much as you can see there's a a lot of power, a lot to be discussed in this topic and it's great that this discussion was over three weeks and it's pretty hard to summarize three weeks in 12 minutes I think I'd like to break here and send everyone off a coffee break a well-deserved coffee break energy's been great in the room the questions have been great so thank you to Pruitt who chaired the previous session let's have a 15 minute coffee break and that means we'll come back at at 22 so we have a full 15 minutes where discussions can continue and then we'll start the next session at 22 can I ask everyone to have their seats please good afternoon everyone those in the hallway if you want to come on in we'll begin for the final topic of today other than the wrap up turn to the person beside you and share and you've got about two minutes between both of you share with the person beside you what this means to you and your role your role your role, your organization what's the importance of this if you haven't switched people switch wrap up your final thought wrap up your final thought wrap up I gave you three not two minutes so you had extra time close up close up your thought I was asked to my name's Shawna Curry I'm CEO of cost center for affordable water and sanitation technology and the way I was asked to open by sharing a little bit about who cost is and the title of the session is actually sums up very well the core of who cost is but one of the biggest questions that we're constantly asking ourselves and what's important for this this conversation is for whom for what purpose that's first and foremost and then the tools and approaches need to be designed and tested around that and one of the critical pieces of that is that these have fairly quick turnaround time in terms of testing them out does it work is it achieving my goal and then moving from there often what happens is that the tool is picked first prior to defining who it is and for what purpose I'd like to introduce this water drop a handful of you may have seen it before as a representation of knowledge and where that knowledge lies if you imagine at the top of the water drop is where the majority of the knowledge resides in the fewest number of people and in this room we have people probably mainly across this part of the water drop I'm an engineer well educated good experience I reside sort of in the middle middle here I interface quite a bit with wash researchers greatest opportunity to effect change resides at the base of the water drop where the majority of people reside with the knowledge about their own local context but not necessarily the knowledge that resides up in the academic institutions and in the heads of this room and we hear about this capacity gap and the need for knowledge translation across it and this is how I'll sort of frame or put today's session in place it's also how I'll describe back to the question that Suzanne asked me to introduce cost is that in the brief introduction on cost is this is where cost has fit the last 14 years we've been solely focused on what does it take to close this gap so our services our education and training services are focused at the practitioner level so that it can mobilize and drive that bottom up action and that knowledge translation is and transfer needs to be both ways and likely preaching to the converted but the question is then how and that's what we're exploring in this session today and one of the things that I've really appreciated about Suzanne over the course of the years is that there too or Suzanne as a network is focused on how do you share and exchange that information in a real practical way that results in people having better water and sanitation or better sanitation I should say and that the very I would say very agile and adaptive approach that GIZ has taken to setting up Susanna is is part of the reason it has been so successful is that it's been real time does this work no it doesn't let's try this that works and then trying that out and then what works and what grabs a hold of the membership that's where they move where the network moves towards so with that I'll introduce our first speaker who's going to give a very concrete example Dorothy how do I pronounce your last name? whatever Dorothy works with a Swiss space company called Sikon and she's going to speak very specifically about a concrete example of to the whom is entrepreneurs and the how Sikon is working with those entrepreneurs to build their skills and knowledge to be able to implement sanitation programs let me take that do I have this thing there yes for those who don't know me my name is Dorothy Spuller and I'm working for Sikon and I'm going to present today the smart startup program that's showing how Sikon has a capacity of entrepreneurs specifically so Sikon stands for Society, Economy, Ecology and Consultancy and we have three main objectives innovation, integration teaching, capacitating and changing and successful sustainable development so we have an interdisciplinary team which includes engineers, chairgaffers economists, training specialists and together we have developed different capacities for ourselves and competences in the field of water and sanitation and two of our core competences are business development and capacity development and there Shona talked about it we have developed a broad portfolio of capacity development activities some of them you know maybe it's the sustainable sanitation and water management toolbox and related training programs the water integrity management toolbox and water integrity management in the water sector and one other project is the international center for water management center services, CWAS CWAS is based in Willisau in the heart of Switzerland some of you know it it's an international organization and it's based on the consideration that water and sanitation challenges are business opportunities so it provides a platform for entrepreneurs in order to transfer their business idea into a successful startup so what does CWAS offer it offers entrepreneurs a space of innovative ideas a space for networking with international experts business training and coaching specifically where it is required exchange with other startups and like-minded people and an inspiring working space these are some pictures from the center in Switzerland where you can see the personal coaching support that people get and providing them the space to develop their business idea that program which is addressed to these kind of people contains five modules business development marketing, operation, finances funding and finally one-to-one coaching in order to make the idea happen so that's nice and we have managed to see now over 30 operational startups up there and they have a different focus ranging from product or technology to service provider and startups focusing more on the north market or on the south market so the problem in the beginning was that we thought that most of our startups were more focusing or sitting in this side of this slide which is normal because we're based in Switzerland this of course is idle situation in order to connect to know how from relevant institutions like ETHJ or whatever but it prevents many people from the thousand part of the world to participate in the program so what we did to improve this situation we started to develop regional platforms and regional programs so we now have actually a platform established in south Asia in the Middle East we are also working in several the leader in Sambia for instance and we have started to work in Latin America one experience or what allowed us is there a watch somewhere I don't see it five minutes what helped us to set up this platform was the SAVA Smart Startup Program what it is it's a kind of a light version of the full-fledged Swiss one year six module SAVA's program and it contains three phases which are carried out together in close collaboration with local partners and also allowing the local teams to be trained in order to be themselves trainer and coaches afterwards so it contains in a preparatory phase with SAVA's ateliers in order to spot potential entrepreneurs but also potential coaches these are then prepared for the future role training module where two intensive training sessions takes place and coaching in the middle and these sessions or these phases both the trainings and the coaching is organized jointly by the Swiss coaches and facilitators and the local coaches and facilitators providing the local team with the first hands-on training the second phase is then followed by a coaching this is mainly carried out by local coaches which get support open requests from the Swiss teams so far we have or that's some pictures from such training so the participants for instance goes to a session of a business idea fair they present their ideas, they scan their environments, profile customer segments or analyze their competitors and in an interactive set of different sessions they finally shape their business model in a business canvas and they also have repeatedly to present their business ideas and in the end they're able to do a good elevator pitch convincing somebody about what they're planned to do so far we had trainings in Zambia but also Vietnam, Peru Kampala we had some, can't remember India, different places in Zambia for instance we are already in the second year like this each year these are pictures from 2014 5 to 10 startups get trained these are some pictures from this year where the local startups at the end of the training program present their ideas to the local audience also in order to raise funding for implement their business ideas so what we learned is that actually not a way to carry out such CWAS programs in the region is to combine and integrate them into existing projects where the projects define the objectives the audience and the expected results and the SERAS training program is shaped in order to fit those this enhances not only the sustainability of the project because they gain business development component in order to activate the local market but also it enhances the sustainability of the SERAS activities so examples are for instance a recent workshop in India focusing specifically on the training of service providers for decentralized natural water and wastewater treatment systems and another project which allowed us to carry out several projects is the resource recovery and safe reuse project where different organizations some of you may know this project this project also allowed us to invest in the capitalization of the experience remade of the experiences we made and compile them actually in a resource recovery and reuse business development toolbox it is online resource that contains results from the analysis of over 50 business cases worldwide what works what doesn't work but it also contains material presentation and background readings from the training modules so it's the resource online for anyone who wants to read but mainly for the trainers that we are training throughout our activities and we really hope that becomes a central resource in order to have small service platforms everywhere around the world if you want to access it you can go to the famous asas.wm.info toolbox and you go to specific topics and I think that's so far all from my side stay up here you get to answer questions now the thing that I really like about this case is that it clearly demonstrates or shows the leverage of capacity development and the investment that's required for that capacity development to work so it's an ongoing continuous process and it's a suite of services that SICON provides in order for that knowledge and skills to be actually transferred so that it can take action in the act of the previous session where we were pointing out how we're seeking sustainability how this sort of investment can sort of lead to that sustainability so questions for Dorothy any no because our online folks want to hear what you have to ask when you talk about what works and what doesn't work how do you define that for an entrepreneur for the business cases that I haven't been involved in the analysis it was a multi criteria analysis that was based on the detail studied of different cases I can't recall the indicators like that but it depends also on the timeline you look at but I can get this information and put you in contact with the people later on I think it would be interesting how could you get this down to country level because it strikes me that at a country level this is a fabulous resource actually the small start up program is designed to replicate our experience from Switzerland in country level how do we bring it down we do work with light versions in the beginning together with the local partners that of course we have to identify and while we starting working with them at the same time we training local trainers and coaches in order to become independently later on so we basically providing business development support to local Cversus I have two questions you are training people for a very difficult market the water and sanitation market is known revenues producing so I am wondering about the business model on that it's one question and the other is what is the real content of the business the content means repairments laying down pipes building trenches and so on it's artisan and not only business businesses may be organizing and manage that and how is the relation between this real artisan work and the business model the first question is about the revenues and the difficult market to develop the business model we use the business model canvas and one aspect of this canvas is about getting costs and revenues in the same level and it helps you in order to understand what kind of mixes of different costs you may need revenues may need to cover different costs and I don't think I can make a general statement it depends on the case and this can be very small scale or very large scale and if we link it up to the discussion which we just had before I mean at the city scale you also have to kind of balance all the different revenue sources with all the different cost sources for the second questions I mean the best several smart startup program is not going to make a sanitation or a wastewater treatment facility constructions out of a cook it is providing development support specifically it doesn't provide a technical capacity so it focuses on one aspect of capacities you need in order to become active but yeah thank you Dorothy once again um the yeah and back to that back to that water job diagram is CWAS has very very clearly defined the whom their target market is and it is entrepreneurs in that niche and so there's a much broader to your last question there's a much broader area of water and sanitation that has to be met in other means and capacity development in other means um one of the entrepreneurs but the next stage of our discussion this afternoon is what can we be doing from our individual organizations as contributors to Susanna and Susanna what ideas can we generate here in the room that for moving forward to increase our ability to share knowledge within the sector and with that Trevor is going to yeah so I think in the next sort of 10-12 minutes I'm not going to talk for 10-12 minutes but you are all going to talk and think for the next 10-12 minutes I just want to give a little bit of food for thought like today what have we done today we've had a lovely meeting here which has been live streamed we've had plus, minus, 150 to 180 tweets I haven't quite counted them exactly but they will come in that's been really impressive compared to the Twitter chat in previous years is literally five-fold, six-fold this year so that's great so that there is one way that we basically use this small room to crowdsource something and there are also other ways to crowdsource so if we take a step away from Susanna we think of just this idea of crowdsourcing what is crowdsourcing it's basically it's looking at putting together formats the challenging part formats that you can push out to the masses to the community and source information source input source ideas that then saves you as the person looking for this I suppose an economic theory the search cost you reduce your search cost dramatically because you have all the stuff coming in of course there is the danger if you put the format together too vaguely as your crowdsource too much but nonetheless I think going forward from a knowledge perspective we need to see how we can effectively crowdsource information from the sanitation sector and just a couple ideas we've said something about the thematic discussion series another one another idea is about having a sector events calendar whereby you put in the technology so that all the different community members or partners you can have some kind of some kind of quality control can actually then contribute to a very large sector events calendar so you can not only have global events but you can actually find out what's happening in the region and then of course there's wikis we know about wikis we know about that idea it's about collaborating in one document and having a living document and taking it forward and another idea of course is having crowdsourcing information from different partners using a profile that's not a new idea that's Facebook's model LinkedIn's model so those are a couple ideas but when we think about crowdsourcing what I'd like to discuss in the next 10 minutes is what do you all of you think are interesting ways to crowdsource information in a format that you don't get totally overwhelmed by what comes back at you so what kind of ideas could we maybe do some brainstorming about this in the next 10 minutes or so thank you and the other idea that Suzanna wanted me to speak briefly to is not just an idea we're at the soft launch stage of a washi library which essentially is an automated collection of washi related content from all the known libraries out there that when you go there's often duplication it's hard to find but the washi library makes it more efficient for us to be able to find the resources and then high grade the information to get the top references to be able to identify the mix of what's pure research versus gray literature project reports and to be able to group items in sub areas of our own interest where we are at on this is like I said we've got a soft launch and coming up right away phase one will be solely on the documents side of things such as research and publications phase two will also include news media self published news blogs images and diagrams videos and people experts and then phase three will include the social media aggregation phase four is improving the search capability which is basically making it a harder search engine based on user purpose intention or relevance so I may for instance really trust Olivier in terms of and I follow like I like how he categorizes his his little libraries and that may be a reference point for me so it's using a number of different tools that are now available which is really exciting because there's this convergence of all of this masses amount of information going online and it's hard to access it but there's also way better tools to help us access it and so that's an initiative that we'll be putting out shortly next for the last five minutes eight minutes is pardon me no we're not taking any questions that can happen afterwards what we really want to use the last part of this time is any great ideas wacky ideas thoughts that you've had in your own practice I wish I had or I wish I could we're just going to no discussion brainstorm no ideas are bad ideas put your thoughts up here reflect back what you've heard from like where your energy is around whatever and I have just communicated other ideas we're going to make a list some of them will be great and some will take initiative and other ones may come up in years to come so brainstorm ideas and I'll just you call them out we can't take the microphone out so I'll repeat the ideas so that our online listeners can hear translation Arabic Chinese etc okay instantaneous translation there's tools out there for that and I need a different pen okay search functions in the library search okay I'm not wanting explanation search functions we'll follow up with you so this is specifically for the washi library concept actually you guys have just given me an idea is what I'd like to do is I'll collect I have no idea whether my lead on this will appreciate or not this but what I'll do is I'd like to collect names of people who would particularly like to be part of the soft launch and to be part of the process and can provide us with feedback does it doesn't it what's missing so I'll collect that afterwards on the watch specific to the washi library so other ideas it's a very traditional one there's so much evidence that if you listen it all you've got too much so you need continued updated reviews a bit like a conference library yeah great Trevor you had something editors sorry online I haven't been reading everything editors to bridge language gap separate trainings and publications so the next one was crowd sourcing being a sounding board this already exists on Susanna but we could strengthen it right that's a whole other interesting area in terms of small data big data being able to capture it more crazy ideas from practitioners auto screen front like relevant news from non-wash any other online consultations online consultations sorry the last one was example was a 3 minute trainings and if you want more you can't work online training other so compared to study of this list with other sectors just ask if you put up your hands decision maker just hold on a second engagement in moves and then you had one good example there are a bunch of sites in the sector that already do some of these things that you've listed so I think don't duplicate how do we really promote those ones that are doing pretty well there's also a lot of information not behind firewalls you've got to log in thinking of like what's up in their practice notes there's a comment about a bunch of sites in the sector how do we promote those that do it really well and what do we do about the ones that have firewalls I'm going to have to wrap this up I don't know anything that was not captured here that you want to make sure it's captured here great so you know what I'm going to have to close this and with the additional ideas please email them to Trevor or come up and write them on the board at the end because we'll have the wrap up and then you can write them up and create some enthusiasm and some ideas that some of you might leave from here and take initiative on um I think with that I'll wrap it up and pass it back to Susanna to wrap up the day thank you to everyone and I'll have a piece of paper for those of you that would like to be on our cost list for the Washi Library as we develop and you want to provide input please my apologies I had it all set up nicely this one this one is 30 seconds Thursday afternoon room 351 we're going to continue the discussion we're going to see different examples from partners on how to develop capacity to different target groups and I hope many people from you are going to join as well room 351 it's just before the working group exchange so it's easier just come a little bit earlier so we get to the last part of the day where Anna is going to wrap it up for us, sorry Anna and Madeleine are going to wrap it up great and Trader as well has to say something this is a very well prepared wrap up this is a very well prepared wrap up I don't intend to go to the slides actually because we had too many slides and too much talking outlook and the outlook actually instead of showing it on the slide you all have this paper there on your seat and there is what's there where Susanna is a co-convener that's quite interesting and it as well shows all the working group meetings which are there during the stock on water week yes so come, let's continue to meet there and there is one on Thursday between 16 hours and 19 hours maybe that's one I should as well put here duck this one room 351 where we'll collect feedback from all working groups see an overview of the working group tools and discuss over arching somehow summarize what did we learn from the water week and what should we take in the next what should we take on in the next year we'll talk on that as well in the core group now and tomorrow afternoon and that's it the other exercise we are always doing is to say where's the next Susanna meeting and I know there is a suggestion but I don't know exactly what is the suggestion so maybe Trevor please right sorry the next Susanna meeting well we've been approached by the sustainability forum which many of you may have attended the last one was in Amsterdam in 2014 and I think Anna was there with a lot of other folks and many other folks were active in the sustainability forum I know there's no anything in 2015 but they are going to have another sustainability forum in 2016 and they want to team up with Susanna and have a Susanna meeting and a wash sustainability forum together in a sub Saharan African country and the countries they're currently talking about are Ghana or Uganda or Zambia or South Africa so that discussion has been started and that would be one suggestion and the idea that we could consider for the next Susanna meeting that would be the 21st and the timing would be in the first quarter so it would be at the end probably sometime in March maybe early April, sometime there so rather soon but we just did Susanna meeting this year now in August and previously in May so we're doing these things quickly so that would be one suggestion other than that and we're also open to other suggestions for Susanna for the next Susanna meeting naturally the key thing is that there's a strong local partner and there's a strong driving force and we're not doing a stand-alone event because we never do the idea is as well to combine it with events which are there in any case so this is from the Susanna roadmap if you download it which are the events coming up and the idea and suggestions so please yes not an idea but in 2016 the WEDEC conference in Ghana the WEDEC conference thank you the WEDEC conference 2016 will be in Ghana so if we can combine the conferences it's really great, more efficient when is it in Ghana usually they are around May June okay so that's slightly isn't it every other year? just one correction the sanitation water for all is hosting a what's called a ministerial meeting and that is going to happen in the first quarter date undecided but maybe as early as February March and the idea there is post the SDG announcement that in fact all the ministers would be invited to one venue that is distinct from the high level meeting which is now in October so that's the discussion with the ministers of finance so that now happens in October and the ministers have their own session in as I say date and venue to be determined but as early as February March it won't be in Washington but the only reason in Washington is the high level meeting fits with the minister of finance which is the full World Bank meeting so there is another venue under discussion and maybe announced at the end of this week thank you very much and if there are other ideas contact Trevor so that we can maybe combine these ideas or find synergies or select among them, share them with you great, thank you having said this I think that's it for today it was a rich full day I'm really excited about it and give the thanks to Madeleine and SCI who again did the eighth time a great job and it's not fully over there there's something waiting for us but I leave that to you first of all I would like to say that we will run the ninth meeting in connection with Water Week we all meet here next year again liking it or not we are always here for you and yes thank you, I would like to thank everyone who has been joining us on the web it has been very nice to follow the Twitter flow because I understand that people have been watching us online coming to the meeting or doing the contrary so go home and watch us online so that's really nice and I think we have had quite a good attendance and the Twitter flow has been nice and you have been very nice and patient with us and we are actually going down to what is called the self-pay dinner it's very nice, we're going to have a float for ourselves on the water down in the canal here and it's a very nice location lovely evening out there walking distance or not even that it depends if you take the German direction it will be complicated if you follow the Swedish short cut it will be very quick so you know who to follow follow your local guide and you will be there quickly it's downhill very close to here follow German maps it takes you time okay and then it's we also we like to treat you a little bit we are all very tired and happy so we have some wine so we have a mingle before we go down but we need to start to organize our things because next on Monday there will be 70 climate researchers in this house again so we have to leave it as we receive it this morning so we will be doing cleaning up while you are mingling okay one the glass wine here and carrying the chair here no no no, not chair but make sure that you bring cups and stuff like that to the kitchen okay, facilitate for us this one anyone who is a member of Susanna is part of the ambassador of Susanna so if we are attending an event that isn't officially on this list like CapNet in Colombia that we can reach out to you and for instance Ava who will be going who could do something on Susanna if you have please complete the list send events which you feel are interesting for Susanna this is not an official list it's a collection may I recommend you to enter in contact with Susanna secretariat and then I can recommend you to do something very nice you do a Facebook event in connection to you to everyone going to that conference works very well that's what you do with the younger people and it's very cheap, very easily arranged and you sit and you find your people around so we should try that in connection because you might not be the only Susanna member going there so you can bring update from the secretariat if you take contact with them and then you can have a discussion around certain topics there so yeah, so I think back to the logistics and back to the basics we are happy that you all came and we are about to close this very nice meeting for Susanna we started before 2008 and the 8th meeting here and let's celebrate that outside, thank you very much yes, thanks very much meeting is closed