 As-salamu alaykum dear respected viewers and welcome to the fourth and final episode of the Economy series here on Current Events, the program that takes an Islamic look at what's happening around the world. I'm your host Ali Jassim. On the previous episode we spoke with Sheikh Abbas Panju in details regarding how the Islamic economy sounds nowadays and what could its effects be on other countries if applied. Stay tuned dear viewers as we tackle today the final part of this series in which we will discuss our role, the people. What must we do from our part? We will answer questions like what should Muslims living in the West do to ensure that they are not involved in usury within their daily transactions? And what is the role of nations and people in fixing and correcting the economic corruption within governments? Here to answer these questions and many more is my dear guest, the Imam of one of the largest Shi'a Islamic centers in the world and an expert in economy, Sheikh Abbas Panju. Welcome Sheikh Abbas Panju and thank you for joining us in the fourth and final episode of the Economy series. In the last episode we discussed the Islamic economy in detail. Now just to refresh our dear viewers' memories before we begin today's episode regarding our role on what we should do, can you please briefly summarize what we talked about in the previous episode? Sure. In our previous episode we discussed about Islam's ideas in regards to as per the teachings of Ahlul Bayt and as per the model of governance established by Rasulullah and by his successful and by his rightful wasi, Amir al-Mu'minin, salawatullah wa salamuhu alayhi. According to the teachings we were able to establish that majority of the taxes that are imposed upon the people within the economic framework that we see today in regards to value added taxes, import taxes, export taxes, these are taxes that are seen as illegitimate and invalid impositions upon the people and under this category would be application of permits or licenses which create bureaucracies. Thank you so much for that Sheikh. Let's start with the first question in this episode. How could a government manage the country without imposing taxes on its citizens? Sure. In regards to the principles upon which an Islamic economic system is devised as per the teachings of Rasulullah and Ahlul Bayt, the government in essence does have sources of income in that within an Islamic economy there are taxes that are payable by the citizens of the state but the categorizations of these taxes are different than what is imposed upon us within the current day economic, within the current day economic system. So for example within an Islamic economic system if it was to be implemented they would bring primarily four types of taxes that are payable by the citizens of the state. The first of that is Khoms, Khoms being the 20% of the annual savings that the person is able to amass after having deducted all the expenses that fall within that financial year. So the tax in essence is on net savings as opposed to the current taxation system that we see today. Usually when you have taxes that are paid on your income, your tax, first of all the taxes payable on the income as opposed to if an Islamic economic system was to be in place the taxes would only be payable on savings. And straight away from this you are able to, excuse me, straight away from this concept in itself you are able to look, you are able to number one outline the mercy of Allah Subh'ana Wa Ta'ala and second through his laws and through his rulings in that the taxes that are paid by the citizens of the state are based on a savings rather than on their gross income. In our current taxation system today the taxes are paid from your gross income and the net income that you take home, the income that you take you have already paid your taxes before you are able to make, before you are able to take home your income. However, with an Islamic economic system the situation is totally different. The taxation is not on your income rather the taxes payable upon your savings and this is 20% what is known today as Khoms. This is one avenue and it is also important to note over here that when you attach the philosophy of this taxation in that when the tax payable is attached to the net savings of the people then you find that the success of the government in terms of the revenue that the government is able to connect is directly associated to the success of the people in that financial success entails savings. The more successful you are the more capacity you have to save and the more savings you have the more income the government is going to collect therefore the income of the government or collection of income from a governmental perspective is directly associated and attached to the financial success of the people. And you see over here that there is a harmony in the interest of the government and the interest of the people and that if the government's income is dependent upon how successful the people are measured through their net savings the government shall try and do everything within its power to facilitate it for the financial well-being of the citizens of its state because its own well-being is contingent upon the well-being of the people. This is in sharp contrast to what we see today and that when the government's taxes people based on their gross income the government is there to collect its revenue and the government is collecting a certain amount of revenue regardless of whether the well-being of the people is taken into consideration or not. Exactly as you say sheikh in the Islamic economy the well-being of the people is connected to the well-being of the government and vice versa. Why isn't that in our economic system we see that the government is thinking and doing things for its own while the people are too. In other words they are not together or connected in any way what do you say about this yes absolutely the fundamental difference is because my dear brother the reality of the matter is that Islamic economic principles as for the teachings of Ahlulbayt are devised by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala who is hakeem and these are teachings that are brought down to us by individuals who are infallible who have put together a system or who have conveyed to us a divine system that ensures the success and the prosperity of all human beings whereas when you look at the current economic systems that are prevalent now even in a free market economy and even before that within the communist economies you will always find that the rules and regulations that were in place or imposed upon the people was is primarily there to secure and safeguard the best interest of a minority of a ruling elite minority at the expense of the majority whereas in Islam Islam is totally different it looks at the benefit the growth and the prosperity of mankind as a whole this is the fundamental difference in principle and so therefore you are able to see that when the taxation system or the government income is attached or is contingent upon the net savings of the people and net savings is an indicator of financial success and prosperity to a certain degree you find that there is a positive correlationship between success of a government in terms of the revenue that it collects and the financial success of the people in terms of net savings so there is a positive correlation between that as opposed to what we see in the current day markets therefore the first avenue of revenue for a government through which it is able to earn income for itself is the homes number two you have the avenue of zakat the avenue of zakat in itself there are rules and regulations which you are able to find within the appropriate books of fika but generally speaking the and the same thing with entities upon which homes is payable however what we are looking into zakat you will find that the nine primary agricultural crops or livestock which are upon which homes is payable you will find that there is wheat there is barley there is dates there is raisin right and then from within the livestock you have camel you have cow and you have sheep and in addition to that you have zakat which is payable on gold and silver on the premise that gold and silver is measured or used in the form of a currency in the current economic system which prevails today gold and silver is not used as currency and therefore you will find that applicability of this is perhaps another behalf or another discussion on its own but generally outside the gold and silver when you look at the remaining seven items upon which homes is payable you find that it has to do with the most common agricultural products that are absolutely necessary for the nutrition of man i mean the ha zakat yes sorry zakat is payable apart from the apart from the gold and the silver the commodities upon which zakat is payable you will find from the agricultural crops the likes of wheat barley dates and raisins these are essential agricultural products in that are a play a vital role in in regards to the nutrition of human being and you will find that even in addition to that the livestock or the category of animals that come under the livestock for which zakat is payable the camel sheep and the cow you will find that from within these items or agricultural products or livestock that is outlined upon which zakat is payable you are able to sense in addition to the number of hadith that exist on the importance of strengthening the agricultural sector within our economy and you will find that majority of our developing countries whether they are in the middle east or they are in africa or whether in asia you will find that a great reason or a big reason one of the biggest reasons one of the biggest reasons and there are a number of reasons one of them being and perhaps one of the most crucial reasons that our economy suffer high rates of poverty and we have high levels of dependence upon other colonial economies is because we have given up the importance and we have neglected the importance of strengthening the agricultural industry within our own economies as you know the strength of an economy greatly subdues when it becomes dependent upon other nations for its agricultural needs just now when for example you have country x is solely and purely dependent upon country y and country z for its food and for its agricultural products you see that politically even its weight and its power begins to decline based on the concept of utmost dependence food and agricultural industry is a very essential industry within strengthening an economy and you cannot say generally all our people all our people are dependent upon food everyone is looking to secure their basic needs in in manners of being able to feed their in in the manner of feeding their families and therefore you will find that a lot of the revolutions a lot of the instabilities that are caused within nations majority majority of the times is because of poverty and because of inflation and that people are not able to secure their livelihoods or are not able to afford their livelihoods in regards to basic food commodities either this is and the fundamental reason for that is that the agricultural industry in itself is either corrupted or has become weakened so the coming back to our topic on the zakat these nine items upon which zakat is payable to the government each and every one of them has got their own particular rules and regulations in that what is the threshold there should be a certain threshold of crops upon which then a certain amount of zakat is to be paid whether these crops were nurtured or watered through natural means or whether there was human effort put into that all these things coming to consideration in order to determine the percentage of the zakat that will be given on those crops and the same is applicable in regards to the threshold for the livestock so this is the second aspect of taxation what this is the second means through which a government is able to collect income a third means of collecting income is the jizya and jizya is a form of a duty paid by non-muslims in exchange for payment of homes and zakat the third avenue through which a government is able to earn an income by manner of taxation is the aspect of jizya and jizya is a tax which is paid by non-muslims who are residing within the islamic state in exchange of homes and zakat and it is important over here to make a number of clarifications in that generally in the concept of jizya you will find that particularly over here in the west you find that there is a great misconception in understanding jizya and to a great reason this is because of the media coverage about jizya and the action of the ishla and the enemies of Allah and the enemies of Islam you as you may remember a few months back and if not a year back when they had illegally invaded certain christian areas within iraq they had forced the people to pay taxes under the guise that this is the jizya ordered by rasoolullah and if they would not pay the jizya then they would be killed i don't know perhaps our viewers would be able to remember this incident that had gained a lot of coverage at least within the western media over here so it becomes important for us to make a distinction and to understand the concept of jizya at least at a very simplistic level and that the jizya is not a discriminatory tax which is paid by non-muslims neither is this attack imposed on them as a punishment for not being muslims and neither is this tax to be subjected to them in exchange for their lives as is portrayed by terrorist organizations such as the ishla these are all against the teachings of islam in fact these people themselves the khawarij of our day and age are the enemies of Allah and the enemies of rasoolullah and the ahlul baid the philosophy behind the jizya is that it is outlined particularly for non-muslims because it is a tax paid in exchange of kums and zakat see when you have a non-muslim living within an islamic country which is fully implementing the rules of an islamic economy as taught to us by ahlul baid the non-muslim is not liable the non-muslim is not obliged to pay the kums and the zakat because the non-muslim residing within the islamic state he's not a muslim to begin with therefore he cannot be obliged to pay kums and zakat kums and zakat is an islamic obligation upon the muslims because the the non-muslims living within the country are exempt from paying kums and zakat in exchange for this kums they are taxed with another category which is known as the jizya in exchange of kums and zakat and this is just so that they are also contributing towards taxes but because islam gives them the freedom for the practice of their own religion you cannot force them to pay kums they are not obliged to pay the zakat but because they are living within an islamic economy and benefiting from the services of the state and from public services then in exchange they give a tax which is calculated for them on a different premise from that of kums and zakat so this is the third avenue of taxation which through which a government is able to collect income and the fourth level of taxation upon which the government earns income is through the taxation known as khiraj khiraj is a sort of land tax which is which is paid upon letting out certain categories of land and the detail of this is within the books of the fik however in addition to these four sources of income that we have we the teachings of ahlulbayt stipulate that these four avenues of taxation um are sufficient in order for the government to be able to spend money in regards to public uh public goods and public services yani whatever is outlined as a government expenditure these four outlets of income should be enough to cater for those expenses as we mentioned in the last episode the other topic that comes into hand is government expenditures how does a government streamline its expenses how does a government ensure efficiency such that it is able to perform its functions effectively at a minimum cost if the government is able to efficiently function at a minimum cost that it is also a yani that would mean it is working efficient at a minimum level of revenue and this revenue is through taxation and a lot of this has to do with the art or the science of efficiency within the government outlet during the time of amir al-boumini it was unacceptable for example for any one of his governors the wali of the province in this day and age even if you were to substitute the governor by thinking of him as a minister of parliament it was unacceptable it is unacceptable under the teachings of amir al-boumini and for example member of parliaments get ridiculously high levels of salary at the expense of the efforts of the people these are scandals that exist all across the world within all economic systems even recently within this week inside of the united kingdom there was a big uproar within the media because of the increase in the salaries that the member of parliaments are getting where they earn just close to about 70 000 pounds per annum and in addition to that they have close to 60 000 pounds of incentives so give or take a minister of parliaments is earning 130 000 pounds a year at the income of a minister of parliament or member of parliament comes from where from the taxes of the people according to amir al-boumini's policy of governance law the government officials would take a minimum salary and the salary would be the same at the same bracket as that of the working people it is it was unacceptable as per the teachings of amir al-boumini that the members of parliaments or that the governors should be taking home exorbitantly high levels of salary because the salary is earned through taxation and this taxation is paid from the hard earned money of the people on the ground and therefore efficiency within the government is a debate and the discussion on its own but if all the principles of efficiency were to be implemented as taught to us by amir al-boumini then these four outlets of earning an income would be sufficient for a government to provide all the public goods and services that are necessary in order for the state to function if you don't mind me just adding a small points to it my dear brother um fukaha in addition to these four taxes um fukaha have also mentioned that for example while in is the if the islamic state was to go through certain uh turbulent economic conditions then it is possible for a government at a very temporary level under the rule of hokmothanawi it would be permissible for the government for a temporary amount of time to impose upon the people an additional tax in order to boost the economy and the strength of that economy so under the uh clause of hokmothanawi it would be possible like the way imam al-rahil rahmatullah alaih has mentioned in one of his writings and in addition as well uh the government is able to earn uh income by owning certain businesses so therefore the government could be involved in trade so long as there is no conflict of interest and disclosing itself understanding whether a government institution or a nationalized business where it conflicts with the public interest of the people or the uh interest of the private sector again is uh is a debate that is separate but generally speaking on principle it is possible for a government to own certain institutions to earn uh certain uh means of trade through which it is able to earn an income and through that income they are able to provide greater goods and services uh to the public so um in addition to these four taxes there are other means and there are other clauses that are put into place through our thick that would ensure that if there is any deficit within the budget of the government in that the uh expenses or the government expenditures by far outweigh the income that is coming in through taxation there are other means and measures which of government can implement in order to uh in order to decrease that deficit so there is flexibility within islam and the system itself shah abbas we know that most of the countries are not applying the islamic system unfortunately so what should muslims who are living in those country do to ensure that they are not involved in usury within their daily transactions sure um in in this report my dear brother um you know the way a little more meaning salamu alayhi wasalamu alayhi used to say that um uh the question is the key to knowledge and the way a rasulullah salallahu alayhi wasallam allah musallam ala muhammad wa alayh muhammad used to say that seeking knowledge is compulsory from the cradle to the grave based on these two things it is important for muslims who are living in the west um particularly the followers of ahlulbayt that you know whichever profession they are going into and particularly in the professions of finance commerce business management marketing within the corporate world it is absolutely important for the followers of ahlulbayt to be familiar with the rules of thick in regards to muamalas the book of transactions today if i'm working within the real estate the rules of for example renting out properties or if i'm a uh if i'm commercially within the market renting out industrial areas understanding the rules and the regulations behind renting for example understanding certain financial transactions that are acceptable not acceptable for example you know is it permissible to short sell for example within the oil market buying future contracts all these different uh uh missiles that come up all these different islamic rulings um that come up within the uh corporate world it is absolutely important that we familiarize ourselves with those rules of thick in regards to the book of transactions to ensure that our means of earning that our income is not earned from an outlet which is halam therefore education is very important and number two it is also important that um within the scholars themselves who are living within the west um that uh they are in touch with the financial situations and the economic situations that are prevalent and between uh they serve as a link between the people and the maraja taqlid where as new financial issues and new means and the modes of investment come across for example which one of them are permissible which one of them are not permissible it is important that um they are able to facilitate in the process of obtaining the fatawa from our maraja and then conveying them on to the people uh particular to the particularly to the muslims who are living in the west um therefore the process requires knowledge uh it becomes our responsibility to educate ourselves to take time to read through the at the very minimum the masa il fighiya in regards to the muamalat to ensure that our uh means of uh earning is not tainted by anything that is haram so education is definitely important sheikh now what about muslims who are living in islamic countries whose banking systems are based on usury is there anything different they should do sure in addition to uh performing or in addition to educating themselves um in regards to those transactions that are permissible or not permissible muslim's corners um within the islamic countries economists it is important for it is important for us to have seminars and it is important for us to have conferences uh within uh conferences uh where economists from different parts of the world from different parts of the muslim world get together and they are able to debate and analyze and challenge and discuss the practicability of implementing an islamic economic system we need to have muslim economists who would go and take time to study the principles of economics as taught by ahlul bait and then bring them up within our educational institutions within the universities within conferences inter regional conferences or regional conferences that are held with economists from all across the muslim countries or the different muslim countries to be able to tackle or to be able to discuss these principles if they were able to see the beauty and the success of the nations by them implementing the uh economic principles as taught by ahlul bait this would be a first step within the process of changing and moving towards and implementing the the teachings of ahlul bait within our economic lives therefore it is important that within the educational institutions that um the matter of principles of economics are taught today we should come out of this habit of taking for example what adam smith founder of current day economics um the capitalist economic system why is it that um his principles should be taken as gospel law we should be encouraging an educational environment where our economists not only submit to those principles that are being taught or that have been implemented for example by western economies or by colonial economies rather we need to be at an educational level where we are able to challenge current day concepts and be able to come up with solutions through the teachings of ahlul bait there are there have been talks within the universities for a long time coming on the issue of an alternate economy the world saw tragedies and tribulations through a communist system today again the world is seeing tragedies and tribulations through a capitalist system does the world or do the people have a solution to an economic system that is able to guarantee growth and success and prosperity for the entire global population are you and i believe that the answer is within ahlul bait but then it becomes our responsibility as educators as scholars as professionals within the field of politics and within the field of finance and economics at a larger level to hold together conferences where we are able to educate the people and be positive solution providers to global economic issues by providing solutions from the teachings of ahlul bait therefore there needs to be a restructuralization within the educational systems economics studying economics being able to reduce economic theory on the basis of the quran and ahlul bait is absolutely important and i believe that this is where the work needs to be done if there is a movement from within our universities and within the educational system then we are able to have an impact on this in the long term if not immediately when it comes to implementing the systems so we can conclude that muslims in islamic countries have the bigger role and they should speak up and hold conferences or campaigns that demand the government to apply islamic rules is that correct cheikh no absolutely uh you are you are very correct my dear brother and the reason why we say this is because the underlining premise is that we're living within an islamic country therefore it becomes uh it is aula for the governments that are claiming to be islamic to implement islamic principles and the idea behind this is that you know the general people and the populations are tired of having a country that is islamic just by name slogan of being in islamic country is not important what is more important is the amal is the action that through their just through their behavior through their actions they reflect and represent the values of islam not only by name and therefore this is why the importance is based over here and not to say that it is not important even within the western world muslim scholars need to come out and within the western economies they need to come forward and they should be able to put forward on the table solutions to global economic problems through the teachings of ahlul bayt and this way inshallah the western world is even able to see islam as a positive force that contributes towards the well-being of the entire humanity this is the last question sheikh now what is the role of nations and people in fixing and correcting the economic corruption within governments now i know you just mentioned some in your previous answers but can you clarify a little more to our dear viewers absolutely um on the premise that on the premise that democracy prevails where the people are the where the power belongs to the people and they vote uh individuals into the government positions in order to serve them so therefore people who are in the position of the government are actually servants of the citizens of the state and this was a principle that was taught to us by amirul mu'mineen salawatullahi wa salamahu alaih where he said that the position of leadership is a position of servitude at the same time therefore when the people are electing government officials the people should make very clear for the government officials what their perception and what their expectations of a pure or what their expectations of a government is based on what does a nation build its expectation it needs to build its expectations from the teachings of ahlul bait from the teachings of rasulullah from the teachings of amirul mu'mineen today when i elect a government official into a position of power i expect him to behave in the same in line of the teachings of amirul mu'mineen amirul mu'mineen salawatullahi wa salamahu alaih when he took the position of government for the four years that he was uh given this dahiri or this outward uh rulership and leadership over the entire islamic umma imagine amirul mu'mineen in being the head of state of the most powerful empire that existed at that time of the world yet you find that amirul mu'mineen did not use the government resources to amass personal wealth for himself you find that during the time of amirul mu'mineen he as a government official lived the most simplest of lives he did not use government resources to enrich his own life and therefore my expectation of a government official who i elect into power should be the same that i am electing you and i am voting for you to be in a position of power on the condition that you are going to emulate within the footsteps or walk within emulate the behavior of amirul mu'mineen or walk within the footsteps of amirul mu'mineen amirul mu'mineen had absolutely no tolerance for bureaucracy within the government system he absolutely had no tolerance for inefficiency within the government then why is it that i elect leaders for example who are inefficient or elect leaders for example who promote corruption and are perhaps the source of corruption therefore the power is within the people in that when they elect the government officials they should elect those government officials who are able to walk within the seerah taught to us by amirul mu'mineen or the legacy left behind for us by amirul mu'mineen and the same applies to government leaders and government officials today if i am taking a position as a government official i should not look at this as a position of power i should not look at this as a position through which i am going to impose authority over the nations of the state i should not look at this as an opportunity where i'm going to amass wealth rather i should look at my position that when i'm elected as a government official this is a responsibility in the eyes of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala millions of people within the citizens of the state have pinned their hopes and their aspirations upon me and are putting upon me to deliver and to facilitate for their growth and for their prosperity today i should feel this sense of responsibility towards the people and towards Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and the best way i am able to do this is by implementing the seerah of amirul mu'mineen and of rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam allahu ala muhammad wa ala muhammad therefore for us to refer back to convert to dedicate our studies into examining and analyzing the political life of amirul mu'mineen political life of rasulullah what they expected from government officials who are working under their government what did amirul mu'mineen expect from them it is absolutely important for our politicians for our government officials to analyze these aspects of life and to implement it within their own lives as they go on to serve the people the position of government as the government official or as head of state or as a member of parliament this is a mus'uniya it is a responsibility in the eyes of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala where a person should do everything to ensure that he does not unjustly amass the wealth of the people or perhaps through his incompetencies he makes the people regress and suffer greater economically rather than if he was not to be elected therefore it is important and this is why we said at the very beginning that the rules and the regulations of islamic principles the quran and the hadith are absolutely applicable in the 21st century this is the beauty of islam just like the way it was applicable 14 centuries ago the rulings and the regulations that are placed are applicable to us today in the same way how pleasant with our countries be if they worked at a level of efficiency and humility and granted the freedom to the people in the way the government of amirul mu'mineen granted freedom to his people life would definitely be a paradise this would be a paradise on earth before attaining the paradise in the year after thank you so much thank you very much as well for giving me the opportunity to to be on your channel and to serve ahlul bait and i pray for you and i pray for all our viewers may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala encompass each and every one of you in his abundant mercy through the grace of ahlul bait may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala give us success in all our economic endeavors and our spiritual endeavors inshallah this concludes the final part of the series of islamic economy be sure to tune into the next episode of current events here on imam fosain tv3 we thank sheikh abbas panju for joining us today and we thank you dear viewers for watching until next time waslam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh