 Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Sonia Collina, professor of Spanish and Portuguese, Department of Spanish Portuguese at the University of Arizona. And I'm just going to give you a little bit of an introduction about how we are going to organize this. But of course, first of all, thank you all for all of you being here. And this is a great turnout, which just makes us really happy. Again, thank you. Remember, we'll have a reception afterwards. Don't forget about that. And this is the way, pretty much, we're going to organize this. So we're going to have each one of the three panelists we have today here, Claudia Angelelli, Edwin Gensler, and Anthony Pym. Each one of them is going to talk for about 20 to 25 minutes at their discretion. And then we're going to have about 10 or five minutes in a total period of 30, 30 minutes. For questions, they're specific to the talk. Things that have to do with something that's said, that maybe needs a little clarification, something they are specifically interested in. So then that will be an hour and a half. We'll be giving you a little bit of an introduction to each one of them and to their background. After each one of them has finished, then we're going to have about a half an hour panel so that anyone can ask any questions of any of the panelists. There could be questions that you don't have a chance to ask about their talk, or there could be questions just in general about multiple levels of the presentation, which is in general is the topic of this mini symposium and the topic of each one of their presentations in general. Each one of them will present in an area and within that general area, some aspects they have to do with what they do with their specific area of expertise in translation studies. Thank you very much, Sonia. And also for spearheading and master mining this whole wonderful gathering today. My name is David Gramling from the Department of German Studies. And I have the happy task of thanking everyone who contributed to this event. And it's so lovely to have a crowd like this for this particular kind of conversation. So let me just share with you very quickly all my gratitude towards those of you who were contributors to the event, primarily the Department of Spanish and Portuguese, who has a pride of place for this event as having one of the only BA programs in translation and interpretation in the country. So that should be noted. Also the College of Humanities, the National Center for Interpretation, the Confluence Center for Creative Inquiry, who is hosting our reception directly afterwards. I think there's some, do you all want to come in? There's some seats over there. And also we had strong financial support from my own host department, the Department of German Studies, the Center for Educational Resources in Culture, Language, and Literacy, CIRCLE, the Critical Multilingualism Studies Journal, of which we have several board members of that journal here in the room as well, including one of our speakers, Anthony Pym. The Department of East Asian Studies, the Department of English, the Graduate Interdisciplinary Program in Second Language, Acquisition, and Teaching, the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences, the Center for English as a Second Language, the School of Middle Eastern and North African Studies, the School of International Languages, Literatures, and Cultures. And I'd like to warmly thank the directors and the heads and the deans of those various units on campus for investing in this particular event. I would also like to, of course, thank the Poetry Center for this fantastic room and their hospitality, particularly any Leach, I'm sorry, Allie Leach, Sibel Noles, and director again, Brown. I'd also like to mention that beyond the actual co-sponsors for this event, there's lots of constituencies in the room. And I'd like to mention some of those who are here among this particular gathering. That includes faculty and graduate students in Russian and Slavic Studies, Classics, Linguistics, Speech and Hearing, Film, Gender and Women's Studies, French and Italian, Africana Studies. We have scholars from the School of Education here in language, reading, and culture. We have physicians. We have health interpreters and translators. We have core translators. We have local public policy folks. We have language learners at every level and language teachers at every level. We have literary translators from at least 10 different languages in the room. And we have working literary translators and translators in other fields. We have those who are currently training to become translators and interpreters. And I just wanted to mention that so that we have a sense as to what kind of gathering this is. So that when our new university president and we were hard-talked last Friday at her inaugural address about integration and application, I think this is exactly the kind of gathering that she had in mind. So that's very exciting to me. A couple of logistical items that I'd like to mention and then I'm gonna sit down and listen, I promise. We have a clipboard that Jenna and Melissa over here are going to share with us. If your name is not on that clipboard, please do sign up so that we can tell you more about initiatives like this coming in the future. U of A is notoriously federal in some ways. It's difficult to find people and share information, share accomplishments and plans and initiatives. So if we can use this opportunity to kind of create a community around multilingualism and translation, I think that'd be a wonderful thing. So to that end, please do enter some information about yourselves on that clipboard. Today's event is going to be videoed. So it will be available for you to share with folks that we're not able to be here. We'll hopefully have it up by the first of the year. And it's going to be on a website called Centering Translation at arizona.edu. So we'll have that together for you to share. By the time you're nice and rested, I've been ready for the new semester. I also want to thank our Dean of the College of Humanities, Mary Willner-Vassit for being an extraordinary inspiration and support for this type of initiative. And without her, this would not be taking place. So I'd like to ask you to give a warm welcome to our Dean, Mary Willner-Vassit. Thank you all. Thank you for being here. This is great. As you've heard, my name is Mary Willner-Vassit. I have the privilege to serve as Dean of the College of Humanities. And a real privilege of welcoming you all to this event, and especially our visiting scholars. Thank you so much for being here. We're here together to take advantage of the opportunity presented by having these scholars here on campus and of all of your interests, as we can see now. To reach out to translation studies and translation scholars on campus, regionally, nationally, and internationally. I'd like to encourage us all to view the current moment as an auspicious one for encouraging transdisciplinary initiatives on professional translation, translation studies, interpreting, critical multilingualism studies, and related fields. There's a lot of relations going on here. I'd also like to call for all of you, our faculty, graduate students, and all of you who are interested here to self-identify and join the effort, just as David and Tristan invited you. Sharing the ways in which our work interacts with the kinds of translingual and transcultural inquiries that we are emphasizing with this event. Translingual and transcultural inquiries have long been at the heart of how the College of Humanities contributes to civil discourse, to the knowledge economy, and to our land-grat university mission in a border region which, with many cultures and many languages. In spite of that, it is so far a unique event today. The translation studies college can be brought together in this way for this many people to exchange stories about their shared institutional, social, theoretical, applied, and cultural experiences. We can't ignore the undercurrent that is often unspoken in translation and related studies that the social marginalization of translation, and especially often interpreting, has social, ethical, economic, and legal consequences, often masked by or masking social prejudice. In contrast to that way of thinking, though, I want to emphasize here that our cultural and linguistic diversity is one of the most important social assets of our region and of the University of Arizona. Multilingual information access and multimedia forms of translingual and transcultural communication are our strategic priority. Localization of multilingual services has become a major industry branch and a professional service sector with growing market shares. Many of you know this, maybe even intend to work in that. A critical understanding of and support of communication across languages and cultures in most domains of science and technology, economy, art and culture of all kinds, social interactions, and healthcare, to name just a few, all of these require theorizing and applied understandings of all that is involved in translingual and transcultural communication. The National Center for Interpretation, Testing, Research, and Policy, known here as NCI, here at the University of Arizona, is dedicated to ensuring language access to limited English persons. The Center has gained international recognition and it offers a variety of services, including interpreter training and testing in both the legal and the medical fields and self-study materials to ensure that interpreters, especially reach a level of excellence required by the field. The work of the National Center is poised now to expand and to include additional initiatives that will further enhance translingual and transcultural opportunities that can be a focal point for much of what we do here at the U of A in this round. Along with what we've already heard about, the translation and interpretation emphasis with the VA and the Department of Spanish and Portuguese and some of the many other initiatives that we have. We want to see more involvement from many languages and cultures and we want to grow and deepen our expertise, our understanding, we want to integrate and apply, just as our President and as David has reminded us. I welcome you all now to hear from our speakers and to join them with us as we embark on centering, translation, interpretation, and multilingualism. Thank you. Thank you, Mary. Okay, it's my turn then to introduce the first speaker. I'm just gonna give you a few words about so that you have a good one idea about her background. Dr. Claudia Angela Ely, she is a professor of Spanish and Portuguese linguistics at San Diego State University and she teaches a variety of courses there, such as research methods, applied linguistics and also of course English Spanish translation and interpretation. Her PhD is in educational linguistics from Stanford and also she has a number of other translation and language related degrees such as master of arts and teaching foreign languages in Spanish. She has graduated certificates in TESOL and also language program administration from the Marmarite Institute of International Studies. And she also has a degree in comparative law and legal translation from Argentina. And various other certificates in English, Spanish, translation and interpreting also from Argentina. Publications, she has published quite a bit. She's very well known in translation and interpreting studies but I'll just give you a few titles here so that you may have seen other yet that you may recognize in the future if you see them now. She's the author of Medical Interpreter and Cross-Cultural Communication published by Cambridge University Press. Revisited the role of the interpreter, another book published by John Benjamin's and she's the co-editor of Testing and Assessment and Translation and Interpreter Studies also published by John Benjamin's. She's published a number of articles regularly in interpreting Meta Monti, the translator, the annual review of Applied Linguistics, the critical link TIS, Translation and Interpreter Studies, the International Journal of the Sociology of Language. She has also done enough of applied work, applied research work with foundations and a number of other groups. Among them she designed the first empirical driven language proficiency and interpreter readiness test for the California Endowment and also for Ablamos Juntos. She's the president of ATISA, American Translation and Interpreting Scholars Association. She's the world project leader for the ISO Standards Community International Standards Organization on Community Interpreting and she is the director of the consortium of Distinguished Language Centers. She is also a servant, she has served as, ATA, sorry, she has served, she's not currently serving but she has served as ATA one of the ATA directors, American Translation Association for six years. And without any further delay, Dr. Angelari. Thank you very much for that kind interaction and thank you for this invitation. It's really my pleasure to share my research with you today. Can you hear me okay if I speak with this microphone? There we go. So in the next 20 minutes, I will try and give you an overview of the topic that brings us together today and I will try and address linguistic diversity in the US. Basically, we don't need to argue that point but just showing numbers and how do we as a nation meet this linguistic needs? What are our responses at the national and state level? I'll be giving an example of California. I have some little data on Arizona but you know more than me about Arizona. And then we are going to look at the key players in translation and interpreting and the value of experiential and scientific knowledge in the field. I'm going to address the role of research and academia in translation and interpreting and the role of specifically translation and interpreting studies. So multilingualism in the United States is nothing new. Here is the data from the 2010 census and as we can see, 20% of the population in the United States does not speak English but the picture gets even more interesting when we look at what does it mean and how people speak English. This graph is showing us that out of the number of people who do not speak English well, these people generally are known to not need some language assistant at a certain point, whether when they go to a hospital at the court enrolling for school, whatever it might be, they may need some assistant in language. So the picture gets even more interesting when we look at the percentage of speakers of other languages in English and now we compare the nation, the state of Arizona and California and we are seeing here the increase between the census of 2000 and 2010. So just to set a background for the talk. I'm specifically interested in the healthcare sector. Lately I've been conducting research with Spanish, Hmong and Cantonese in different hospitals and clinics and a national survey that I'm using from 2006 is indicating that 80% of the hospital that took part in this survey encounter patients with limited English and at that point, this is how the hospitals that took part in this survey responded to this need. We can see that 92% of the hospitals we're offering are offering now interpreting via telephone services. Sometimes they have those telephonic interpreters on site and sometimes they contract outside agencies. 18% have community interpreters, 74% are supplying that need with what we call ad hoc interpreters, with non-professional interpreters. 82% have bilingual clinical staff, for example, the X-ray technician, that they may call them to say, you know, I need an interpreter here and I don't have an interpreter, could you do this for me? Sometimes the bilingual employee is listed on a register as offering this bilingual service and sometimes it's just because they have a last name that is Gutierrez and they would just pull Gutierrez and ask Gutierrez to interpret, right? 66% are using external services, 63 independent and 68% are the hospitals that have staff interpreters on board. How do we as a nation respond to this need? How do we tackle this problem? We have national associations and speaking here mostly in terms of how do we respond to the practice? So for example, the American Translators Association has a big division of interpreters where they discuss issues of interpreters' practical needs. We have the National Association for Judiciary Interpreters and the National Council for Interpreting in Healthcare and what used to be the Massachusetts Medical Interpreters Association now is International Medical Interpreters Association. So these are associations that are offering workshops, courses, they have a code of ethics, they bring together professionals with a conference maybe one per year, maybe regional conferences more times a year. Let's take a look at how some of these associations are certifying interpreters and I think things get really interesting at least for me when we go deeper into understanding the different requirements. Here we see that in order to be certified as a medical interpreter, where we know so far in the United States we do not have a master's, we used to have one in Applied Linguistics and Health Services, we no longer have it and we don't have a VA that prepares students specifically for medical interpreting but a high school degree would do and we have to be proficient in English and the target language, there's a written and an oral exam. The interpreters need to get re-certified every five years and the interesting part is that that can be done with completing 30 hours of continuing education. So sometimes attending a conference would allow you to get re-certified. Similar situation with the Certification Commission for Healthcare Interpreters where we need at least 40 hours of training and there are popular programs that are 40 hours of training that are based on ethics. So a bilingual person gets on the training and can get certified and know the ethics but may never have done simultaneous or consecutive interpreting. So it's interesting to look at how these things are constructed and to analyze them and to see what abilities they are targeting, what skills are being measured and how they are being measured. And I could go on and on but I wanna save time for questions so I jump ahead and I'll talk specifically about California. California passed legislation whereby each hospital that receives federal funding needs to offer interpreting services and what happens in California? How can an interpreter become educated as an interpreter certified? Again, we have some developed in legal interpreting but not a whole lot in medical interpreting. So when it comes to education we have requirements as the ones you're seeing on the screen for judicial interpreters. When it comes to medical interpreters as I said, we don't have programs. Here are some professional associations offering workshops and short what they call training. I have to say I have a problem with the word training. I talk about professional development. I don't want training to get confused with education. So this is the different associations that we have and yes, we do have a code of ethics in California. So if I may now pause for a minute and say what is this picture telling us? Here's where I think we pause and we reflect. There's the practice of translation and interpreting which is so imperative and so important because otherwise how do linguistic minorities get access to services, right? If we don't have a body of practitioners that are doing their job. Now, the issue becomes a little more complicated when we see that the practitioners hold a body of knowledge that's based mostly on their experience, beliefs and training. And I'm using the word training because it's this 40 hours or eight hours or two hours. Then sometimes those same practitioners are running the professional associations. So we see that by running the professional associations and taking part in there, many times the rules of practice, the standards of practice, the code of ethics are in a way authored by these practitioners who are running the profession and who may know how to do their job and may or may not have had enough time and enough education to reflect on ethics and maybe ruling on a code of ethics out of wider knowledge or out of experiential knowledge. And then in some cases in the United States we have the schools that are more practice oriented also run by practitioners which means that in many cases classes are taught out of practice. So they are practice oriented. Most of the instructors belong to professional associations are teaching based on their practical and experiential knowledge and this is how the discourse on translation and interpreting becomes constructed. And so it's interesting to see that outside of that circle of practice there are also people who are studying translation and interpreting parts of practicing translation and interpreting but if we don't interact, if we have one circle and then we have theories, research, knowledge from related fields and I would argue crucial fields to translation and interpreting studies such as cross-cultural communication, bilingualism, cultural studies, linguistics, anthropology, social, just to name a few. Then we can see how we may be operating to different words and it's never a good thing to have practice and research or academia not going together. So this may justify for example why we may require only 32 hours of education for a medical interpreter to walk into an assignment or how we may not even require any education from a medical interpreter to walk into an assignment and I'm not saying here it cannot be done that's not my message. My message is let's pause and look what does that mean in terms of access to services? What does that mean if I get communication negotiated by my cousin who's an ad hoc interpreter and if I don't have a professional interpreter my cousin will go to visit with me and will interpret for me. So I want to now bridge towards the notion of I think we all in this room I'm amazed because we have not only multilingualism but multidisciplinarity in the making here when you define who was attending this colloquium. So I think this goes without explaining that we see how different theories, different fields of knowledge nurture theories in translation and interpreting. It goes without saying. And sometimes when we look at those 30 hour workshops we may be depriving the participants from understanding and considering translation and interpretation in its widest possible way which is ethical dilemmas that will occur and how do I explain to my students that this will happen if I take this path and this will happen if I take this other one and I need to be aware. And every decision comes with responsibility and if I have not been given a chance to reflect on that, that could be a problem. So translation and interpreting theory and research have not been divorced from practice and I have here only some examples that are all listed in the handout that if we don't have enough it's going to be on the website and I tried I guess here not to overlap with my colleagues. So I only listed some studies in what I think are not going to be fields that will be discussed by you. But for example we see bridges in the acquisition and development of translation and interpreting skills when we look at studies on bilingual children and bilingual youngsters. How do those bilingual youngsters for example broker interactions with their families when we look at how we teach languages we first look also at how language is acquired as a first language and we learn a lot from the acquisition of first language when we teach second language. Same thing occurs when we look at how youngsters, children, bargain, broker language between the community and their families and we have seen plenty of studies coming out of Canada and the United States and Europe in that area. We also see studies comparing bilinguals and professionals and looking at what are the skills that we may think come natural with being bilingual and then what are the ones that really need to be taught. No bilingual learned how to do site translation without being taught how to do site translation for example so on and so forth. We see studies on curriculum design where we also bridge education and translation and interpreting studies, measurement and testing, designing tests for the classroom for the purposes of certifying interpreters or translators and in industry in general for a job position for example. We also see studies on role, on problematizing that role that's taken for granted when we think that interpreters are invisible, transparent, neutral or that they are social workers. There are problems in both sides and so we reflect on those and research helps us understand and pinpoint what the issues are. We also see research in professional ideology. How does one become a professional translator and interpreter when we don't have the system that we have for medical doctors? So does being a member of an association make it or passing an exam or attending meetings or what is this professional ideology and who is professional and who is not? And ethical dilemmas is the one I mentioned. So just by way of an example in three minutes I will go through an example of a mixed methods research design where I was curious to see the notion of visibility of being present and taking part in an interaction. I wanted to know what interpreters' perceptions on their role was and if I offer a continuum of one to six, one being really invisible, neutral, don't exist in the room, six being broker communication, take part, clarifying what do they think they fall based on their perceptions on their role and their beliefs of their practice. And then that being done in a qualitative way, the second part would be an ethnography, a qualitative study on the role that interpreters play during an interpretive communicative event. So quickly going through this there's the interpreter interpersonal research, interpreters interpersonal role inventory story that has 51 items that would ask interpreters agree or disagree, one to six. My role as an interpreter is not well done until understanding doesn't happen, for example. An interpreter who believes that's not my role. My role is there just to interpret. Then if the parties are at ease or if they gain an understanding as a different story, we'll go absolutely disagree. An interpreter who believes that his role is only to broker and not to be neutral will be absolutely agree. So I wanted to find out in the United States, Canada and Mexico, in three different settings, conference, court and medical, what are interpreters' perceptions about their role? Rather than taking them for granted and prescribing on what their role should be, I wanted to see if those prescription match practice. So I will skip through the results of who took part in this, what social factors were measured, socioeconomic status, education, what not. But this is really where I want to stop for a minute and see that as a result of that study, what we see is social factors such as affect, age, ethnicity, gender, nationality, power, race, socioeconomic status and solidarity do play a role. The interaction doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's permeated by all the restrictions of the institution and the cultural norm, societal blueprints in general belonging to a specific society. So nothing occurs in a vacuum and we see that in discourse. How do we see it? I'll skip through all of this that tell us these differences are real and there's only a 1% chance that they happen, 1% that happen by chance. I'll skip this and go into how do we know this? Going into a hospital, I followed 10 interpreters and a manager during 22 months and I pause here just to show you the background of the interpreters. These were staff interpreters in a hospital where I spent 22 months collecting data and trying to see what strategies they are using to become more visible. And you see on the fourth column to the right, their education. And we see again, it ranges from high school to being medical doctors in their own country. There were three of them out of the 10 that were medical doctors. All of this were employees of the hospital at the time working eight hours. And then what did I see? All of this evidence of visibility through their behaviors that I think will become better if I just give you an example going through this slide. The more interpreters take part, the more consequential those interventions will be for the quality and the quantity of medical and personal information about trespass. So the more an interpreter intervenes, for example, on a scale from one to 10, how would you rate your pain? And then we see an interpreter going, Senora Maria, if one is the number that you can go dancing, you're fine. And 10 is that you're almost dying. What number? How would you rate your pain? Senora Maria would go dying, I'm not dying. And all of a sudden we see 16 turns of talk, interaction between the interpreter and the patient trying to understand what this pain scale means. And then we see another set of eight turns trying to construct a pain rating that by the time it's done, may mean nothing to the healthcare provider, the patient or the interpreter. Or maybe exactly the rating that we needed. And I know by the way this happens to us in a monolingual setting too. Because every time I get an anesthesia, I will be asked that question and I purposely ask, what's the difference between a two and a three? And no, no coping with anesthesia. So this is showing how interpreters go from the use of pronouns, which is extremely innocuous, such as, you know, I'm interpreter, so I'm going to help you talk with the doctor. So the interpreter gets to introduce this set, if it hasn't been introduced, from that one that will have no consequences because we all do that as speakers, right? When we're meeting, we are at a cocktail party and we haven't been introduced, we stand there until we just introduce it. No consequences to that to the interpreter replacing the monolingual interlocutor. That medical doctor in this country of origin, that's not taking off the hat of the doctor and putting the interpreters one on. But all of a sudden, in the case of an emergency, gives more advice than what was given by the monolingual interlocutor. I have tons of data to illustrate that. I'm not making any of this up. I just don't have time to show you transcripts, but they are in your list of publications. Now, this study that I conducted in California, I replicated in Australia, both the quantitative and the qualitative one. So we now have data on Australians' healthcare interpreters on their perceptions and beliefs about their role coming from Melbourne, Sydney, and Darwin. I'm extremely excited to be working with three different groups of interpreters there, the immigrants and refugees and indigenous languages interpreters. And not by chance, and I'm closing with this, that the problems are very similar to the ones we have in the United States, we have in Arizona. Here's a background information for you. This 160 language is spoken and this is a status quo. So the difficulty of finding qualified interpreters. The fact that all of a sudden, the interpretation services is going into hands of private sector. What's prevailing is the cost. So the lower the cost, the better, and we don't look at the quality of interpretation. And I won't read through all of this, just to illustrate it's the same problem that we are having, although the population is different. And so by way of concluding this, what I wanted to say, I don't think it's anything new, is that we know that linguistic minorities need access to services and as the need for translation interpreters continues to grow, how do we provide as a nation a meaningful response to this need. And I think it's coming out of this dialogue, this conversation as a one you're having here today between research and practice. Because I believe that research and theory inform practice and we want that practice to be informed and practice indeed makes research and theory relevant. So with that I would like to close my talk and open the floors to questions. We have about eight, 10 minutes for questions, maybe eight people. I think we're just going to pause to bring down the blinds because it might be a bit difficult for the speakers. I want to have my sandgrass, it's coming down though, I don't think it's going to be fine. So this microphone can go out into the audience or keep this from going. That's fine. I actually have a question from a medical doctor standpoint. Have you guys looked at, you looked at what interpreters think, right? Have you looked at what medical doctors prefer and what patients prefer? And I wonder what data you found there. Thank you for the question because when I conducted that study, a question that was guiding me was a question about interpreters or say that I did have to interact with the two parties. And as a way of also giving back to the hospital where I spent all this time, during run rounds I was presenting data to medical doctors. And I got many, many different reactions. This was a hospital where interpreters were staff members and interpreters were saying that they were always called by the same doctor with whom they could work as a team, that the doctor was very comfortable in working with him, et cetera. Then I would talk to the doctors and the doctors knew that certain interpreters were better than others, than would do things that would help them in their work. For example, the patient was walking on the, in order to get an AKG on the treadmill. And so the doctor would look at the patient and say, you know, I don't really understand the gestures and I don't know what he's trying to say. So why don't you ask the questions about are you feeling okay? Are you doing okay? So you could see that teamwork. Then when I was showing them discourse and I was trying to tell them, you know, you're giving up control of the medical interview when you do such things as for example, ask her about chronic illnesses and all that, kind of taking the medical history. So the interpreter would take it upon himself to go, have you ever had surgery? Have you ever had this that enlisted certain types of illnesses? And then would go, have you been hospitalized here or there? Have you taken any medicine? Any medicine over the counter? Any medicine, anything given to you by La Comadre Juana, right? That would never have happened. Or yes, we don't know. So I was really concerned about this notion of interpreters have not been trained as medical doctors. And yes, they have done that for a long, long time. Yes, in this particular case, three were medical doctors, but they were not appointed as medical doctors. They didn't have the board for, you know, to practice as medical doctors here. So the control of medical interview sometimes belonged to the doctors, sometimes was, you know, co-shared. Sometimes, you know, it was given to the interpreter and the interpreter would run with that. So I had different reactions. And I think what I did get almost across the board was we have no time. We have, so when interpreters wanted to conduct a pre-conference interview and explain their role to patients, say, you know, you need to be careful because everything you say has to be interpreted. I have the duty to do that. Sometimes the patient would say, don't tell the doctor, but I'm not taking this field. So they were warning the patient. Many times, doctors would say, you know what? We have no time to do this. Because of course, an interview that would be interpreted would take a little longer, sometimes a lot longer, sometimes a little. Although we have had hospitals where I've conducted research measuring consecutive interpreting and taking turns where there's a case in Northern California where they use simultaneous interpreting. And now it's being used in New York and in video interpreting and whatnot. So that, the timeframe, the time issue would not be an excuse now because we can do it pretty much in the same amount of time. Another thing that I've heard doctors in medical conferences who pays for this, right? When it's not the federal mandate, but it's a hospital that has to do it who covers the cost. I don't know if I've answered your question. Yeah, but what about patients though? Do they care? Okay, patients don't want to wait. So in my data, what I have is patients being really, really happy when an interpreter was available right there and they didn't care if it was on the phone or on the speakerphone at the time in that hospital, his cousin or who, as long as the interview, because sometimes it took them a long time to be able to get that appointment with a doctor. So patients were grateful to have an interpreter in the room and patients couldn't tell the difference if the interpreter was able to do a good job or not. Thank you. Sure. I have another question. Yes. Hi, I have a question about medical tourism. I know there's been a huge increase in medical tourism especially in Mexico and the US and San Diego. Do you believe there's going to be some sort of medical certification that's specific for medical tourism, some sort of international certification, I suppose? I started studying medical tourism in Korea actually because that was one of the places where they started doing research on medical tourism. And then I'm really bad at telling, forecasting the future because I don't want to say something that I cannot support, but it wouldn't be a surprise. The thing is that we first would need to have a solid program in place for medical interpreting that goes beyond 40 hours or one semester. And I know there are efforts across the nation and there are wonderful opportunities online, but to go from an introduction to the field to then specialize and go beyond terminology, which is the issue in the sense that medical tourism brings another factor into the equation which is not how immigrants, sometimes their access to language and services perceived as he doesn't understand, he doesn't have the degree of education we need to tailor it to his language. Medical tourism, you don't have that. The social factors are completely different. I'm not saying you don't have it, but you have it to a lesser extent. So you get people who may have a medical degree and go to have certain surgery in a country where they have better access to it or whatnot. So I think it calls for different strategies and they are also going into escorting and taking care of it and doing many things that in the US they're still in debate. Like some hospitals expect from interpreters to push the wheelchair and to take the patient to the chapel and to go to a pharmacy. And others would go, no, you just do your role and only that. So it's really difficult to say because code of ethics many times mean well and end up putting interpreters between a rock and a hard place in the sense that interpreters either want to hold on to their jobs and believing this ethical dilemma is also problematic. So I hope the day comes when we are tailoring to medical tourism too. I don't know. Thank you. I've often seen the policy in certain medical settings where there's a sign that says you have to bring your own interpreter. You must bring your own interpreter. And I find that those policies end up driving who is doing the interpreting. It's oftentimes family members because these families are not hiring someone to bring with them to go to the doctor's appointment. So I just wanted to ask you in all your travels have you found a policy either in any kind of medical setting that you find actually drives the right the correct kind of use of interpreters rather than kind of leading people down the path of kind of pursuing unethical ways of interpreting? Well, I'm thinking of one particular hospital a rural hospital in Darwin where they had not only signs but they had an office to welcome Aboriginal patients into the hospital and to do even an introduction on the different culture because the patients were coming in with beliefs and I don't mean to be to stereotype at all here. It's just, you know, what I collected in interviews. For example, they would not accept to go to a second floor and the operating rooms were not at the ground level and they wanted to be at ground level. So they went through a lot of effort in trying to ease the patients. And of course it would never be the culture of a hospital and the culture of the patients in this particular case even more are very different. But I thought that was very, very interesting and they would provide professional interpreter as far as they can be agencies. But then when you look into the agencies and how the education or the training happens it's problematic too because it's basically knowing these key words. And so they end up speaking like Tarson but they may get the right organ or not. I don't know. So it's a problem but from what I've seen in the US when you get federal funding you have to provide an interpreter and even in those cases sometimes those signs are not on saying this is our duty to the patient. So it is, I understand your question and it's a difficult one. And I don't think it's because we don't want to provide it's just the need is so huge and our response to that need for the time being is what we can do. And I also don't blame the fact that not a lot of people want to go into a field when sometimes they are paid $20 an hour if they interpret on the phone. So for that responsibility. So it's a complex issue. Yeah, one that deserves all our attention. So I hope we can keep working on it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Claudia. With this we're going to move on to the second speaker. Before I do that I just want to make a little clarification. I noticed that the handouts that we're passing out somehow only one page got copied. So we're missing the A's and the B's. So it starts with a C as opposed to have some A's and some B's. So we'll be posting those on the website with all the other information. If there's anyone who really wants to who wants to look at that before the website is up and running just send us an email either on one to me or to David Gramling. We have the information on the information that you got to come here today. So just let us know and we'll send you that. Otherwise we'll be on the website and I'm sorry for, I don't know how that happened. Last minute kind of thing, let's get one page. Our next speaker today is Dr. Edwin Gensler. He is a professor of comparative literature and director of the Translation Center at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. He is the author of Translation and Identity in the Americans. New Directions in Translation Theory published by Rallidge in 2008 and also a classic in translation studies contemporary translation theories, Rallidge, 1993, which has actually been issued in two revised versions, one in 2001 and another one in 2003. And has been translated into Italian, Portuguese, Bulgarian, Arabic and Persian. He is the co-editor with Maries Timoca of Translation and Power and of numerous articles and journals which is TIS, Perspectives, Target and Translation and Literature. He serves in a number of executive committees such as the NIDA Institute Advisory Committee for the NIDA School of Translation Studies. He is the co-editor with Susan Bazin at the Topics and Translation Series for Multilingual Matters. He's been doing that for 15 years. He's edited over 20 volumes and he was also one of the co-funders and executive committee members of ATISA, the American Translation and Interpreting Studies Association. He helped co-found two journals, Translation and Interpreting Studies, ATISA's journal, TIS, which is published by Ben Germans and he is on the editorial board of a number of other journals, Massachusetts Review, Perspectives Across, Metamorphosis and the Journal of Chinese Translation Studies. Again, with that for the delay, Dr. Edwin Gensler. Is it down here? Next one. All right, so the other side. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you, Sonia, and thank you, David, for having me down here. Thank you, Dean Wilder-Nurbassnet. What a wonderful introduction. Thanks, our distinguished panelists and our co-sponsors, the German department in particular, Sev Wudgumacht, and all the audience members, of course. What a pleasure it is to be here to talk with you about some of the things that we're doing in translation studies. And whoever came up with the name for the Centering Translation is a brilliant title, so very seldom do I get to speak at any organization with translations being centered. I'm going to talk very, I want to, just Sonia, or Claudia Angelelli's talk is really good. She's one of the leading scholars of interpreting studies in the world as you can gather from the research. I was on, the I-M-I-A used to be the M-M-I-A, and I was on those committees that started those certification exams from the very beginning. And I have to say, I was thrown out of many, many meetings. A 30-hour training, a 40-hour training, a high school minimum decree to be interpreted. And a lot of the people in the room were those people who had been practicing interpreting for a long time in the United States. And they did not want something like me to come in, a university professor, and set the bar too high so that they would be legislated out of the profession. And it was a real tension. Medical interpreting involves, as this questioner asked, what's the doctor's perspective? You have to know a very high level of professional discourse. You're not going to learn that with sort of an eight grade education, being an immigrant in this country, high school. It's, so we've developed at the University of Massachusetts, it's an upper level undergraduate course. And it was designed by a doctor and an interpreter. And we teach systems of the body. We teach medical procedure. We want the interpreter not just to know the terminology, but to know why is the doctor asking these questions. What is, you know, if there's a pulmonary problem, they need to know how the pulmonary system works and what might be going wrong with it and why. So I've sort of split off from that. Why still attend their meetings and they do a lot in Massachusetts still. And there's some great people involved in that organization. We have some wonderful hospitals in the Boston area. The Dana-Farber Institute. The UMass Medical Center in Worcester is excellent. So there are some wonderful people there, but there are also a lot of other people in the profession that are fighting for higher standards. And I also want to say that her research is unique. Be able to follow around patients and interpreters for 20 months and collect this data to see not just what teachers say an interpreter should do, but to see what actual translators and interpreters aren't doing. It's unique. I've tried to get that research going at the University of Massachusetts and I've been unsuccessful. Hospitals do not want the professors and the researchers in there. They're afraid of a loss. They're afraid of a mistranslation and something going wrong. It's very hard to get those permissions. Her study is pioneering, her data is pioneering and it's changing the whole field. Okay, I have some similar statistics. I'll fly through these. This is what I'm going to talk about. Multilingualism in the USA, multilingualism in Massachusetts and then multilingualism in translation studies research. And this is very similar to Professor Angelo Elias' slide. 60 million people or one out of five Americans speak a limited or non-English language. And here are the top languages and I was talking with Anthony Penn a little bit earlier. I learned my languages and translation in Europe translation studies and I started at the University of Massachusetts thinking that I would be God's greatest gift to translation studies in Massachusetts. Massachusetts 93 languages are spoken. The top 10 languages are not the languages that we teach at the University. So this is the problem that I inherited and all of us in translation here and I'm sure you have similar problems here. But I have done so much. I have taught the Vietnamese word process I have taught how to write the standard Haitian Creole. I have done so many things that my academic training never prepared me for. And I think we have people from the critical languages here. Universities need to get more involved in not the standard languages that are taught at the university and help train people for the social problems and medical and legal problems and diversity problems and integration problems and cultural problems that we are experiencing. These are the source countries. In my research, this book, I went back and talked about translation and identity in America and I went back to pre-revolutionary war period and I don't know, the Constitution had to be translated into six languages before it was ratified. Pennsylvania had over 40% of their population who spoke German. The United States has always been a multi-lingual country. This is not a new problem. It may seem new in Arizona, but it's... You're certainly getting great headlines across the nation right now, I'm sorry. But you can see how things change. Here is a graph of 1970 and the languages that were predominant there. You see Italian, Germany, Canada, Mexico's at 8%. Over here, you have Mexico's up to 29%. Poland, Soviet Union, those disappear from the top 10 languages today. Cuba, Ireland, Austria. Look at the languages that we need today. Philippines, Vietnam, El Salvador, Korea, Dominica, Cuba, Guatemala, all right. So the immigration patterns are changing and the universities change very slowly. This is a problem. So how do another 30 years or 40 years it's going to be very different again? And then each state is different. I think everybody from Aristides in government and exile ended up in Boston and all of a sudden we had an incredible problem of providing Haitian Creole translation. Growth of Chinese immigrants. You can see this, it's growing from doubling, tripling, quadrupling in just a short period of time. This is the growth of the Spanish speaking immigrants which is one of the languages I'm sure you're facing here in Arizona. But you can see the growth up 140% over the last three decades. Whereas in terms of the total population, immigration is up 33% or the Spanish is up 210%, I'm sorry. The non-English speaking population in the United States is up 140%. I don't know, we're seeing it in elections now. In Boston we have a Spanish speaking city counselor, Felix Orojo and then we have a Korean speaking city counselor, Sam Yoon. So we're seeing real change going on here. This is immigration by state and by city. I'm looking quite a bit at translation in cities and my research is showing that translation is more than just a linguistic problem but it becomes a way people who live in a city can manage that city, can survive when you talk or publish or you meet an immigrant group or you speak to an architect or you talk to a bank go from one neighborhood to another. So here are some of the cities that are, I have a large non-English speaking population and then you can see the state, the dark red state of California, 25.4% foreign born there. The light red, which would be Texas and Florida, 90, 10.9% and then the dark pink, Massachusetts and Arizona would be two to 5% of the population being foreign born. This is the Mexican immigration and you can see Massachusetts turns into a light pink but Arizona goes into a darker pink. So Massachusetts has a large influx of the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rican. Our Spanish is very, very different than the Spanish spoken here and this is also a new trend in translation studies to look at different local populations and what they speak so it's no longer, my translation center, we asked the client who was the audience for this. Is it a Puerto Rican Spanish? Is it a generic, neutral Latin American Spanish? Is it a peninsular Spanish? Is it a Mexican Spanish? And we are doing Spanglish for a client in Chicago. But then there are different Spanglishes of course so we have to, so in translation, this is perhaps driven by the industry more than by academia. The industry talks about localization. They're forcing institutions such as mine to begin teaching this in the classroom and we have a consultant, Patricia Gubitose who does dialects of Spanish and Professor Collena's words here which is also very strong in this area. This is the Chinese born population in the United States. I just throw this out so that you can see that here, Arizona goes to a very, very light blue but then you can see other states such as New York moving into a darker color. So the immigration patterns are of course very, very different. And this is just, the census was really only counting the legal immigrants. There's so many illegal immigrants that aren't counted in many of these statistics. So, and here you can see in terms of the estimated number of unauthorized immigrants over 7 million are coming in from Mexico. 61% of the total. Up 50% from in the last eight years. But then you can also see some other numbers. Honduras for example, 81% change or Brazil 72% change. In Massachusetts we have an incredible amount of Brazilians. The town of Newton has been taken over by people from Minas Gerais. They've taken over the downtown, they've taken over the shopping centers, they've taken over the car dealerships. They've done a wonderful job renovating the downtown which was the old factory town, old fabric and garment town. And they've completely renovated. But they all come from the same local. We have many other Brazilians and other towns in Massachusetts. And we do quite a bit of work in Brazilian Portuguese. Unauthorized immigrants by state. And here you can see Arizona is in the top, it was at top five with an estimated half a million unauthorized immigrants coming in. People, this is so hard to estimate though. These numbers, this is from, I don't know, a DHS library statistics publication. These are all estimates. But I've seen estimates where the Chinese illegal immigrant population coming in is about 100,000 a year which means that they would have increased in the last decade by nearly a million. I guess the talk that I want to give today is to sort of compare Arizona to Massachusetts. We had a very similar problem in Arizona's experiencing today in Massachusetts about three decades ago. And if you look at the immigration numbers, the size of the four born population in 2010, Arizona is ranked 11th out of 50 states. 51 is the district of Columbia. Whereas Massachusetts is ranked seventh out of 51. So we have a higher percentage of four born in our state than Arizona does. Percentage of four born of the total population, 13 out of 51 versus eight out of 51. Number of change, the four born population in the last decade, 14th out of 51, 13th out of 51. Percentage change of four born population, 36 out of 51, 39 out of. So you can see the two states are in many ways very, very similar in terms of percentage of four born. As I said, we went through this problem a while ago. 1980 to 1990, the Hispanic population in Massachusetts decreased by 103.9% at the highest in the nation. I've seen, I did a little reading about Arizona where Arizona ranks a percentage of people coming in. And it's very high. I've seen people say that it's the highest in the nation. It's very high. I think Georgia is actually higher than, and I think Nevada is sort of tied with Arizona today. The Asian population in Massachusetts increased by 187%. The non-white population increased by 270% in Massachusetts. Massachusetts in the 90s, this is when I came in, came back from Europe and got my job at the University of Massachusetts. So I arrived right in the middle of this. Between 86 and 91, the number of Hispanic prisoners more than doubled. Between 87 and 93, the number of Hispanic children fostered homes more than tripled. We had some real problems in the state of Massachusetts. It really breaks my heart to see these, mostly Hispanic men behind jail. Maybe they get one chance to tell their story to a cop or to a judge. And if the interpreter is not very strong, that's their chance. And if they don't get it right, bang away there. And I don't know what's going on here in Arizona, from what we read in Massachusetts about what's going on. I don't even know if they're getting that one chance to tell their story. So this is when I come into the translation business in the state of Massachusetts. I arrived in 1994. All right. So in the state of Massachusetts, 93 languages are spoken. All right, the translation center that I took over translated into about eight languages. So what I did was I, well, I pretty much fired all of those people. And I started recruiting my own group and then I started recruiting in a whole new set of languages. The top languages that we needed were Spanish, Portuguese, first and second, by a fairly substantial margin. And then Vietnamese, Khmer, Haitian, Creole, Russian, French, then you see the other European languages, French, German, Italian, then it comes into the ocean. And the university, as I said earlier, was not training in these languages. And so I figured out ad hoc ways to get the quality of translation up in these languages, often doing workshops on weekends, myself. New clients, more social services. The translation center tended to be kind of a literary country club. We started offering more social services, healthcare providers, small businesses. And the people found out about us, this is something universities have an incredible, I don't know how many languages your students speak in the College of Humanities, but there's a tremendous resource of talent at universities, international student bodies, and then U.S. students who travel, all right. And immediately our business grows. We've had years where we made a half a million, almost $600, $650,000. And then I use that money, it's a little bit like Robinhood. I give it to graduate students. And I give it to student-studying minority languages. So that's how we finance our graduate studies program. The certificate interpreting studies which existed at UMass before I started was basically trying to train people to be interpreters at the UN. And what I did was I shifted that so that they'd start learning. None of the graduates ever translated at the UN. So we had a placement percentage of zero. So I changed all of that and made it a community interpreting healthcare, legal studies, mostly social services. New language support in languages with limited infusion. I recruited people to help give the students feedback in these lesser known languages. And then the cultural turn in translation studies. As Professor Angelo already said, there's so many cultural problems in the minute. Person speaking, limited English walks into the interpreting counter. And if you can relieve some of those tensions and anxieties before the interpreting studies encounter, you have a much better chance of success. Ethical problems, internships, international exchange programs. The MA in translation studies that did exist at UMass but they hadn't had a graduate in that program for about 10 years. So I dusted that off and we started a cultural studies component. We introduced new technology courses. We used to be literary primarily. We added other kinds of projects that we would accept. Did a lot more theory and practice. And then there's new faculty. We just hired two new faculty this fall. A wonderful professor of interpreting studies, Mara Inglieri. And a new professor who's doing research on cities in translation. Especially, she's taught her course on New York. She's gonna teach her course on Barcelona and on Havana, Regina Galasso. Partnership for the trial port. We got a three-quarter of a million dollar grant. With the trial court to develop a three-year program in court interpreting. And then we offered that not just at UMass but via distance learning in Springfield and Boston. And we taught Spanish to court employees across the state. And then I helped design and implement a state certification program legal interpreting. And I modeled, I see Jaime Fatas is here. I modeled our state exams on the federal exam here in Arizona. Although I have to say our pass rate is a little higher than the rate here. It's a tough federal exam. So ours, I think our curve is, the grading is a little easier. And we designed court interpreting exams in Spanish and in Portuguese and in Canary. You offer here, I guess it's Spanish. Who's from the NCI here? Anybody? What language is that for? What languages do you certify here? Yes, I offer it's a piece in Spanish and I want to represent you in Navajo. Navajo? Yeah. It's in the country that offer any training for Navajo. It's fantastic, it's fantastic. Thank you for doing that. I had a split job. I worked half-time in conflict and half-time in directing the translation center. So I teach in comparative literature. And that was great. Everybody in my department translated or had written about translation. There was no sort of marginalization or prejudice against what it was that I was doing at all. But we've done so many things. We both, we have a requirement that our students had to either know German or French to get into the program. So that was the first thing I jettisoned. But we now have students in these languages and then we started student conferences and we started new courses. Now we're starting to, our best graduates we're sending on to do a PhD. So they have to reapply into comparative literature but I have a pretty good chance of getting them in because I'm on that committee. All right. The partnership with state and national organizations, we hosted the second ATISA conference and our relationship with ATISA has been just brilliant. What a chance to find out what other researchers going on in the United States. It's a wonderful organization. If you haven't found out about it, let either Professor Collina or Angela Leno that'll get you on the mailing list. We do work with IMIA. We do partner with ATA. We developed this medical interpreting course which we offer via distance learning. We collaborate with the Office of Refugees and Immigrants. We cooperate with the Mass Law Reform. We have this coalition in Massachusetts called the Babel Coalition. So anytime legislation comes up that's disadvantageous to the people who we think need help, we have this lobbying group already together. And it's just great. We've gotten an interpreter services bill through Massachusetts. I think it's one of the only ones in the nation where if you have a certain percentage of non-English speaking people in the community of your hospital, then the hospital has to provide qualified interpreting services for those people in emergencies rooms and in a couple of other places. I think it's the first of its kind in the nation. It's very difficult to get that through because everybody was telling us how much is this going to cost. We didn't know. Why don't you start offering these services, people will come. So it took a long, long time to get that through. Okay, I'm going to fly through some of this other stuff. My own research, this is a book I wrote a couple of years ago. New definitions of where scholars are studying. And I take this from Emily After. Translations is a geographical space, diasporic language communities, border cultures, print media spheres, department programs, and in universities. The politics of all of this, government involvement in domestic and international policies, translation in military and foreign policy. And then the psychological space. Translations studies is getting very, very interested in exploring the repercussions of both providing translations and then not providing translations on individuals. So this is a direction we're going. I'll end with this quote. One of the reasons why there's so much poverty and ghettoization in the US is that people who do not fit invariably of a different color, ethnicity, culture, and language are often cast aside. Examples include Amerindians relegated to reservations, Chinese centralized in Chinatowns, blacks, and over-gettos, Latinos, and barrios. Many minorities, including mostly men incarcerated. With no translation policy, no policy of mediation and negotiation, there's no other place to put them. And I argue the expulsion is never complete. Monolingualism always includes multilingualism, although it's deceptive because it hides in the multilingual fabric upon which it rests. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much. Ah, thank you very much. And we have time for about, I think, about one question before we need to move on. Does anybody have the burning question that I'm not seeing? Yes, please. Well, I'd like to say I'd like to comment, please. I've known Edwin for many years. And I was in Massachusetts when he was a court interpreter in Massachusetts before he was stolen from us. And I have two pieces of information that I would like to share with you. One is that I was the president of the judicial intervention of Massachusetts when the judiciary in Massachusetts decided to implement throughout the state service in order to provide interpretation services in the courthouses. I think that we went from providing over 7,000 linguistic interventions the year prior to the implementation of the service to more than 80,000 the year after while saving millions of dollars to the taxpayers. Just by deploying interpreters in courthouses and cour complexes where there was a high demand for those services. So it's not only the right thing to do but it also saves a lot of money. And there was somebody here who asked us how do we measure satisfaction with interpreting services and providers and patients. I'll give you one example, one local example. There's just one hospital that I know from the Metropolitan area here in Tucson, the Tucson Medical Center that has professional interpretation services. They launched that service a few years ago under the International Services Department and they've been posting profits consistently every year just because the community realizes that they can communicate that they are being better served and they're actually attracting business from Mexico. So there's a certain moment. It also delivers better justice and delivers better healthcare. Sure. What I found working with judges and I'm not frequent with the Supreme Court Justice of the state of Massachusetts is that they were very nervous about these statistics. Latinas incarcerated and kids in Boston, they were not happy with the delivery of justice. You have many, many allies in hospitals and courts. And it does save money. And if I may add, besides being the right thing to do, liability for hospitalization, we have recent cases where because of lack of the provision of interpretation or interpretation of railways, hospitals have been sued and they have to pay more time millions in order to settle those cases. Recently, 71 million dollars in a hospital in Florida, two hospitals in New Mexico, certainly in California. So just put the numbers together. How many interpreters can you provide in a hospital with 71 million dollars and $2,000 per head? So that's what I did today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Okay, and we're going to turn to our last speaker, but I want to remind you that there is food and light freshmen afterwards. So if you're starting to get a hankering, it's coming in about a half hour or so. I got to know the work of Anthony Pym while I was doing my own doctoral work. And I have to say quite honestly that his work really revolutionized the way I think about texts and multilingualism and translation. And he visits Tucson just about as often as my own family does. And we're really grateful for that. So it's really nice to have you back. I'm going to read this really quick. Anthony Pym is professor of translation and intercultural studies and coordinator of the intercultural studies group at the Rovira Virili University in Taragonia, Spain. He runs a doctoral program in translation and intercultural studies. He's also president of the European Society for Translation Studies, a fellow of the Catalan Institution for Research and Advanced Studies, visiting researcher at the Monterey Institute for International Studies. And this is my favorite, my professor extraordinary at the University of Statenbosch, a title to which I certainly aspire. His most recent book, and it pains me to say that I haven't read it, is On Translation Ethics. This is John Benjamin's 2012. A warm welcome, please, for Professor Anthony Pym. It works, yes. Thank you very much, David, Sonia, Dean, and Lighton at all. Especially, I don't know if you're aware, but this is a very prestigious bunch of people to be next to. Claudia is president of the American Translation Studies, Translation and Interpreting Studies Association. The two continents meet here. And Edwin is the mainstay, has been for a long time, key figure in American translation studies, and beyond, as I'm sure you can appreciate from what he's been saying. I'm going to do something entirely different, but it will pick up from where Edwin left off. I'm going to confess my shortcomings. Now, I once believed, as some of you might, that translation and interpreting involve an utterance over there in one language, and an utterance over there in another language, and a sort of similarity, equivalence, something between the two, where we can trust that this represents that. Is that what it is? Well, yes. But I once believed that that was all there was, OK? And I'm no longer there. Now, this is not a story of salvation. It's not, I was lost, and now I am talking. No, I thought I was found. I know I know I'm lost. I want to tell you why, that this is questioning. My main questioning is the balance between these two things. Most of the models we have of translation and interpreting involve two sides, text, utterance, culture, language, whatever you want, and some of the guy in the middle that's got to do a balancing act of some kind. Now, the thing that's bothering me is the overwhelming evidence of asymmetry, of imbalance in that relationship. And that's what's bothering me. It's got me into, it would be a midlife crisis, but I'm too old for that. At the very stage in my career where I'm supposed to be defending positions, it's all crumbling beneath me. I'm going to present four instances. Edward likes it when I confess. Four instances of not stuff I know, things I would like to know more about. Where I think I would like to know more research that can help me with my existential asymmetric problem. But the first is this. In recent years, not so recent, 10 years, we've got a lot of information on cognitive processes of translators, written translators in this case. And this comes from thinking about protocols, screen recording, translog, and this is eye tracking. You are going to see a person translate here. I've stolen this from Art Jacobson in Copenhagen where they do a lot of this research, Copenhagen Business School. Now, I was taught and I teach that the unit of translation is the sentence and that you get the meaning of the sentence and then you put it in another sentence, right? Let's see what happens if it works. I was also taught that the difference between written translation and interpreting, conference interpreting, is simultaneity. There's also the inability to do repairs, but interpreters do repairs. And anyway, watch. No, don't watch. Oh, down there. There we go. The blue is the person's eye, OK? Here we are reading. There's nothing new in eye tracking and a reading research has been around for a long time. This didn't bother to apply to translation. It's like all the education stuff we never bothered to apply. We've got something. Now, how many units were processed? The eye went to the end of the sentence. But now look, we're in a process of something like trout fishing. You see these guys in the street? Will a fly go out there and catch a bit of meaning and bring it back in? No, there's nothing there. Oh, we're going to go back and get small. Watch the simultaneity. You will find moments when the hands are writing and the eye is reading. What's that if not simultaneity? Something else is happening there, OK? Good. That's all there is. That's all there is. Now, a lot of research is done on this sort of stuff, using this tool, comparing novices with professionals or experts. Many different definitions. It doesn't matter. This is intriguing research. If we can define the differences between the novices and the professionals, we can define what we should be training people in. After all, our teaching is to get people from there to there, in many cases. And you can define the parameters according to your market. The Redmond's obviously got a different market out there from what we'd have in Monterey, where we're training for a state department and nasty governments here and abroad and all over the place. And we have a list of findings. Things we're fairly sure about. Now, those findings can be summarized, something like the following. The more experienced the subject, the translator, the more time they spend looking at the target site, the translation. The faster they read, but they don't actually translate faster. The more experience they have, the more time they spend revising or reviewing. That is, looking at the target site. They make fewer changes, but they spend longer to find them. The more experience they have, the more they can say about the client and the instructions and the way they translate it. Looking at the target site. In some, the more experience they are, the more their attention and their cognitive activity is happening on one side than the other. It's a fundamental achievement. It's not reasoned that way. Because the people doing the research believe in theories of purpose, or Scopos, and theories of functionalism, and theories of context. So they say, with more experience, people incorporate more context into the cognitive process and are related more to the purpose of the translation, the communicative function to be achieved, rather than the textual material. All of that is true. But still, my concern is, why is it happening more one side than the other? Why this fundamental asymmetry? End of my first question. I've explained what's there, but I want to know why. Second question. This is a colleague in Monterey, now in Rico University in Japan, at Kaoko Takeda, a few years ago, came in with this observation. Why is it that my best conference interpreting students, the best ones, in Japanese English, between Japanese English, why is it these are the ones who learnt the language, the second language of late in life? Why is it that the heritage speakers are not getting to the top level? I've been asking around. That's quite common. I went, last week, Spanish section, he said, yeah, three heritage speakers dropped out in the last semester. And Kaoko's got the data. She can show this up quite clearly. We don't know why. But my suspicion is, some of you might say because they didn't learn about translating early enough when they were learning, that my suspicion is that when you're learning a language late, it's not like learning a language orally earlier. You're learning not only the written language, which is important, but also you're incorporating a whole lot of mapping procedures because you are working from L1 to L2, whether or not you're supposed to, according to the pedagogical theory of the moment. It means that when you're learning late, you are using translation to learn secretly perhaps. But should it be any surprise that those mapping operations you've incorporated come out so quickly when you have to translate? Should it be any surprise that when we get those early learners, people who are fully bilingual and they're thrown into that situation where they have to mediate between the two, they have real trouble? It's not just, I suspect, they haven't been trained enough. Not that they have to learn the alien eye in various linguistic devices or go for 30 hours of ethics, as if that were sufficient. I suspect that the late learner has incorporated automatically this fundamental asymmetry. They are better at one language than the other, usually. And that that asymmetry maps onto the asymmetry I'm finding in a professional experience. I have no doubt at all. This is not an empirical lesson at how to do research. It's just I would love you to go out and tell me about that. Find out about that, please. Help me with my problem of why this asymmetry. My third question. Oh, dear, this is going to get, he's not my class. Now you can see. I'm going to get you down. See the light. Crisis over. My third question is getting back to a strong, serious translation theory of the kind that has alterity or otherness or foreignness at its base. One example would be Quine, who had this wonderful thought experiment extremely influential. The jungle linguist goes out to describe, I hit the two unknown languages. I'm sure you all know about this. And finds a native. Rabbit runs by, native points, says, Gavagai, and linguist writes down, Gavagai equals rabbit. Shresley, equivalence, right? And then Quine goes through all the possible areas of doubt. What do you mean rabbit? It means look my dinner. Look how fast he runs. Low a fee on the rabbit's right ear or something like that. And he goes through all the ways we could attempt to reduce the indeterminacy of the utterance and get clues that it's impossible, that there is always indeterminacy or uncertainty, that we don't know for sure what is there. All right, that's fair enough. And that's been very influential for me. It can be attached to the deconstructionist thrust and the interpretative moment and homo noitics and everything else you want to do there. That's fine. I'm worried about, well, the asymmetry is clear, OK? One guy's got a pen, and it's right and down. And the other is just pointing at a rabbit, which got away. So one guy's got the power, and the other guy's hungry. It's a colonial situation in the dead. Why are rabbits in jungles anyway? OK, that's all that. But then I went back to the text. And Quine actually writes there that this thought experiment never actually happens. He says, a chain of interpreters, marginal interpreters, he recognizes, can be recruited across the darkest archipelago. There is never this virginal, primal contact with the other. We are always, I always said, almost already, but you know what I mean. There is always that first contact there. There is not this first contact with the other. Now, I've been reading this. Every translation theorist in the United States, including Evan Hick, makes much of Walter Benjamin's essay on the task of the translator. And we find a lot of things written about that essay on the basis of the importance of foreigners, of not communicating, of the mysticism. But I'm reading it in terms of my problem of symmetry and asymmetry. What is the relation between languages in this essay, in this hermeneutic, profoundly hermeneutic view of translation? And I get stuck. I've used this before, but I've extended it. Edwin would be pleased. This passage where Benjamin points out that the German term Brot and the French term Bain both mean bread of some kind. We can't doubt that. But there is a relation to be established there. But since Benjamin, the way they mean it, the art of this minus, the way of meaning is entirely different. We get stuck on that. Now, I've been wondering about bread, French bread, German bread, baguettes, rye bread. Wonder bread. You think it's because there are different cultures there and different ways of making bread is done. Now, that essay was published as the introduction to a translation of the tableau Parisien as part of Gaudelet's Les Fleurs du Mal. And so I went through Les Fleurs du Mal and I found bread. It's only there two places. One, La Muse Vénale, where it's a prostitute who goes out to earn her evening bread. Saint-Père de Chakrassoie. It's a lovely line. Where does that come from to earn your evening bread? Does it sound like something you've heard? If you've asked this, they are daily bread. Yes, it's a pun on the daily bread. And then the other poem, La Benediction, it's the maudite, the decadent poet who is dressed up as an antipriest. And we have a reference to Le Par et le Val. Bread and wine. Where does bread and wine come from? In a poem called Benediction. My point is that you think that in translating this text, it's the two act this moment. It's the two ways of meaning of French and German that are coming together. But if you look at the example, it's the Christian church that has structured that's the magic field quite explicitly pre-structured it in the cases where it appears. Now, the only bit of advance I've got is that I've looked at Benjamin's translations. And I found bread in a place that isn't there. Talk about asymmetry. It's a completely different text, where Baudelaire is talking about, once again, a rather suspicious-looking woman who is like a ver qui dérobe l'om de Ziquilmange, a worm that eats away at what humanity eats. What happens in Benjamin? What it's eating, this worm, is this mentions Aiglish ought, man's daily bread. Christian church, Christian reference, pre-structure of the field. There is no primal contact there. There may be asymmetry, but in the text it's not asymmetry. And my horrible suspicion. And in this, I can call it with Marilyn Gannis's roses and analysis of another text, not the one I've been looking at, and Hans Vermeer's analysis of comments on Benjamin's actual translations. He was a much better theorist than he was a translator. And Benjamin's main problem there was getting a rhyme. And my deep suspicion, my horrible suspicion. I hope this is not true. I've got to work on this more. Tell me more. Tell me that the artist's mind is not just a problem of how to get German to rhyme like French. Full stop, but let us move on. The point to make is that a lot of the theories we're taking at face value and use to build very poetic, elegy things about respect for the other, welcoming the other in, appreciating foreigners, constructing hybridity between equals. You get down and look at the text and look at the text in the way they're functioning. As a deconstructionist would, you find that anything that looks symmetrical is being constructed on an asymmetry that can be recuperated. My fourth and final source of doubt. Four circumstances beyond my control or because of them, I've been thrust into interest in the Vatican, the Catholic Church. Wonderful group of flavor, veritable series of theses, criticism on translation going from Vatican II right up to the current day. And the current, one that's currently in force, as you might imagine, if you know anything, if you're a Catholic, liturgic and autentic is rather restrictive. I'm being very polite in what you can do with the liturgy. But it's framed within a greater theory, a cultural theory of translation, which goes by the name of inculturation. And the basic idea here, in, not in, inculturation, is that whatever you're doing when you're translating, it's not between two separate cultures that have the same status. They're very clear. This is like lucid colonialism. In inculturation, one culture is incorporated into the culture of the church. And the church culture is transformed as a result. It's eternally enriched. And in texts from the 1990s, you find the Catholic Church rewriting its own history as the history of translation. We had Jewish thought when we integrated the Greek thought, and Augustine came in and did this, and so on. This is great stuff. This is why it's asymmetric, perhaps. But it's just another source of questions. It's not two cultures or two languages meeting. It is, for them, in their theory, one culture taking over the other and being enriched. The way the Roman poets feel freely recognized that Greek culture had been incorporated into Latin culture. This has been worrying. I work for the European Union in many indirect ways and some not so indirect. And I think, well, what did I do? Am I trying to protect the English language? Protect Spanish? No, that doesn't happen. It all becomes Euro English and Euro Spanish. No, that's it. The European Union does the same thing. It grows and incorporates new languages, new cultures, and brings it into its fold, and is enriched through translation. The fundamental model isn't one language against the other, one culture against the other. It's the one culture growing. Ooh, dear me, that's frightening. We don't want to stay there. So I thought, well, if that's the only game in town, then globalization is finished, and we all have one culture. And some writers actually say this grace in these commentary on Quine. So this is almost embarrassing. Oh, it's all Western culture now. And I thought, well, wait a minute. If there's inculturation, what else can I find? Is there anything like out-culturation, ex-culturation? Well, I wrote a book on translators and intercultures in Mexican history. And as one chapter, I actually argue that Mexican culture, such as we have it, has proceeded from the intercultural groups to translation-miniating groups, mainly a bilingual legal system and a priestly cast of bilingual monks. And from that overlap, they developed a new culture. Other examples researched by Jean-Marc Guarnvique on science fiction. Traces the way science fiction moved out of French, you know, Jules-Van and all that stuff, into the American novel, was reworked and then translated back and reinforced itself like that, separating from other genres. Keith Harvey's Doctor of Thesis was on the gay novel, remarkably enough, doing the same thing. The Americans, using the prestige of French, the model of the French, to produce their novels, which were translated back and held up as models. Different things can happen. Translation can be used in many different ways. In this use of translation, the model here, it's used to leave a particular sector away from the dominant systems around it to produce a new genre, much as the way international translation studies itself constructs a prestige of center in many versions, which then gets exported and reconstructed in a periphery precisely in order to lever people away from departments of literature and linguistics. But perhaps I go too far. All right, these are simple questions. I've also come to admit. It's interesting to apply theories of translation as actively transforming the relations between cultures and to admit that we are not immune from that process. But this is what we're engaged in, whether or not we like it. I'll also freely admit there are things like metaculture. The European Court, for example, takes in representatives of member states, transforms them with a legal language over a period of 10 years, such that, after 10 years, the court then takes the member states and sues them. What was principle? Agent, the agent becomes a principle and dominates. Translation is playing a key role in that formation of a metaculture. And then finally, if there are metacultures, why not subcultures? Young students in China have excellent English. How did they get it? And their professors never got it. Spoken English, I mean. They were watching American, so Popper has got helpers. On illegal websites that are closed down and appear in another place and closed down. On fan subtitles, really creative subtitles done for free. A whole subculture is within, below, transforming the entire academic culture, I'm sure, on the level of English terminology. There you have it, my four questions. I'm not going to tell you I've discovered anything at all. I'm just in this crisis, which tells me that translation is what it always was, but it's become a lot more interesting as well. Thank you. Okay, I see you've probably figured it out by now. We're running a little bit behind. We have time for one question for Anthony Pym, Professor Pym. I used too much time. Yeah, no, we're gonna, I mean, we're gonna probably start the reception about 10, 15 minutes late, but I think that'll be okay if it's not gonna run away or anything. So I have time for one question here, and then we'll open the floor up for discussion. Have the panelists please set up the table here, and then we can ask questions, anyone can ask any question, and any topic that has to do with the topic, obviously. We're not gonna start asking questions about, I don't know, yeah, trapfisher, but to any of them on any issue that has to do with multiple listening translation. Okay. Can we just throw it open? Yeah, but let's give you one question. Thank you all so much. This has been wonderful, but given your four questions that we don't know the answers to, what would a college of humanities look like if we started figuring out how to answer them? Could look like Anne Hiss. Could look like Monterey. Could. Could look like Leeds. I mean, there are many models that are financially, intellectually, professionally successful. The United States doesn't have anywhere near the training that that it needs. Right. We can give you numbers. We know the numbers, yeah. Sadly. All right, so then we'll open up the floor for discussion questions. Pass the microphone. And please, if you will, just say who the question is for, all of them would be for one person. I have a question for Professor Pym. When you said that the asymmetry is recuperable, I didn't quite follow what you had in mind there. So I was wondering if you could elaborate on the little things. I'll have to get this. No, it's simply that, to take the crime example, the text is commented on and repeated and the thought is that the GAVA guy thing is all over the place, even in my own works. It's just when you get back to the actual text, I hadn't paid attention to the phrase of the chain of marginal interpreters being recruited. I had assumed that this was a real encounter whereas crime admits in the text this situation doesn't exist in reality. It's also getting back, I think the Benjamin case is not to be taken the same way. I think it's grossly unfair to read his translations as anything like an illustration or application of the theoretical text. Since the two were written to be marked separately anyway. But it's an interesting exercise to take a question like that. What is the relation between magnetism, symmetrical or asymmetrical, to go down and interrogate the text closely in those terms? So recuperable. Hi there. I guess my question's for everybody on the panel. So we heard a little bit about the health industry, kind of public sector and I guess influence on culture. And I'm wondering what all of you think the role of machine translation now is with what kind of effects those are going to have on the different points you talked about. Thank you for your question. I think that machine translation like multilingualism and everything else is here to stay. And so the impact that we are seeing a lot is in how it's modifying the way we are teaching translation. It's one of those variables that comes and that now is asking of us to teach translation in a different way. So the role of the translator, we continue teaching but now the translator needs to also be equipped to deal with the fact that he may be doing a lot of post editing jobs, for example. It also impacts, and this is my take in issues of what gets translated and what doesn't and power and haxes and whatnot. And then the issue of the quality. So it impacts every issue because in quality we measure the quality of the output and then how many times are we able to do something with the quality of the output and how many times it goes out as is and it generally causes problems with the same sector of the population that doesn't need to have any more programs. I can pass the mic. Yeah, the technology is changing on this. You have many programs that kind of be peeled and recode and all of those programs tended to fail except perhaps a program that's translating weather predictions in Canada. But now Google's in the game and nobody ever thought that we'd have that kind of massive memory. And as more and more data goes in, the Google translate gets better and better. Right now it's still very primitive. You really can't use it. I guess it makes two or three mistakes every sentence. My students would turn that in and they'd fail. I mean, the post editing problem is humongous. But then you see a news report from the Middle East and then all of a sudden it's Google translated and it's out there and then they put it up on a wiki and then all of a sudden the post editing gets done by wiki up and each time it makes a pass at it it gets better and better and the speed in which some of these news reports are turning around and going international is quite remarkable. So we have to watch that technology and then the practice as well. So it's worth watching. I have an article on my website that argues that machine translation with translation memories and with collaborative networks that's feedback is going to change every aspect of translator's activity. And I believe the change is extremely positive. I can show data for most language pairs that it's more productive and higher quality for a translator to post edit than to translate for scratch. That's actually quite easy to demonstrate. The big step though is that we're going to have translation as a far more social activity carried out by non-professionals. We're going to have to adapt our mindset to work with the non-professionals and rejoice that a lot more material is going to get translated. A lot more people are going to have fun with translation. I really am very much looking forward to the future where Google translate and others get even more used. By my students too. Let's keep that microphone over there. And then we have one more question. First of all, thank you guys so much for being here. We're all really excited to hear you have to say it. My question stems from Dr. Angelelli's talk on medical interpretation specifically. During your research when you said that about 92% of hospitals are opting for the telephonic interpreting services, if I am correct and not number. During your research, when you were talking to administrators, if you were to ask them about their concerns about potential negative consequences due to poorer quality interpretation through telephonic services as opposed to using certified and higher qualified medical interpreters, what if any response did you get from those administrators? And that question also goes to the other guests, particularly Dr. Gensler in your work with the translation center at UMass Amherst with different, not just hospitals, but with different markets. Thank you. Okay, I want to take the question in different parts. What I said, I reported on a survey from 2006 where the participants in the service reported to have 92% of those use telephone interpreting, so then in terms of quality, I can report what happened in the ignore that I conducted where at the time it was the first hospital in the United States that was wired and offered interpreting on the speakerphone so that the healthcare provider and the patient were face-to-face in the room and the interpreter was acting remotely from a trailer on a telephone. So this, and then in the same time that hospital couldn't cover all the number of interactions that they needed with the 10 interpreters inside for Spanish, they would hire outside services from language line companies and whatnot that are offering interpreting on the phone. So I could observe the two parts when a staff interpreter would be interacting from a phone within the hospital and when an outside interpreter from a company would be called in. And your question is what, if I have asked managers about the quality, what their response was. And I was very surprised and maybe I was naive that the only concern this manager expressed was that quantity went up, productivity went up and that was great for him. So all of the newsletters that I was gathering from the hospital showing productivity going up, the numbers looked good. So when I sat down with transcripts and I sat down with interpreters because I wanted to get their perspective of what I was seeing going on to get the emic perspective from the researcher after so many months becoming the perspective or trying to become the perspective of absurd. The interpreters were explaining to me why certain things were happening. And when we were conferencing with the manager that was not seen as a problem. So in terms of quality, A, which is really surprising there was no quality control. As there is no quality control in many areas and in many hospitals today. And there is some quality control in companies offering telephonic interpreting. However, it's used mostly for training purposes than for really quality control. So I'm afraid I cannot answer your question with data but that's the situation that we have. Yeah, the data on this is all over the place. I have one MA thesis on telephone interpreting. For example, one of the questions that I asked the student of research was how much of a translation counter is visual and how much is audio. And the research is all over the place depending upon the scholar and the study and the group and the encounter and the language. It ranges, some scholars say that 10, 15% is visual and 80, 90, 89% is audio. You see other studies where it's 50, 50 and I've seen other studies where it's, and we just don't have the data and Professor Pym's work on eye tracking is we really have to get some more data on this. Hospitals tend to use this cost to quality assessment. And it's very different than what we use in the classroom in teaching. They have a very, very different assessment tool. We do provide it. There are some hospitals and healthcare service providers in upstate New York, New Hampshire, Maine that are so far away from any population group that they cannot get people up there. So we do it when it's better than nothing. But we do tell them it's the quality is down. I mean, if I hit Anthony hard on the arm, break his arm and the doctor asks him, does that hurt if I press here? And he's very macho about it. He says, no, it doesn't hurt at all. What? Everybody's grimacing, no, it doesn't hurt. If that, there's so much of any communication encounter that's visual that it really helps to have that person in the room. And Professor Angelo, he says, managing that interpreting encounter, seeing in the eyes when something is not understood and intervening to ensure the smooth flow of the communication. I may add one thing. What I noticed in the situation of the two monolingual interlocutors together in the room was that all of a sudden, the provider was becoming the eye of the interpreter in the sense that exactly what you just said, the patient would say, it hurts here, pointing at the right elbow, right? And so many times the provider is looking at the patient in the eye and it's looking at the patient. Many times the provider's writing notes. And so sometimes there were these instances when they here became like, it took two or three turns to be clarified or sometimes was missed. So that to me was a problem in the sense that now we are adding another layer of complexity as if it wasn't enough to have a person remote and one, but now to having ears and eyes that were not matching. Now I have to say that if you ask me about quality within my data comparing the, when the interpreter was face to face and one interpreter was on the phone, I couldn't say that the interpreters on the phone were of less quality, the interactions were less quality. But of course we are talking about staff interpreters trained in that way to do the job in that way. It's quite different from when somebody's jumping from the outside and being called in. Thank you. My question is for Dr. Pym. A few months ago, there was a public hearing in the federal government. All these agencies came and express or admitted that there's a deficiency in language capabilities within the federal government. And all of these agencies, the representatives pointed to the, looked at the representative from the Department of Education and said, we have this deficiency because we don't learn second languages at early stages. And today you said that people who learn languages at a later age, later time, they do, they're better translators, right? Did I understand that correctly? They do. I have no doubt. So I guess my question is, is that a new research? I mean, can you point me to that? Any reference or anything? When you write it, I'll sign it. Okay, I want. Is that the question? Yes, yes. I mean, I agree with you. And I would like to get some. But it's a very valuable point to make that language resources are all around us. In Australia, since you've picked up on Australia, in the 1990s, Valverde wrote a thing of language threats, which he pointed out that the Australian companies that were exporting to Southeast Asian childhood and kind of had employees, had people there who knew the languages, all we had to do was to get them to do the translating and interpreting, failed dismally. Because somebody on the shop floor doesn't have the language to the level required to sell the product. So it's true, there are resources all around us. And the point being made that a big university in this country has lots of languages among students is a very good one. But it's not generally true that having people who speak many languages since childhood is going to help you communicate and export and control the world's politics and economy and whatever else this country was to control. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Hello. This goes to everybody on the panel, but specifically coming from Dr. Angelie's presentation. And I was just wondering, do you see any opportunities of helping to better the education of interpreters in the field and to make better quality accessible to everybody? Thank you for your question. Plenty of opportunities. When the dean was asking the role of a College of Humanities, I think it is within the university where we can offer a variety of options for students who can be full-time, who can be part-time, who can only come on the weekends, who can only do things online. But as the program that Edwin was mentioning, if we are going to think in terms of healthcare and access to healthcare, then moving from traditional programs and crash courses and programs that we cannot really say that they are making any difference to teaching students ways of speaking within the healthcare. So how do doctors talk? Why do they do certain things? Teaching them knowledge of subject matter, teaching them about ethics and their responsibilities and teaching. So I can envision a curriculum where you go from practice to teaching. We need teachers of healthcare interpreters. So we need to teach practitioners. We need to teach teachers and we need to teach researchers. So we need students that will go on impact policy for minority speakers, access and whatnot. We need students that will become the teachers of medical interpreting in the university and community colleges and whatnot. And we need practitioners that are well-round formed so that they can cope with the activity that they have in hand. It's really, it's very difficult. We tend to think sometimes, and I don't want to generalize, but whole conference interpreting is so hard and medical interpreting, you know the terms and you can just do it. And no, because you move from field to field and you're dealing with big decisions. Sometimes they are life and death. Sometimes they are cultural misunderstanding. Sometimes they are ethical issues of organ donation and whatnot. And when is it appropriate to ask that question and according to what culture and without stereotyping that really giving the student an understanding of the words, the culture, the discourse community, the discourse community of patients and the discourse community of healthcare providers that are very different and for the interpreter to be able to navigate both. So yeah, there are tons of ways to improve what we are doing. We may have time for one or two questions. Good evening. I'd like to thank you all for being here. Not quite sure how I want to phrase this question. I worked as an over the phone interpreter for a couple of years. Really it seems to me the economy, everything in the world is tending towards privatization. Trying to make costs lower. We're trying to even in the medical field we see that everything's tending towards tendency to have cheaper healthcare doctors that take on. They're less personalized. Everything is tending towards that. Personally as I was working there I thought the quality of interpretation was deplorable. I guess really the question that I have for the panel is how do we instill that professionalism in interpretation? How do we go from a company that is willing to pay interpreters $11 an hour and provide a good enough product and we have companies that are willing to pay a cheaper price for a good enough product. How do we bridge that gap and get to a point where we can have more of a professional career and really kind of, I don't know, I'm not quite sure how what I'm trying to ask but I think you get the idea. And then I'll pass it on to you both. This is a tough question and it's not because I'm avoiding answering it but let me, I'll put it cold first and then we'll take it from there. We all have teeth, we are not all dentists. Or we all have hands, we are not all dentists. I've worked for a long period of time with medical interpreters and I've seen medical interpreters that have had no education in medical interpreting that wasn't available, had high school and had doctors in their own country and they range in how they perform. Some were doing great jobs, some were not. The problem is if we don't invest in education but at the same time the education is not available. So we first try to make it available and then invest in the education so that we can recall professions because what I see is a lot of individuals who are doing their best and they really want to help but their resources are limited and then we see them interacting with an industry where quality is not the main concern or in some senses it is a concern but it's not the main, the main one is cost. If we can make it efficient and work. I followed this issue in Spain and in Great Britain when all of a sudden the, for example, interpreting in the courts was through a process of bidding was given to one company and that one company was not watching quality so it would on the bid have interpreters with credentials but then the jobs would be done by different types of interpreters and the ones that were charging less would be the ones that got more jobs. So it is a problem that I would say let's not qualify it simple to answer easy or difficult. It can be done but it requires that we look at all of those areas. I would not like to put the burden on medical interpreters have to go through college of four years or six years or at the same time if we want to be called professionals then what do we do? At the same time when we exit college and we get jobs that are paid well we feel that we have made a good investment and if we exit college and we continue to be paid 20 or 25 dollars now which is not the case for all the students please don't get me wrong and even my students at San Diego State sometimes are entering their courses taking three jobs and they continue in this economy when they graduate with those same three jobs until they find a job that is going to be better for them. So it is not a simple question. I think it can be done but I think it requires effort on all of the players. The players involved, the hospitals need to recognize that they cannot give the job to an interpreter who's not professional but then I will ask the question what does it mean to be professional? And in this country it's hard to answer because we have degrees for certain professions that make them a profession and for others we don't and I don't want to leave the conference thinking that interpreting or translation is one thing that can be done without education because it's not true. We do have examples of wonderful translators and interpreters who have not had an education but they are not, they are just outliers they are exceptions but we do have successful stories of many, many graduates in programs or so however you can access an education that will let you go and say this is how I can compete in the market because I think we can tackle it that way my heart is in education I don't think we can continue just hatching it I think we need to provide that and for people to be able to go through the education as I said in many flexible ways so that they can be respected in the field and have the, be paid what they need and deserve to be paid. One more, one more. Thanks to all of you for being here and answering our questions. I want to go on with the education issue Claudia is so passionate about as I am I think and that's why I like her work so much. I have a question, my question is a big issue in translator and interpreter training is having success in that world-rounded education that we feel compelled to provide, right? Often that question has been, I have to put it, or articulated around the idea that entrance exams to translator and interpreter trainings are the problem or what we should be tackling in terms of literacy, general literacy proficiency and language, foreign language proficiency. I guess my question is pretty simple what do you think of that? Because of course reality often shows that most of us who are translator instructors are just stuck with no entrance requirements and I don't know if stuck is the question and I guess that is my question. Great question, great question. I don't know. Entry exams, yes and no. First of all, what do entrance exams measure? That would be my question. Second, what is a population? For example, I work with Chinese and Hmong population when I was working on the California Endowment exams for medical interpreting and had we required a written exam? First of all, I have a problem when we are requiring a written exam for interpreters and it's not because I'm here saying interpreters can all be literate. I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is, let's look at what the reality of the field takes. They need to read, but they don't necessarily need to write. So maybe an essay would not be an adequate measure of an entrance exam. Maybe it would tell you that it correlates really highly with other things, but there are languages where we don't have that entrance, for example, that possibility of making an entrance exam. I think that we have seen in translation and interpreting courses interpreters as well as in language courses, as Professor Collina was mentioning before, the heritage speakers, they come in different ranges of literacy, right, in terms of possibilities and we learn how to work with them and we learn to teach them a specific course in academic Spanish and academic English so we improve their register. So I can imagine, rather than saying no, I can imagine we measure the things that we need correlate the better with the possibility of succeeding in their career and some of those have already been done for conference interpreting or for translation. I'm not arguing that those are the only ones or that we could even copy the same ones for healthcare interpreting or for teaching, but I think that when we are talking about teaching and we look at the diversity of the population that could become community interpreters, for example, I would argue that we need to expand the way in which we have thought of entry exams so that we get, for example, in the case of healthcare interpreters in the Hmong Chinese community and even the Spanish register was a big thing that hasn't been measured before, but if I send an interpreter to a hospital and the patient would say in Spanish, me chopiaron la lita, okay, me chopiaron la lita and that patient, that interpreter has not been exposed to rural Spanish and to using animal body parts to equate to human being body parts because that's how we talk at home, for example, in a rural community where the family went to school up to second grade, for example, we need the knowledge of that atterance too to be able to interpret that. So sometimes I run one experiment so I cannot talk and generalize anything, but using nurses as interpreters who have been educated in the US from Spanish textbooks, so in the classroom, they learn Spanish in the classroom and then heritage speakers that would not range in the same register and they were doing equally good and many times the nurse would not understand what the patient was saying. So it's a tricky one, but we need entry exams. I'm not sure that I would measure accuracy only languages necessary to say that it's a prerequisite for translation interpreting. I'm not sure, I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying we continue to develop language when we are teaching translation interpreting. So because it's a fact, we may want to kill each other and say, no, you need to be fully bilingual. First of all, what is fully bilingual? Right? Because I'm sorry. Okay, I think in about, oh, I'm going to say it. I'm upset with my colleagues, my academic colleagues, particularly in Spain, where I do some work, who criticize the lack of justice around us, who criticize the company that in Spain took over justice interpreting, and then in Britain they made the same mistake on April Fool's Day in 2011. And you sit back, it's for us to do something to improve the situation from the training institutions. Going and getting laws done is vital work. I mean, it's a question of rights, get it on the law books and make the context do it. And then it's a question of providing training at the level where it's needed. Strokes for folks. It might be a one week course or a weekend course, or whenever you can get these people in or wherever you can get out to them. But it's not good enough to sit back and be an armchair activist and lament the lack of justice. It's for us to get out there and do something about it. Thank you. Alrighty, well, I think we've very clearly belied the local folklore that would have it that this is dead day. Okay. It's feeling much alive and kicking day. Thank you all for coming. I have a quick favorite.