 WELCOME, ANALOHA. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today, my guest is Lieutenant Governor Doug Chin. We will discuss the recent events that have shaped the current political and social environment in Hawaii and the mainland United States, and Lieutenant Governor Chin's outlook for the future of our state and our nation. The last time Doug Chin was my guest on Law Across the Sea, he was Hawaii's Attorney General, and he was leading the litigation against President Trump's travel ban on predominantly Muslim countries. A lot has happened since then. Among other things, Doug Chin ran for Congress. He became Lieutenant Governor of the State of Hawaii after Sean Sotsui resigned. There were several notorious events that have highlighted divisions in America, and midterm elections became a battleground over the president's performance. In fact, it seems like every day there are new events that affect our country and our state. And I've asked Doug to come and talk to us about them. So Doug, welcome. Good to see you. Hi there, Mark. Thank you very much for having me on the show. You have had a remarkable few years here. Yes, it has been very eventful. And so I think I'll start with a non-controversial. Okay. What do you think of the midterm elections? Okay. Well, I'll talk about it first nationally and then locally. I mean, nationally, I think it's pretty obvious that you've gotten a lot more different pockets of the population that are engaged, that are really thinking about what's happening to the country, particularly when it comes to the younger generation, but I think also different minorities that are realizing that if they need to fight for the values that they believe in, then they have to make sure that they show up and vote. So by seeing the House get taken over to such a huge extent by the Democratic Party and then to see some of the close votes that took place, nonetheless, in so many other places, I think we are seeing a trend where people are really starting to sit up and take notice. Now let me just talk about Hawaii a little bit because I think one of the interesting things about for all of us living in Hawaii is that for so long, maybe this is just me, but for so long, you almost could feel a little bit disinterested in what was happening in federal government or in Washington, D.C., maybe just me. But I think that... I think that's an accurate feeling, yeah. But I think with everything that's happening and with the current president just saying as many things as he does in taking center stage on so many controversial issues that really go against, I think, what a lot of people here believe, it really has injected that same kind of concern that exists around the U.S. here and to Hawaii. Now maybe it doesn't show up so much in our local elections because the Democratic Party really has such a stronghold here. And so in many ways, Election Day in the state was probably fairly straightforward, especially once we got past the primaries. But I think overall, you have a lot of people who are not just thinking about what's happening right here in Honolulu or around the rest of the state, but also thinking about what's happening around the country because what's happening in the country, it impacts us as well. So you think there's been a turnout nationally of people that, well, okay, what are the concerns? What are the national concerns? What are the social and political issues that are affecting us in your opinion? Right. Well, actually, so I'll start with the one that's less emotional, but I think that is really important to people and that just has to do with healthcare and people's, just people getting adequate medical care. So I think one of the things that you saw was that there were a lot of red states, a lot of Republican states that are now very interested in either passing legislation that calls for greater government spending on healthcare, not less. And then really, you see within the Democratic Party a lot more talk about single payer coverage, healthcare for all. That's a very big trend that's taken place. It is social justice, but it's more just kind of the nuts and bolts of what's impacting us day after day. And it seems a bit of a change from the Republican position prior to the election where... Oh, yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think even in the last couple weeks, you saw a lot of Republican candidates having to backtrack on things that they'd said before and really say, no, we do care about people's pre-existing health conditions, which is a big deal, I think, for a lot of people because we all have pre-existing health conditions, frankly. I mean, I think once you open the door to saying you're not going to cover pre-existing health conditions, then bottom line, that's impacting all of us. So I think you had that. Social justice, I think that one of the things that I got very involved in, but I think got really exaggerated to a large degree, has to do with immigration. And I think that exaggerated, meaning that I think that the Republican Party and President Trump really tried to do as much as they could to really turn that into this very threatening kind of issue. I mean, everything that we were hearing about the migrant caravan coming towards Mexico and an invasion coming to the U.S. and even as we speak, 15,000 troops being deployed out there. Of course, I haven't heard so much about it recently since the midterms. Right, right, right. So it seemed like a big scare tactic that's come up in order to be able to whip people up into, you know, whip people to go out and vote. Maybe on President Trump's side, it was to try to whip up more people in the red states to make sure that they voted. And I think it also got a lot of people who were thinking that they wanted to support Democratic principles to vote as well. And I think that you saw that in the results of the election. And so is our country divided? I mean, are we, is that what's happening or in your opinion? Yeah, I think so. And I'm saying that just based upon my own, like even my own first-hand experience, that I think you really see this trend away from people saying, OK, let's be in the center, let's be in Middle Road, let's try to be moderate in things to, frankly, just a lot of push towards the extreme ends as a way to be able to galvanize people for their support or to get people to vote. You know, I mean, I think that's actually a really interesting comment on, I think, you know, other people later on in our futures will look back at 2018 and just this decade and just see how much just populism and kind of appeals to emotion and to fears and to anger is really what has driven a lot of people to take very extreme positions in how they view things. The last time we were here talking, you were the Attorney General of the State of Hawaii and we talked about the Muslim band then and you were leading the litigation against it. And what happened on that case? What came out of it? What is your involvement in that case meant to you? Sure. U.S. Supreme Court came back with a 5-4 decision that basically favored President Trump's decision to be able to issue the executive order that banned people from these Muslim-majority nations. And essentially, and people might dispute, other people on the other side might dispute how I'm just characterizing that, but bottom line, the five-person majority pre-Cavanaugh, I should say, the five-person majority really gave a lot of deference to the president's ability to be able to play in the immigration space, which is, you know, it says a lot about where we're at right now. But in the meantime, you had a four-person dissent that wrote, in my opinion, a very compelling dissent. I truly believe that people are going to, again, look back on this time and say that this was a wrong decision, that when the writing was clearly on the wall that we were doing something that was very discriminatory. What does the majority decision allow? I mean, what does it specifically allow now, at this point in time? Well, it gives the president a lot of deference in terms of his ability to be able to ban people from entering the U.S. if he wants to, to the point that it overlooked a lot of what I think to many of us, including myself, what a lot of us looked at as just blatant discrimination. And so bottom line, you always had that balance. I think I might have described that the last time on the show, you're kind of balancing out what's the president's powers to be able to, you know, so-called protect our national security versus what's the Constitution say about discriminating against people. And clearly, the five people on the majority, they weighed it in favor of the president's powers. When I think a lot of us would say, look, you got to check the president and what they're able to do. So there you go. And it gives the president a lot of leeway, it sounds like. Sure. Did anything positive come out of that case for you, you know, personally and professionally and on the law? Right. Well, okay, if I take it philosophically and just think about that, I think one of the greatest blessings about being able to be part of this case and just being able to see all the people who are involved with it is just to see how much attention has been placed on really our faulty immigration laws and the fact that we really all need to be doing a better job of being able to pass laws either through Congress or, well, really through Congress. But we also need to be electing executives like the president who are going to be able to really have a clear vision of what it means to be an American in the next generation. And I think what we have right now, in my opinion, is a president and administration that's very close, that I'm just going to say that that really appeals to kind of a nationalist mentality that favors one race over other races. And I think that's kind of dangerous, but I think the better value that many of us stand for is one that is inclusive and that really believes in the value of immigrants and what they can actually add to and bring to the complexity of the great national fabric that we call the United States. And so I think that's where the battle line is going to be drawn. So when I look at it from the long view, I mean, I think that immigration laws, I think even, you know, like mutual colleagues of ours will say that's always been problematic throughout U.S. history. It always has. Right. Right. Right. Repeatedly. Repeatedly. It's, you know, and so you're always going to have that kind of, you know, policy decision of, you know, how do we treat people who are coming in from other parts of the world and also how do we protect our national security, frankly, just in fairness? I mean, how do we make sure that we're taking care of all of those things? So we need a balance. We do. Oh, of course, of course. And so, you know, I think closing the borders, I think, you know, making statements that either dehumanize people who are coming from other countries or denigrates them or makes them seem like they're less than human. I just think all of those things are just very dangerous for the U.S. and dangerous for all of us who are minorities who've had to live through discrimination. Well, we're all kind of minorities in a way, especially here in Hawaii. Now, before we take our break, we have about a minute left. What is the reaction that you felt when you've gone out over to the mainland and people say, hey, I think that's the guy that was leading this fight? Yeah, yeah. You get pros and cons. So overall, I think what happens is that I think if people disagree with me, they probably keep it to themselves. I mean, I've got to be honest, I don't think I've actually had that much criticism other than maybe, you know, people who write anonymously or write on social media or say something. But if you're asking me what do people say to my face, the vast majority is, I mean, wherever I've gone through the country, it's been really just very encouraging. And to me, even losing and losing the case, you know, as it turns out, to me, it just really encouraged me to see how many people were actually galvanized because of this case and are really now caring about the issue and caring about immigration. So I hear you saying, and maybe it was the start of something. Yeah. Maybe pushed a button, and now we're seeing a lot of the reaction. Right. Or an example of, I think, the long fight for social justice, which is it's constantly this. It's constantly you're pushing up against an edge. There's a little bit of a pushback, but it's not as bad as before, and progress continues that way. So to me, I take encouragement from that. And I hear you saying it's a long fight. It is. It's a long fight. And so, okay, we're going to take a short break right now and come back, and we'll ask a few more questions. And I want to talk a little bit about Hawaii, too. Okay, great. All right. Thank you. So we'll be right back with Lieutenant Governor Doug Chen. Aloha. I am Howard Wigg. I am the proud host of Cold Green for Think Tecawaii. I appear every other Monday at three, and I have really, really exciting guests on the exciting topic of energy efficiency. Hope to see you there. Hi. I'm Ethan Allen, host on Think Tecawaii of Pacific Partnerships in Education. Every other Tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m., I hope you'll join us as we explore the value, the accomplishments, and the challenges of education here in the Pacific Islands. We are back with Lieutenant Governor Doug Chen, and we are talking about recent developments in the law, in society, in politics, and Doug Chen, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for talking with us and being very open about your feelings and your opinions, and that's fine. There's been a lot of things that have happened in the last few months. We had an assassination of Mr. Koshogi, and we've had pipe bombs sent to Democrats, and we've had some people in a synagogue killed because they were Jews, and there's been criticism somewhat of the president about that. What do those events tell you, and does the president have any responsibilities for that? Is freedom a speech? You can say whatever you want. Right, right. Sure. Sure. What are your thoughts on all of that? Of course, the president can say whatever he wants. It is a free speech. I look at it more as a leadership issue. Everything I was ever taught growing up, whether it was from my parents or professors or mentors, is really leadership starts at the top, and it really starts with being able to set a tone that impacts everybody who's underneath you, essentially. But I think for the person who is the leader of the free world, I mean, whenever you have tragic events like this, it's very important to be able to set the right tone, to be able to have words, sincere words of healing, words of unity, and ones that are able to bring people together. And I think what's difficult is that, I think now in today's age, especially, you saw it not just from the president, but then even from people who are running in other elections around the country, is that there's a lot less taking responsibility for things and a lot more just pushing back and just snarking back at the other side, which is people will say with loss of civility, but I think that's a genuine problem because I think what it does is it then starts having a rhetoric that starts appealing to fringe groups and emotional people who are going to be able to behave in violent ways that have resulted in what we've seen. Do you think that encourages them to take action? Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's been identified is a lot of, we always call it dog whistles, just a lot of statements that are made that appeal to a certain kind of rhetoric that previously you never heard a president talk about. So when the president refers to people who are coming from Mexico or Central America, as people, every single one of them is a criminal, there could be Middle Easterners and amongst them, there could be terrorists that are in front of them. That's not really what's in this group of people that are making their way to the U.S., but just by saying things like that, I think it appeals to a lot of the conspiracy theorists out there, the people who feel very galvanized then to take action. And unfortunately there's people who take action in violent ways. And do those actions epitomize what's happening in the United States? Are they examples of the divisions in our country? Oh yeah, I mean I think that's a very serious sign of what we see happening right now. And I think all of us, any of us who are in public service, that's actually a big challenge that all of us have to face. It's funny because I will feel that temptation now where you hear this, you hear if the president is going to push back and say something, I mean here I've been taught to always be civil, always be classy, always just be fair and everything, I'll feel tempted to just say something that's very obnoxious back because you just think, well that's the only way that people are going to hear you and listen. That's not the right lesson and I resist that lesson because I just don't think it's not right. But I think that that's what, I feel it. So I can only imagine that other people who are also in public service also feel the same thing. OK, we're going to switch gears a little bit. What are the biggest issues facing Hawaii and how, you know, I'd like to learn a little bit about what you've done as Lieutenant Governor and what you've learned from being Lieutenant Governor. So first of all, what are we facing for the picture here in Hawaii? I felt like I learned a lot as Lieutenant Governor. It was such a great blessing to be able to serve in that capacity. Senator Josh Green, Dr. Josh Green is now coming in, he'll be taking office on December 3rd. I just saw him an hour ago and he's going to do a fantastic job. I was able to see this. I mean, I think we've got an economy that's booming right now that's largely based on tourism and our hotel industry. We need to be able to expand our economy to basically support two other legs of the stool, you know, we only have one leg of a stool right now. So one of them would be renewable energy and that's really seen by the governor's initiative to really try to make us 100% dependent on renewable energy by 2045. But I think the other thing that was important that I got involved with as Lieutenant Governor had to do with agriculture and really trying to restart our agriculture industry now that pineapples and bananas are no longer a feeder crop or a sustaining crop. And really it's agriculture that is sustainable, that is able to help us to be able to feed ourselves rather than rely upon shipping from the mainland. So the way I got involved with that was started with Chansitsui, my predecessor, but we were able to expand it to Oahu this year. It was this Farm to School initiative which was essentially bringing in fresh local produce, fresh local meat into the schools and having the schools start to use that to be able to feed the kids with their school lunches. Instead of relying upon canned food that came from the mainland that's been sitting on a shelf for several weeks that just gets dumped out into a tray, very unappetizing, has no educational connection to the land that's in front of us. And so the opportunities of being able to get the school, the Department of Education to shift towards relying upon fresh locally produced and local foods like red fruit or bananas or papaya, things like that, that makes such a huge difference in terms of being able to be more nutritional but also teaching the kids that what they're eating is something that was grown here, that they've grown here and I think that's a very special connection. Now, I also read that you were in charge of developing a plan for Mauna Kea and there has been protests up there and I think we see both sides of that and what's going to happen there? What are the plans and how would you like to see that develop and work out? So I think the biggest thing that happened in the last couple weeks is that the Hawaii Supreme Court has now ruled that and I think that that was something that people were really waiting for whether it's people who were against building a telescope on Mauna Kea or whether it's the people who were supporting the building of the telescope and the commissioning of the other ones in order to make way for this one. So I think what's happened is the Hawaii Supreme Court has ruled that the permit can go forward and so with that this is an opportunity for the state to and frankly for the Hawaii Island to be able to really be able to move forward in terms of potentially building something that's going to make a big difference in terms of space exploration and build more STEM jobs that come into the state. So I have a little bit of a bias towards wanting to see the telescope being built but frankly I always knew that we needed to wait for the Hawaii Supreme Court to rule before we knew what would come next. Is there a way to bring people together? Is there a way that we can all appreciate each other's differences and yet still follow what the Supreme Court says? So I would say this, you know my own sense of it is that I think there are certain people who even with the Hawaii Supreme Court ruling the way that it has been that are still not going to be convinced. I just don't think they're going to change their mind and it's unfortunate but I also respect that. I think that that's the way things are and there's no forcing somebody to be able to change their mind on that issue but I think there is this very large middle group that I think had been sort of watching things from the sidelines that now over the years has been able to see well there's a lot of benefits that could be able to come from building this telescope in terms of bringing in more STEM jobs, being able to obviously encourage the exploration of the heavens which is something that is culturally significant I think not just for Hawaii but for the rest of the world and it's just a it's a great opportunity. So to me I think what you've had is the shift that I see is that I think there's going to be more people that are now favoring seeing that the telescope go forward. Could be wrong but I think that's probably the case. It's an ongoing issue that we'll deal with and I hear you saying that we'll have to talk about it and there may not be a way to change minds. We'll just have to work with work with it somehow. I think more minds have been changed. I don't think you'll ever get to a unanimous place and that's okay because that's that's kind of what Hawaii is all about is we've always had a large range of opinions on things. Okay we have one minute left. Okay. We've always seen you in the serious light. Oh, okay. Very serious. Yeah, yeah. What do you do for fun? Well last night I watched Crazy Rich Asians finally so that was a big thrill for me. I finally got to watch that. So that was great. So I like movies but I bet I also I go running a lot. That's probably what helps me to de-stress the most is just to be able to get out and go for a jog and and just enjoy nature and enjoy everything that that is so special about the island. Okay and you know we don't have time to ask about what you're going to do next but I guess we're out of time. We're out of time but maybe I can have you back sometime when you figure that out. Okay sounds good. And talk to us. That sounds like a good plan. About your your next role in life. Sure. All right. Okay. Thank you Lieutenant Governor Doug Chen. I appreciate you being here and sharing your your your opinions with all of us. All right. Aloha. Aloha. All right. Thank you. Goodbye.