 Efallai y Deyrnas Gwybod, mae'niantion hynny maes gweithio'n hynny, mae hynny'n gwybod fel'r ffyllwg. Mae hynny'n gwybod fel'r rydych chi'n olfa iechyd, fel hynny'n gwybod fel hynny. Mae'n dduud gan hynny iawn gwiaith y rhaid i'r parodydd y gwrthwyneud y f先ol, na'r cyrraeth i'r gyllid o'r newid y blaen i'r sydd meddwl yn y rhau, ac mae rhai'n gwybod fel hynny'n gwybod y frythfyrniadau yn rhaidd y cyfnodyd yn sicr mae'r f易 rydyn ni'n fiskodd ni'r gweithio pham ar y f jumod i yw'r gwaith? Felly, mae'r Rhindon ni'n robi'r gwaith! Gweithio'r chely dwarfodd wedi'u cael ei gweld i'r amser o'r cyffredin yn Sindiad ac Iedden Ysgwyr. Felly rydyn ni'n gweld i'r arddangos yw'r gwaith y pethwn o gyd? Mae'n fawr y gall, rydyn ni'n gwneud i'r ffugir? Rwy'n meddwl ran y ffugir, rydyn ni'n gwneud i'r ffugir. Rydym slywi rydyn ni'n cael rydyn am gwybodaeth. Mae'rthenau gyda gwybodaeth yn syniadol anhygoel a cymdeithasid am y dylai byd. Mae heb rhai awdurdod yma, ond rydyn ni'n olygu pob cyflomwys. Mynd i ddechrau'r aplyfaint rydym ni'n pobl hyn yn digon ni'n gwybod hyn a bwrdd o'r prymdeithasid a chyflosio maes anhygoel sy'n mynd i gylau cyflomwys. Rydym ni'n stymau a mynd i ddifesio hwnnw o'r cyflomwys. a we do that through the school of systems change amongst other avenues. We also use a lot of future tools and techniques because, as we just heard, we would agree the future isn't something that happens to us. There are multiple futures on offer. We do a lot of scenario work and our belief very much is if we can understand these possible futures then we can design today for the future that we want. So what I wanted to cover was a little bit about our changing world and I suspect we're all quite familiar with the messy complex nature of these trends so that bit is going to be really quick. I then wanted to just explain why at Forum we began to use the language of systems change as a response to this complexity and then I wanted to talk about collaboration as a means of putting together different parts of a system to solve specific challenges as a way of accelerating progress in that system. Is that right? There will be time for questions for the end but if going through this I say anything really outlandish or you desperately disagree with just put your hand up, it's fine. It sometimes happens. So our changing world, what we do at Forum through our future centre which is a digital platform where we're scanning for signals of change the whole time annually we produce a summary of where we think really interesting areas of dynamism are in the world around us by dynamism stuff that's moving really quickly and unpredictably and will shape our ability to drive sustainable development and this year our publication was the first time we brought together all of our futures work with our understanding of how to drive systems change and that understanding of course is evolving the whole time is not complete and it's just our best guess as to how we can drive transformational change right now. So this is on our website, you can download it. It talks about seven areas of change and I'll just go through a few of them today just to remind us of the sheer complexity and scale of the challenges that we face if we needed a reminder and why as Forum we think that this whole framing of systems is the way in which we can begin to manage and respond to this complexity. So this is very interesting in the space of just a year we've gone from dialogue which is yeah climate change is really important amongst senior decision makers particularly in government and in business too there is an emergency and there really is an emergency right now and I think it's incredible how quickly that understanding has begun to permeate into a broader civil society and so of course the first area we focused on at Forum is climate crisis and what is encouraging me right now is that we're beginning to understand the links between climate and health and biodiversity and beginning to solve for these issues together rather than viewing them as separate and distinct trends. What I think is also interesting is the way in which this whole conversation around plastics has gone from again the niche into the mainstream and certainly here in Europe legislative changes coming down the pipe the whole time which means I think we are very close to banning simple use plastics across certainly Europe it's happening in the US right now and arguably saving carrier bags isn't really going to drive the change that we want to see but as a way of engaging everyday citizens in some of these sustainability issues is helpful. I was in a meeting on Tuesday with the ex-head of DEFRA's sustainability policy and in the meeting someone from business said oh yeah this plastic thing you know why we're still focused on carrier bags it's just a distraction and the lady that used to run sustainability DEFRA said it's a gift people are having the conversation about plastics so let's use that energy and even though it's about straws or plastic bags let's use that energy and that awareness and have a bigger conversation that can drive change. Biodiversity in pre-fall so if the last 12 months has been a conversation about the climate emergency the next few months is going to be a conversation about biodiversity in the same way that the intergovernmental panel on climate change issued their start warning on climate change in October of last year we're going to get the very same set of messages on biodiversity this October and these stats are not great and even though the conversation has been around for a while in terms of our dependency on biodiversity there just seems to have been some unwillingness to accept the reality of that conversation. Nationalism, thank you for the call out to UK citizens I'm not feeling great at the moment I have to say feeling a little bit better now that our parliamentaries have woken up and done something but this trend driven by some really profound sustainable development issues inequality, lack of access to education is in a way making it so much harder to do what we need to do it's undermining our ability to govern internationally and we need to accept that this is happening and I realise that I need to stop moaning about Brexit and actually just concentrate even harder on the root causes why did this happen and how do we solve some of those root causes particularly around inequality and get really serious about that because unless we do that this is just going to become even more profound and it is a counter force to our ability to solve some of the world's issues the world's issues are not localised some of them are but the majority are not the on life, we talked about this this year because of the obvious trend around our reliance on digital but actually part of what's driven some of the nationalist surge is the whole story around fake news and the ability of quite radical voices to be heard quite quickly and I think there's a really interesting conversation about how do we harness this technology in a way that drives sustainability rather than perhaps undermines it and who owns the data and I just think we're beginning to understand that this is something that we haven't really thought properly about and perhaps we should and then the fifth trend I just wanted to call up is very deliberate because I think sometimes here in the UK and in Europe and in the US where I spend quite a bit of time I certainly have moments where I think we're getting close to a tipping point in dealing with some of these issues around consumerism and the fact that consumerism is driving all sorts of negative impacts in our economy but go to Asia and then you see the scale of the challenge the massive growth of economies in that part of the world the fact that shopping malls are going up the whole time and why shouldn't they in a way but I think if we are going to be serious about sustainable consumption and production we have to involve Asia in perhaps a different way and what's really exciting about what's happening in Asia is the possibility of leapfrogging a lot of the infrastructure a lot of the behaviours that have generated some of the sustainability challenges we're solving for today so let's not forget what's happening in Asia and let's understand how do we harness that dynamism actually to avoid some of the more negative consequences of development that we've seen here so there's a lot more clearly but that's just some of the flavour of the complexity that we're facing today and why at Forum we've gone from very much working historically solely in one of our relationships with government, with business, with philanthropy to thinking much more about a systems approach and Anna Burnie, my colleague, is talking this afternoon and she has this slide too, that's the only slide we have in common but we use this a lot in our work and it's not a new quote, it's Donella Meadows and I use this with senior board level directors and even today you hear people go yes, the world is really messy and complicated and yet we insist on bringing our linear framings, that engineering mindset to solve for these challenges and then wonder why we don't get to the root cause of the problem and so for me this quote is really important in saying actually yes, it is all messy, it is complicated it blows your mind in terms of complexity however, if we embrace that interconnectivity if we embrace that messiness, understand it better find those points of intervention and insistence and can drive catalytic change then actually we might, we just might begin to solve for some of these challenges so Great British saying, teaching grandmother to suck eggs I don't need to tell you what a system is but I included this because it gives you a sense of how I think about systems and how Forum also thinks about system which is very much as a living systems phrase now can anybody tell me what this is here? A dunebug? A dunebug? Nearly nearly, actually it's an impossible question books for sure it's a hella beetle and the reason I've got a picture of a hella beetle because it's my way of explaining systems so many many many years ago when I was a budding scientist my background is as an ecologist my PhD was looking at the effects of nitrogenous deposition on semi-natural ecosystems got that? basically pollution on sensitive ecosystems and the reason that I went into that study area was because here in the UK and particularly in Europe and particularly lowland Europe in the Netherlands heathlands, which are dominated by cilunia vulgaris given that wonderful purple flower particularly this time of year they were disappearing and being overtaken by grass which from a biodiversity point of view was a great news and the question was as to why is the heather disappearing and that was really the subject of my PhD and I spent three years in fields looking at heather beetles, measuring heathers then in big experimental facilities blasting heather with different dosages of nitrogen and what was actually happening is that ammonia from pig farms that were open pig farms was being emitted into the atmosphere falling down as nitrogen rich rain which was then fertilising, over fertilising the soil which was then making the heather really tasty for the heather beetles who then just snapped on the heather and then accelerated the transition which would happen anyway from heathland to grassland and it's my way of understanding systems and in this instance what we began to really understand is if we could solve for the ammonia emissions from the pig farms then we could stop the acceleration from heathland to grassland and my research along with plenty of others led to changing legislation and actually now the way that we farm outpigs I'm a vegetarian so in a way I don't really care but for those that do eat meat it was changed and actually we reduced the nitrogen in submissions and started to stabilise that system so for me it's just a great example of what we understand by systems in that all of these parts are interconnected and at any one point in time there's something happening in a system that's changing it and if we can understand what's driving that change in the system and harness that change then we can change the patterning of how that system develops and so for us at Forum that's why this notion of system it changes really powerful because if we think about our economy our society today it's just a record of our past decisions it's a record of our past actions and the systems around us the systems in environmental systems the economic systems they're in rapid flux right now systems are always changing as a room right now we're not seeing much change you're moving a little bit but in a moment the whole room will change when you go out to have your coffee break so the question then becomes if a system is constantly changing how do we then understand the ways in which that system is changing and use that understanding or a repatterning of that system that drives the future that we want and so that really is the theory of change behind a lot of the work we do at Forum is if we can understand the dynamism in parts of the food system in parts of the health system and understand what's driving that dynamism then particularly through collaboration perhaps we can alter the evolution of that system in a way that then underpins as opposed to undermines sustainable development are you with me so far? not that difficult really and you're all experts in this but this is kind of how we think about how we might design for solutions for sustainable development and critically for us it means focusing on stopping designing for incremental change which is far easier to deliver than transformational change and so in our work roughly our collaborations now come onto this we're looking for opportunities to drive transformational change and by transformational change I mean change that is often global but not always but can be global but for me quite critically it's catalytic so what's that one change we can engineer in a system that then drives change around it and for an example we are running actually we're coming to the end of running a new collaboration in the global tea industry as in a cup of tea the tea industry like many of the global commodity markets is not sustainable associated with very poor returns to small holders, a whole host of environmental and social challenges and in the tea industry what we're experimenting with right now is funding from DFID and with some corporate sponsorship is a new market mechanism for trading tea so I don't know if you knew this but I've done tea fact tea on the global market is usually traded sorry auction so when there's an oversupply of tea into the market the price of tea drops and that means that small holders and tea is predominantly still a small holder business the small holders don't get the price of production and so that then undermines their ability to live sustainably to invest and so on and so forth and so what we're experimenting with is a different market mechanism for trading tea a mechanism that guarantees a price for the tea much like the futures market but in a way that then allows a small holder a guaranteed rate of return and allows them to invest and that's a catalytic change because if that works then yes a small holders can invest in improving farming becoming climate resilient in access to education and so one small change in the market in this instance could drive further the catalytic impact and it's working we found out last week that actually the experiment is working in the auction houses of Nairobi which is great enough of that so back to transformational the other key attribute is that it's self sustaining and how many of you have engineered some change in a system around you be it a social system or your local environment where the change has begun to make itself felt and then it just disappeared thank you for that thank you very much I've had loads of experience of that we have created all sorts of innovations that forum with our partners and we're thinking this is great this is going to be really brilliant and then actually the inherent power of the system is that it swallows up that change so how do you design for change that's self sustaining it's hard but we don't I think ask ourselves that question enough so what are the conditions around that change intervention that needs to be true to allow that change to continue systems have inherent energy they will ping back to where they started and so self sustaining catalytic change becomes really important when designing for systems change so forum for the future and systems change this is our theory of change it is really simple we've had huge bust ups about this it's too simple it's too boiled down the original version had accounted 42 arrows on it our trustee said that is unintelligible fair enough but don't you understand how that bit connects to that bit that connects to that sorry we don't understand it and effectively what we're saying is that we convene collaborations we partner with individual organisations to drive their own strategic interventions we then inspire and equip leaders across all sectors of all ages to think and act systemically using our systems change tools our futures tools that then we hope drives progress on sustainability issues and builds the capacity of individuals and organisations to think and act for systems change and all of that we hope delivers this as a sustainable future that's it in a nutshell as you imagine it's much more complex than that but what's really great for us now we've simplified this actually even our own stuff understand it more and so when we're making decisions about what we do and what we don't do this is really helpful as a guide to help make those decisions now the multi-level perspective who's familiar with this gained quite a few of you this kind of sits underneath our theory of change and I know it has its origins in academia and I apologise if what I'm about to do now is to oversimplify it but actually we have found that this model is really useful both for us to understand at forum how we can design for change but also to explain to others how change happens and it's just been really powerful in all of our collaborations to help people understand their role in driving systems change and it also helps us understand our futures work better so historically we had our futures work we had our systems work and actually the MLP gives us a lens to talk about our futures work because we can say that there are a number of trends operating at that landscape level that are slow moving but are profound in their influence on the world around us so climate change, population change demographic change in the regime there are a number of trends such as change in legislation changes in reporting requirements that influence our day to day so if a family change the day to day and then there's always a bunch of weak signals in any futures exploration so signs of the future and you know a quote that we use a lot by William Gibson the science writer is the future is already here it's just not evenly distributed and so what we're looking for all the time are signs of the future that then if you can scale into the regime you can then begin to repatter the regime and so we talk about systems change being the moment where those landscape level pressures are really bearing down on our day to day operation often coupled with innovations that are scaling up from the niche but critically combined with individuals that want to do something differently and feel inspired to do something differently then you start to get a shift in the regime and the system changes and so our work is about understanding what are those big landscape level trends, how can we respond to them where are those innovations bubbling up from the niche and who are those people that really want to see something different how can we as forum work with them to start to shift systems the next slide is a bit much I apologise look at that we can share all of these afterwards but I use this because I'm going to come back to it because I want to share our collaborations map onto this but that model is really useful as a conceptual way of describing how systems change but my nine bubbles are more useful because they describe different strategies you can use in any subsystem or system to change that system and we've mapped them according to the different phases of system change so at the start-up phase of systems change you have to create a robust case for change we sometimes forget that we need to allow information to flow equitably so people can start to see that information and make decisions accordingly creating collaborations I'll come back to that that's where I'm going to take a deep dive creating new innovations often disruptive in their nature that is a sign that a system is beginning to change we then have the acceleration part of systems change where culture behaves, mindsets are shifting without that mindset shift in particular systems just won't change at all I've learnt that the hard way I've run numbers of projects where we've got really close to breakthroughs in terms of a new innovation a new way of doing things and it hasn't seen its way through because I forgot that actually people were approaching that experiment with the same mindset that they had before it's very sober at that I'm much more careful about this these days we then need to create the right incentives of business models and financing that's the bit at the moment everyone is struggling with because the current way the market is operating can often be counter to sustainable development and then as we start to move from that acceleration to stabilization of the new system we absolutely need the right policy frameworks we need new rules of the mainstream, new measures, new goals a new paradigm and we need to have enabled those innovations to scale so for us at forum for anything that we embark upon as a project that when we're designing we say ok which of these levers are we pulling and we as forum for example don't really pull that policy lever at all what are we pulling and then to the introductory marks who's pulling the other levers in the system and how can we work together with them between us we're not pockets of isolated practice actually we're all knowingly pulling these different levers and by knowing that we're pulling them we're creating additionality and we're increasing our chances of changing the system so this is just a way of mapping what's happening in a system and understanding the different strategies as distinct from leverage points which Anna's going to talk to you about this afternoon so deep diving into collaboration the reason why we focus so much on collaboration and forum is because we can see there's a huge amount of innovation out there and if I'm really honest I suspect we've got most of the solutions we need for big issues around climate change they're just not scaling and I like the analogy of Mr Evil there is a load of good practice going out there but it's not joined up and so collaboration for me personally is such a brilliant way of providing a safe space in a system where as forum we are agnostic about standards, we're agnostic about the polarising issues all we care about is accelerating progress towards sustainable development collaborations when we can provide a safe space in a system to bring all these different actors together to invite them to build their trust to share what they're doing and actually you suddenly get a situation where these individual pursuits are now more than the sum of their individual parts and that's why for me collaboration is so important it's also a lot easier to say than actually do and so what I'm going to share with you is how we approach collaboration probably the more interesting bit is what I've learnt along the way and the bumps in the road have been there so the process always a process of forum we are process key that's not a word but we love process and so essentially all of our collaborations in some way shape or form follow this process so confirming the need, is there a problem that needs to be solved and here importantly there's a kind of question underneath that is there a problem that needs to be solved is someone else already solving that problem if the answer is yes go and talk to them because what I really see happen is a world of a thousand collaborations and so when collaborations reach that point where changes needed to happen and where the inherent resistance in any system kicks in we give up sometimes because it gets really hard and so we're going to start something new I think there are too many collaborations and we need to be really sure do we need to start something new or can we go and work with someone else that's already got something and supercharge it and actually work with them to make it more effective so confirm the need convene the partners bring together the initial partners for whom this is a burning issue scope and diagnose critically ask the right question so we have a collaboration looking at sustainable cotton and the first question that people came to us with was well is fair trade cotton better than organic cotton better than better cotton initiative cotton better than Ud's cotton there are at least 20 different cotton standards and we said that with all due respect we don't think that's the right question the right question is how can we accelerate sustainable cotton so that it becomes normal standards are a way of doing that but actually how do we make sustainable cotton the norm so that conventional cotton production with all of its negative social and environmental impacts becomes a thing of the past scope and diagnosis is where we use the new systems mapping but not always but we try and make sure we're asking the right question and the question is at the right level of the system explore emerging futures I've talked to you already about why we use scenarios a brilliant way of changing mindsets sometimes people find it really hard to reimagine their organisation or reimagine their products and services particularly in business where the pressure is on short term quarterly returns and everyone is running to stand still but putting someone into the future saying this is what it could be like just imagine then their mindset begins to shift usually we then align around a vision what good looks like we then create strategies to live with that vision and then we begin to take collective action so at stage 7 that's often when collaborations begin to falter because you're asking people to do things differently asking for different investment patterns and if that collective action then begins to work we've really learnt and I've learnt this the hard way step 8 it's really obvious but we don't do it enough so we sometimes think great we have got innovations coming to market we have got new social structures emerging this collaboration has been successful we can point to change in the system but back to self-sustaining point if there isn't a deliberate mechanism in place to keep that change moving forward then it may disappear so maintaining momentum becomes really important so what have I learnt along the way governance for any collaboration critical who has decision making rights who has advisory rights what is the role of the funder versus the role of the advisor takes time to establish this can cause arguments at the very beginning of a collaboration but better to have those arguments at that point in the process understand power influence and beneficiaries who has the power in the system who has the influence they may be completely different from the beneficiaries of people we're solving the problem with so for example in the agricultural space a lot of the collaborations we see where's the farmer they're not at the table and so without cotton project we deliberately bought the farmer voice into the collaboration so be really clear who is the beneficiary of the system change we're designing for and have they got a voice because often in these collaborations there are some unheard voices that never make it through so really understand power influence beneficiaries and make sure there's a space for everybody to contribute expect resistance one of my career highlights was being threatened with prison which came through one of our early collaborations in the dairy sector here in the UK dairy farming in the UK is a bit miserable it's a bit better now I think we did create some change there but we were suggesting a completely different market mechanism for dairy farming and that ran counter to what the trade associations wanted and actually the head of the trade association said this is anti competitive you could end up in prison for breaching EU competition law I said okay I just want you to agree to this vision but expect resistance and come up with strategies to deal with resistance and also acknowledge that a bit like Greta's tweets at the moment if someone's actually criticising the way I look they've run out of things to say and so if someone is really shouting at you I now understand that it's a sign of success it means they've understood I'm serious, we're serious and something's about to change and then if they start to get on top then I'm really brilliant, we're close so patience is totally needed in these situations and brilliant process is needed sometimes we try so hard to get the right people in the room we're delighted we have the system in the room and then there's no process and then the system leaves the room and nothing changes I think the power of a really great process encourage ego free zones this is a real issue in collaborations and often you find that one of the biggest barriers to effective collaborations is people are not willing to let go of their model, their process and so that's a game where futures becomes really powerful because aligning around a vision of what good looks like allows you to put your ego to one side to some extent language really matters sustainable development, systems change system innovation, it is jargon soup and when you're talking to decision makers in a bank talking to decision makers in government you can see them going I really have no idea what they're talking about and so being really clear and where you can using plain English please it's a barrier our language can be a barrier and then finally I think you said at the beginning it's all about humans these collaborative processes they work or they fail dependent on how much trust you've bought in the process and if there's no trust in a collaboration it's not going to go anywhere and so ultimately these collaborations about that human to human contact and that human to human understanding in my humble opinion so just finishing up then in terms of kind of the shifts that we need to think about as we move from designing for incremental small change to designing for systems change is we need to understand our system we need to move from short term incremental solutions to sets of interventions and experiments based on shared diagnosis of what needs to change working with the system and then moving from linear plans towards definitive goals which is kind of where everyone likes to be to actually we've just got a few hypotheses that we want to test here so we think that this market mechanism will work but maybe it won't so let's test it and then moving from certainty and order which humans like quite a lot to actually being a bit more comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty so does any of this actually change systems so it's all very well but as Sally have you actually you know isn't there any change you can point to and this was probably for me when I pulled this together I haven't given quite this to what we thought so this is for you today I was like oh god does it really add up to anything so back to my bubbles I've decided that it does work to a point and some of the examples I've got here so creating a robust for change we did a project eight years ago in sustainable tourism tourism 2023 you can see we also need a branding expert our projects are a thing so commodity cotton dairy tourism and a future date so quite consistent when I was doing this I said but we really need to think differently about how we do things so tourism 2023 almost 10 years ago you might have heard on Tuesday Prince Harry launched a new sustainable tourism initiative in Amsterdam part of the reason the Royal Foundation got interested in this was the work we did so long ago where we made a case for change and similarly with dairy 2020 I mentioned my prison experience not but actually that was 10 years ago and if we look now at the UK dairy sector the contracting mechanism has actually changed and that's not down to us as we all know system change it's not linear, it's not causal it's not temporal but I think we've done a good job in some systems around creating the case for change equitable flows of information as a means of understanding how to shift systems we have an amazing project run from our Singapore office decent rural living initiative working with palm oil growth in Indonesia focusing particularly on labour rights for women palm oil workers and that project is providing equitable information right now and it's beginning to shift how the palm oil system is operating in Indonesia innovation we have a big collaboration called the protein challenge where we're working with all sorts of actors in the global protein system to solve for the issue and access to protein for a growing population we have innovated new ways of animal feed we've innovated new plant-based proteins diet again not on our own but that I think has helped create a much greater awareness of how plant-based proteins can be part of our diet I talked about cotton with cotton 2040 right now see the same naming typology we have got a big grant application into a different business model for sustainable cotton which I think could be important and then the one project that we have actually gone as far as influencing policy was here in the UK a community energy project where we actually influenced government legislation and our community energy here in the UK is scaling beauty and health care accelerator just an example of the strategy around rules, measures and standards a piece of work that we did in the US was all of the big brands so L'Oreal, Unity the Procter and Gamble again I got shouted at in this project but not threatened with prison which was quite a relief because actually the US system is not quite like the European system but the reason for being shouted at was because we said there needs to be a different way of putting ingredients into these products some of the ingredients you are putting in products that you are putting on your skin in the US are chemicals in them that are illegal in Europe they need to come out of the everyday products and so that project was all about redefining the ingredients of everyday products and now it has been rolled out through the entire industry so my conclusion is that I can point to changes in systems and subsystems my overarching conclusion is that's okay but it's not enough if we really have got 10 years to kind of repatter and rewire our systems then this is okay but not sufficient so for me it's all about the question I'm carrying is how do we accelerate this and then oh we know this you can't change systems but what I wanted to share with you was my three practises because I have changed my approach to how I go about what I do and my everyday life and I think I'd bore them down to three questions I asked myself the whole time so am I locking in an unsustainable system and perpetuating the status quo because if I'm really honest and look back at the work I did 20 years ago in business on sustainability for a time I was just locking in the existing system I put in CSR policies locking in the way in which that business operated and I realised that that may have slowed down the pace of change and that's hard but it means that I carry this question as a live question with me the whole time because what I want to be doing is to create a new way of organising and my second question that I'm asking myself in terms of designing change interventions am I designing for transformational change is it catalytic will it be self-sustaining and our projects are getting better as a result because I can design for incremental change but that's not going to be enough and then finally have I left my ego at the door and this is tough because I'm sitting often in meetings where I'm thinking well what I think is what does the system need what does the world need and it might not be what I think I need but actually what has to come first is designing for designing for a sustainable world and my ego needs to come second very much