 This topic is something I would was hoping to do kind of as more of an interactive discussion as well So but this room is very long So if anyone wants to kind of just move forward a little bit that would be good otherwise, we'll just Make do with what we got so This is a freelancers guide to handling difficult clients I'm Damon Schopen. I've been a web developer for 11 years now. I started portlight technology for years ago I came from you know the corporate environment over to starting a business And we develop custom web apps and do integrations and as you can see I'm from Wisconsin so So often when you're freelancing you get a phone call from a potential customer and It's really exciting you get on the phone with them you talk to them for I don't know maybe an hour or so planning everything out You quickly go ahead and agree on the deal you agree on the project and Then after you kind of hang up the phone you kind of have like this feeling in your stomach like hmm Something doesn't feel quite right with this project but you get going you get coding or building or designing or whatever you do and Just start working on the project because you're super excited to be Having a new client a new project The money is coming in life is good and then a few days go by and You notice there's like more and more requests from the customer that keep piling in and coming in and showing up and Then one Friday afternoon you get a phone call from a customer and they're like Yeah, we're gonna launch it on Monday or we're gonna finish it on Monday, right? We're ready to go we've got this big event we're doing or a product launch or whatever the case may be and At that point you get this sinking feeling in your stomach and you're going there is no way we'll finish this project by Monday and You're like alright. I got to work all weekend, but it's probably still not gonna get done and Meanwhile the client is excited because they don't you know grasp yet that it's not possible to be done they think the project is easy, right because Everybody's got a website or everybody's got a logo or Yeah, yeah exactly, you know, right? It's just HTML. It's super easy But you know after the weekend is over you come to just dread the day you met that client and You feel terrible about the project and you really you know wanted to do your best But of course you didn't meet the deadline the clients frustrated. You're frustrated when the phone rings and it's them You know you want to pick it up you dread every email that comes in and everybody has a bad experience So most freelancers, you know, they're great with their craft and what they do, you know I certainly was when I left the corporate world but Don't have the experience with the business side of things which can be just as important or even more important in a lot of cases So as I said, I want to kind of make this an open Discussion here because I think this group as a whole probably has a lot to offer each other as well So I just kind of wanted to get a sense first of all who's out in the audience How many of you are freelancers currently if you want to raise your hand? About half the room and how many of you have been doing it for more than two years More than five years. All right, cool. We've got some experts in the audience here today And how many of you want to get into freelancing or starting a business? Got a few that's great Any other reasons you're here that I haven't covered? All right Great So as we kind of talk through some of these topics Feel free to just shout out and I'll try to repeat it back for the camera and or raise your hand But I think there's a wealth of knowledge here that we can all share with each other. So You know Compared to the scenario I just portrayed Where you just kind of rush into the project and you're going I know I did that a lot especially when I first started out Some of you can probably relate to that as well But one thing that is key is to interview the client You know you always think of your interviewing for a job or the customer is interviewing you But you should also interview the client as well and have a clear process for that When you interview a client one of the processes I have and maybe some of the people who want to share theirs Would be though is When I get a prospective client that reaches out to me or a referral or an email, you know I jump on it and get back to them right away But what I do is I schedule just a quick 15 20 minute phone call first even if they're like right down the street Because that saves your time and their time to just make sure that you know what they're looking for is what you can provide and What you want to do Will serve them well and within that short 15 20 minute conversation you can at least kind of get a baseline, you know and go For me for example, we build software. So if someone's saying well, I want like a brochure style website I would say you know, that's not really in our wheelhouse But I've got these great other people that I can refer to you, you know, and that's kind of turns you almost into a Kind of point of contact that someone can go to any time and be you know Hey, you know someone who can do this, you know, someone who can do that and you're always kind of on their mind So when the right project comes you're the natural thought there and Then what I do is Have subsequent meetings with them even before getting a proposal One to build trust to you know get deeper into it to really make sure That this project is going to be something that we're a good fit for And that the client has the right budget for the project as well in the right expectations You know very often you have clients who might come to you that just want to price instantly, you know, and I'm not able to give you a price instantly. I can probably give you a price range, you know just to make sure we're kind of in the same ballpark, but It's like building a house, right? Do you want a three bedroom house? Do you want a two bedroom house? Do you want high-end appliances? Do you want stuff from Ikea? You know, I mean whatever you need is great, but that can vary pricing quite a bit So people who are generally looking for a price are just kind of tire kickers in my experience Trying to get you know either a quick price to go against someone else, you know Be like hey, they said they could do it for half of what you can do kind of a thing But yeah, I don't know does anyone else have any Experiences they'd want to share with that. Yeah I just inflate it by two or three times Oh, there you go, I mean, yep, seriously. Wow, just raise the price. Yeah Oftentimes I do that because I see them as one of those problem lines down the line Yeah, you know those will self-select out because they know that hey the other guy can do it Right, right Okay And people Yeah Right See what happens because you can always back up you can always come back down and go well Absolutely Oh, yeah That's kind of why I like to give a range as well because you know you can be like well You know on the high side we could be here, but you know, we could also be more on this low side We'll probably land in the middle, but you know, let's figure that out. So you have a solid price To move forward with but yeah So once you do do that initial interaction interview and figure out that they're a good fit It's not just quick off to the races, you know, you want to plan out and make sure that You clearly scope and figure out what the project all is going to involve, you know If it's a website, you know, roughly at least how many pages, you know Or is this going to be like a quick five page thing or do they have like an entire product catalog of a thousand products that need To go on this website Just to kind of get yourself narrowed down and having the time, you know Like I think like Rachel was talking about in the prior talk having those conversations are really important So you can drill down and dig into what their true need is and what they're really looking for Hey, I need a website while everybody needs a website, but what do you really want to do with it? You know, are you looking to get leads? Are you looking to sell products? You know, what is the purpose of the website? You want to make sure that you have a contract How many of you have a contract that you use with your clients? All right, that's pretty good not as many hands as there were freelancers though So definitely do invest in that contract You know, it is a little bit of an investment But it's worth it because you know, it is not just for the point of You know, say things go horribly wrong and you have to go to court. I mean, that's worst case scenario You know, the contract can outline, you know, a lot of your Key processes, you know, what is the payment schedule going to be? What are deliverables going to be? You know, what's included in this project? So Um, it's clear on both sides, you know Are you just building a logo or are you building an entire website? You know, or did they think the logo was just going to be included? So Make sure you have a contract and get that signed before you start A lot of this too is education Um, I find especially in the software and web world, you know, most customers that I work with They're not that tech savvy, right? I mean, and nor do they need to be right? That's why they're coming to us as a freelancer to do this work. So A lot of it is educating, you know, customer says I want 50 main menu items on the top of their site, right? You would probably say well You could do that, but here's some good reasons why people aren't going to find what they're looking for, you know So you are an authority and an expert and um, those valuable insights that you offer are Valuable and it's going to be helping them to be successful Um, having a solid process as well um How many of you have a process for doing bringing on clients and doing the work? A few okay, that's good Um, I will admit, you know, I like I said, I've been doing this for four years as a freelancer My processes are probably not quite narrowed down as good as I'd like them to be Um, but I'm continuing to refine them and you can grow with that, you know Um, but I do for a number of things that I do repeatedly at least have checklists You know, so okay new clients coming on one send out the contract to send out the invoice three Set up the drop box or whatever, you know So that um, the client can put all the deliverables in there And it's amazing how fast you can go through that stuff when you've just got this checklist that you can go down every single time And um You know just execute, you know, and you won't forget a step You'll stay very consistent customers will know what to expect And you want to go through that process with your customers at the beginning. Oops So that they're clear, you know, how do you Develop or what how what is your process from start to finish for the entire project so that they know, okay I'm going to see some rough drafts after a week two And then I'll have A week to respond to those or whatever makes sense for your business, right, but then it's clear, you know Um, especially when you're working on larger projects You just might have a lot to do right in the beginning after you gather those requirements before you have something to show them And they might start going hello. What's going on? But if you're clear, you know, okay, this is going to take me a week or two to put the first revisions together You know, then they know what to expect and when Anyone else have thoughts on process or what works well for them and their processes all right Another important part is get the down payment Um, you know, don't be afraid to ask for money. I think a lot of times when you're starting out Um having conversations about money can feel really awkward um because you came from maybe A job at a company where you discussing salary was even kind of awkward always because you didn't talk about it much No one talked about what each other made but be confident in your rates and um, definitely get the down payment though because Or how many of you do get a down payment? I guess I should ask that. That's good. That's a bigger group. Yeah Because you know, you're investing your time and setting it aside So you want to make sure that you're going to be compensated for it um, and then have clear milestones, right when those additional payments are due so that um you Continue moving forward. I mean they expect you to deliver on the project. So um, it's only fair that they should be delivering with the payment as well And um, this is definitely one. I've learned the hard way myself. So Um, I've had clients where you know, we we had the milestone set where the next payment was due and you know Being the nice guy felt sorry for it. I'm like, okay, you know and believe them. Okay. Yeah, sure No problem. We can delay the payment as long as we do it by this day, you know And I deliver and then wait a year for the payment, right? So that's not a fun experience for anybody. So um Definitely have the confidence to stop the work if you need to stop the work to uh Receive the payment that you deserve Um, and then value yourself. I think that's another thing that a lot of freelancers Um, don't always do a good job at you know, your time and your expertise and your experience is worth Um, probably a lot more than you're thinking, you know, um Um If you're getting every job and every gig, you know, you probably Are not charged. Well, you're definitely not charging enough, right? Because You should have a healthy number of people go no, you know, I can't afford This project, but I would love to do it, you know, maybe in the future or something like that Some people should be saying no, right? Um, because You can go to go daddy, right and create a website on their website builder or go to square space and create a Squarespace site, but really, you know, what you are providing is that knowledge and expertise Of how to do it properly um And that that is valuable Um, be sure. Yeah For square space, right, so they go ahead and go there. Then they come back to me and say We can't figure this out. Can you go in our wicks website and make it look okay? And then that's double the price That I would have originally Right, right and it may not even be possible to do some of the things you need to do because those tools are basic, you know and they may be fine depending on your need, right, but Yeah, I've had that experience as well. I quoted out a large project for a client And um, they went with another Um provider and I was like sure no problem. No big deal. I was thanks for your opportunity to quote it. It was fun and um a year later they came back to me they still hadn't launched or gotten the project off the ground and We came in recovered the project and so they paid me about what I had quoted originally Plus they paid the other provider all of the work that they did so it was double to your point, you know um But yeah, you know, but definitely stick to your value, you know, I also had a lot of times people will say, well But my budget's only this, you know, they'll say it's like 30 less of what you gave the proposal for And can't you just meet that price and no, you don't want to do that because now people are dictating to you You're worth, you know, oh, yeah Exactly. Yeah, how can we modify the scope of this project to fit within your budget? You know, you can usually find common ground in your experience, you know, you can usually find common ground with that, right? You know by removing maybe service x or Yeah, you know, they'll get a different solution, but you know But yeah, you do have to stick to your guns, that's for sure, especially when you're starting out It could you know, you you just want the job so bad, right? Because you want to get established and get started. Yeah Mm-hmm Right, exactly, you know You are So and I don't I only got two people yelling at me You're probably spending less time too, right? Yeah Or they want me to do the same price that I've been working for the client for Um, 10 years and they're probably here. My friends are here now. No if you wanted to Oh, you know that kind of thing, but I also have time wasters that call me like every couple months going Thinking I'm going to lower their price as I'm coming back. I start marking down on my sheet How much time I've talked to them So the first time if they do lock in and but well, they get a little bit So Yeah Absolutely, I mean at the end of the day when you're a freelancer, it's your time is How you make money, right? And there's only so many hours in the day So you do have to be very protective of your time and your schedule And try to be as efficient as possible. And yeah, if there are those time wasters You know, you obviously want to be polite and respectful to them And yeah tracking your time that you spend with them is a great way to do that. You know, I've done that as well where Um, I mean I track all of my time. How many of you track your time? That's another good Okay, so yeah a lot of people do that. That's good. You know, it's great to look back on that and go Wow, I spent a lot of time on that project, you know, or Actually, that went better than I thought, you know, and you make a little more money or You could split the difference with the client if you want to but it doesn't hurt to make a little I mean you're providing the value really at the end of the day. So it's not usually just time for money, right? as well You know, you provide this logo that goes on for the next 20 years to Be the representation of that brand, you know, it's probably worth more than 50 bucks, you know, so Definitely. Yeah value your time Another thing too is the promise of future work Um, I've had that come up a few times where people will say well If you could just do this for free for me here quick or do it less I'm going to redo the whole website in another couple of months. I promise and I'll use you, you know Um, that's a trap. I think people have fallen to You know, and if they really value you and your skills and experience You know, you got to do that work all of it for what it's worth, you know, not just stuff later And don't be afraid to say no No, oh, that's fine. Okay. Um, don't be afraid to say no, you know, if a client is not a right fit It's okay. You know, let them move on. It's better to um Figure that out early than later But at any point in the process if you figure out, you know, this is just not working Have that conversation with the client and Move on. I think everyone will be happier for it. You know early on when I started Um, I had a potential client and this is probably where I did everything wrong So, uh, but it was a great learning experience, you know Um, but you know, we spent a lot of time up front talking and talking and planning and planning and they were asking me a lot of questions And I was sharing a lot of knowledge that really probably should have been consulting time looking back at it now Um, only to find out, you know, we finally got to the point of Getting started on the work and I said, okay, let's do the down payment here. It was a really small project even um, and they said well The changes that were made that you're going to be making are needed so that we can do our Big event and make the money and I'm like, well, no, you know at that point I was like, all right Sorry, I can't do this, you know, you've got to make the down payment Before I do the work But and I invested way too much time in that early on so Yeah, don't be afraid to say no, it wasn't fun, but you know, you got to protect yourself to be in with So, yeah, I think those were kind of the main Points I had, you know, I think happy clients. Oops not moving forward There we go Happy clients are good clients, you know, and they give you energy and excitement And um, also referrals, which are great, you know, I've gotten a lot of Really quality clients from referrals um And yeah, so Thank you. Um questions Yeah Yes Sure Yeah Yeah Yeah, yeah, that's a good point Sure, sure, sure Um, yeah, that is a good point and setting expectations is hard, you know Especially when everyone is in a different mindset frame of mind technical level experience level Um, but setting expectations is really important Um, I think some of the ways I set expectations is You know, having just deep deep conversations one Um, clearly defining what's going to be involved in the work I actually probably go a little on this overboard side of that sometimes, but um, I think that Time invested is worth it, you know, uh, I guess we develop custom software So if we were doing a small website, I may not take it quite so far But with the software we develop We do an entire like requirements document, you know, we'll do mock-ups. We'll do Um, this is how the user interacts with this screen. This is the outcome. They want to experience this as input You know, we really get it nailed down Um, and we do often charge for that But at that point they have a plan that they can take with them To any other development company or any other developer And at that point it's mainly just execution, you know, a lot of those requirements and planning is gathered, but Um, yeah expectations can be hard Um, anyone else have any ways that they better set expectations? Yeah, go ahead. Um, so I work for a company that has software that we provide as a service But we also have a process where our clients can come and request features and When we create a contract we make sure To include all of the different things that will be included with what we're providing And a lot of times depending on client needs or wants or desires They think that there's something included in that contract that isn't So what we do at that point is just get into a discussion on why that isn't included and how much more it would cost To implement that and a lot of times at that point the answer on their side will be no Well, like I thought this was included, but I don't want that but it really helps to just go through and detail Exactly why or why not like something isn't included in that contract that you Like the biggest thing that we do I think is educate and give information and once people have the information even if they're not happy with it They end up happier as a whole Absolutely. Yeah, you know and I do a very similar thing where yeah, if that comes up, you know, it's like, oh, I thought x was included You know, we sit down. I mean a lot of it is just pure communication, right and Communication is hard. It doesn't seem like it should be but Um, it is hard, right and picking up the phone or sitting down in person Um, is a very key, you know to making that communication happen. But yeah, I as well, you know, when I get Um, a question about oh, I thought this would be included You know, we sit down and review and talk about why it's not You know, I think I use the analogy a lot of If you're building a house and you want a three bedroom house with Average appliances, you know middle of the range, you know, that's great If you went back to the builder then and said, oh, I want a home theater in the basement, right? That's going to be obviously more Uh of a cost and I think that non-technical Description kind of helps people think that through but um, yeah, that can be hard But yeah, good point Okay, what one phrase to keep in your head, especially where Darny has a freelancer or anything is the phrase scope creep. Yeah scope creep That is like your biggest thing and I can I have to use the analogy especially since I did my contracts for bands You read some of my writers, you know, and then this is the thing everybody's laughs about Uh, you know that van Halen said they own no green M&M That was a test because a lot of people don't read the contract And if I got backstage and there were green M&M's, I know they didn't read the contract And it comes down to towels. I want black towels. They get backstage. There's white towels. I know they didn't read it But the people that do read it, they'll call me and they'll say, do you really need black towels? I'll go, no, we don't I said Any towels are fine. I'm just happy to get towel But also being clear What will be provided because if you read the one writer for one client if you wrote on the contract, you said Airport transportation, what would that mean to you pick your client up at the airport Bring him to the hotel bring him to the venue, you know reverse Had a client that only thought I had to do it one way This just left us at the at the venue. How do we get back to our hotel? And then another one, I'll even say a local venue to hear a huge festival on the waterfront Said we got done on one of the main stages and said, oh well I said, how do we get our equipment back to the van that's a mile away in the parking lot? And they said, oh, we can just walk He was like, no Not gonna happen. So now our contract says Con-transportation from the airport to the hotel and back and return, you know, I have to spell it out You have to spell it out because some people just do not Or we'll take advantage of that. You didn't say I had to bring you back Yeah, I think, you know for me too as Once I'm finally at the point of a final agreement here by this point We have talked through this project so many times. It feels like I'm a broken record just repeating myself And I know when I'm talking with customers, they're like, yep, yep, that's it. Yeah, you know, like we all got it now You know, because We've probably talked to through each piece three or four times And it's really clear, you know, sometimes I'll put together a powerpoint that goes through it all and we go through that I always put together like a written Document that we go through To go through that but um, yeah, does that help at all with expectations? Okay, sure So as kind of a new freelancer, I've always been a lot of my work for other businesses One of the things that I'm finding and learning from my mistakes is that Getting content from certain clients is health, to be honest. Yeah Right now I've got a project that's been going on about six months But it's a contract where it's not one of my freelance clients is through a contractor So I am kind of stuck with it, which is how I'm learning Um, but what would you I'm putting in my new contracts that there's going to be a deadline to get me content Or I'm canceling your project you can keep in the deposit for the work I've done Because there's there's no point in me continuing to turn down other clients at that point But what is a reasonable expectation for that time frame to get content? How long should you wait once you're stopped and can't do anymore before you say forget about that Sure, sure, you know what I've probably never Said completely like forget it. I'm done But what I do and maybe others do something different here Um, is maybe that content finally does show up It's not a stop everything and put that content in right it say Okay, you know at this point I've Been filling in my schedule with other projects and keeping my work moving forward. So I'm happy to work it in But it's not going to be until Whatever, you know, I mean when you have the the next availability. I mean you don't want to blow them off or push them off for Well, you didn't get it to me for six months. So I'm not going to do it for you for six months, you know, but Um, but I would do it at your when you can reasonably do it, you know And I I would you know say to them upfront too early on, you know If content doesn't come back, we will have to shuffle around the schedule and we'll get you in when we can And then when the delays start happening make that clear too, you know, and um pick up the phone and make a call and send an email right because Um, oh, okay Yeah Okay, as long as you're charging for it, that's great. Otherwise I would bow out of those meetings until You know, they're ready to have productive conversation again, right, you know, but yeah, but yeah I mean you but I don't know. I guess use your best judgment as far as Deciding, you know, this is not working. I mean with the client that like I was talking about earlier I just knew and my gut that okay. It's just time to call it quits, right? And if you feel like it's time to call it quits and you're not sure it probably is right, you know um Your guts usually probably a lot better than you think and um Yeah, anyone else have thoughts on that? Any other questions? Yeah Um, I do a little bit for free in the beginning, but Because I've run into where I've Had a meeting with some hundred times a client And we talked for a couple hours about their website and everything and I give them a couple ideas And they go with someone else, but yeah, yeah, and so You know, that's wasted two hours of my time or more. Yeah So that's why I'm asking if you charge for that for a community. That's tricky, you know I usually give a couple hours for free or at least an hour for free Um Depending it depends. I think on how well I know of this client Um, because I want to build trust and I want to build because there's so much bad reputation out there with freelancers as well You know, I mean, I'm sure you've all Talked to people who've had horror stories with the freelancer or someone, you know, I mean, especially the website world like I almost feel like every week I hear someone's like, oh my developer or designer or whoever was terrible and um, they probably weren't it was probably more of an expectations and uh, you know communication problem, but um Yeah, so I like to build that trust So I usually give a little time in the beginning, but I just have to be sure not to be giving away too much, right? um and Recurring customers. I really don't then it's pretty much all available, you know or included because we have that trust at that point Yeah, anyone else have thoughts on that? Yeah, sure. Sure. So keeping them happy. I think, you know, clear communication delivering what they're looking for And uh, I mean there's many ways really, um, but I think clear communication is a big part of it You know, as long as they're knowing what to expect Um, and they're liking the outcome that you're providing They're generally happy. I mean, I don't think it's too hard to keep people happy, you know, um Pick I think picking up the phone and just talking to them is you know, a lot of people love email and email is great, but Um, or if they're nearby get together in person, you know, because that just You know how it is I mean, it's much easier to build a trust and rapport and communication with someone in person around the phone. Then Yeah, I think creative billing is a was a great way just to judge What kind of client you have and this client kind of wants invoicing done this way in this client So don't have a one rule fits all but I'm one of the things that I Probably shouldn't do but I do. Um, I work for an agency and my the way I handle the few clients that I have I do What I found a lot of them don't like is this Attorney kind of billing system where every time you touch base with them. They're thinking they're going to get charged So the kind of thing where the way I handle them is like I'll do all your text updates. I'll do all your link changes I'll do all your image changes and then when something major comes along they remember I remind them stuff to remind them but remember all that other stuff I did I didn't charge you for that but I'm a charge you for this and this is the real price to that So that's just one of my personal thing My boss can't know I do it that way, but it's The rapport that I've now got with the ones that I deal with and their best friend That night when they just need help to do something really quick, I'll do that I won't nail them for that and then when something big comes along they trust that I'm making But actually Amy that's a lot bigger than all those other changes that you make and this is why this is happening But that's not that works with one. They tease me in the office because I have English charm. I'm just Charming or whatever and I just take that safe. But um That's what I found works for me. It's just um, just get a little bit creative and Know when to charge and when not to charge That's a good point. Yeah, that elderly billings Feel like the meter is always running for everyone on call and they don't call then and then yeah Phone me the moment you get frustrated phone me because I don't want you getting negative on this Into this situation. I'll do it if it's going to keep the peace, you know, then That's uh, you know, I think you'll have certain ones that uh, They'll keep doing that but then that's Marybeth's job here is like this can't this We can see that this client is always calling us. Are they good clients or not? We rate those clients We have a rating system one through five and if it's a one client we deal with them straight away If it's a five client, you go on the back burner. So it's we're an agency So it's slightly different than free that's in but we can pick and choose that so definitely internally you can do that also just Great your clients and then handle your customer care on that rating and don't break that rule Yeah, and I think it's little things too like send them a thank you card when you complete a project, um You know if they're struggling with something and it'll take you 10 minutes Help them, right? You don't provide them with more value than they feel like they're paying you, you know And a lot of those little things I think can really kind of put it over the edge Um, one of the clients of mine who does this significant amount of business with me every month Um had a hard drive die and they just shipped to me to see if I could recover the data I don't know much about it, but I used to do that I'm not charging them for it because I don't know if I could even do it or not But I'll spend an hour or two on it, right? But they'll be so thrilled if I get that data off, you know, so um Yeah, you know, I think it's the the level of the client there that comes into that as well But you know the little things that you can do to just help them if they got a quick question answer it, you know Don't get desperate. I think that's what I'm talking about desperate That's when you stop making silly rash decisions on this whole thing. This is like for sure Yeah, I was just going to add on the question regarding like that initial meeting um I think thinking that meeting is a marketing meeting You're going in you're selling your services. You're selling what you can do for them But it's not a design meeting. It's not a like If you want like in-depth consultation if they want you to start laying out things You know, give them a little bit to tease them. Maybe like hey, here's like what I've done Or oh, you know, I've got some really great ideas But don't you know, don't don't give away Absolutely Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's definitely A good point, you know, yeah, you want to maybe show them that you can you're up to the task, right? But yeah, you don't want to give it away It helps if you set a time limit on that first meeting too And you know as far as like, hey, I've got booked from you know, I can fit you in from to the free and Give that expectation that you're not going to sit in there with them all afternoon So you have an easy out. I mean if you want to keep going great, like You know, if they're putting money on the table great sits out and keep going but if it's like You know, they're trying to push you for more. Oh You can always say sorry, it's time for my next appointment or my next call, you know I mean, they don't know, right? And you can even offer like if they are, you know, wanted a design like But maybe not development like you can talk about that you can talk about selling design You can price it out accordingly. It's a nice thing about when you do work for yourself is you can set it up Whatever makes sense It is yeah, very good point um, any other questions thoughts The number one thing that's gotten you through the last five years or 20 years All right Well, thank you so much and I will be at the happiness bar if anyone right, that's what it's called. I think yeah, okay