 Well, we're going to jump right in to the session, get to know some of these amazing songwriters. I'm going to ask them some questions, and then we're going to open up for you to ask questions, because you have them, right? You have questions about songwriting. You do. Yes, you do. You totally do. So this is an open place for that. As you're listening, getting to know, be thinking, write it down. Awesome. So what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to have each person up here introduce themselves and share with us where they serve, and maybe just a little snippet about their heart for songwriting and their love for Jesus. Hey, everybody. My name is Vincent Bones. I'm from South Africa. Just moved here about two years ago. I serve at Stones Church in the northern side of Kalamazoo. I think songwriting is really, really important for me. I see it this way. It's almost like having a sacrifice on the altar, and God doesn't come down on the empty altar. So songwriting is there for me. So you have to put some stuff in you so that God can use it. That means word. So for me, it's closely impossible to write songs if you don't have any word in you. So that's what it's about. My name is Oscar Gamboa, and I'm from Dallas, Texas. And I'm an amazing piano player. And I wrote the hit song, Move Your Heart. Probably three or four other massive bangers, and a pretty successful writer. Thanks, Caleb. I wrote Reckless Love. So I'm living in Kalamazoo somehow. I'm Caleb Culver. I'm worship prayer pastor here, and huge passion for songwriter. I am a songwriter, and I really see building a songwriting culture here as one of the most important things I do. And I shared a little bit this morning on Isaiah 42, but singing the new song that reaches the ends of the earth. And I see it. That's my part, even in obviously, I'm fulfilling the Great Commission in evangelizing. But also, when I hear that there's a nation that the Gospels never reach them in that tongue, I also think, man, that's a language that nobody's ever written a worship song in. Jesus hasn't been glorified in. And so that's my passion for writing and songwriting. My name's Oscar Willup Room in Dallas. My big passion with songwriting is I believe that songs and messages are to one. Before I knew about Bill Johnson and Bethel, I knew about Bethel music. So it's like worship always goes first, and it carries a message. So for me, I love, that's what happened with our house. You knew about Upper Room for you knew about the culture at Upper Room. And I love houses that carry that. And just having that intention that songwriters carry it first with the pastor, with the local church, and it's for the Lord, and it creates right theology about God through song and through music. I'm Rachel Culver, and I serve here at Radiant Church in Kalamazoo. And I am more recently passionate about songwriting. And I have just been hit with, I shared this in my breakout, but I get to share it again. I have been hit with the truth that when God does a new thing, it's time for the people of God to sing a new song. And so we need songwriters in the church that care about songwriting and are recognizing and being prophetic and seeing that, wow, God is doing a new thing. It's time to help give the church this language to sing what they've been experiencing and to when God does a new thing, when he breaks through in this moment, when COVID happens and we all are dealing with hopelessness and whatever, we need songs that declare hope. We need songs that are declaring the truth. When God does a new thing, we need to sing a new song. And so as songwriters, it's important to have these new songs coming out. And the old songs are great. We'll always go back to them, but it's time to write some new songs. I love that. With the, we're just gonna chat about this, but with the focus of even this conference being prayer, such a focus on prayer and the importance of prayer, I'd love to hear from you guys how your times in prayer, corporately, privately impacts your songwriting, the language, even the word, how that kind of comes up out of that. So just free for all, anybody that wants to go first. With prayer, someone told me once, like the way a song is translated is the way it's birth. So if it's birth from a place of prayer, it's gonna be translated with that same essence of relationship and presence. So a lot of our songs, for me personally, is like I'm there on the piano, I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I don't have the greatest voice, but I can be like, I think you could kind of sink through it, get some melodies. But it's until I feel God's presence, I'm like, okay, there's something here. You know what I mean? Then I pocket it, steward it well, have it, you know, like my voice memos are deep with ideas, terrible ideas, great ideas, you know? And it's just a matter of like, I'm not a person that's in a hurry of releasing songs or like trying to get them out. I'm just like, I just try to be obedient to the Holy Spirit. It's like, hey, there's a song that, there's songs for today, there's songs for tomorrow. And I just try to be prayerful. I'm like, I feel like this is for today. We gotta, you know, you gotta like, or like, hey, just keep this for another time. I just, that's the way I work with, but I love to cultivate at home or even prayer sets. Like I think about, we did an album, Love Note. A lot of those melodies was from prayer set, you know? A lot of it was birth from there, just kind of wrote some more stuff outside of it. Okay, so I think just starting with a prayer life, it's really crucial. Well, your individual prayer life and a corporate prayer life, those two things are really important because there's some ideas that comes through an individual prayer life and some stuff you pick up in a corporate prayer situation. So I think I was sharing with Caleb, I've been having this X chapter two for the past two months and I was, I almost fell out of my seat when I heard, you know, the preacher was preaching with X2 because it's been something that's been on my spirit just in regards to Pentecost because it's not something that is preached about a lot lately, you know, after it happened. So just to realize that, you know, you can have Pentecost every day because the Holy Spirit is within you. So it's not an event anymore. It's something that is part of your life. So I think personal prayer is really important. It's easy for people to detect whether you are empty or not. One thing you cannot do is fool people. You can do all the jumps or the backflips through your vocals but if there's nothing in you, people can tell. So I'm always aware above what God has given me that I should have something in me because otherwise I'll be just making noise. That's it. I love that. I was thinking too, in the prayer set, is there a song that you guys can think of maybe that we know right now that might be more common? People maybe know more about it that started in the prayer room that you can think of off the top of your head. I didn't write the song, but surrounded it came from prayer set. This half of my battle, I was in the prayer room. It was me, Joel, my brother, and that's it. And then Elisa was on stage. There's a Jim Bae. They're reading through Elijah, I think it's a passage, but whenever the Lord opened up his eyes and saw the angels from heaven when they were surrounded by their enemies and then she started saying, it may look like I'm surrounded by you, but there was so much faith. I was like, oh my gosh, it's so powerful. But then that was it and Elisa just wrote it and I was like, but it came from the place of prayer. It came from scripture and it came from a true, true place. And with that too, I'm so curious. I'm learning as well here, but that course comes to her in a place of prayer and she leaves that set and she's just singing that on her own. Lord's still speaking to her. Next steps for her, we'll dip and dive in between practical and spiritual here. So what happened was that was just in a, so his brother was prayer leading at the time. And then during the season at upper room that we just experienced revival, the Lord was present. And then Miller was preaching with the blood. He's like, yeah, if the blood can speak, the blood can sing. He goes to Elisa, sing with the blood speaking right now. And then his brother texted him saying, hey, this is how I fought my battles. Elisa looks at me and just turn off the click. She starts singing the song. And that's the moment that you see like the spontaneous moment. It was a already written song from a place of prayer in her Monday, 12th of noon set. And then she felt led to sing it during a place of corporate prayer. And I was like, it was really, really powerful. And I mean, it's, it was from the Lord for a hundred percent. And then practically she, it was funny because then she sent out a group text and it's like, hey, I got this song. Is anyone gonna write it? I was in the group text. No one responded. So she ended up writing herself. No talk, hey, talk about that. The power of following up on text messages right there. How about that though? Leave your read receipts on, read receipts on. The follow up, and then she wrote it. I really believe it was her heart. You know, I believe in a songwriting session like if I'm not supposed to be there, I'm not supposed to be there. If I'm supposed to be there, I'm supposed to be there. I don't live in regret. I was like, gosh, I should have texted it. I should have, could have. That world is a bad world to live in. But yeah, it's like, it was her song that was meant to be and she wrote it from start to finish. Wow. Yeah, and even, I love that part of the story. I hadn't heard that before, but just that she stuck with it. I think so often songwriters, too, want to share, bring people in on co-writing and then you present, like, hey, here's my song. So I've been working on this chorus and it's like crickets. And then you kind of get into a place of like, maybe it's crap. Maybe that's bad. Maybe that didn't work out. And so, can any of you speak into that, too? Like, your experience with that more? Yeah. I think for me, I think the first thing, is to just to admit to yourself that not everybody's gonna like your ideas. Maybe at first. Well, one thing I believe, sometimes, some ideas catch us up with people. So you gotta believe in that idea enough to carry it. You can't just stop because, you know, somebody's not catching it yet. Maybe they'll catch it later. But you need to work it if they're not willing to work it at that moment. That's what I've experienced. Like most of the stuff that I've written, people will say, okay, you know, just listen to it and then let's kind of a blue tick you. But then I, like, if I have an idea of me, I can't sleep. That's, well, I'm a person, well, I sleep late anyway. So I'll work on it. Yeah, I sleep like two every morning. So I'll work on it until it's a full idea. And most of the time, people that you wanted to work with, when they hear the full thing that you were hearing the first time, they jump on the idea. So you gotta believe in your idea and don't rely on somebody else believing on that idea for you, because that's gonna discourage you quicker. Yeah, a couple thoughts on that. I mean, I think you have to start with the why anyway. And I feel like my, what changed in my songwriting was my why I felt like really shifted from wanting to write great songs or wanting to write great songs to people. And honestly, I don't think this is bad, wanting to write songs for the body of Christ. And I had to learn just internally of like, it becomes weird whenever your goal is for other people to hear and or sing that song. If that becomes, those things aren't bad in and of themselves, but if it's the why, then it will put a world of pressure on you and you will have so much disappointment when other people don't receive it or accept it. And when the why just shifts to, this is my own, this is my offering to the Lord. And he sees as a success, if I do it with all my heart to the best of my ability and complete the thing he's given me, then I have a freedom and it's like, man, it's cool if it speaks to somebody else and if it doesn't, you know, cool. Like that, that why to me helps me because I felt like for a long time I'd get an idea and I'm like, oh man, I need to turn this into like a corporate worship song. And so I have all these like boundaries of like, okay, I can't sing this, I don't want to do this and whatever because I'm thinking of that first. And no, I believe a couple of things. I mean, one, I think the songs themselves want to be written and they have a, there's just something that the song needs to say and a lot of times like I separate praise and worship music and we call it, because in my mind anything that brings glory to the Lord is worship music. And so if it glorifies him, it is worship. But then praise, an expression of praise in the corporate body and that's what we typically think of when we talk of worship. And so three to probably, I write probably five worship songs or non praise songs to every one praise song because those are all songs that I would try to fit into this corporate worship model and formula and try to jam it in there. And a lot of times it was like, this doesn't work. Like this is weird, like the Lord gave you this as a word, like he was speaking to you. And so just write it as it is. And if the goal is just worship and just to offer it to him, you know, and that's, you know, I just have, you know, probably a hundred songs that I've written that will never be recorded or never be sung corporately in worship. But it was like, I took that idea and I just tried to finish it. Like I just made a commitment, like an inner commitment. Like, hey, I'm gonna start finishing songs and I go through like my notes. And if I have ideas, whatever, I'll just finish it. And sometimes it's like, I know it's not even great or whatever, but it's like, I'll finish it and move on and I'm working the discipline of just being faithful and obedient to what I've been given and working that muscle. And to me, like the pressure's off when I start with a why of like, this is just worship to him. And it's like, I just have songs that are just my journal and it's just my walk with the Lord and it's sweet. And some of them maybe God wants to use and some don't, but it's not the goal. And so the pressure's off. So I'll just finish it without trying to, you know, it's like, oh no, I gotta find the perfect thing. And I felt like then, you know, I'd be quick to shoot down people's ideas on my songs because I'm like, no, it's gotta be this because I have some grand vision. And it's like, man, I just need to release that and give that to the Lord. And that actually gave me the freedom to finish a lot of songs. Like I got a lot better at finishing songs just when I like settled the why. So it's like, no, this is just my worship to the Lord. I'm just, I'm a songwriter. That's who the Lord created me to be. It's one of the primary things I do here because he, I love it. And it's part of my journey and it's my journals and intimacy with him. And beyond that, whatever. And that freedom has just helped me actually take those things from ideas to like finishing them for what they are and, you know. And then I have people like Oscar that always really helped me like, because I just want to get weird and whatever. And he's like, oh man, I like that. But what if we don't talk about like the dead people in this song and like, fine, Oscar. We won't talk about someone 10 and the dead body's piling up. So, no, but I do, I love your, Oscar is such a heart to serve the church. And he just has this heart and posture and has nothing to do with my point. But just wanted to shout you out for that. I really appreciate that. But I think that's a good segue too with co-writing and mutual submission. I've heard you talk on this before, Oscar, but I'd love for you to even share that. The upper room really carries this idea of mutual submission that's like a fire off phrase for me, I think about now you guys do that and what that really means and the value of what that means to you guys. For sure. I think with the songwriting session, you kind of know if you're leading it or not, you know. And if you don't know that, you're probably not leading it. No, you're not. You know, just letting you know. Yeah. It's better to be quiet and served than to have a friend who's, I just saw a funny story real quick. I mean, he's one of the best cello players I've met in my life. Incredible cello player, like best melodies in his wife. I think you might know him, like they play all the time. And he writes a little bit, he's like, oh man, I was going to a Nash floor right in Spanish. And I was like, just come whatever, like I don't know how many songs you're in, but it's a risk whatever, just come. But he wanted to write a fast song and every single writing session, he told the producer, give me a phone on the floor. You know, and I was like, I had to tell him I was like, hey man, just serve. Like, be aware that maybe it's better for you to come and serve, who's ever leading the right. So just being aware, just self-awareness is key, you know, because you want to, you know, like for me, like I kind of sense what the Lord's doing in a right. You know what I mean? I think a right, if we gather together for two hours and you just express your heart to each other to the Lord, but you didn't write a song, I'm like, that's still a successful right. You know, so there's not really an end goal, but for me, I'm like, man, someone's expressing what the Lord's doing in their heart, in their church, you know, they're really open, open up scripture. I'm like, I want to submit, mutually submit to what they're doing, because then I can receive and serve it well. And it's no longer, hey, I think, I think your melody is really bad, you know what I mean? Or maybe we should, because I remember, I was in this right, and again, I'm not gonna say any names, because I was in this right, and I was like, and it's like, we're there, some girl's like, I got this chorus, it's a great chorus, and I was trying to serve it, and then there's another guy's like, no, what about this, what about this? And then we ended up scratching everything three times. To the very end, she's like, I think I got this chorus again, and then the guy was like, yes, but we had five minutes and we couldn't do anything with it, you know? So it's just being really aware of like, how can I serve? And there'll be moments when you're leading it, and it's like, I really believe what you saw is what you read, you know, if you're, it's like, there's a moment when I'm like, I was really leading something, and it's like, people came and serve it, you know? So it's like, just being aware of it, it's like mutual submission, you're never gonna be the chief all the time, you know? Just being aware of it. The language there too, like, I always say like, who carries the burden of the song? And I try to respect that, and a lot of times it's, if someone's coming in with that burden, then my mindset is that now I'm serving and supporting that burden. And, you know, that was, that was what happened with Reckless Love. Corey had that phrase, oh, the overwhelming never-ending Reckless Love of God, got the melody in a dream, and he texted me that morning, he's like, dude, I had this dream, and because we had talked about that phrase, it's like, we should go right. And we came and we wrote pretty much the rest of the song, and I went in knowing, it was like, he's kind of taking lead on some of the ideas, because it's like, okay, you've had this phrase, the Lord gave you a long time, and now the Lord initiated with the melody, you're inviting me into this to help write it and shape it, I'm here to serve that. And I know, like sometimes it's, I know I have that burden, and I'm inviting people in to serve that, and yeah, I love the language. You're so, you're so smiley and nice, so it works so well too, when you're like, there's a leader in the room, and if you don't know who the leader is, it's not you. It's so amazing. But I think like in all things, like sometimes it's actually not helpful, like our idea of like this unity is like a leader-less thing, it's like, everybody's doing the exact same thing, and looks the same, and are the same, it's the world's idea of unity that's broken, because authority and serving, the way the kingdom works is, it comes through with the songwriting as well, and so like you said, having that awareness of like, I'm not here to try to get my name on something, or whatever, I'm just here to serve the burden. There's a burden called the word of the Lord that the song, or this chorus, or this phrase, or idea carries, and I'm serving it, or other people are helping serve, you know, what the Lord has given, and I honestly, I think that helps so much in that co-writing context. Two seconds. I think just to support that is what I basically based my experiences on is, it's the same burden that preachers have, preachers that do well is preachers that don't have the pressure to almost like watch the word, you know, being performed, preachers that preachers the word, and let the Holy Spirit do the work. So the same thing with songwriters, what makes you feel the pressure is because you want to take the responsibility of the impact of what you wrote. So you should, especially if you're writing from God's perspective, you should let God do that for you because we have that pressure that, because you love the melody, you want it to work in everybody's, you know, people must love it, but what's really key is you obey what God has given you and you let it go. So he can do, you know, God do much better with it than you. I love that open handedness. Have any of you in full vulnerability had a hard time ever in moments where you're like, I can't let go of this melody, but then after some time, never? Oh, I thought you were like, no. I'm an A on the Enneagram. And so I have a unhealthy obsession with needing and wanting to control everything in my life. And so, yeah, I mean, it's like such a long journey of me just like wanting to make songs work and force them. And because I do have a leadership gift to move things forward. And I do think like, you know, one of the things I'm, I love finishing songs and I can come in and take a song that's 50% and get it to the finish line. That's like one of my skills and I love doing that. But so often it's like, because the why was off, I'm just trying to force, force, force, force, force. And you just have to learn through the pain of disappointment and being like, man, like just failing so many times and right, it's so funny. Like, I mean, I've been on both sides of it. I've been on songs that I was like, man, I was like convinced. I was like, this song is gonna like blow up and be huge. And just like nothing. And I've written songs that I was like, oh yeah, whatever, I don't think that's a good song. And that the Lord put on the map way beyond what I could have imagined. And I'm just like, man, this is, I'm not as like wise and I'm not as smart as I realized. Like God just breathes on songs and messages and we are just the vessel. And I don't know why. And I'm just done figuring it out. And I'm just done caring too. Like I'm just, I'm not searching for that. It's like, I went from, and even just, if you talk about like, you know, who are we trying to serve? Like I've gone from a, okay, what song is gonna resonate with the globe? Like I just don't think that way anymore. I'm more of like, what's God doing in Kalamazoo? And how do I capture the sound of that and give language to the people that are in my community? Like, and it's like, hey, our music is now an overflow. It's like, if God wants to use that outside our context, awesome, but if not, that's fine. I'm just trying to say yes and give articulation to what God is doing. And, but that was a legit, to where I'm out of my heart, I mean, that's probably a legit like 10 to 15 year journey of just disappointment and trying to force things and disappointment and like some success. And then when the success happens, you realize you're disappointed because it doesn't fit, it's not that great. Like a song like Going Global does nothing to satisfy you. It doesn't make God any more impressed with you, doesn't change any aspect about your life, doesn't make you any more holy. It's just, he just decided to use something and you have to experience those disappointments to then realize like, oh yeah, like it's about worship and it's about the Lord. It's like, if someone had told me that, like you idiot people have told you that your whole life. And I love that quickly too. I'd love to talk on it just because we even touched on our prayer about how, you know, the Lord's coming for the reward of his suffering in our cities and our cities matter. And I think all of you guys carry that burden. The song is for my city. And I would love for you to speak on what the Lord has spoken to you about that specifically, like our city, where we're at and just share, just overflow your heart of what he's spoken to you and that burden, that calling, really. I thought I was gonna get away with the whole time and not sharing, I was nodding and doing all the things. Okay, so I, I'm not really gonna answer the question, but I, I, I, so, but I did wanna share, it kinda does. So in this building, there's a space that we call the upper room. And it was our prayer room for a long time before we moved our prayer room downtown. And Caleb and I were leading some prayer sets a few years ago. And I saw this picture over our city. So it's kind of about this. And I saw clouds that were over our city that were, that were not the like rain clouds of revival, but it was actually the like the clouds of heaviness and discouragement and of confusion. And I saw this picture out this tiny little window of that room. And I just saw the clouds dissipating. And I had that phrase and I had this picture. And we just began to kind of sing this chorus about the clouds dissipating. And for me, it was this vision of over our city, over the people in our city, over our church, these clouds of despair and clouds of confusion and clouds of hopelessness just being taken away in a moment and joy and love and the presence of God filling that space. And so I, to answer your question, like I don't even remember the question, but I felt led to say like in the place of prayer and in the place of songwriting and all of that having, you know, you guys are leaders. You guys are leading worship in your churches. You're, the Lord wants to give you language for your people. He wants to give you language for your city. And so I think so many times, you know, we're like, okay, we gotta like write a song. But like, I think we start with prayer and what, God, what are you saying in my city? What are you saying to my church? And trusting the Lord too that like this, he's speaking to you. You're one of the shepherds at your church. You're the worship pastor. You're the worship leader. You're the vocalist who's been showing up faithfully for five years and you're starting to get some phrases of what God is doing. And so sing those out in the place of prayer, in the place of worship, and then, you know, develop it from there. But that's just kind of a fun story. Yeah, I think for us like, I care about the messages that our house is carrying. You know, for a long time, like Mary Notha, the return of the Lord, it's been a theme in our home for a very long time. But also before that, it was like worship, worship, worship, worship, worship, you know, worship is about him, about him. So coming in as a songwriter, you're like, okay, like you wanna write songs. Not that there wasn't grace to write prophetic songs, but just what the culture had, you know, and I just, I submit to it. But when you, I think when you honor a prophet, you receive a prophet's reward. I think if you can honor the word of the house, you start to receive the burden of the house. Because for me, I was like, the return of the Lord, like I knew about it. I was like, I don't know, like it's a little scary. Like I kind of like to avoid it a little bit. I love Jesus, but, you know, revelation, you know. I'm being honest. But then I remember like during COVID, we were in a, we didn't really do like series, but we talked about revelation into like the first five chapters. And I was like, I was like, wow. I remember reading Revelation 19 about the marriage of the brothers and sisters. I was like, this is really powerful. I was like, and it's joyful and hopeful. I remember we're writing. I think like we're there. And I think it was, it was when we were all getting ready. It was me, Abby, and Naomi from Maverick. And I was like, I just, I kind of share my heart. I was like, I just feel like we've been writing. I've had, I never knew about the return of the Lord, but it's, I want to write a song about, it's like celebratory about the return. And I was like, what in, I was just saying that. And then I think Naomi finished up, like to be invited to the marriage of the Lamb, to come and worship Him. And I think the best songs are the songs that people can connect to with a burn, like you can join a message. And it's like, you don't know who wrote what, but you know, everyone contributed. You know, have you ever felt that before? You're like, it's like, who wrote what? You kind of have an idea, but it's like, it just kind of just kind of all came out. And it's like in 30 minutes, you're like, we're done. That's it. You know what I mean? But that's the most beautiful part. It's like being able to receive that within your little community and like being able to serve it at the same time, you also carry a personal message. You don't want to forsake that either. You know, it's like, the Lord has songs for you that are for you. I love what Cubs are just right for you as well, you know, because you're, it's like, yeah, I have a gifting, but it's also like, I have an expression that's the Lord wants to hear my song, wants to hear my melodies, you know? And it's like, a lot of people are just servants, you know, and they're great, but it's like, to those people, I can be that role, but the Lord's been, the last year is like, hey, you got something in you, it's just, you know, it's deeper. And it's like being able to, being able to like channel that correctly. Did I answer your question? Yeah, that's good. That's very good, that's awesome. Yeah, I was thinking to Caleb about new brain and like, I would love for you to share even just quickly that connection partially kind of alluded to it, even talking last night and connection to what you're saying, the word of the Lord, the house. And so... Yeah, I just have a conviction too of like, man, the pastor, the leader, I mean, he's kind of the chief worship leader. And so he's setting language. And so Lee and I will connect, you know, a couple of times a year and I'll just ask him, what do you feel like the Lord's saying and doing? What are the themes? And I'll write songs, you know, based on those themes. And so that, the pastor really told you all, like he got woken up with a dream and the Lord said, if there will be prayer in my house, do we praise in the streets? And so we just started praying that. And I was taking that in a different prayer meeting and Richard, who led this morning was singing. And I started praying the verses of new rain. You know, what's the melody of heaven's song? Like, Lord, if there's a scroll written over Kalamazoo, then what is on that scroll? And I'm like, what would it look like to be a city that's restored to what God's original purposes were? We were just praying into that. And Richard, you know, he just came up and he's like, oh, I wish Roy around that, right? I'm like, yeah, okay, man. But I mean, he was like, man, I feel the Lord on that. And so we sat down and we actually prayed. We were praying for the city. What are the things that the Lord's saying? And the song we wrote, you know, new rain, the song that came out of that, you know, was just a song of intercession for our city. And we wrote the first half of it too. And then I was in Ionia at a prophetic presbytery and I already had that melody for the bridge that I've been playing and singing that kind of came out in a similar revival, praying for a revival. And all of a sudden the Lord just kind of gave me language and articulation to kind of finish that. And then it was really cool to see because it's, you know, in our house it's been able to become this anthem and the people think of that reality of it being sticky. And people will sing and say that there's prayer in my house to be praised in the streets. And that's the thing in songwriting. I know that if Lee just shares that dream, just the reality is probably 30 people remember it and just let the rest move on. But if I can sing that as a song, it'll tattoo on people's hearts. It's like the language of David's life. The journal language of what we know about David we only know because of the songs he wrote. If he didn't write any songs, we wouldn't know the story of David without knowing the heart language. And it was the song that did that. And so that's why I think just when we're running songs as a house and for the house, like I'm like, man, we are modern day scribes. Our pastors are leading and then you had people, their job was to scribe what was happening so that it could be remembered so that they could read it in the towns. And so I think that the songwriter is where the modern day scribes of like, our pastors are leading and getting this language. And then we are taking that and put it into a form that everyone will be able to remember. And it's like, man, what a gift. And so, it's great too, because it's like, man, this song is, it's not even my revelation. I got to like draft off someone else and. So I'm kind of new in the city, but I think what's really proper for me to say is what God has been doing in my life in terms of, okay, let me start it this way. So I'm from a big city. I'm from Johannesburg, which is a big city. It's probably, let's say the size of Chicago. So years back, God told me to move to a small town in Durban, and it was a strange, strange instruction. He said, I must move to a small town because he's getting ready to put me in front of the whole country. That was the message. So I obeyed, I moved to a small town. I'm saying this for a reason. So I moved to a small town. From that small town, I won South African Idol's 2014, just following God's instruction. So same thing happened to me coming here. Well, it's just in my life, you know, everybody's got, God has a way of putting me in a city that seems small to me, but because of what happened the first time, I know something is coming out of Kalamazoo and I'm very sensitive to it. I'm really like right now, because we always speak, I know it. I can sense it every day that God is, whether you're from here or you, you know, coming from outside, God is just, it's like a pot. God is putting different ingredients together so that something comes out of Kalamazoo. So I'm really excited for it. That's awesome, come on. Thank you so much guys for that. I think I'd love to open up for Q&A really quickly. If you guys have any questions. Yeah, girl, I knew you were gonna be ready with a question. So how has your, what is your songwriting style? How has it changed over time? If it has changed over time? Yeah, I love just, I just enjoy writing in general. And so it's kind of like, I write for fun. It's not like everything is like some spiritual pressure that I put on myself for what I produce, whatever. And so because of that, like, whether that's silly songs with my daughter that we're kind of playing or like stupid parody jokes, whatever, like it's all kind of writing. And I think the only thing that's really shifted is just over time, I've just become freer in my writing where it's like, I'm not, you know, I don't have to put myself in a specific box of like, okay, this is my power alley or my style or whatever. Like my heart is for praise. And so that's really what I want to be able to write. But I try to write the feel based on what that prophetic theme is. Before I'd be like, I really like this style of music. Or I really think this music is really cool. And so I'm gonna try to write a song that sounds cool like that. And I feel like that's just kind of an immature way to view songwriting, not that it's bad to notice what makes you come alive. But to me, now I hear like maybe a genre or a way of singing a song. I'm like, well, that's not really my style. It's like, well, the song kind of like pulls it out or demands it, you know, like that, like we sung the song, Lion, you know, last night Vincent let us. And that's one of those songs. It's like, you kind of have to be Vincent to lead it. It's like, it's hard to be in like a 50 member church with an acoustic and just be like, whoa, just like, it's just like, it's a song. It's like, man, I don't think they were trying to write a genre. It's like they were just trying to release this roar and that song came out. It's like, and so I think I've just gotten looser and freer where I'll have some stuff and be like, man, that's kind of almost like a country song and other stuff too that like, okay, that more sounds like straight worship or another thing that might be pop. And it's just like it kind of, I just have gotten freer in that style and just kind of enjoyed. And I've just become less of a hater. Like I used to be like, I only like that kind of music. And I kind of like, man, I don't really, I think all genres, styles, whatever can be powerful and useful and I've tried to judge people less. And I like country music now. I like really like country music, which is weird. I used to make fun of it, but. That was a great question. Yes, yes. How do you start a culture of songwriting at your church? I think gathering some friends and writing just a space and time, you know, like one, creating space and time to write. I think like Joel's back there. Hello, everyone. He's back there. Hi, Joel. We write all the time, you know, but it's like he sends me a calendar invite right with Joel 215, 309, you know, like, I mean, it's like being intentional with that. I think if you have worship, if you're a worship pastor and you have worship leaders under you, like just creating songwriting, create space, you know, maybe once a quarter have a retreat where you go and pray and worship and write songs, you know, like being intentional with that. And as a worship, are you a worship pastor? Yeah, as a worship pastor, it's like, kind of crazy, you kind of, you lead the way, you know, culture is created by the way you lead. And then culture sustained by the way you speak the language that you put. So it's like, if you want to create a culture of songwriting, you need to start songwriting with your people and be very consistent. And no one shows up, it's only you still write. That's good. You know, that's the way you create culture. So it's like after some time you're like, in a year, you're like, oh wow, I don't have to be the one texting everyone. Like people are doing it, but it's like the initial grind of it, it's like you show up. If it create a time, create space, invite people, people will come, people will not maybe not come sometimes, but you show up every time. And then people are like, he really means this. And then you start to create that culture. I'm pretty disorganized so you get the wrong question. So practical steps for organizing all the things. A few practicals. One, I love the shared note on, well one, get an iPhone. Don't write on a droid, no one wants to write with you. And no one wants to hear what you have to say, including God, if you have a droid now, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, I was just kidding. Just made so many enemies. But on the shared note app, you can post the voice message at top, lyrics below it, and then share it so multiple people can see it and edit it. And that, you can do it on Google Docs or whatever. I just like the notes app because of accessibility, how easy it is to share. And for me, I want a recording of wherever we're at and then all the lyrics laid out. And whenever, I'll do song feedback for a lot of people. And I can listen to a song, give me feedback. And I tell them, I won't give you feedback until you put it on a note, put it at the top, write the lyrics below it so we can see it and edit it in sections. And to me, you have a song template, so to speak, where it's like, okay, this is the idea that we have for the verse or the verses. This is the flow or the pattern. That could be the rhyme scheme. That could be, okay, we do kind of four lines and then the chorus is four lines. And what I just call the verse template, which a lot of times goes in patterns of two, four or eight. And then once we kind of have that in place, well now we can kind of write a lot of stuff over it. A lot of times, most songs that I write, I probably write five or six different verses too. I'll actually write a lot of verses. And then we'll kind of start with a lot. I like throwing everything against the wall and then seeing what sticks. And so I just, truly, because I'd rather have a lot and then, okay, let's take away or let's simplify. Rather than trying to, I feel like a lot of times we try to stretch. Like we have like half of a good song but we try to stretch it to make to be like a full song. And you know, I live by the law of all killer, no filler in songwriting. Like don't put a filler line in there. If it doesn't need to be said, cut it out. Like you can't, you can't polish a turd. Like if you have another spiritual law, like we were like, well if this is gold and we just like, you know, polish up this other part that's a turd. It's like, no, no, let's just cut it all away and simplify it. So once we have that template, then it's like, okay, what are the themes? Perfetically, what's there? And you know, I'll have the app there and then, you know, I might have in my phone, I might use the thesaurus or I might, you know, look up a lot of times my, you know, my Bible app too where I'm cross referencing like crazy. Cause I'm like, once we find the theme, I'm like, all right, I want to pull like five or six scriptures up. And so a lot of times at the bottom of the song I'm writing, I have a bunch of scriptures, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And different ideas that I can pull from. And now when I share that note with somebody else and like, hey, what do you think? They're actually scrolling down and be like, dude, that scripture or man, right at the bottom you wrote this phrase. And I'm trying to think of an example of that. I have a few of those where it's like, hey, this phrase is awesome. Why isn't this in the song? Like, okay, cool. And so that person can now see, like I can share a note and in 10 seconds Oscar can hear what I'm thinking, singing. He can see the pattern. And then he has all of my kind of brain scramble thoughts beneath. And that to me has just kind of been the most helpful like practical system to like quickly capture and record. And so my notes and voice memos, there's just ideas everywhere. But I try to keep it in that system so that there's enough clarity to everyone can kind of jump in on. I don't know if anyone else has any of practical. That's a really good question. I mean, you have to find inspiration. You know, like, like for us, Bethel was a really big inspiration. Early on we started just like them. The way you learn to speak is by imitating, but you can't call it yours. I want to be really clear. Like when you imitate, don't call it yours. You're imitating, you're growing. But from there it starts to seep into stuff, you know? I think for ours sound like we use a lot of gospel breakdowns. We love the simple breakdown stuff. We do it all the time. But it's like, you just kind of end with prayer. We have prayer sets, which it's like, we have two hours to like, you know, to kind of experiment and grow. You know, we are a church that loves risk. So it's like, I might bring my synthesizer sometimes and it might stick, it might not stick, but when it sticks, it starts to see a development of a sound. So it's like, because for me, I love, I mean, I have kind of my fundamentals that I love to keep, but then like anything. Also like, there's no such thing as a, with production, because that's kind of the role we're talking about. There's no such thing as a wrong idea. My older brother played guitar, like, there's moments, I'm like, what is he doing? I'm like, what the heck? But he's still creative, but then you're like, next to you're like, oh, I've never heard it before. Sounds like nothing I've heard before. And I'm like, that's kind of what you need to do. So I took jazz lessons for a season. And he taught me like the A's and B's, the fundamentals of music. And at my last lesson, he's like, I want you to forget everything. I was like, what? I want you to forget everything. Cause he's like, you're going to sound like me. I was like, so same thing with music. Like if you feel like you're sounding like something else, or you feel like you're sounding like a whatever, it's like bringing a new element in, maybe sit down and just fumble. You know, you kind of like be intentional, but kind of like, you know, there's so many, there's so many melodies and parts and things that I've just fumbled my way into it. I just kept scrolling and like, oh, that's really cool. Let me add this, let me add this, let me add this. And then you're like, sounds different. Or I was like, oh, we want to, over here, what we usually do is we come down on a chorus, let's actually don't come down. Oh, we always thought it was a small verse. What if we just come in all the way in? You know what I mean? Like thinking that way. And then as you're going to fail, and you're going to be like, what the heck? That was so weird. But it's always better when you're like, wow, I don't know why that felt right. It's a journey. Maybe do two more questions. Yeah, go ahead, Jenny, right? Yes. How do you plan to map? I'll pull that song. I think you're talking about Look to You. It has kind of that big instrumental. And that was actually the song Rachel was talking about that started in the upper room. I was kind of playing the chorus melody line. Rachel sung over it. And then she just started declaring I can see the clouds dissipating and just kind of this prophetic declaration. And we played that in a prayer set. And Regan Cruz, who lived here for a number of years, awesome prophetic musician, just Rachel singing that. And he's a prophetic musician. And so he's like, I'm taking those spiritual things and I'm prophesying on my instrument. And he just came in and it was just like so clearly the Lord. And so that song like, it kind of has this front half focus almost. And then it leads up to this kind of prophetic declaration of the clouds dissipating, whatever. And so the song, we didn't think of like, okay, what's the catchiest way to arrange it? It's like, okay, here's the message of the song. And it's like the music prophesies of that. And then all of a sudden the lyrics give emphasis to it at the end. And so we really try to follow the prophetic themes over the what makes sense in a map. And I love the music that does that. And I think even the best artists, that's true. They're not thinking like, okay, to be pop radio, we got to get two lines for the verse. Don't bore us, get to the chorus. And then it's got to be under three minutes. And they have these formulas in mind. And I think it's true prophetic music, but all great music too. Like I think music has a feel. And depending on what that feel is, like codes and maps and the typicals, like you just have to break those rules. And so for like that song, it was just that prophetic musicianship that led it. I don't know if it would have worked if we're like, no, we should just have the music just like make something up. And it's like, we might have tried that and it wouldn't have worked when we go right to the bridge. But it was like we, that line, like Regan didn't write any chords or any lyrics or whatever. And so like Nashville would say like, okay, that's not a writer rates on our 50-50 split. Well, we gave Regan a third of the cut of the song. He didn't write a chord or a lyric, but we're like, man, that Melly line was like just as much of hard of the song. Like you're a writer on this song, bro. And as a way, cause I'm like, that music is just as important in kind of what it releases and what it does. And so follow those prophetic themes. And when you get in the studio in a range, don't choke the life out of it. Like where there's life on something, no, no, you work around that. Don't be like, oh, let's write something that fits. It's like, man, there's nothing worse than there's like a song live. There's so much life on it. And then you're like, I recorded the song and you hear it and it's just like, cause it's just flat. Like some producers that, yeah, I don't need to get in that note. I don't know if anyone else wants to say anything about that. I think it's really important to be aware of your rhythms because everyone has a structure, everyone has a way of it, right? I love to be in a room with people that think complete, the complete opposite of me. Like my brother Julian, again, he's like the opposite, we're like, he's more black, he's white, you know, it's like complete opposite. But like being really intentional, like with production and song mapping, any little detail can either make or break the song. Too long of a space or too short of a space can either make or break a song. It's like, I carry the fear of the Lord with song cause it's like everything kind of matters in the way you, I like, I like songs to feel like a composition instead of sections. So it's like, if I get a song and it's a really, really good song, I was like, but I feel sectioning. I was like, I was like, hey, is it cool if I help you write it a little bit? Or I'm aware of melodies, like people's ranges. You know, it's like, a lot of times people have to do it a song cause they wrote it cause the purchase is too high. You know, so it's like, I'm aware, it's like, if that's intentional, it's awesome, but if it's not and it feels a little off, let's rewrite it, you know? But being really intentional with that and also how many choruses you do, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, oh, I feel like we do it live, we do it live all the time, it's like, we gotta stay there a little longer. I'm like, okay, let's do two more choruses. You know, it's like, it's really long, we should probably move on. Okay, let's cut some. So just being aware, and I even write it down, I'm like, I have a little no problem with this. Here, let's do this, until you get it right. So it feels like a composition, fully. Just to add to that. I think, well, what I've experienced, I think every song has a life of its own. So it will kinda, if you're writing a song, it'll let you know. Like, for example, if you're writing a song and you're doing two or three choruses, it'll feel wrong to you. Well, to me, that, you know, you should just do two. Cause like, every song has a life of its own. So it'll let you know if you're taking the wrong direction in terms of where the song needs to go. It's like, well, I've written a couple of songs where it just felt good to do a verse, chorus, and a bridge. And it felt right. Try doing a second verse, and then, you know, it just tells you that, buddy, this is the wrong way. You need to go this way. So every song has its own life. So you have to pay attention to what the song is telling you. Jenny, can I say something to close this out? I think it's time's up, but I just, I just wanna, it is, right? Yeah, I just wanna end by encouraging you, cause you found yourself in a songwriting Q and A today, and you came because you were curious. You came because you're already a songwriter and you want some tips and tools. You came because you're a worship leader at your house and you want to form culture. There's a reason you came today, and I want to just encourage you. Like, we gave you some fun things that we know, but I think some of you in the room today need to hear that it's time to start writing. You've been thinking about it for a long time, and you've been considering it, what this could mean, and the turn signal for you as a person, or for your church, or for your culture, but I think it's time to start writing. It's time to do what's in your heart to do, and sometimes when we talk about something that we're gonna do, like, I'm gonna start working out. If you talk about it a lot, your body, like, chemically actually gives you the release of positive, like, I did it, and we didn't do it. And so we talk about songwriting a lot. It kind of makes us feel good, because we're like, ooh, we're talking about songwriting, but we don't do it. Like, it's time to start writing. Like, we talked about, like, time, it's time to make the time block. It's time to send the text to the friend that you've been considering writing with. It's time to start writing. We need songs from you. And so I just want to encourage you, and maybe just end, I'm just gonna pray over you. Can I pray over you just to end this really quick? Jesus, right now I just thank you for every individual in this room. God, I thank you for the churches represented here. I thank you for the songs. They're gonna come forth from the people in this room. And so Father, right now I just pray that you would open wide the door, God, that you would just even open wide, just even our yes, that we would say yes to this. Those that are called, Father, I ask that you would help us encourage us, God, but would we just begin the discipline of starting? God, help us start. We're just gonna do it. Let's just commit right now. We're gonna do it. We're gonna write a song. In Jesus' name, amen. Be blessed. Thank you so much. Thank you.